One level dip into Monk (Maneuver Master) and take Improved Dirty Trick.
Flurry of Maneuvers lets you Improved Dirty Trick first then attack. A successful Dirty Trick lets you blind removing opponents Dex bonus and opening them up to sneak attack. There are a variety of Dirty Tricks that are more roguish than just Improved Feint. Flurry of Maneuvers also lets high level rogues effectively full attack getting sneak on a all attacks.
IMHO the Rogue class should include this ability and Weapon Finesse in the base class.
cheers
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I win the thread!
Brute/Scout Half-Orc Rogue
TRADE ferocity for SACRED TATTOO
(Start with at least 18 STR)
Str 16+2 put at least 2 points in here at 4 and 8.
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (your 3rd bump at 12 here is good.)
Wis 11
Cha 7
Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)
There is another trait that let's you use INT for UMD Checks. Take that.
Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1 SA 1d6, Frightening, Intimidating Prowess
2 Weapon Training- Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3 Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Brutal Beating
4 Befuddling Strike, Scouts Charge
5 Power Attack, SA 3d6
6 Combat trick: Cornugon Smash
7 Blindfight, SA 4d6
8 Offensive Defence, Skirmisher
9 Shatter Defences, SA 5d6
10 Crippling Strike or bleeding Attack
11 Combat Expertise, SA 6d6
12 Fast Tumble
13 Moonlight Stalker, SA 7d6
14 Oppourtunist
15 Extra Rogue Talent: Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception), SA 8d6
16 Defensive Roll
17 Critical Focus, SA 9d6
18 Feat: Blinding Critical
19 Feat, SA 10d6
20 Talent, Master Strike
*Honorable Mention: Hide in plain sight. If your game is predominantly played in one dominant environment you must take this.
Why this rogue kicks ass!!!
Ok so this guy has a few things going for him.
1. He debuff the crap out of enemies. Between dropping shaken, sickened, flat-footed, befuddled and offensive defense he excels at making foes miss him, while he SA's their punk a$$. They are sucking -6 to Attack the rogue and -2 and no Dex to AC, -2 to saves. And they are trying to hit a foe with his SA dice added to his AC. You have to choose between Befuddling and Offensive defense but that's what Iterative attacks are for.
2. He SA's, all the time. Anytime he moves 10 feet or more. Sure there is flanking, but by level 9 he doesn't need one (Shatter Defences make demoralized foes flat-footed.) If he is moving less than 10 feet that means he is 5ft, stepping and SA full attacking a Shatter Defences target.
3. Damage. SA all the time plus high Str power attack. Plus Moonlight Stalker.
4. Reliable to hit. The daredevil boots, not sucking a twf penalty, Moonlight Stalker are a nice bunch of regular buffs the rogue can bring to his own fight.
How does he Scout and Live?
This guy Stealth like a normal Scout. Out front with no light source (Darkvision) as soon as you get spotted or you spot something, you use a Wand of Blur. (Grants concealment, turning on Moonlight Stalker!)
Choose if you wanna charge a lone foe with a SA Cornugon Smash (drops SA, Shaken, Sickened and Offensive Defence on the first hit)
Or Stealth back and warn the party.
You're Welcome.
Tark owes me a cookie for posting a full build that was all rogue and explained the mechanics.
Dim environment full of cover (such as an ally warren in a shantytown). Halfling rogue employs snipe-and-run tactics while enjoying superior low-light visibility. Human fighter never sees him, or if does, can't reach him before he darts around a corner out of sight again. If the fighter doesn't leave, he eventually runs out of hitpoints and dies.
Rogue's equipment: 0gp sling and a pocketful of rocks.
-- I learned this the hard way playing a APL-1 Intro-level Shieldlands (Living Greyhawk) module, which featured a broken encounter with four halfling rogue assassins in a cave full of stalagmites. The GM flat out told us that it was a badly-designed combat in which there was no way that any party had any chance in hell of avoiding a TPK unless the rogues were stupid and marched up into melee and let us maul them.
Which is then exactly what he had them do, the kind-hearted soul.
So all the rogue party needs is to be 3 CR higher than the party AND have the encounter significantly stacked in their favor, and for the encounter to take place at a low enough level that normal darkness is a significant problem?
Also, go read the post about why the high level rogue can't steal a chicken. Me thinks stealth was being greatly misused.
Also worth noting, as I mentioned before, that he's talking about an encounter in D&D, not Pathfinder. There are times when that makes a very big difference.
Your dpr if you get sneak attack for all your bow shots against the giant:
51.71If there are other people in combat, because you don't have precise shot, your dpr is 34.94.
Fun fact: with deadly aim on, your dpr actually goes DOWN : 50.14
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage(17 to 24 = 70%)
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.(1d8+ 8 = 12)
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.(5d6 + 10 + 5 bleed = 32,5)
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.(5%)
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3. (x3 = 2)
0.7(12+32,5) + 0.05*2*0.7*12 -> 3 atacks
26,25 + 0,84 = 27~ per attack
last attack with +12 to hit = 0.5(12+32,5) + 0.05*2*0.5*12
18,75 + 0,60 = 19~
27+ 27+ 27 + 19 = DPR 100
Fun fact: you don´know basic math
If you have to take levels in other classes you are telling me that the rogue does not work and is not a good class. That is if I am understanding this thread topic clearly, and that is "How to build a better rogue".
Nice idea's for multiclassing though.
If you have to take levels in other classes you are telling me that the rogue does not work and is not a good class. That is if I am understanding this thread topic clearly, and that is "How to build a better rogue".
Nice idea's for multiclassing though.
First the goal
Dipping is allowed but only like one or two levels the overall strength of the build should be founded on the rogue not a level of fighter or gunslinger.
As per the OP, I was contributing toward the first goal.
As this and many other threads show, rogues are relatively weak compared to every other class in Pathfinder.
cheers
FIRST> TARKXT, I often like your threads, so I am getting in on this one though I think it's a bit of a lost cause, mostly due to difference of opinion.
I really want to like the rogue, and I have played SO many over the years, in every edition.
There are options to help the Rogue in Pathfinder, sadly, a lot of them depend on on skill checks. These are unreliable depending on the enemies you face. Some enemies cannot be feinted, or intimidated, sometimes you can fai la skill check, etc.
Thus, I generally attempt to make a Rogue that relies on more consistent means of damage.
1.)The new ruling on SLA's allows for Rogues to use Minor Magic as a gateway to Arcane Strike: a great choice, since rogues rarely use swift actions otherwise, and as that it doesn't penalize your accuracy, it basically amounts to free damage.
2.) I believe (and regret to say) that a full BAB dip is required: preferably 4 levels of fighter for weapon specialization, and possibly Weapon Training via Weapon Master archetype. 2 levels of fighter or Ranger is also passable.
3.) the archetypes I use most are Scout and Swashbuckler. Scout, for obvious reasons. Swashbuckler, because it allows the ability grab the Combat Trick talent twice, and a combat feat is often worth more than a typical Rogue Talent. Since i usually dip a Full BAB class, the martial proficiency in one weapon isn't much of a draw.
4.) as has been shown SO MANY TIMES that i don't really feel I should even bother showing the numbers, a high STR two handed combat style is melee king in this game. A decent (14) DEX and CON is also in high demand. This is due to slighter lower AC and HD.
5.) Criticals are wasted on Rogues. You need a high BAB and great static damage to take advantage of criticals. Rogues generally have neither. Mine typically have better static damage, but not enough BAB to justify (or even allow) the feat investment.
6.) All of these things combine to either: A.) high damage, two handed melee weapon, or B.) decent damage reach weapon. For the first, Greatsword is common, for the second, Bardiche is king, barring an investment into Fauchard, typically via being a half elf. Since Rogues need feats, this is not an investment i make...
I like the reach weapon; a decent DEX, martial proficiency, and good feat and rogue talent choices make for a good reach weapon user.
Barring this; a dip into either wizard/witch/sorcerer or Cleric/Oracle... you wont be a combat Rogue, but at least you gain SOME utility.
If you have to take levels in other classes you are telling me that the rogue does not work and is not a good class. That is if I am understanding this thread topic clearly, and that is "How to build a better rogue".
Nice idea's for multiclassing though.
First the goal
Dipping is allowed but only like one or two levels the overall strength of the build should be founded on the rogue not a level of fighter or gunslinger.
As per the OP, I was contributing toward the first goal.
As this and many other threads show, rogues are relatively weak compared to every other class in Pathfinder.
cheers
I did not see that one or two class limit. I guess I have to rebuild mine later one.
last attack with +12 to hit = 0.5(12+32,5) + 0.05*2*0.5*12
+12 to hit vs. AC 24 (in your example) is not 50% hit rate.
Fun fact: you don' know basic mathApparently neither do you. Or spelling for that matter.
Why yes, people calling someone out for what they perceive as a mistake, then making a mistake during the "correction" is one of my pet peeves. Especially when they try and make the first person look stupid. Why do you ask?
Yes, me neither... that´s not the point, i just post a build.
People here is not worry about make their games better, it is all about a tendentious discuss.
The fact is the rogue class work in my game, and don´t work in the owner of the topic. Instead of help others, the majority comments try to prove things that is different in each of yours games.
The Rogue needs an actual role at levels 6+. Before we have that design goal nailed down, we have nothing. Every low-fantasy concept is inherently a low-level concept as well, and the Rogue as written is pretty low fantasy.
Take the Avengers movie for example, the Battle of New York. The Rogue we have is Hawkeye or Black Widow. If you want high-level Rogues, they need to be Mystique, Nightcrawler, Psylocke or well, Rogue. And they need those abilities to be inherent to their character class.
I'm going to post a build I've always wanted to try, and we'll see how it goes. Yes it multi-classes, but barely enough to be a blip on the radar, and I think it plays like a Rogue throughout.
20 point buy
level 12
Halfling Master of Many Styles Monk 2/Rogue 10(I don't think an archetype would make this any better)
Traits: Reactionary (Does any Rogue player NOT take this?)
Master of the Sudden Strike
Str 12
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 9
Monk 1: Crane Style, Stunning Fist, Cautious Fighter, Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Crane Wing
Rogue 1: Weapon Finesse
Rogue 2: Combat Trick: (Martial Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar)
Rogue 3: Dervish Dance
Rogue 4: Befuddling Strike
Rogue 5: Uncanny Defense
Rogue 6: Weapon Training: Scimitar
Rogue 7: Outflank
Rogue 8: Positioning Attack
Rogue 9: Blundering Defense
Rogue 10: Opportunist
Important equipment: Scimitar, Monk's Robes, anything that helps stealth or perception, or your saves or AC (including boosts to Wisdom and Dex)
Important skills: Stealth, Perception, Perform: Dance (only need the 2 ranks), Acrobatics, the rest are up to you
Speaking of Saves (Without extra equipment)
Fort: +9
Ref: +16
Will: +9 (+11 vs Fear)
AC: 17 without equipment, +5 Dodge Bonus when fighting defensively or taking total defense (which you should be doing always) for a typical naked AC of 22, FFAC of 22 or 10(Uncanny Dodge) Touch AC of, you guessed it, 22. Monk's Robes raise those all up by +1, and if you're completely naked you're doing it wrong anyway.
This turned out to be a more defensive build than I originally anticipated as I started writing this, but its one I'd personally love to play. Moving things around so that Two Weapon Fighting can be achieved and you can mix Scimitar and kicks might be fun too, but I'm not sure where I'd place it yet. Also would like to include Improved Initiative, but perhaps a +7 is enough until a spot opens.
EDIT: Changed saves, having forgotten about Halfling save bonuses.
But that doesn't mean the rogue can't contribute if you stop trying to protect his niche within the party. A bard will push a rogue into an effective accuracy band and once you have the whole party dedicated to stealth the rogue becomes one of the best damage dealers rather than the worst as several of the usual top damage classes are poorly suited to stealth.
Once you work with a bard being instead of trying to compete sneak attack becomes a big deal and I'd guess that past level 5 knifemaster is better than vivisectionist at sneak attacking.
Yes.
Even Goblins know how use rogues. Lots of them, in the dark, support by a few warchanter bards. Raid. Hurt. Loot. Run away.
Do Goblins say "Ooh, put rogue with fighter and cleric explore tomb?" No. Goblins smarter.
I don't know if you guys will like this, but I like the idea of a rogue brute. Fighter lvl1 for the proficiencies (you will want medium maybe heavy armor to offset a lower dex) favor strength. Get exotic weapon prof bastard sword. wield a large bastard sword -2 2d8, the -2 hurts, but we will never use iterative attacks so it won't always hurt.
No power attack, that's not how we do damage, and we can't afford the accuracy. Get impact put on the blade 3d8, drink a potion of enlarge person 4d8, get vital strike and improved vital strike when they become available 8d8, 12d8.
your move action should be to feint to get those sneak attacks for extra damage, or to get into range. Use your rogue talents to give your sneaks nasty side effects like bleed, or str damage.
If you start with human (typical rogue) you have 3 feats and only need one. (exotic weapon prof bastard sword) use the others for toughness and make the human bonus skill focus to help your skill side. Pick whatever you think needs boosting. next get imp feint, then iron will, then great fort. Then when they become available vital strike and imp vital strike. take a talent to learn weapon focus bastard sword.
20 point buy: str 14(16) dex 12 con 14 int 13 wis 12 cha 14
You will get 3 skill focuses that you can put towards your most important skills, and 10 skill ranks per lvl and a bonus to all skills from the attribute. The build has room for feat, skill, and rogue talent customization.
I see things are progressing a long well. A few things.
~Please avoid pvp scenarios, solo monster scenarios are fine you're more likely to be facing a lone orc or bearded devil before you face a pc fighter.
~Group scenarios would be better I'm certainly of the mind there are three other members of the group (or more).
~STR Ranger earns a cookie....It's oatmeal raisin.
I do like the variety of builds I'm seeing. I expected the usual line up of scout rogues, thugs, and sap masters. However the sanctified rogues and otehrs are nice to see as well.
I think I'll work on that claw rogue later today. I'm also interested in seeing what cna be done with builds utilizing dazzling display/shatter defenses as well as unarmed builds.
OATMEAL RAISIN?!
Basically, Rogues have 3 major problems.
- Low Accuracy: Sneak Attack can make up for that sometimes... With the right conditions, Rogue don't hit very often, but when they do, they deal a lot of damage... But it really doesn't pay off if the enemy has good AC or is smart enough to not be flanked (and most of them should be). Also, for Sneak Attack to count, Rogues will need a full attack (because a single SA is far from impressive), which takes us to the next problem...
- Poor Defenses: AC might not be that much of problem for TWF/Finesse builds, since your high Dex makes up for the lack of medium armor. Str-based Rogues, are very likely to regret standing still. As their HP is not anything to write home about. A more serious problem is the Rogue's deplorable saves. Low Fort and Will becomes a huge problem at 6th level and beyond.
- Weak Class Features: At best, Rogue class features are "okay, but not great", at worst they are completely useless. Most skill are rather weak and easily trumped by low-level spells. Trapfinding is okay, but unless you're playing "Grimtooth and the Gygaxian Dungeon", any party will do just fine without it. And of course, to add insult to the injury, we have Rogue Talents, which are almost exclusively terrible. There a few good ones, but most of them are laughably useless.
Paizo could fix Rogues by creating good Rogue Talents. it is what I did. In my homebrew I added very few class features to Rogues, but revised lots of Rogue Talents to be far more useful. Maybe the Rogue is still less powerful than Bards and Rangers, but not they can at least remain effective and competitve during he whole campaign.
IME, effective Rogues are Half-Orcs or Half-Elves (for the bonuses to saves from alternate racial traits) with reach wepaons, Power Attack and Furious Focus. TWF with 2 Agile cestus also works, but is very gear-specific and that -2 to attack rolls really hurts.
Alrighty, build number 1
Dwarf Rogue(Scout)
Str: 20 (2 race, 2 levels, 2 belt)
Dex: 16 (1 levels, 2 belt)
Con: 18 (2 race 2 belt)
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (-2 race)
Feats/Talents:
1:Bludgeoner
2:Weapon Training(Focus Dwarven Longhammer)
3:Sap Adept
4:Combat Trick(Power Attack)
5:Sap Master
6:Offensive Defense
7:Power Attack
8:Strong Impression
9:Vital Strike
10:Feat: Steel Soul
11:Enforcer
12:Entanglement of Blades
Items:
+2 Impact Dwarven Hammer
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Feather step slippers
Items can and will vary. There is a bunch of money left here because I'm lazy.
Defense:
HP: 117 (12d8+48con+12favored)
AC: 24
Fort: +11(+15sp) Ref: +14(+18sp) Will: +8(+12sp)
Offense:
Skirmisher Vital Strike Attack (non-lethal):
Attack Bonus: +19 (+9 BAB, +5 str, +1 focus, +2 weapon, +2 headband, -0 furious focus)
Damage: 18d6+42, 105 avg. (3d6 weapon, 3d6 vital strike, 6d6 sneak attack, 6d6 sap master, +24 sap adept, +7 strength, +9 power attack, +2 weapon)
There you go, pure knockout master. Non-lethal damage works against pretty much anything that is alive, and if it doesn't there are fair odds that you aren't getting sneak attack either.
Alrighty, build number 1
Dwarf Rogue(Scout)
Str: 20 (2 race, 2 levels, 2 belt)
Dex: 16 (1 levels, 2 belt)
Con: 18 (2 race 2 belt)
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (-2 race)
Uh... Dwarves don't get a bonus to Str. They get bonuses to Con & Wis.
Now for Build number 2, which is a build I have actually used.
Human Rogue 11, Swordlord 1
Str:10
Dex:24 (2 race, 2 levels, 4 belt)
Con:14
Int:14 (1 level)
Wis:10
Cha:14 (2 ioun stone)
Feats/Talents:
Human: Exotic Weapon Prof. Aldori Dueling Sword
1: Combat Expertise
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Improved Feint
4: Weapon Training(Focus Aldori Dueling Sword)
5: Dazzling Display
6: Offensive Defense
7: Hero's Display
8: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9: PrC Swordlord (deft strike, dueling mastery) Performing Combatant
10: Back to rogue
11: Dramatic Display, Feat Talent (Masterful Display)
12: -
Items:
+2 Cruel Aldori Dueling Sword
Belt of Dex +4
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Green Sphere Ioun Stone
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Boots of Springing and Striding
Circlet of Persuasion
Items can and will vary. There is a bunch of money left here because I'm lazy again.
Relevant Skill Bonuses:
Feint: +22 (+12 ranks, +3 trained, +3 circlet, +2 headband, +2 cha)
Intimidate: +20 (+12 ranks, +3 trained, +3 circlet, +2 charisma)
Combat Performance +12 (+3 circlet, +2 cha, +2 BAB, +3 perform ranks, +2 feat)
Defense:
HP: 94 (11d8+1d10+24con+12favored)
AC: 30 (+7 shirt, +7 dex, +2 dueling mastery, +2 ring, +2 ammy)
AC with Offensive D.: 36
Fort: +8 Ref: +18 Will: +6
Offense:
BAB: +9/+4
The goal is to feint (+22), then perform (+12), to intimidate all within 30ft (+20), and activate dramatic display at the same time. This costs a Move and a Swift.
Then Attack:
Attack: +20 (+7 dex, +2 sword, +1 focus, +2 headband, +2 dramatic display, -3 expertise)
Damage: 1d8+6d6+9, Avg 35 (1d8, +6d6 SA, +7 dex, +2 sword)
Riders: Target has defenses shattered, target is sickened, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC from offensive defense, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC from combat expertise (Ac is now 39)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At higher levels
the progression continues with these:
13:Dodge, Ninja Trick (Improved Unarmed Strike)
14:
15:Crane Style, Ninja Trick (Crane Wing)
So at level 15, assuming that you are doing the exact same thing as before, with a +1 better armor, ring and amulet, you can fight defensively and offensive defense to get up to a 45 AC with a free deflect on the first successful hit.
Uh... Dwarves don't get a bonus to Str. They get bonuses to Con & Wis.
Sorry, that was just a pure typo, point buy is still accurate.
Another bold trust has sap master with no way to get for flat footed. Why?
Scout archtype. They count as flat-footed:
Scout’s Charge (Ex)
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Skirmisher (Ex)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
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Wis 12, Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Cha 7 (Favored Class Rogue) Human (+2 dex) L4 +1 dex, 5d8+20 hp, +10 ranged, +8 melee (2 ranged attacks = +8/+8, 3 ranged attacks = +6/+6/+6 ), Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +4, AC 18, CMB +4, CMD 15
Level 5 Rogue/Level 1 Heretic (Inquisitor Archetype)
Feats: Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Blinkback Belt (5kg), 4 MW Daggers (1,208g), Mithral Chain Shirt (1,100g), MW Thieve’s Tools (100g)
8,592 g remaining
Abilities: Judgment (Escape: shoot them in the face and rehide at no penalty), Lore of Escape (+wis to Bluff and Stealth), Hide Tracks (enemies receive -5 to finding my tracks), Stern Gaze (+1 intimidate/sense motive), Domain, Orisons, 3d6 Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +1, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Combat Focus (Point Blank Shot), 1 other Rogue Talent
Domain: Ambush (create concealment to hide in)
Orisons: Create Water, Detect Magic, Acid Splash, Light
L1 Spell: Cure Light Wounds, True Strike (2 L1 spells/day)
Skills: (1 rank) Climb (+5), Swim (+5), Intimidate (+3), Survival (+5), Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, nature, planes, religion) + 6
(6 ranks) Perception (+10), Stealth (+14), UMD (+7), Disable Device (+15)
I recommend 3 attacks until you have to roll a 16 or better, then 2 attacks instead. If you have to roll at 20 to hit with 2 attacks, might as well lob a 3rd.
Half-Orc. Trade Ferocity for a bite attack (or sacred tattoo and get a bite from another source like a trait). The bite attack is for another chance of inflicting sneak damage on a full attack.
Strength build. STR 16(+2 race), DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 7
Use a two-handed weapon (falchion/greataxe).
Feats:
1. Dodge
2. Weapon training: Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
4. Combat Trick: Furious Focus
5. Mobility
6. Offensive Defense
7. Spring attack
At level 8 you can use a charge or spring attack to get a free sneak attack. Spring attack is preferred because you can use the movement after the attack to get into flanking position without provoking AoOs. Power Attack without penalty is great for that too and helps with sneak immune foes. Mobility is useful when charging enemies with reach. As soon as you are in flanking position, full attack away with axe+bite. The bite won't hit too often but it's damage from a flank will be nice with sneak attack.
Equipment wise, you should go for the highest possible movement per round, i.e. light armor (or mithral medium) and boots of striding and springing or boots of haste.
You're still a glass cannon, but at least you can sneak attack with reasonable ease and your damage isn't laughable when you can't. Also no 2-weapon penalties.
Mobility and Offensive Defense should help your survival.
Fridthjofr
CN Male Human Vargr 7 (Swashbuckler/Scout)
Medium Size
Strength 20
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 12
Charisma 10
Attack – Unarmed Strike +11 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Magic) for 1d3+6 (+5 Str, +1 Magic)
Or Cold Iron Battleaxe +11 for 1d8+6 or +10 for 1d8+8 (two-hand grip)
Or Sling +9 for 1d6+6
Hit Points 7d8+14+4 = 56
Initiative +5 (+3 Dex, +2 Trait)
Speed 30 Feet
AC 22 (+5 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Shield, +1 Natural, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge)
Fortitude +6 (+2 Base, +2 Con, +2 Resistance)
Reflex +10 (+5 Base, +3 Dex, +2 Resistance)
Will +5 (+2 Base, +1 Wis, +2 Resistance) (+2 Morale vs Fear)
CMB +11 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Magic)
CMD 25 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge)
Traits:
Chance Savior (+2 Initiative)
Armor Expert (-1 to Armor Check Penalty)
Feat and Talent scheme:
1: Sap Adept (+2 damage per sneak attack die if nonlethal and bludgeoning.)
H1: Dodge (+1 AC)
2: Talent: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training) (Improved Unarmed Strike)
3: Knockout Artist (+1 damage per sneak attack die if unarmed nonlethal to someone denied their dexterity bonus.)
4: Talent: Ninja Trick (Style Master - Crane Style) (-2 Attack, +4 AC if fighting defensively.)
5: Sap Master (Double sneak attack dice if nonlethal bludgeoning to someone flat-footed.)
6: Talent: Combat Trick (Outflank) (+4 to flank with someone else with this feat. Free attack on a crit!)
H2: Talent: Offensive Defense (+AC equal to sneak attack dice after a sneak attack.)
7: Crane Wing (Block a melee attack 1/round while using Crane Style)
Class Features
Sneak Attack 4d6
Martial Training – May take the Combat Trick twice. Proficient with battleaxe.
Evasion – No damage on a successful reflex save.
Daring - +2 to Acrobatics checks and Will saves against fear.
Scout’s Charge – Opponents are treated as flat-footed on a charge.
For the record: Master Sawatashi Hasegawa
CG Halfling Rogue 10
10 Str
25 Dex (19, +2 levels (4,8), +4 item)
12 Con
16 Int (14, +2 item)
10 Wis
10 Cha
AC: 20 (10 +2 Armor, +7 Dex, +1 Size) (+1 against larger foes)
HP: 63
Fort: +5
Reflex: +14
Will : +4 (+1 Trait)
Initiative: +9 (+7 Dex, +2 trait)
BAB: 7/2
Speed: 30ft.
CMD:+6 (+8 against Disarm)
CMB: +23 (+25 against Disarm)
Pile o' Skills::
Acrobatics +15
Appraise +13
Bluff +8
Diplomacy +9
Disable +15
Disguise +8
Escape artist +15
Knowledge(Arcana) +13
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +15
Knowledge(Local) +15
Knowledge(Nature)+12
Knowledge(Planes)+12
Knowledge(Religion)+12
Perception +10
Sense Motive +4
Sleight of Hand +25 (+5 item)
Stealth +19
UMD +13 (Headband Skill)
Feats/Rogue Talents::
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Sap Adept
4: Improved Steal (from Archetype)
4: Ninja Trick: Deflect Arrows
5: Sap Master
6: Ninja Trick: Combat Style: Kirin Style
7: Combat Expertise
8: Greater Steal
8: Combat Talent: Improved Disarm
9: Kirin Strike
10: Weapon Snatcher
Relevant Gear::
+1 Brawling Silken Ceremonial Armor
+3 Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes
+0 Agile, Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists
Headband of Int +2
Belt of Dex +4
Gloves of Larceny
Boots of the Cat
Swarmbane Clasp
Relevant Combat Numbers::
Melee: Unarmed Strike +20/+15 (+7/2 BAB, +7 DEX, +2 Brawling, +3 Bodywrap, +1 Size); 1d2 + 12 (+7 Dex, +2 Brawling, +3 Bodywrap)
NOTE: The bodywrap can only be used on two unarmed strikes per round. If I make both iteratives, Attacks of opportunity are at +17, for 1d2+9.
Kirin Strike: If I have successfully identified a creature with a Knowledge check, I can add an additional +6 damage to a single strike.
Sneak Attack (Lethal): 5d6
Sneak Attack (Nonlethal): 10d6+10
Disarm: +27 (Weapon Snatcher)
Steal: +29
Ranged: +1 Merciful Sling +16; 1d3 damage
(Slinging from invisibility allows for Sap Master to trigger.)
Rogue Man
Human Rogue (Sanctified Rogue, Swashbuckler) 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 103 (10d8+50)
Fort +11, Ref +15, Will +11; +3 morale bonus vs. fear
Defensive Abilities rogue talents (combat trick, combat trick, defensive roll [1/day], finesse rogue, improved evasion), evasion, improved evasion; Resist daring
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile sap +13/+8 (1d6+7) and
+1 agile sap +13/+8 (1d6+4)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats Great Fortitude, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Toughness, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (sap)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +22, Bluff +13, Climb +5, Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +17, Escape Artist +19, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (local) +9, Perception +15, Stealth +19, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common
SQ divine epiphany
Other Gear +1 Mithral Kikko armor, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +1 Agile Sap, +1 Agile Sap, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +2, Decoy ring, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, 2968 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Decoy ring If withdraw/helpless, invisible 3 rds and 4 illusory decoys run in opposite directions.
Defensive Roll (1/day) (Ex) When reduced below 0 Hp by an attack, can attempt to halve dam with Reflex save.
Divine Epiphany (CL 10) (1/day) (Su) Use augury once per day.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when dealing nonlethal damage
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is
I went the sap master route, which means his dpr when not flanking is an amazing: 14.18.
That is pretty bad! BUT all is not lost here! The swashbuckler archetype gives a morale bonus to acrobatics checks, which is pretty nice. The monster creation guide does not list an average cmd, so I am going to use the Fire Giant. It's cmd I beat on a 3, so I can flank pretty well!
When Rogue Man is flanking, his dpr jumps to: 124.36 (!!!) This is actually comparable to a paladin smiting and full attacking an evil outsider, and almost enough to incapacitate the giant in one round.
Note: The dpr comes from the 10d6 sneak attack and the flat +20 damage from sap adept and sap master.
Not only that damage, but Rogue Man has ok saves and a variety of useful face skills! While he is anaemic on his own, he shines with aid. His single attack dpr when flanking is pretty good, at 46.92.
The main drawback here is that it is nonlethal damage, which I actually don't find to be a drawback, as in my games I often want enemies alive for multiple reasons. It doesn't work against constructs an undead, but then you are just equal to a regular rogue in terms of sneak attack damage, so it ends up not being an issue.
Rogue Man
Human Rogue (Sanctified Rogue, Swashbuckler) 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 93 (10d8+40)
Fort +9, Ref +15, Will +9; +3 morale bonus vs. fear
Defensive Abilities rogue talents (combat trick, combat trick, defensive roll [1/day], finesse rogue, improved evasion), evasion, improved evasion; Resist daring
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile sap +13/+8 (1d6+7) and
+1 agile sap +13 (1d6+4)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats Dazzling Display, Enforcer, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Shatter Defenses, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (sap)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +28, Bluff +8, Climb +5, Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +21, Escape Artist +19, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Perception +15, Stealth +19, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common
SQ divine epiphany
Other Gear +1 Mithral Kikko armor, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +1 Agile Sap, +1 Agile Sap, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +2, Decoy ring, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 2868 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Dazzling Display (Sap) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Decoy ring If withdraw/helpless, invisible 3 rds and 4 illusory decoys run in opposite directions.
Defensive Roll (1/day) (Ex) When reduced below 0 Hp by an attack, can attempt to halve dam with Reflex save.
Divine Epiphany (CL 10) (1/day) (Su) Use augury once per day.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when dealing nonlethal damage
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
The dc to intimidate a fire giant is pretty low, only 19, so a +13 intimidate will do the job.
Here is my 2 cents on a working Rogue build. Granted I had to dip 2 levels into Fighter (Lore Master) to get the necessary feats early enough. I am only listing the feats by level so you can fill in race, stats, traits, etc as you see fit. The final four levels are open as well as few games ever get that far.
Rogue (Knife Master)
1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
3 Improved Initiative
Fighter (Lore Master)
4 Quick Draw
5 Wave Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
Rogue (Knife Master)
6 Weapon Focus (Weapon Training)
7 Two Weapon Feint
8 Greater Feint (Combat Trick)
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Befuddling Strike
11 Improved Disarm
12 Disarming Strike (Advanced Talent: Feat)
13 Critical Focus
14 Improved Evasion
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Opportunist
17
18 (Advanced Talent)
19
20 (Advanced Talent)
The build assumes dual wielding Kukris to get the max crit range and bonus sneak attack damage from the Knife Master archetype. Agile and Keen weapon enchants are highly recommended asap.
Combat is centered around the feint, with Wave Strike allowing for a feint as a Swift action, and Greater Feint assuring the target is flat-footed until my next turn. Assuming the feint succeeds, each attack that hits will also deal Sneak Attack damage (if target type allows).
[edit]
Added Two Weapon Feint to allow for feints after the first round (I knew there was a reason for going TWF).
ranger 5 rogue 6
Dwarf Ranger (Guide) 6/Rogue 6
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +5(7 in favored terrain; Senses darkvision 60 ft.;
Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 94 (6d10+6d8+24)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +16 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +14; +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion, trap sense, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 dwarven urgosh +14/+9 (1d6+6/19-20x3) and
. . +2 keen +15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20x3)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, ranger's focus, rogue talents (fast stealth, ledge walker, positioning attack [1/day]), sneak attack +3d6
Ranger (Guide) Spells Prepared (CL 3rd; concentration +7):
1st (2/day)—lead blades, longstrider
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 31 (31 vs. bull rush, 31 vs. trip)
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Lunge, Steel Soul, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dwarven urgosh)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+7 jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Bluff +4, Climb +12, Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +21, Disguise +6, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Heal +10, Intimidate +3, Perception +23 (+26 to locate traps, +25 while in ??? terrain, +25 while in urban terrain, +25 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +2, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +16 (+18 while in ??? terrain, +18 while in urban terrain), Survival +18 (+20 while in ??? terrain, +20 while in urban terrain, +21 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrain (urban +2), greed, hardy, slow and steady, stability, stonecunning, terrain bond, track, trapfinding +3, wild empathy
Other Gear +3 Mithral Agile breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +5), +1 Keen Kukri, +2 Keen Kukri, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of giant strength +4, ???, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +2, eyes of the eagle, thieves kit 3084 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Boots of friendly terrain ([???]) Gain a Favored Terrain or increase bonus by 2 if already have same.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Ledge Walker (Ex) No penalty to use Acrobatics to move full speed on narrow surfaces & not flat footed.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Positioning Attack (1/day) (Ex) When hit a foe in melee, move up to 30 ft without AoO, but must end adjacent to that foe.
Ranger's Focus +4 (2/day) (Ex) +4 to hit and damage focused target.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Terrain Bond (Ex) Allies within LOS and hearing gain +2 Initiative, Perception, Stealth, Survival and don't leave tracks within your favored terrain.
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
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I will try to get some DRP numbers up.
I will look at
DPR-no class features, and no flanking.
DRP with flanking and sneak attack
DPR with ranger's focus
DPR with ranger's focus, and flanking and sneak attack.
I will either edit this post or make another comment. I doubt it will take an hour so I should editing this post in 30 minutes or so.
edit: I will also look at perception and stealth checks and how that stack up against CR=character level creatures equivalent creatures.
1 Improved Initiative
2 (Combat Trick) Point Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Deadly Aim
9 Vital Strike
15 Improved Vital Strike
17 Improved Precise Shot
Gear: longbow, wand (gravity bow), greater bracers of archery, greater sniper goggles
Start with a shortbow, as soon as you get the bracers switch to a longbow. Use UMD to buff yourself with gravity bow. Focus on dex to push your initiave and catch foes flatfooted in the first round. As soon as you're level 8, move at least 10ft during combat and stay away from enemies. You get only one shot each round, but you still do a lot of d6's damage (+deadly aim +goggles).
Human Poisoner Sancified Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP: 10d8 +10
AC: 19 (10 +8 dex +1 armor)
Touch: 19; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +16, Will +5
BAB +7; CMB +11 ; CMD 29
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed + (Purple Worm poison - contact For=DC26 1d3str, frequency 1/round 12 rounds, cure: 2 consecutive saves)
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
Brute/Scout Half-Orc Rogue
TRADE ferocity for SACRED TATTOO
(Start with at least 18 STR)
Str 16+2 put at least 2 points in here at 4 and 8.
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (your 3rd bump at 12 here is good.)
Wis 11
Cha 7
Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)
There is another trait that let's you use INT for UMD Checks. Take that.
Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1 SA 1d6, Frightening, Intimidating Prowess
2 Weapon Training- Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3 Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Brutal Beating
4 Befuddling Strike, Scouts Charge
5 Power Attack, SA 3d6
6 Combat trick: Cornugon Smash
7 Blindfight, SA 4d6
8 Offensive Defence, Skirmisher
9 Shatter Defences, SA 5d6
10 Crippling Strike or bleeding Attack
11 Combat Expertise, SA 6d6
12 Fast Tumble
13 Moonlight Stalker, SA 7d6
14 Oppourtunist
15 Extra Rogue Talent: Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception), SA 8d6
16 Defensive Roll
17 Critical Focus, SA 9d6
18 Feat: Blinding Critical
19 Feat, SA 10d6
20 Talent, Master Strike
*Honorable Mention: Hide in plain sight. If your game is predominantly played in one dominant environment you must take this.
Why this rogue kicks ass!!!
Ok so this guy has a few things going for him.
1. He debuff the crap out of enemies. Between dropping shaken, sickened, flat-footed, befuddled and offensive defense he excels at making foes miss him, while he SA's their punk a$$. They are sucking -6 to Attack the rogue and -2 and no Dex to AC, -2 to saves. And they are trying to hit a foe with his SA dice added to his AC. You have to choose between Befuddling and Offensive defense but that's what Iterative attacks are for.
2. He SA's, all the time. Anytime he moves 10 feet or more. Sure there is flanking, but by level 9 he doesn't need one (Shatter Defences make demoralized foes flat-footed.) If he is moving less than 10 feet that means he is 5ft, stepping and SA full attacking a Shatter Defences target.
3. Damage. SA all the time plus high Str power attack. Plus Moonlight Stalker.
4. Reliable to hit. The daredevil boots, not sucking a twf penalty, Moonlight Stalker are a nice bunch of regular buffs the rogue can bring to his own fight.
How does he Scout and Live?
This guy Stealth like a normal Scout. Out front with no light source (Darkvision) as soon as you get spotted or you spot something, you use a Wand of Blur. (Grants concealment, turning on Moonlight Stalker!)
Choose if you wanna charge a lone foe with a SA Cornugon Smash (drops SA, Shaken, Sickened and Offensive Defence on the first hit)
Or Stealth back and warn the party.
Half-orc
Lore warden 2 / Scout 8.
=== Stats ===
Str 18 (22),Dex 14,con 14 ,Int 13,Wis 12, Cha 10
=== Defense ===
AC: 20 (+6 armor, +1 def, +1 nat +2 dex)
Touch AC:
Hp: 81 (2d10+8d8+30)
CMD: 27
=== Saves ===
Fort: +11
Ref : +12 (plus evasion)
Will: +10
=== Attacks ===
Vital strike
+2 silversheen greatsword + vital strike: +18 (4d6+20 19-20/x2)
Best case escenari: lead blades + vital strike + sneak attack
+2 silversheen greatsword + vital strike: +18 (10d6+20 19-20/x2)
=== Traits ===
Indomitable will
reactionary
=== Feats And rogue talents===
1. Power attack, Iron will
2. Furious focus, combat expertise
3. Improved feint
4. Offensive defense
5. cornugon smash
6. Minor magic (acid splash
7. Combat trick (Greater feint)
8. Rogue talent (weapon focus)
9. Vital strike
10. Rogue talent (Intimidating prowess)
=== Skills ===
Perception: +19
Intimidate: +24
Bluff: +16
Diplomacy: +11
UMD: +16
Stealth: +20
ACrobatics: +15
Disable device: +11
Swim: +10
Climb: +10
=== Special ===
Darkvision 60 ft
Sacred Tattoo
Intimidating
Sneak attack +4d6
Evasion
Trapfinding
Trap sense
=== Gear ===
+2 silversheen greatsword
+2 Mihral Shadowed chianshirt
+2 cloack of resistance
+4 belt of str
+1 ring of protection
+1 Amulet of natural armor
+1 cracked pale green prism Ioun stone (attacks)
+1 cracked pale green prism Ioun stone (saves)
Elven boots
Eyes of the eagle
Circlet of persuation
Wand of vanish
Wand of cure light wound
Wand of shield
Wand of lead blades
20 point buy
level 12
Halfling Master of Many Styles Monk 2/Rogue 10(I don't think an archetype would make this any better)
Traits: Reactionary (Does any Rogue player NOT take this?)
Master of the Sudden Strike
Str 12
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 9
Monk 1: Crane Style, Stunning Fist, Cautious Fighter, Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Crane Wing
Rogue 1: Weapon Finesse
Rogue 2: Combat Trick: (Martial Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar)
Rogue 3: Dervish Dance
Rogue 4: Befuddling Strike
Rogue 5: Uncanny Defense
Rogue 6: Weapon Training: Scimitar
Rogue 7: Outflank
Rogue 8: Positioning Attack
Rogue 9: Blundering Defense
Rogue 10: Opportunist
Important equipment: Scimitar, Monk's Robes, anything that helps stealth or perception, or your saves or AC (including boosts to Wisdom and Dex)
Important skills: Stealth, Perception, Perform: Dance (only need the 2 ranks), Acrobatics, the rest are up to you
Speaking of Saves (Without extra equipment)
Fort: +9
Ref: +16
Will: +9 (+11 vs Fear)
AC: 17 without equipment, +5 Dodge Bonus when fighting defensively or taking total defense (which you should be doing always) for a typical naked AC of 22, FFAC of 22 or 10(Uncanny Dodge) Touch AC of, you guessed it, 22. Monk's Robes raise those all up by +1, and if you're completely naked you're doing it wrong anyway.
This turned out to be a more defensive build than I originally anticipated as I started writing this, but its one I'd personally love to play. Moving things around so that Two Weapon Fighting can be achieved and you can mix Scimitar and kicks might be fun too, but I'm not sure where I'd place it yet. Also would like to include Improved Initiative, but perhaps a +7 is enough until a spot opens.
EDIT: Changed saves, having forgotten about Halfling save bonuses.
The only problem with STR Ranger's oatmeal raisin cookie (lol) build is that you do actually need to hit a shaken target before they become flat-footed. SO it isn't 100% SA all the time, but Scout is pretty solid either way.
You can also try doing Scout + Cleave Feats + Surprise Follow Through, but I hate cleave.
Maybe if you could work in that absurdly feat heavy tree of Goblin/Orc/Giant slayer, PLUS surprise follow through plus improved surprise follow through plus cleave plus great cleave with a scout archtype.
But man that is tough.
It would have to look something like this:
Requirement: Dwarf, Str 13
Feats/Talents:
1:Power Attack
2:Weapon Training(Focus Dwarven Longhammer)
3:Cleave
4:Combat Trick(Surprise Follow Through)
5:Goblin Cleaver
6:Offensive Defense
7:Orc Hewer
8:Befuddling Strike
9:Great Cleave
10:Feat: Lunge
11:Improved Surprise Follow Through
12:Entanglement of Blades
13:Steel Soul
14:Improved Evasion
15:Giant Killer
Now at least at level 7 you can cleave and get a sneak attack on the second target, then at 11 you can sneak attack any number of cleave targets.
So at level 11, you will probably be hitting your best attack at +19 or so. Assuming that you are fighting medium opponents, and Lunging, and the following grid:
[ ][ ][E][E][E][ ][ ]
[ ][E][E][E][E][E][ ]
[E][E][ ][ ][ ][E][E]
[E][E][ ][P][ ][E][E]
[E][E][ ][ ][ ][E][E]
[ ][E][E][E][E][E][ ]
[ ][ ][E][E][E][ ][ ]
You could theoretically get 28 sneak attacks in a round. Add in cleave through at some point and you could get a bunch more.
I still don't think this is necessarily a good build though.
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Hi guys,
I was pointed to this thread last night, and I thought I would present my thoughts on rogues, largely drawn from PFS experiences since the beginning of the campaign. I've got a few things to talk about which really haven't been touched on in this thread, and are likely not contained within the Paizo Board Wisdom at this point (ex: the Rogue and the bane baldric). First thing to note, I'm not going to have a whole lot of time for a lot of back-and-forth, so the most analytical posts will be the ones at the top of my "respond to" pile.
As some background, I have played two Rogues throughout PFS's lifetime, one starting with the APG's release in 2010, and the second starting with Ultimate Combat's release in 2011. The first Rogue is now 10th level, and the second just hit 16th. And since I slow-track a lot, these two Rogues have a lot of adventures under their belts.
I've found Rogues and Bards to be my favorite classes. With the Rogue, I really enjoy building and playing in such a way as to make Sneak Attack pay off. It's much more interesting to me to work to create sneak attack opportunities than it is to just walk up and hit things with Power Attack. With the Rogue, I have to work at it, and that's more fun to me. This point matters because it means that the playstyles which I've found make Rogues work well are not for everyone.
To start us off:
Rogue vs. Ninja
I've noticed that the Paizo Board Wisdom seems to think that the Ninja just flat-out beats the Rogue hands-down. In my experience, this is not actually true, and the choice between Rogue and Ninja is a bit more nuanced. Let's line up the two classes and compare the features which are not shared:
Ninja:
-ki pool equal to half ninja level + Cha, can take an extra attack, can add +4 to Stealth, can add +20 to movement, all as swift actions.
-can take Ninja Tricks which require ki expenditure. Vanish seems to be the most popular one.
-Light Steps, No Trace, and Poison Use. For the most part, these class features are not very important, though I've had good wuxia fun with Light Steps from time to time.
Rogue:
-Gets Evasion. This is not trivial, especially in the PFS environment.
-Can take archetypes which trade out Trapfinding and Trap Sense.
-Has zero per-day class abilities, not including certain talents. This means that a Rogue can be built to operate at full strength all the time, without having to worry about spending per-day resources.
As strong of a choice Ninja is, it lacks an early route to Evasion (spending a Master Trick doesn't cut it, that's too late), and its ki abilities often require swift actions. The bane baldric also requires a swift action to activate, a very relevant item which I will detail later.
Also, a Ninja cannot take any of the sweet Rogue archetypes which trade out Trapfinding and Trap sense. As other posters have mentioned, Trapfinding is pretty crappy these days. I look at it and Trap Sense as empty class features, asking myself which Rogues archetype I'll take to fill those empty slots with. Whatever I choose will be stronger than Poison Use and No Trace, the Ninja's equivalent, that I know.
It's also worth noting that in my experience, the ninja's ability to spend a ki for an extra attack isn't all it's made out to be. Most of the time, when I've gotten full-attacks, either the target will fall over without the extra attack, the target will have more than enough hit points to withstand an extra attack but not another full-attack, or an ally is in position to mop up without my having to spend a ki. Pathfinder combat is not about maximizing damage, it's about achieving sufficient damage to take the target to zero HP.
I hope that's enough to give you guys something to think about.
More to come,
-Matt
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Interesting fact about Ninjas and Rogues is that a Rogue can get a Ki Pool as well, but it's Wisdom based instead of Charisma based. It also costs a Rogue Talent, which does hurt but is forgivable when taking the Rogue talent "Ninja Trick."
Wisdom based Ki pool means that getting a moderate Wisdom breaks a lot of what people have problems with when it comes to melee classes in general. A mere 14(+2) Wisdom gives this rogue a +2 to Perception, Survival, Profession, Will Saves, and any other ability that can run off of wisdom(Irori can get a trait that replaces any STR or DEX based skill with Wisdom). This generally means that in social conversations he won't be doing as well, but would instead be much more at home in the field.
The skill system and traps are the major drawbacks to the rogue. The secondary problems are that bards rangers and alchemists (counting archetypes) get abilities that are better than the rogues options for certain roles.
If skills functioned more like BAB or CL where they naturally went up depending on your level like 3/4th or 1/2 or full and you got boosts to what could be done at certain points like at skill rank 6 climb you gain a climb speed, rogues would get a larger benefit. This would require a large overhaul to the skill system though.
Traps as they stand now are either save or die or they deal a small amount of hit point damage and are healed up afterwards. These kind of traps are alright but they have overinflated CR and give EXP for setting them off. If the incentive for disarming them was increased instead of just tripping them, Some more interactive ones were designed, and the one time damage and effect ones were more abundant it would give the rogue a more useful niche to fill. Not that traps should be the rogues only role in a party.
Rogue talents and class features are generally lacklustre for a class without spell casting, full BAB, or good saves. The rogue suffers in every category except skill points and increasing your skill points per level quickly outpaces the rogues starting advantage.
The rogue could function as a spell less, low attack, and poor save character if they had talents that worked better than feats, or rage powers, discoveries, and arcana. Some better or beefed up class features could help to.
I'd propose, in general? That the issue with the rogue is similar to that of the monk. That is, through flavor or mechanics, it gives the player an odd perception of what the class is meant to be versus how it works. For example, the monk suggests a nimble, mobile warrior, when in reality, you'd do better to stand still and invest in strength. The rogue, through SA, suggests that the class is something of a sexier, lighter fighter who if only we'd give him the chance, he could slice dragons to ribbons.
So this is and isn't addressing the thread. I think it's more: in future editions, I'd hope that the perception and CONCEPT of the rogue gets addressed.
The most interesting rogue series of concepts I've seen put forward to date are the ones by Kirth in the Homebrew section, and I'm not a great fan of Kirthfinder.
Why? The suggestions focus on the rogue as something more...coherent, I suppose. More held-together, conceptually, and paints it as a...rogue. A sly being. A worldly traveler. A knowledgeable scamp. And so on. Instead of "fighter-light who needs a full BAB."
To the player of Pathfinder, it presents a clearer image of what the rogue is and can be.
The message and intent of the class is conflicted.
Anyway, just my .02. Back to builds!
Interesting fact about Ninjas and Rogues is that a Rogue can get a Ki Pool as well, but it's Wisdom based instead of Charisma based. It also costs a Rogue Talent, which does hurt but is forgivable when taking the Rogue talent "Ninja Trick."
You're right, I didn't mention the Ki Pool talent. I'm saving the analysis for a future post about the awesomeness of Forgotten Trick, including a side-by-side comparison of specifically the Ki Pools of the two classes.
-Matt
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I play a modified version of this in PFS. Yes, I live, often playing up and inadvertently tanking. People love the character. It might already be posted but whatever. He is raging and power attacking. You can move stuff around to make him less min-maxed.
Oh, he sneaks on cleave, on knockout, on charge, on 10' movement, or on flank.
I suggest waiting on one feat and get Raging Vitality. I just did this for the ten.
Sneak when using weapon and non-lethal is 8d8+16 +4 Bleed in addition to his base of 1d10+27.
You could also go earthbreaker. Just pick one, crit range or crit multiplier.
Agronak
Male Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Rogue (Scout, Skulking Slayer) 8
CN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent; Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 107 (2d12+8d8+48)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +3 adamantine heavy flail +18/+13 (1d10+27/19-20)
Special Attacks bold strike, rage, rage powers (scent), scout's charge, shifty, skirmisher, sneak attack
+4d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 28
Feats Bludgeoner, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Power Attack, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Surprise Follow-
Through
Traits deadeye, veteran of battle
Skills Acrobatics -1 (+3 jump), Bluff +6, Climb +14, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1,
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (local) +13, Knowledge (nature) +13, Perception +20 (+22 to
find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by
taste), Ride -1, Stealth -1, Swim +13; Racial Modifiers pass for human, scavenger
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement, rogue talents (bleeding attack +4, combat trick, surprise follow-through, trap spotter),
underhanded maneuvers
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +2 Mithral Agile breastplate, +3
Adamantine Heavy flail, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +2,
Eyes of the eagle, Ring of protection +1, 1085 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bleeding Attack +4 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 4 bleed damage/round.
Bludgeoner Inflict nonlethal damage with bludgeoning weapons
Bold Strike (Ex) Sneak attack uses d8 when you charge with a two-handed weapon.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate
action.
Pass for Human +4 (Ex) +4 to disguise checks to conceal half-orc heritage, with no penalty to appear as
another race.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when dealing nonlethal damage
Scavenger +2 Perception to find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps), determine if food is spoiled
or identify a potion by taste.
Scent (Ex) While raging, you gain the scent ability.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Shifty +4 (Ex) +½ rogue level to Bluff checks to feint.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +4d6 +4d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Surprise Follow-Through When you are using Cleave, your second foe is denied its Dex bonus.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Underhanded Maneuvers +4/+6 Perform a dirty trick or steal maneuver when you could sneak attack.
Veteran of Battle +1 Initiative, draw a weapon as a free action during the surprise round.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Some of those builds are almost good. But almost only works when playing horseshoes and lobbing grenades. And with the amount of minmaxing and system mastery some of those need you could make a character of almost any other class that trashes enconters by himself. My opinion remains unchanged. The rogue seriously needs an overhaul.
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Here is a slightly different build still centered around using feint to keep an opponent flat-footed.
Select race, traits, stats to taste. Keep in mind that the feat build assumes Darkvision and/or Low-light Vision is available.
Skills are also not listed. Keep in mind it is a feint build which works off of Bluff.
I dipped heavily into fighter this time, mainly to get Weapon Training. With 5 levels already committed I saw no reason not to get the extra feat/BAB by taking an additional fighter level.
I switched the feint catalyst to Moonlight Stalker this go around thanks to STR Ranger reminding me the effectiveness of Blur for gaining concealment (for some reason I was stuck on my shadowy tiefling casting darkness for concealment). As STR Ranger noted, with a wand of Blur, or better yet a Cloak of Displacement (minor), the Moonlight Stalker chain is pretty sweet.
Fighter (Lore Warden) 6/Rogue (Knife Master) 14
Rogue
1 Improved Initiative
2 Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
3 Two Weapon Fighting
4 Weapon Focus: Kukri (Weapon Training)
Fighter
5 Blind Fight, Moonlight Stalker
6 Combat Expertise (Lore Warden bonus), Improved Feint
Rogue
7 Moonlight Stalker Feint
8 Greater Feint (Combat Trick)
Fighter
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Weapon Specialization
Rogue
11 Improved Disarm
12 Befuddling Strike
Fighter
13 Disarming Strike, Weapon Training 1
14 Critical Focus
Rogue
15 [Feat]
16 [Advanced Talent]
17 [Feat]
18 [Advanced Talent]
19 [Feat]
20 [Advanced Talent]
So what we have is a concealed Rogue, using a swift action to feint (Moonlight Stalker Feint), causing the target to be flat-footed until the beginning of the Rogue's next turn (Greater Feint). With a high amount of attacks, all doing multiple d8 (Knife Master) damage, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Training (Gloves of Dueling ftw), the +hit/+dmg is going to be respectable (against the right targets of course).
So interesting question regarding interactions here.
Does an attack of opportunity count as an attack action for the purposes of the scouts skirmisher ability?
I wonder if that is posible to build a good character accepting rogues mediocre combat prowess and instead making him really good in utility.
That might be worth looking into as well. There have been anecdotes that have suggested this to be a proper use of a rogue but none that have suggested builds or good reasons why the rogue is particularly suited for it.
I switched the feint catalyst to Moonlight Stalker this go around thanks to STR Ranger reminding me the effectiveness of Blur for gaining concealment (for some reason I was stuck on my shadowy tiefling casting darkness for concealment). As STR Ranger noted, with a wand of Blur, or better yet a Cloak of Displacement (minor), the Moonlight Stalker chain is pretty sweet.
It IS pretty sweet.
Works best for a Magus who can have his Fairie Dragon familiar cast Blur on him while he spell combat SG's the enemy.I forgot about Moonlight Stalker Feint.
It could actually negate the need for the Shatter Defences chain on the Oatmeal Rasin build completely, freeing up 3 feats for TWF or the cleave chain.
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Hi everyone,
To continue what's becoming a post series, I'm going to say a few things about Rogues and attack bonuses. As has been posted in this thread, and I believe is a part of the Paizo Board Wisdom, Rogues have very glaring attack bonus problems, largely due to having 3/4 BAB and no class features with which to boost its attack bonus. Fighters get Weapon Training, Barbarians get Rage, Rangers get Favored Enemy, Inquisitors get Bane and Judgment, Monks get Flurry of Blows, Cavaliers get Challenge, Paladins get Smite Evil, Magi get Arcane Pool, spellcasters get spells, and Bards get Inspire Courage. Oh, and Gunslingers target touch AC.
But Rogues? Nothing, unless you want to count bonus feats from Rogue Talents.
What this means is that to play a Rogue who can keep up in the realm of attack bonuses, we'll have to scour the depths of the system, searching for other ways to increase it. We'll rifle through every hardcover and scour every Player's Companion for assistance.
The Rogue has a preinstalled damage source in Sneak Attack; the challenge is to get it to work. And that means boosting attack rolls, not damage. This means that, in my experience, feats like Power Attack are not as important as options which increase the Rogue's attack bonus. The attack bonus is the Rogue's struggle, so anything which drops it is quite painful.
Here's what I've collected from my searching, though this list is off the top of my head...
How to boost a Rogue's attack bonus:
-Weapon Finesse, possibly through the Finesse Rogue talent. This feat enables a Rogue to focus on Dexterity and not have to worry about boosting Strength. Of course, there is the damage issue due to having less Strength, an issue which can be somewhat alleviated with things like the Dervish Dance feat, an agile weapon, and Sneak Attack.
-Weapon Focus, perhaps through the Weapon Training talent. This one's pretty obvious, though it can get a bit tricky when using it with certain two-weapon fighting builds. It's more desirable to dual-wield two of the same weapon with this feat, meaning that, for example, kukri/kukri becomes more desirable when compared to rapier/kukri.
-The heroism spell. This spell adds to attack rolls, skill checks, and saves, all of which the Rogue enjoys. It also lasts a really long time, meaning that a Rogue can get a lot of mileage out of scrolls and potions. This is a great spell to ask your teammates for.
-The courageous weapon enhancement. This enchantment boosts the bonus provided by morale effects, particularly heroism.
-The Gang Up feat. The effectiveness of this feat for achieving flank (and thus +2 to attack rolls) is very dependent on the Rogue's party. Since the Rogue gets so much benefit from flanking his target, this feat is definitely worth considering. In my experience, its usefulness tends to drop off in later levels, once hasted full-attacks become very lethal and full-attacks with enough allies threatening the target become rare. Things just die too quickly for Gang Up to work in the later levels.
-The menacing weapon enhancement on an off-hand weapon or an amulet of mighty fists. A situational +2 to hit is not worth a +1 weapon enhancement on a primary weapon, but it pulls double-duty when on an offhand weapon or amulet, since the bonus applies to attack rolls beyond ones made with the menacing weapon itself. Combines well with Gang Up. Also note the adjacency requirement.
-The Militia trait from Dragon Empires Primer. +1 to hit when flanking.
-The Outflank feat. This one requires a teammate to take it as well, but is very strong for a Rogue when a teammate has it. It also gives a Rogue a reason to wield a weapon with a large critical threat range, like a rapier or kukri, as doing so increases the chances of granting the teammate a free attack. I'll have to look into whether it combines well with Butterfly's Sting from Faiths of Purity.
-A bane baldric. This is a very strong item for Rogues, because its ability to provide +2 to hit as a swift action is very useful, on top of the extra 2d6+2 damage. It's a great buy at 10,000gp. Note that unless the wearer has Inquisitor levels, it only works with light or one-handed weapons, weapons which fit a Dex-based Rogue's weapons of choice.
It's worth noting that activating a bane baldric requires a swift action. So do many of the Ninja's ki powers. Since the wearer cannot use more than one swift action per round, this means that the Ninja's ability to spend ki for an extra attack conflicts with the powers of the bane baldric, reducing the extra attack's usefulness as a go-to ability in every full-attack.
-Boots of speed. Not only do they give a +1 bonus to attack rolls, not only do they grant an extra attack in a full-attack, but they also increase the Rogue's movement speed, enabling him to move into a flanking position or other ideal attack position more easily.
That's all for now. I hope you guys can find some useful tips in there.
More to come,
-Matt
I wonder if it is posible to build a good character accepting rogues mediocre combat prowess and instead making him really good in utility.
I've done a pretty good job so far in PFS of playing two Rogues with both solid combat prowess and really good utility. You don't have to accept mediocrity.
-Matt
I wonder if it is posible to build a good character accepting rogues mediocre combat prowess and instead making him really good in utility.I've done a pretty good job so far in PFS of playing two Rogues with both solid combat prowess and really good utility. You don't have to accept mediocrity.
-Matt
I agree completely.
A lot of the anecdotes I see that try to tell you how to roleplay well or to accept your mediocrity because it's a game about fun feels like quitting to me. If we have to optimize greatly to reach a good result I'm okay with that. Because the process itself tells us much about why the class could use an overhaul. But the results and how we get their also helps players who want to be effective now.