Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work.

[TarkXT]

Sweet gods the beast hath returned!

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, it got mentioned, it was linked, and I remembered I had something to contribute.

[TarkXT]

It's like the Tarrasque.

It slumbers for a few months and then rises from its sleeping pit to devour civlizations.

[Gorbacz]

Rogues fail at devouring civilizations. You need a Master Summoner or an Archer Paladin for that...

[rorek55]

level 12, 20pt buy, the mobile terror.

rogue scout/counterfeit mage,
half elf two options dual mind for +2 will save, then 2hand a shortsword, or get the free exotic prof. in place of skill focus
Stats:

Str: 16 +2(race) +2
Dex: 15 +1
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 07

Alternative for a mite extra Int.

Str: 16 +2(race) +2
Dex: 14 +1
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 07

Feats:
1- Iron will (sure up them will saves), exotic wep. prof. Falcata
3- Dodge
5- Mobility
7- weapon focus (Falcata)
9- open
11- open ( I suggest taking an extra rogue talent here to grab- opportunist, slippery mind, or hunter's surprise)

Talents-
2- weapon training (falcata)
6-Offensive Defense
8- Combat feat or open talent
10- Crippling strike (effects lessened due to moving a bit, possible fix is hamstring talent)
12- Skill Mastery (acrobatics, perception, w/e, w/e)

[ChainsawSam]

Quick question that is related:

Does the Half-Elf's Elfblood racial feature allow them to take Favored Class Bonuses from Half-Elf, Elf, or Human as they see fit?

Thanks.

[TarkXT]

AFAIK yes.

[Atarlost]

Gorbacz wrote:

Rogues fail at devouring civilizations. You need a Master Summoner or an Archer Paladin for that...

Rogues may not devour civilizations, but arguments about rogues get pretty nasty.

[ChainsawSam]

Don't try this below 3rd level. It would suck.

Seriously though, if you play the build before 4th it'll be not great. Play before 3rd and you'll just be shooting a short bow and crying yourself to sleep at night.

The big bummer of my initial Touch Rogue is you're limited to Chill Touch. That's fine, but it's 1d6 + Sneak Attack dice.

The big bummer of Sarf's revised Touch Rogue is you're limited to 2 casts/day of Chill Touch, 2/day Elemental Touch, and 2/day Vampiric Touch. Pretty easy to see that not lasting all day if things get rough.

Here is my proposed solution.

12th level Half-Elf Rogue (Eldritch Raider/Scout)

Racial Heritage (Gillman)... so I guess Half-Elf, Half-Fish Person. Half-Human still because we qualify for Racial Heritage.

If anyone asks you about yourself be sure to look at them, dead eyed, and say "Father came from the Oceans..."

STR 8
DEX 20 (+2 Race, +2 levels)
CON 14 (+1 levels)
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8
(That might be off a bit. I'm shooting from the hip here).

1. Racial Heritage (Gillman)
2. Detect Magic Eldritch Raider Ability
3. Weapon Finesse
4. Major Magic [Chill Touch]
5. [open feat]
6. Offensive Defense
7. [open feat]
8. [open talent]
9. [open feat]
10. Minor Eldritch Magic - Elemental Touch
10. Major Eldritch Magic - Vampiric Touch
11. Quicken Spell-Like Ability [Chill Touch]
12. Quicken Spell-Like Ability [Elemental Touch]

FAVORED CLASS BONUS
1. HP
2. +1 minor magic
3. +1 minor magic
4. +1 major magic
5. +1 major magic
6. +1 minor magic
7. +1 major magic
8. +1 minor magic
9. +1 major magic
10. +1 minor magic
11. +1 major magic

Other: +4 Bonus to UMD from Eldritch Raider

2 casts of Elemental Touch per day as a Swift Action.
3 casts of Chill Touch per day as a Swift Action.
4 casts of Chill Touch per day as a standard action.
2 casts of Vampiric Touch per day as a standard action

---------------------------------------------------------------

Elemental Touch is better than Chill Touch. It lasts longer, has the choice of elements and each element comes with some sort of "kicker" which is a nice bonus.

Chill Touch is still pretty nice as it is negative energy which not a lot of things resist (though Undead heal from it. It can't all be sunshine and lollipops though, so what are you going to do. Find a couple neat anti-undead wands for backup).

Should be able to get through most days with just the quickened Elemental Touch and quickened Chill Touch. The extra casts of Chill Touch are for bad days. The Vampiric Touch is for really bad days (though it also does do pretty decent damage, 12d6).

Consider picking up Empowered Spell Like Ability and Quickened Spell Like Ability for Vampiric Touch maybe.

Pump DEX as high as it will go. No need for strength. Stock up on wands, scrolls, and other UMD items. +4 bonus on top of everything else is pretty huge even with the CHA penalty.

Maybe get an Agile rapier or short sword just in case, BUT DONT EVER USE IT BECAUSE THAT IS THE QUITTERS WAY OUT!

Scout gives Sneak Attack if you charge, or move, or even think too hard about moving.

All Sneak Attack damage is the same damage as the associated attack. So thats 7d6 of Negative Energy damage for Chill Touch. All this element/spell damage bypasses Damage Reduction, so there's a feather in your cap.

Lots of open feats and talents. Do whatever you want with them. You'll hit whatever you want just fine, so you can branch out into other things. Spell Penetration wouldn't be terrible, but it'll only really affect Chill Touch.

Not sure how Two Weapon Fighting works with this. Might work. I don't know. I'm not your supervisor.

You'll be hitting touch AC with just about any element you want. So laugh at all the plebs trying to hit normal AC against armored targets with Rogue attack bonuses. Suckers.

[ShroudedInLight]

Cavalier 4/Rogue X

Pick Combat Expertise as your first feat, tactician to obtain Pack Flanking. Once you get to level 6 take the Horse Master feat which makes your mount scale with your character class.

Spend some feats on Practiced Tactician, now you're a Rogue on a Mount and you and your companion enforce permanent flanking.

[A Medium-Sized Animated Object]

TarkXT wrote:

...

I've thought about this a fair bit, and I've come to the conclusion that the class needs restructuring to be consistent with the current game as published by Paizo (or, my preferred solution, we need an archetype that would mesh better with PFS-style play).

A rogue's job traditionally has been out-of-combat problem solving. Its main class feature isn't sneak attack, it's skill points. A generic rogue is traditionally considerably weaker than any other class in damage-dealing, and makes up for it by getting the party to the fight and possibly taking out a high-priority target around the middle of the fight.

Happily the game has evolved. We know that sidelining large portions of the party for a third of the game is bad, so we've given lots of classes useful skills and spells that help them overcome obstacles. Pass-or-lose checks, once the bread-and-butter of the rogue class, have been replaced with Pass-or-Fight checks (and fighting is fun!). Most of the PFS modules are written according to this schema.

So this means whatever you do with this class, you'll be forcing it into a role it is simply _not_ designed for because the role it _was_ designed for has become obsolete.

The Quick and Dirty Guide to the PFS Rogue:

You can play a rogue as a if it were a variant fighter up through fourth level no problem. Otherwise, consider the following:

Dip Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) at level 1 and move into rogue, dumping strength and rocking a good dex and intelligence. You'll be the envy of most players until mid levels. Truly, that's a powerful and versatile character for the early game with lots of skill points, a good to-hit and damage, and passable defense between deeds and dexterity.As an elf you can swing 10/18/12/16/10/10 on 20 point buy and get native bonuses to perception and saves vs.enchantments plus immunity to the major threat to low-level adventurers, so it's like having a 14 wisdom for a lot of what you need wisdom for. Your best rogue talents are probably pressure points and offensive defense.

Alternatively, a ranged rogue is better than people think. With a good perception and initiative, you can often just straight-up kill one of the primary baddies in the fight by acting in the surprise round and winning initiative in the regular combat round. More importantly, you reduce your ability dependency to one stat and you significantly mitigate the amount of damage you take while still contributing to combat through mid-level PFS play. Rogue talents will likely go to combat feats. I think humans make the best archers. Trade away the bonus skill somehow (heart of the wilderness is reasonable, Silver Tongue is only useful if you are already winning). The trait "Blood of Dragons" from ultimate campaign gives you low light vision.

A note on tactics:

Sneak attack isn't _that_ important. Don't two-weapon fight; it encourages stupid decisions and reduces your to-hit and AC. Sometimes you should fight defensively. If you melee, you should strongly consider using a darkwood shield.