Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work.


Advice

301 to 350 of 2,211 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

I second wraithstrike's question and position.

TarkXT wrote:
In any case I'm ignoring the nonsense because the nonsense is unproductive. Anyway Ima update my pbp's and comeback to consolidate more builds. I may sit down and do some statistics real fast.

Sorry for my part in this, if any.

TarkXT wrote:
Something of interest might be characters seeing actual play in actual games as well. If you do post those please post what the rest of your party looks like and any house rules that may affect your performance.

One of the difficult things with this, to me, is that in our games, those houserules that affect rogues affect all "roguelike" classes (those with sneak attack or trapfinding or whathaveyou), which means that it's not going to really make the rogue more "roguey".

That said, I use Cheapy's "Opportunities Aplenty" variant take on Sneak Attack (regardless of the class), except I bump it up a bit more. Cheapy built it presuming a static +2 each time you'd get a +1d6, but we handle it with a static +3 (multiplied on crits - I don't recall if that was party of Cheapy's original thing or not). This greatly improves rogues' ability to deal damage when they hit (which is still a problem).

One thing that rogues do really well in is a group of two-to-three rogues with, like, one monk and a stealthy healbot. Multiple flanking sneak-attacking characters can shred many things quickly, and the rogue emphasis on stealth isn't negated by their party. Aid Another becomes a thing as well. This grants a certain feel to it, like special OPs teams and the like, that are hard to come by with other classes.

The monk is mostly for the fast movement and flanking potential - it arrives first to set up the flanks and fight defensively.

Now, this set up does have flaws (notably, flying enemies, the bane of many, if not most all, melee'ers) but when it works, it works fabulously, especially in dungeon or close-quarters environments.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Tacticslion wrote:


That said, I use Cheapy's "Opportunities Aplenty" variant take on Sneak Attack (regardless of the class), except I bump it up a bit more. Cheapy built it presuming a static +2 each time you'd get a +1d6, but we handle it with a static +3 (multiplied on crits - I don't recall if that was party of Cheapy's original thing or not). This greatly improves rogues' ability to deal damage when they hit (which is still a problem).

That is one of the best things he's written and one of my favorite quick fixes for the class.

Dark Archive

I posted this in another recent rogue thread, but I think it qualifies as a build that acknowledges and attempts to surpass the rogue's inherent weaknesses.

The Flankless Halfling:
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 9
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed), Low Blow (replaces Keen Senses), Underfoot (replaces Halfling Luck)

Traits: Axe to Grind [UCa], Pragmatic Activator [UCa]

1 Dodge
2 Finesse Rogue [Weapon Finesse]
3 Mobility
4 Minor Magic [prestidigiation]
5 Arcane Strike
6 Combat Trick [Spring Attack]
7 Risky Striker [ARG]
8 Major Magic [liberating command [UCo]
9 Weapon Focus (rapier)
10 Familiar [UCo]
11 Improved Familiar
12 Feat [Improved Critical (rapier)]

The idea is that a rogue is decent when sneak attacking. This build makes use of the single-classed rogue's advantages: a great number of bonus feat opportunities, no shortage of skills, and low expectations.

Through a combination of the Risky Striker halfling feat and Arcane Strike (qualification with Minor Magic!), this little guy is actually doing pretty good damage on a single hit; furthermore, he doesn't have to stay in melee and put that d8 hit die to the test, because Spring Attack. Of course, if the tide is turning, a flanking full attack is still a good time.

Potions of reduce person when combined with Spring Attack means that even against medium foes he can get Risky Striker going, and his surprisingly high static damage makes critical hits surprisingly meaningful. While reduced, clock him out at +23/+18 (1d3+20/15-20). Add to this the very nice Improved Familiar he gets through an absolutely extravagant spending of rogue talents, and there are some definite contributions here.

Single-classed, no archetype. While an archaeologist could do all of this, he would have to make use of retraining to get an Improved Familiar by level 12. Checkmate.

Spoiler:
Yeah, parts of this are tongue in cheek, but I feel that there is some potential in this build. While I could probably make a halfling fighter that could get Spring Attack, Arcane Strike, and an Improved Familiar by the same level, it would feel like more of a stretch, and I'd have to comb through books looking for a trait that gives a progressing Spell-like Ability. Although I guess Weapon Specialization is just as good until level 10.

Seriously though, people need to stop saying the rogue is fine because they played one once and it was fun. I played Monopoly once and it was fun, but that doesn't make it a good game. It's a terrible game.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Mapleswitch's Heretic:

Wis 12, Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Cha 7

(Favored Class Rogue) Human (+2 dex) L4 +1 dex,

5d8+20 hp, +10 ranged, +8 melee (2 ranged attacks =

+8/+8, 3 ranged attacks = +6/+6/+6 ), Fort +5, Ref

+8, Will +4, AC 18, CMB +4, CMD 15

Level 5 Rogue/Level 1 Heretic (Inquisitor

Archetype)

Feats: Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot,

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Blinkback Belt (5kg), 4 MW Daggers (1,208g),

Mithral Chain Shirt (1,100g), MW Thieve’s Tools

(100g)
8,592 g remaining

Abilities: Judgment (Escape: shoot them in the face

and rehide at no penalty), Lore of Escape (+wis to

Bluff and Stealth), Hide Tracks (enemies receive -5

to finding my tracks), Stern Gaze (+1

intimidate/sense motive), Domain, Orisons, 3d6

Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +1, Evasion,

Uncanny Dodge, Combat Focus (Point Blank Shot), 1

other Rogue Talent

Domain: Ambush (create concealment to hide in)

Orisons: Create Water, Detect Magic, Acid Splash,

Light
L1 Spell: Cure Light Wounds, True Strike (2 L1

spells/day)

Skills: (1 rank) Climb (+5), Swim (+5), Intimidate

(+3), Survival (+5), Knowledge (arcana,

dungeoneering, nature, planes, religion) + 6
(6 ranks) Perception (+10), Stealth (+14), UMD

(+7), Disable Device (+15)

I recommend 3 attacks until you have to roll a 16

or better, then 2 attacks instead. If you have to

roll at 20 to hit with 2 attacks, might as well lob

a 3rd.

Blave's Half Orc Scout Rogue:
The scout

archetype was already mentioned and I think it

works decent enough with the right build.

Half-Orc. Trade Ferocity for a bite attack (or

sacred tattoo and get a bite from another source

like a trait). The bite attack is for another

chance of inflicting sneak damage on a full attack.
Strength build. STR 16(+2 race), DEX 14, CON 14,

INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 7
Use a two-handed weapon (falchion/greataxe).

Feats:
1. Dodge
2. Weapon training: Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
4. Combat Trick: Furious Focus
5. Mobility
6. Offensive Defense
7. Spring attack

At level 8 you can use a charge or spring attack to

get a free sneak attack. Spring attack is preferred

because you can use the movement after the attack

to get into flanking position without provoking

AoOs. Power Attack without penalty is great for

that too and helps with sneak immune foes. Mobility

is useful when charging enemies with reach. As soon

as you are in flanking position, full attack away

with axe+bite. The bite won't hit too often but

it's damage from a flank will be nice with sneak

attack.

Equipment wise, you should go for the highest

possible movement per round, i.e. light armor (or

mithral medium) and boots of striding and springing

or boots of haste.

You're still a glass cannon, but at least you can

sneak attack with reasonable ease and your damage

isn't laughable when you can't. Also no 2-weapon

penalties.
Mobility and Offensive Defense should help your

survival.

flamethrower49's Swashbuckler/Scout via awp382:

Fridthjofr
CN Male Human Vargr 7 (Swashbuckler/Scout)
Medium Size
Strength 20
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 12
Charisma 10

Attack – Unarmed Strike +11 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1

Magic) for 1d3+6 (+5 Str, +1 Magic)
Or Cold Iron Battleaxe +11 for 1d8+6 or +10 for

1d8+8 (two-hand grip)
Or Sling +9 for 1d6+6
Hit Points 7d8+14+4 = 56
Initiative +5 (+3 Dex, +2 Trait)
Speed 30 Feet
AC 22 (+5 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Shield, +1 Natural, +1

Deflection, +1 Dodge)
Fortitude +6 (+2 Base, +2 Con, +2 Resistance)
Reflex +10 (+5 Base, +3 Dex, +2 Resistance)
Will +5 (+2 Base, +1 Wis, +2 Resistance) (+2 Morale

vs Fear)
CMB +11 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Magic)
CMD 25 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +1

Dodge)

Traits:
Chance Savior (+2 Initiative)
Armor Expert (-1 to Armor Check Penalty)

Feat and Talent scheme:
1: Sap Adept (+2 damage per sneak attack die if

nonlethal and bludgeoning.)
H1: Dodge (+1 AC)
2: Talent: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)

(Improved Unarmed Strike)
3: Knockout Artist (+1 damage per sneak attack die

if unarmed nonlethal to someone denied their

dexterity bonus.)
4: Talent: Ninja Trick (Style Master - Crane Style)

(-2 Attack, +4 AC if fighting defensively.)
5: Sap Master (Double sneak attack dice if

nonlethal bludgeoning to someone flat-footed.)
6: Talent: Combat Trick (Outflank) (+4 to flank

with someone else with this feat. Free attack on a

crit!)
H2: Talent: Offensive Defense (+AC equal to sneak

attack dice after a sneak attack.)
7: Crane Wing (Block a melee attack 1/round while

using Crane Style)

Class Features
Sneak Attack 4d6
Martial Training – May take the Combat Trick twice.

Proficient with battleaxe.
Evasion – No damage on a successful reflex save.
Daring - +2 to Acrobatics checks and Will saves

against fear.
Scout’s Charge – Opponents are treated as flat-

footed on a charge.

Jason MF Kip's Halfling Rogue:

For the record: Master Sawatashi Hasegawa

CG Halfling Rogue 10

10 Str
25 Dex (19, +2 levels (4,8), +4 item)
12 Con
16 Int (14, +2 item)
10 Wis
10 Cha

AC: 20 (10 +2 Armor, +7 Dex, +1 Size) (+1 against

larger foes)
HP: 63
Fort: +5
Reflex: +14
Will : +4 (+1 Trait)
Initiative: +9 (+7 Dex, +2 trait)
BAB: 7/2
Speed: 30ft.
CMD:+6 (+8 against Disarm)
CMB: +23 (+25 against Disarm)

Pile o' Skills::

Acrobatics +15
Appraise +13
Bluff +8
Diplomacy +9
Disable +15
Disguise +8
Escape artist +15
Knowledge(Arcana) +13
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +15
Knowledge(Local) +15
Knowledge(Nature)+12
Knowledge(Planes)+12
Knowledge(Religion)+12
Perception +10
Sense Motive +4
Sleight of Hand +25 (+5 item)
Stealth +19
UMD +13 (Headband Skill)
Feats/Rogue Talents::

1: Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Sap Adept
4: Improved Steal (from Archetype)
4: Ninja Trick: Deflect Arrows
5: Sap Master
6: Ninja Trick: Combat Style: Kirin Style
7: Combat Expertise
8: Greater Steal
8: Combat Talent: Improved Disarm
9: Kirin Strike
10: Weapon Snatcher

Relevant Gear::
+1 Brawling Silken Ceremonial Armor
+3 Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes
+0 Agile, Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists
Headband of Int +2
Belt of Dex +4
Gloves of Larceny
Boots of the Cat
Swarmbane Clasp

Relevant Combat Numbers::
Melee: Unarmed Strike +20/+15 (+7/2 BAB, +7 DEX, +2

Brawling, +3 Bodywrap, +1 Size); 1d2 + 12 (+7 Dex,

+2 Brawling, +3 Bodywrap)

NOTE: The bodywrap can only be used on two unarmed

strikes per round. If I make both iteratives,

Attacks of opportunity are at +17, for 1d2+9.

Kirin Strike: If I have successfully identified a

creature with a Knowledge check, I can add an

additional +6 damage to a single strike.

Sneak Attack (Lethal): 5d6
Sneak Attack (Nonlethal): 10d6+10

Disarm: +27 (Weapon Snatcher)
Steal: +29

Ranged: +1 Merciful Sling +16; 1d3 damage
(Slinging from invisibility allows for Sap Master

to trigger.)

CWheezy's Sanctified Swashbuckler:

Rogue Man
Human Rogue (Sanctified Rogue, Swashbuckler) 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +6 Dex,

+1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 103 (10d8+50)
Fort +11, Ref +15, Will +11; +3 morale bonus vs.

fear
Defensive Abilities rogue talents (combat trick,

combat trick, defensive roll [1/day], finesse

rogue, improved evasion), evasion, improved

evasion; Resist daring
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile sap +13/+8 (1d6+7) and
+1 agile sap +13/+8 (1d6+4)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +14/+9

(1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats Great Fortitude, Improved Two-weapon

Fighting, Iron Will, Sap Adept, Sap Master,

Toughness, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,

Weapon Focus (sap)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +22, Bluff +13, Climb +5,

Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +17, Escape Artist

+19, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge

(local) +9, Perception +15, Stealth +19, Swim +5,

Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common
SQ divine epiphany
Other Gear +1 Mithral Kikko armor, +1 Adaptive

Composite longbow (Str +0), +1 Agile Sap, +1 Agile

Sap, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical

might (Dex & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +2, Decoy

ring, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of

protection +1, 2968 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Decoy ring If withdraw/helpless, invisible 3 rds

and 4 illusory decoys run in opposite directions.
Defensive Roll (1/day) (Ex) When reduced below 0 Hp

by an attack, can attempt to halve dam with Reflex

save.
Divine Epiphany (CL 10) (1/day) (Su) Use augury

once per day.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for

half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex

save for half damage, you take none instead. If you

fail you take half damage.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when

dealing nonlethal damage
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your

target or your target is
I went the sap master route, which means his dpr

when not flanking is an amazing: 14.18.

That is pretty bad! BUT all is not lost here! The

swashbuckler archetype gives a morale bonus to

acrobatics checks, which is pretty nice. The

monster creation guide does not list an average

cmd, so I am going to use the Fire Giant. It's cmd

I beat on a 3, so I can flank pretty well!

When Rogue Man is flanking, his dpr jumps to:

124.36 (!!!) This is actually comparable to a

paladin smiting and full attacking an evil

outsider, and almost enough to incapacitate the

giant in one round.

Note: The dpr comes from the 10d6 sneak attack and

the flat +20 damage from sap adept and sap master.

Not only that damage, but Rogue Man has ok saves

and a variety of useful face skills! While he is

anaemic on his own, he shines with aid. His single

attack dpr when flanking is pretty good, at 46.92.

The main drawback here is that it is nonlethal

damage, which I actually don't find to be a

drawback, as in my games I often want enemies alive

for multiple reasons. It doesn't work against

constructs an undead, but then you are just equal

to a regular rogue in terms of sneak attack damage,

so it ends up not being an issue.

CWheezy's CORRECTED Sanctified Rogue:

Rogue Man
Human Rogue (Sanctified Rogue, Swashbuckler) 10
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +6 Dex,

+1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 93 (10d8+40)
Fort +9, Ref +15, Will +9; +3 morale bonus vs. fear
Defensive Abilities rogue talents (combat trick,

combat trick, defensive roll [1/day], finesse

rogue, improved evasion), evasion, improved

evasion; Resist daring
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile sap +13/+8 (1d6+7) and
+1 agile sap +13 (1d6+4)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +14/+9

(1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats Dazzling Display, Enforcer, Sap Adept, Sap

Master, Shatter Defenses, Skill Focus (Acrobatics),

Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus

(sap)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +28, Bluff +8, Climb +5,

Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +21, Escape Artist

+19, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7,

Knowledge (local) +7, Perception +15, Stealth +19,

Swim +5, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common
SQ divine epiphany
Other Gear +1 Mithral Kikko armor, +1 Adaptive

Composite longbow (Str +0), +1 Agile Sap, +1 Agile

Sap, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical

might (Dex & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +2, Decoy

ring, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of

protection +1, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 2868 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Daring +3 (Ex) +3 save vs. fear.
Dazzling Display (Sap) Intimidate check to

demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Decoy ring If withdraw/helpless, invisible 3 rds

and 4 illusory decoys run in opposite directions.
Defensive Roll (1/day) (Ex) When reduced below 0 Hp

by an attack, can attempt to halve dam with Reflex

save.
Divine Epiphany (CL 10) (1/day) (Su) Use augury

once per day.
Enforcer If you deal nonlethal damage with a melee

weapon, make a free Intimidate check to demoralize.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for

half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex

save for half damage, you take none instead. If you

fail you take half damage.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when

dealing nonlethal damage
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your

target or your target is flat-footed.
The dc to intimidate a fire giant is pretty low,

only 19, so a +13 intimidate will do the job.

Midnighter's Knife Master Rogue:

Here is my 2 cents on a working Rogue build.

Granted I had to dip 2 levels into Fighter (Lore

Master) to get the necessary feats early enough. I

am only listing the feats by level so you can fill

in race, stats, traits, etc as you see fit. The

final four levels are open as well as few games

ever get that far.

Rogue (Knife Master)
1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
3 Improved Initiative

Fighter (Lore Master)
4 Quick Draw
5 Wave Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint

Rogue (Knife Master)
6 Weapon Focus (Weapon Training)
7 Two Weapon Feint
8 Greater Feint (Combat Trick)
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Befuddling Strike
11 Improved Disarm
12 Disarming Strike (Advanced Talent: Feat)
13 Critical Focus
14 Improved Evasion
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Opportunist
17
18 (Advanced Talent)
19
20 (Advanced Talent)

The build assumes dual wielding Kukris to get the

max crit range and bonus sneak attack damage from

the Knife Master archetype. Agile and Keen weapon

enchants are highly recommended asap.

Combat is centered around the feint, with Wave

Strike allowing for a feint as a Swift action, and

Greater Feint assuring the target is flat-footed

until my next turn. Assuming the feint succeeds,

each attack that hits will also deal Sneak Attack

damage (if target type allows).

[edit]

Added Two Weapon Feint to allow for feints after

the first round (I knew there was a reason for

going TWF).

Wraithstrikes Ranger/Rogue not really valid for the discussion but worthwhile to make comparisons with:

ranger 5 rogue 6
Dwarf Ranger (Guide) 6/Rogue 6
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +5(7 in favored terrain; Senses darkvision 60

ft.;
Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 16, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +3 Dex,

+2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 94 (6d10+6d8+24)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to

resist damage from suffocation), Ref +16 (+2 bonus

vs. traps), Will +14; +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells

and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion,

trap sense, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 dwarven urgosh +14/+9 (1d6+6/19-20x3) and
. . +2 keen +15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20x3)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks hatred, ranger's focus, rogue

talents (fast stealth, ledge walker, positioning

attack [1/day]), sneak attack +3d6
Ranger (Guide) Spells Prepared (CL 3rd;

concentration +7):
1st (2/day)—lead blades, longstrider
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 31 (31 vs. bull rush, 31

vs. trip)

Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Improved

Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Lunge, Steel Soul,

Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dwarven urgosh)

Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+7 jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to

determine the price of nonmagic items with precious

metals or gemstones), Bluff +4, Climb +12,

Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +21, Disguise +6,

Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Heal +10, Intimidate +3,

Perception +23 (+26 to locate traps, +25 while in

??? terrain, +25 while in urban terrain, +25 to

notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden

doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +2, Sense

Motive +18, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +16 (+18 while

in ??? terrain, +18 while in urban terrain),

Survival +18 (+20 while in ??? terrain, +20 while

in urban terrain, +21 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to

resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored

terrain (urban +2), greed, hardy, slow and steady,

stability, stonecunning, terrain bond, track,

trapfinding +3, wild empathy

Other Gear +3 Mithral Agile breastplate, +1

Composite longbow (Str +5), +1 Keen Kukri, +2 Keen

Kukri, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of giant

strength +4, ???, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband

of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +2, eyes

of the eagle, thieves kit 3084 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Boots of friendly terrain ([???]) Gain a Favored

Terrain or increase bonus by 2 if already have

same.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black

and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs

monsters of the Giant subtype.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and

ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for

half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while

using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs

Favored Terrain (Urban).
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price

of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or

gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects

Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and

Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs

Goblinoids/Orcs.
Ledge Walker (Ex) No penalty to use Acrobatics to

move full speed on narrow surfaces & not flat

footed.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC

for 1 rd.
Positioning Attack (1/day) (Ex) When hit a foe in

melee, move up to 30 ft without AoO, but must end

adjacent to that foe.
Ranger's Focus +4 (2/day) (Ex) +4 to hit and damage

focused target.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified

by encumbrance.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your

target or your target is flat-footed.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip

while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like

abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual

stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Terrain Bond (Ex) Allies within LOS and hearing

gain +2 Initiative, Perception, Stealth, Survival

and don't leave tracks within your favored terrain.
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks

made to track.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC

against traps.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable

traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when

flat-footed.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an

animal, as if using Diplomacy.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered

Trademarks of LWD Technology,

Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are

trademarks of Paizo Publishing,

LLC®, and are used under license.

I will try to get some DRP numbers up.

I will look at

DPR-no class features, and no flanking.

DRP with flanking and sneak attack

DPR with ranger's focus

DPR with ranger's focus, and flanking and sneak

attack.

I will either edit this post or make another

comment. I doubt it will take an hour so I should

editing this post in 30 minutes or so.

edit: I will also look at perception and stealth

checks and how that stack up against CR=character

level creatures equivalent creatures.

Taladars's short and sweet scout bow rogue:

My build for a Rogue (Scout) with a bow

1 Improved Initiative
2 (Combat Trick) Point Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Deadly Aim
9 Vital Strike
15 Improved Vital Strike
17 Improved Precise Shot

Gear: longbow, wand (gravity bow), greater bracers

of archery, greater sniper goggles

Start with a shortbow, as soon as you get the

bracers switch to a longbow. Use UMD to buff

yourself with gravity bow. Focus on dex to push

your initiave and catch foes flatfooted in the

first round. As soon as you're level 8, move at

least 10ft during combat and stay away from

enemies. You get only one shot each round, but you

still do a lot of d6's damage (+deadly aim

+goggles).

Leonardo's Sanctified poisoner archer:

Human Poisoner Sancified Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP: 10d8 +10
AC: 19 (10 +8 dex +1 armor)
Touch: 19; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +16, Will +5
BAB +7; CMB +11 ; CMD 29
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed + (Purple Worm

poison - contact For=DC26 1d3str, frequency 1/round

12 rounds, cure: 2 consecutive saves)
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the

City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point

Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception),

Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow

sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon

Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.

Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)

Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of

+4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of

he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence

+1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.

STR Ranger's oatmeal raisin cookie:

Brute/Scout Half-Orc Rogue
TRADE ferocity for SACRED TATTOO
(Start with at least 18 STR)
Str 16+2 put at least 2 points in here at 4 and 8.
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (your 3rd bump at 12 here is good.)
Wis 11
Cha 7

Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime

lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard

or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away

people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate

checks.(Adds to your racial+2)

There is another trait that let's you use INT for

UMD Checks. Take that.

Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1 SA 1d6, Frightening, Intimidating Prowess
2 Weapon Training- Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3 Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Brutal Beating
4 Befuddling Strike, Scouts Charge
5 Power Attack, SA 3d6
6 Combat trick: Cornugon Smash
7 Blindfight, SA 4d6
8 Offensive Defence, Skirmisher
9 Shatter Defences, SA 5d6
10 Crippling Strike or bleeding Attack
11 Combat Expertise, SA 6d6
12 Fast Tumble
13 Moonlight Stalker, SA 7d6
14 Oppourtunist
15 Extra Rogue Talent: Skill Mastery (Acrobatics,

Stealth, Perception), SA 8d6
16 Defensive Roll
17 Critical Focus, SA 9d6
18 Feat: Blinding Critical
19 Feat, SA 10d6
20 Talent, Master Strike

*Honorable Mention: Hide in plain sight. If your

game is predominantly played in one dominant

environment you must take this.

Why this rogue kicks ass!!!
Ok so this guy has a few things going for him.

1. He debuff the crap out of enemies. Between

dropping shaken, sickened, flat-footed, befuddled

and offensive defense he excels at making foes miss

him, while he SA's their punk a$$. They are sucking

-6 to Attack the rogue and -2 and no Dex to AC, -2

to saves. And they are trying to hit a foe with his

SA dice added to his AC. You have to choose between

Befuddling and Offensive defense but that's what

Iterative attacks are for.

2. He SA's, all the time. Anytime he moves 10 feet

or more. Sure there is flanking, but by level 9 he

doesn't need one (Shatter Defences make demoralized

foes flat-footed.) If he is moving less than 10

feet that means he is 5ft, stepping and SA full

attacking a Shatter Defences target.

3. Damage. SA all the time plus high Str power

attack. Plus Moonlight Stalker.

4. Reliable to hit. The daredevil boots, not

sucking a twf penalty, Moonlight Stalker are a nice

bunch of regular buffs the rogue can bring to his

own fight.

How does he Scout and Live?
This guy Stealth like a normal Scout. Out front

with no light source (Darkvision) as soon as you

get spotted or you spot something, you use a Wand

of Blur. (Grants concealment, turning on Moonlight

Stalker!)
Choose if you wanna charge a lone foe with a SA

Cornugon Smash (drops SA, Shaken, Sickened and

Offensive Defence on the first hit)
Or Stealth back and warn the party.

Nico's Lorewarden/Rogue multiclass:

Half-orc
Lore warden 2 / Scout 8.
=== Stats ===
Str 18 (22),Dex 14,con 14 ,Int 13,Wis 12, Cha 10
=== Defense ===
AC: 20 (+6 armor, +1 def, +1 nat +2 dex)
Touch AC:
Hp: 81 (2d10+8d8+30)
CMD: 27

=== Saves ===
Fort: +11
Ref : +12 (plus evasion)
Will: +10
=== Attacks ===
Vital strike

+2 silversheen greatsword + vital strike: +18

(4d6+20 19-20/x2)

Best case escenari: lead blades + vital strike +

sneak attack

+2 silversheen greatsword + vital strike: +18

(10d6+20 19-20/x2)

=== Traits ===
Indomitable will
reactionary
=== Feats And rogue talents===
1. Power attack, Iron will
2. Furious focus, combat expertise
3. Improved feint
4. Offensive defense
5. cornugon smash
6. Minor magic (acid splash
7. Combat trick (Greater feint)
8. Rogue talent (weapon focus)
9. Vital strike
10. Rogue talent (Intimidating prowess)
=== Skills ===
Perception: +19
Intimidate: +24
Bluff: +16
Diplomacy: +11
UMD: +16
Stealth: +20
ACrobatics: +15
Disable device: +11
Swim: +10
Climb: +10

=== Special ===
Darkvision 60 ft
Sacred Tattoo
Intimidating
Sneak attack +4d6
Evasion
Trapfinding
Trap sense

=== Gear ===
+2 silversheen greatsword
+2 Mihral Shadowed chianshirt
+2 cloack of resistance
+4 belt of str
+1 ring of protection
+1 Amulet of natural armor
+1 cracked pale green prism Ioun stone (attacks)
+1 cracked pale green prism Ioun stone (saves)
Elven boots
Eyes of the eagle
Circlet of persuation

Wand of vanish
Wand of cure light wound
Wand of shield
Wand of lead blades

Daelan's Master of MAny rogues:

20 point buy

level 12

Halfling Master of Many Styles Monk 2/Rogue 10(I

don't think an archetype would make this any

better)

Traits: Reactionary (Does any Rogue player NOT take

this?)
Master of the Sudden Strike

Str 12
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 9

Monk 1: Crane Style, Stunning Fist, Cautious

Fighter, Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Crane Wing
Rogue 1: Weapon Finesse
Rogue 2: Combat Trick: (Martial Weapon Proficiency:

Scimitar)
Rogue 3: Dervish Dance
Rogue 4: Befuddling Strike
Rogue 5: Uncanny Defense
Rogue 6: Weapon Training: Scimitar
Rogue 7: Outflank
Rogue 8: Positioning Attack
Rogue 9: Blundering Defense
Rogue 10: Opportunist

Important equipment: Scimitar, Monk's Robes,

anything that helps stealth or perception, or your

saves or AC (including boosts to Wisdom and Dex)

Important skills: Stealth, Perception, Perform:

Dance (only need the 2 ranks), Acrobatics, the rest

are up to you

Speaking of Saves (Without extra equipment)

Fort: +9
Ref: +16
Will: +9 (+11 vs Fear)

AC: 17 without equipment, +5 Dodge Bonus when

fighting defensively or taking total defense (which

you should be doing always) for a typical naked AC

of 22, FFAC of 22 or 10(Uncanny Dodge) Touch AC of,

you guessed it, 22. Monk's Robes raise those all up

by +1, and if you're completely naked you're doing

it wrong anyway.

This turned out to be a more defensive build than I

originally anticipated as I started writing this,

but its one I'd personally love to play. Moving

things around so that Two Weapon Fighting can be

achieved and you can mix Scimitar and kicks might

be fun too, but I'm not sure where I'd place it

yet. Also would like to include Improved

Initiative, but perhaps a +7 is enough until a spot

opens.

EDIT: Changed saves, having forgotten about

Halfling save bonuses.

Lord Malkov 1:

Dwarf Rogue(Scout)

Str: 20 (2 race, 2 levels, 2 belt)
Dex: 16 (1 levels, 2 belt)
Con: 18 (2 race 2 belt)
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (-2 race)

Feats/Talents:

1:Bludgeoner
2:Weapon Training(Focus Dwarven Longhammer)
3:Sap Adept
4:Combat Trick(Power Attack)
5:Sap Master
6:Offensive Defense
7:Power Attack
8:Strong Impression
9:Vital Strike
10:Feat: Steel Soul
11:Enforcer
12:Entanglement of Blades

Items:
+2 Impact Dwarven Hammer
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Feather step slippers
Items can and will vary. There is a bunch of money

left here because I'm lazy.

Defense:
HP: 117 (12d8+48con+12favored)
AC: 24
Fort: +11(+15sp) Ref: +14(+18sp) Will: +8(+12sp)

Offense:

Skirmisher Vital Strike Attack (non-lethal):
Attack Bonus: +19 (+9 BAB, +5 str, +1 focus, +2

weapon, +2 headband, -0 furious focus)
Damage: 18d6+42, 105 avg. (3d6 weapon, 3d6 vital

strike, 6d6 sneak attack, 6d6 sap master, +24 sap

adept, +7 strength, +9 power attack, +2 weapon)

There you go, pure knockout master. Non-lethal

damage works against pretty much anything that is

alive, and if it doesn't there are fair odds that

you aren't getting sneak attack either.

Lord Malkov 2: The Swordlordening:

Now for Build number 2, which is a build I have

actually used.

Human Rogue 11, Swordlord 1

Str:10
Dex:24 (2 race, 2 levels, 4 belt)
Con:14
Int:14 (1 level)
Wis:10
Cha:14 (2 ioun stone)

Feats/Talents:
Human: Exotic Weapon Prof. Aldori Dueling Sword
1: Combat Expertise
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Improved Feint
4: Weapon Training(Focus Aldori Dueling Sword)
5: Dazzling Display
6: Offensive Defense
7: Hero's Display
8: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9: PrC Swordlord (deft strike, dueling mastery)

Performing Combatant
10: Back to rogue
11: Dramatic Display, Feat Talent (Masterful

Display)
12: -

Items:
+2 Cruel Aldori Dueling Sword
Belt of Dex +4
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Green Sphere Ioun Stone
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Boots of Springing and Striding
Circlet of Persuasion
Items can and will vary. There is a bunch of money

left here because I'm lazy again.

Relevant Skill Bonuses:
Feint: +22 (+12 ranks, +3 trained, +3 circlet, +2

headband, +2 cha)
Intimidate: +20 (+12 ranks, +3 trained, +3 circlet,

+2 charisma)
Combat Performance +12 (+3 circlet, +2 cha, +2 BAB,

+3 perform ranks, +2 feat)

Defense:
HP: 94 (11d8+1d10+24con+12favored)
AC: 30 (+7 shirt, +7 dex, +2 dueling mastery, +2

ring, +2 ammy)
AC with Offensive D.: 36
Fort: +8 Ref: +18 Will: +6

Offense:
BAB: +9/+4
The goal is to feint (+22), then perform (+12), to

intimidate all within 30ft (+20), and activate

dramatic display at the same time. This costs a

Move and a Swift.

Then Attack:
Attack: +20 (+7 dex, +2 sword, +1 focus, +2

headband, +2 dramatic display, -3 expertise)
Damage: 1d8+6d6+9, Avg 35 (1d8, +6d6 SA, +7 dex, +2

sword)
Riders: Target has defenses shattered, target is

sickened, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC from

offensive defense, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC

from combat expertise (Ac is now 39)
---------------------------------------------------

---------------------
At higher levels
the progression continues with these:
13:Dodge, Ninja Trick (Improved Unarmed Strike)
14:
15:Crane Style, Ninja Trick (Crane Wing)

So at level 15, assuming that you are doing the

exact same thing as before, with a +1 better armor,

ring and amulet, you can fight defensively and

offensive defense to get up to a 45 AC with a free

deflect on the first successful hit.

Spoiler:

[spoiler=Chainsaw Sam loses the Squirtgun wars]
Pathfinder is a team based game, so which classes

are "best" depends entirely on the players at the

table.

The best team composition for a Rogue is when your

group consists of two Street Samurai (with

secondary focus on face skills and infiltration), a

Combat Mage, and a Rigger whom all decide to take a

break and play through an Adventure Path for a

couple months.

You of course don't have any fancy dice because

Dungeons and Dragons is "for nerds," but the Rigger

was nice enough to lend you an ugly, difficult to

read twenty sided dice and "nerd" roleplaying is

better than no roleplaying so you decide to give it

a go.

Human Rogue (scout) 10

ABILITY SCORES
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

FEATS/TALENTS
(1) - Two Weapon Fighting, [Open Feat]
(2) - Finesse Rogue
(3) - Weapon Focus (Short Sord)
(4) - Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
(5) - Two Weapon Feint
(6) - Offensive Defense, (bonus) Imp Two Weapon

Fighting
(7) - Imp Two Weapon Feint
(8) - [Open Talent]
(9) - [Open Feat]
(10) - Hunter's Surprise

GEAR
+1 Frost, Flaming Short Sword
+1 Acid, Shock Short Sword
Meh, Other stuff

NOTES
Just take average HP every level after 1st and hope

no one asks questions.

What this build is awesome at is using those stacks

of D6s you've got laying around from years of

playing Shadowrun. With just those and your

borrowed ugly D20 you're good to go, no other silly

polyhedrals needed.

You're used to rolling a fistful of D6s for even

the most simple interactions and this is probably

the build that will come closest to getting your

fix.

A club and Sap Master would get you more D6s, but

if you wanted to NOT kill things you'd go outside

and get some sunlight. It's already bad enough your

Street Sam partner has replaced himself with a

short, hairy toed dork so you might as well get

some blood on your hands rather than playing

'Dungeons and Teaparties' like the Sap Masters on

the internet insist on doing.

You wont roll quite as many six siders as your

tricked out Street Sam uses to machinegun people to

death, but you'll get a good handful a couple times

a round if you play your cards right. It's not

much, but it should be enough to keep 'the shakes'

from coming back long enough for your friends to

return to dreary Seattle.

Your Combat Mage is going to harp on you nonstop

for not taking an Agile enchant, try to ignore

him.

[spoiler=Wraithkin, unrelated to Wraithstrike]
play a modified version of this in PFS. Yes, I

live, often playing up and inadvertently tanking.

People love the character. It might already be

posted but whatever. He is raging and power

attacking. You can move stuff around to make him

less min-maxed.

Oh, he sneaks on cleave, on knockout, on charge, on

10' movement, or on flank.

I suggest waiting on one feat and get Raging

Vitality. I just did this for the ten.

Sneak when using weapon and non-lethal is 8d8+16 +4

Bleed in addition to his base of 1d10+27.

You could also go earthbreaker. Just pick one, crit

range or crit multiplier.

Agronak
Male Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Rogue (Scout, Skulking

Slayer) 8
CN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent;

Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +1

natural, +1 deflection)
hp 107 (2d12+8d8+48)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +3 adamantine heavy flail +18/+13

(1d10+27/19-20)
Special Attacks bold strike, rage, rage powers

(scent), scout's charge, shifty, skirmisher, sneak

attack
+4d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 28
Feats Bludgeoner, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Power

Attack, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Surprise Follow-
Through
Traits deadeye, veteran of battle
Skills Acrobatics -1 (+3 jump), Bluff +6, Climb

+14, Disable Device +7, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1,
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (local)

+13, Knowledge (nature) +13, Perception +20 (+22 to
find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps),

determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a

potion by
taste), Ride -1, Stealth -1, Swim +13; Racial

Modifiers pass for human, scavenger
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement, rogue talents (bleeding attack

+4, combat trick, surprise follow-through, trap

spotter),
underhanded maneuvers
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier

(1/day); Other Gear +2 Mithral Agile breastplate,

+3
Adamantine Heavy flail, Amulet of natural armor +1,

Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +2,
Eyes of the eagle, Ring of protection +1, 1085 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bleeding Attack +4 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 4

bleed damage/round.
Bludgeoner Inflict nonlethal damage with

bludgeoning weapons
Bold Strike (Ex) Sneak attack uses d8 when you

charge with a two-handed weapon.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target

at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent

is knocked out
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black

and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for

half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless

heavily loaded.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate

to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an

immediate
action.
Pass for Human +4 (Ex) +4 to disguise checks to

conceal half-orc heritage, with no penalty to

appear as
another race.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your

attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will

saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when

dealing nonlethal damage
Scavenger +2 Perception to find hidden objects

(inc. secret doors and traps), determine if food is

spoiled
or identify a potion by taste.
Scent (Ex) While raging, you gain the scent

ability.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by

sense of smell.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak

attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Shifty +4 (Ex) +½ rogue level to Bluff checks to

feint.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack

deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-

footed.
Sneak Attack +4d6 +4d6 damage if you flank your

target or your target is flat-footed.
Surprise Follow-Through When you are using Cleave,

your second foe is denied its Dex bonus.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a

trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when

flat-footed.
Underhanded Maneuvers +4/+6 Perform a dirty trick

or steal maneuver when you could sneak attack.
Veteran of Battle +1 Initiative, draw a weapon as a

free action during the surprise round.

Midnighter dips fighter a lot:

Here is a slightly different build still centered

around using feint to keep an opponent flat-footed.

Select race, traits, stats to taste. Keep in mind

that the feat build assumes Darkvision and/or Low-

light Vision is available.

Skills are also not listed. Keep in mind it is a

feint build which works off of Bluff.

I dipped heavily into fighter this time, mainly to

get Weapon Training. With 5 levels already

committed I saw no reason not to get the extra

feat/BAB by taking an additional fighter level.

I switched the feint catalyst to Moonlight Stalker

this go around thanks to STR Ranger reminding me

the effectiveness of Blur for gaining concealment

(for some reason I was stuck on my shadowy tiefling

casting darkness for concealment). As STR Ranger

noted, with a wand of Blur, or better yet a Cloak

of Displacement (minor), the Moonlight Stalker

chain is pretty sweet.

Fighter (Lore Warden) 6/Rogue (Knife Master) 14

Rogue
1 Improved Initiative
2 Weapon Finesse (Finesse Rogue)
3 Two Weapon Fighting
4 Weapon Focus: Kukri (Weapon Training)

Fighter
5 Blind Fight, Moonlight Stalker
6 Combat Expertise (Lore Warden bonus), Improved

Feint

Rogue
7 Moonlight Stalker Feint
8 Greater Feint (Combat Trick)

Fighter
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Weapon Specialization

Rogue
11 Improved Disarm
12 Befuddling Strike

Fighter
13 Disarming Strike, Weapon Training 1
14 Critical Focus

Rogue
15 [Feat]
16 [Advanced Talent]
17 [Feat]
18 [Advanced Talent]
19 [Feat]
20 [Advanced Talent]

So what we have is a concealed Rogue, using a swift

action to feint (Moonlight Stalker Feint), causing

the target to be flat-footed until the beginning of

the Rogue's next turn (Greater Feint). With a high

amount of attacks, all doing multiple d8 (Knife

Master) damage, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon

Training (Gloves of Dueling ftw), the +hit/+dmg is

going to be respectable (against the right targets

of course).


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Chainsaw Sam's full rogue moonlight stalker:

Figured I'd put together a full Rogue based

on Moonlight Stalker and related feats. Kept stats

pretty simple so people can adjust as they want.

Requires special vision. I'd prefer Half Elf, Half

Orc, or Elf to keep movement up.

I drew the build up as a Half-Elf for the sake of

simplicity while doing Abilities and left the Skill

Focus (likely Bluff) off for convenience of anyone

trying to adapt the build. Adjust fire as

necessary.

FULL ROGUE MOONLIGHT STALKER

Half-Elf Rogue 10 (Scout/Dagger Master)

ABILITIES
STR 10
DEX 18 (Levels 20, Belt 22)
CON 14 (belt 16)
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

FEATS/TALENTS
(1) - Two Weapon Fighting
(2) - Finesse Rogue
(3) - Blind Fight
(4) - Combat Expertise
(5) - Moonlight Stalker
(6) - Offensive Defense
(7) - Moonlight Stalker Feint
(8) - [OPEN TALENT]
(9) - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
(10)- Skill Mastery - Bluff/UMD/Acrobatics + 2

GEAR
Cloak of Displacement (minor) 12k
+3 Chain Shirt 9k
+1 Agile Dagger 8k
+1 Agile Dagger 8k
+2 Ring of Protection 8k
+2 Belt of DEX/CON 10k

Minimum gear is 55k giving you a bit of breathing

room (wands, scrolls, potions, etc). Not having a

cloak of resistance is going to suck. I think you

could put Resistance +2 on a ring for 6k? Not sure.

AC 25 (Armor 7, Dex 6, Deflection 2)

Hit: 16 (BAB 7, DEX 6, Enhancement 1, Moonlight

Stalker 2)
Full Attack: 14/14/9/9
Damage: 1d4 + 7 (5d8 sneak)

20% concealment, gets to Reroll concealment during

attack. Not great, but nice perks.

Build is *really* tight on Feats/Talents. Would be

a LOT more flexible as a Human with a bonus Feat

and bonus Talent, but that isn't an option.

As far as race choice goes, I think I would lean

towards Elf. Pick up Darkvision racial trait and

maybe swap Elven Magic for Envoy which gives some

pretty decent utility (though Arcane Strike isn't

really an option since Moonlight Stalker Feint

requires a Swift). Half Elf picking up the Drow

Blooded and Dual Mind might be a decent shot too.

In either case, Elven Immunities will help with the

build's weak saves.

Half-Orc is also a decent option, though the build

isn't using Intimidate or fancy weapons.

EDIT: AC was wrong and a couple typos.

I'd like to fiddle with it to make everything work

with Unarmed Strike, but with Straight Rogue it

would delay certain important Feats/Talents.

Replace the Daggers with an Agile AoMF and add a

Brawling Enchant. Wouldn't come together before 10

without a dip in another class.

proftobe copies chainsawsam. Also loses squirtgun wars:

Copied it from lord malkov, but its a great 2

weapon fencer rogue build
doesn't need much str but high dex
Feats
Weapon Finesse (via finesse rogue talent)
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Combat Expertise
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Two Weapon Fighting
Imp Two Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Feint
Hero's Display
Performing Combatant

You can get 3 extra feats along the way from the

Rogue Talents 'Feat' and 'Combat Trick' and 1 for

being human.
The other key rogue talent is Offensive Defense.
Your damage comes entirely from sneak attack.

So the basic plan is to use Two-Weapon Feint to

feint against your target. A successful feint

allows you to make a swift action performance

combat check. Performance combat lets you treat any

combat like a performance, which is why I liked it

for my swashbuckler. With Hero's Display, on a

successful performance check you can make a free

check to Intimidate everyone within 30 ft.

Then you make your attacks against your target.

Your earlier feint made him flat-footed to your

first attack, so you get sneak attack damage. If

this attack hits, it also activates Shatter

Defenses on that target making him flat-footed to

your attacks until the end of your next turn. So

all subsequent attacks also get sneak attack

damage.

It was pretty effective and I had a lot of fun with

it.
Performance checks are a bit tougher early on (it

is a DC 20 charisma check) but you get bonuses if

you have ranks in a perform skill like dance,

(which I also think fits for a fencer) and for a

high BAB.

Key item here is a Circlet of Persuasion which will

give you a +3 competence bonus on Charisma based

checks (only costs 4500gp) this will work for

feints, intimidates AND performance checksIf you

don't care about finding traps you can always take

the Rake archtype as well which will give you a

bonus on bluff checks. This is the way I went. You

also get a fallback sneak attack ability that lets

you intimidate on a sneak attack. I would also put

charisma up to 14 at 8th instead of pumping dex

again.

In the early levels you'll need to rely more on

flanking. The build doesn't truly come together

until level 9 when you take shatter defenses, but

at that point you should have 9 rank in intimidate,

+3 for class skill, +2 for charisma and +3 for

circlet of persuasion. That is +17 to beat 10+ 1/2

HD + wisdom modifier.

At level 10, lets say you have a +4 dexterity belt,

the CoP, and a pair of +1 weapons. That puts you at

24 Dex (+7). Obviously you might have better

weapons at this point, but this is a baseline

example.

So your full attack looks like this
(BAB = +7/+1, Dex +7, TWF -2, Weapon +1, Focus +1)

Rapier = +14/+9
Dagger = +13/+9

The Full Attack Sequence is:
(1) Feint +21 vs 10+BAB+Wisdom Mod. (avg of about

20 at this level so not too hard)(Bluff is 10

ranks, +3 for class skill, +3 for circlet, +2 for

charisma, +3 for rake's smile)

(2) If successful, Performance Check (DC 20). You

get +2 for charisma, +3 for the circlet, +2 for

your BAB, +2 for Hero's Display, and +2 for your

performance ranks. So you need to roll a 9. This

continues to get easier as time goes on.

(3) If successful, make a check to intimidate all

enemies within 30ft. at +18 vs. 10+ 1/2 HD + Wisdom

Mod. (again, avg of about DC 20 at this level).

(3a) If unsuccessful, make your attack against

target's flat-footed AC. On hit, activate Bravado's

Blade spending 2 dice. You will deal 4d6 damage and

make an intimidate check at +23 versus just that

target.

(4) Continue with the rest of your attacks against

the now flat footed target. Each hit will add +5d6

damage and give you a +5 dodge bonus to your armor

class.

In subsequent rounds you can forgo the feint and

just keep intimidating your nearby enemies with

performance and shattering their defenses. The

second full attack against that single target can

result in 22d6+2d4 damage overall, and as you gain

levels past 10, you can start to pick up other

sneak attack talents that let you deal str/dex dmg

or add bleed damage to your hits.

The only struggle for this character is being able

to land hits against heavily armored enemies... but

for me this made sense for a fencer. As you get

higher in level and have access to better weapons

and stat items this does get easier.

Taladars's Whip rogue:

Another Rogue (Scout) build, using a whip (very

specialised this time)

Half-Orc Fighter 1, Rogue (Scout) X
pick the racial trait: city-raised or beastmaster

for weapon proficiency (whips)

1 Fighter Power Attack, Cleave
2 Rogue
3 Rogue Great Cleave, Weapon Training: Weapon Focus

(Whip)
4 Rogue
5 Rogue Whip Mastery, Combat Trick: Surprise

Follow-Through
...
11 Rogue Improved Suprise Follow Through

Focus on Strength and start with a two-handed

weapon. As soon as you're level 5, switch to whip

and shield. The whip gives you a nice range for

your attacks. Use Power Attack only against foes

with low AC. Starting with level 9, move 10ft and

try to use Great Cleave to sneak two foes. When you

reach level 11, try to use Great Cleave to sneak as

many foes as possible.

Gear: get a mithral breastplate and a shield to

negate the -2 AC while using Cleave/Great Cleave.

You can still use Evasion.

Regr's Pony:

I'm currently playing a 7th level halfling

rogue/fighter (Bandit/Sniper_4-Crossbowman_3)

focused on ranged combat in the "Wrath of the

Righteous" campaign path. The main concept is to

optimize the "one shot one kill" tactics which of

course is not possible except on certain

circumstances but so far it is a quite pleasing

concept.
I used from ARG the low blow and swift as shadows

racial traits since the main method of damage is

sniping and confirming the critical ranged attacks

with a crossbow vs everyone larger is quite welcome

with a crossbow (reduce person wand makes wonders

also for me).
For Rogue talents I chose Snapshot (it has perfect

synergy with Bandit) and Sniper's Eye
While planning to get later underhanded for nasty

opening in surprise rounds, surprise attack for

those opponents with special abilities during

surprise round (yes that’s you Diviner Wizard) and

for advanced rogue talent I'll get stealthy sniper.
I plan to get five more levels as fighter somewhere

between 11-13th level for crossbow expert and

improved deadshot yet even with 8 levels of fighter

there are very few feats to spare for an optimized

archery build so I chose to cover my lack of feats

with magic items so my feat progression goes as

follows:

R1st Point Blank Shot
R3rd Deadly Aim
F5th Far Shot, Rapid Reload (bonus – Fighter)
F6th Weapon Focus (Crossbow) (bonus – Fighter)
F7th Vital Strike
-----------------
R9th Extra Rogue Talent (Ninja Trick – Extra Range)
F11th Devastating Strike, Weapon Specialization

(Crossbow) (bonus – Fighter)
F13th Improved Vital Strike (bonus – fighter),

Point Blank Master
R15th Improved Devastating Strike
R17th Critical Focus
R19th Disrupting Shot
F20th Greater Vital Strike (bonus – Fighter)
A total of 12 levels of Rogue and 8 levels of

Fighter
I haven’t mentioned several Rogue Talents (and

advanced) since I haven’t thought about them yet

but as I mentioned earlier I have chosen some magic

items to cover my lack of feats.
-Crossbow enhancements:
Seeking, Distance, Stalking, Keen, +5 Enhancement
-Sniper Goggles (for those cases when real sniping

is needed)
-Wand of Weaponwand
-Wand of Vanish
-Wand of True Strike
-Ghost Touch Bolts +1
-Wand of Reduce Person
-Wand of Gravity Bow
-Bracers of Archery Greater
-Belt of Dexterity

It's a one trick pony alright but most "optimized"

characters are.
IMO by adding some rogue talents that could emulate

other class abilities and by introducing some new

archetypes or revise older ones like the sniper

(pls allow them to snipe with firearms) the rogue

can get the prestige it deserves as one of the main

four classes.

Alex Mack's paw punching kitty:

Here's a first idea for a Catfolk Claw build that

relies on the fact that claws deal bludgeoning and

piercing damage to do silly things with Blade of

Mercy and Sap Adept/Sap Master. By level 8 it has

it's primary schtick set up and before that it can

rely heavily on the super powerful Enforcer/Thug

combo.

Vicious claws combo rather nicely with Sap Master

later on. And once you have Shatter Defenses set up

at level 8 there's no stopping the hurt...

Catfolk Rogue (Thug)

Str 10
Dex 18 (Level increases go here)
Con 14
Wis 12
Int 11
Cha 14

Traits:
Adopted: Tusked
Blade of Mercy

Feats and Rogue Talents:

1 Enforcer
2 Finesse Rogue
3 Sap Adept
4 WF Claws
5 Sap Master
6 Vicious Claws
7 Dazzling display
8 Shatter Defense
9 Extra Rogue Talent (Offensive Defense)

Lord Malkov 3: The Snipening:

Build #3

The Ranged Enforcer:

Human Rogue (Sniper) level 12

Str:10
Dex:26 (+2 race, +3 levels, +4 belt)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:10

Feats/Talents:

1:Point Blank Shot, Bludgeoner
2:Weapon Training (Focus: Shortbow)
3:Precise Shot
4:Combat Trick (Rapid Shot)
5:Dazzling Display
6:Sniper's Eye
7:Sap Adept
8:Ninja Trick (Darkvision)
9:Shatter Defenses
10:Feat Talent (Manyshot)
11:Sap Master
12:Crippling Strike*

Gear:
Headband of Ninjitsu
Belt of Dexterity +4
Shortbow +3
Sniper Goggless
Circlet of Persuasion
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
LOTS of blunt arrows (or a merciful bow)

Combat:

DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 25
Fort:+9 Ref:+19 Will:+8

OFFENSE:
BAB: +9/+4
Full Attack w/ Shortbow: +20/+20/+15
Breakdown: +9 BAB, +8 Dex, +3 bow, +1 focus, +1

point blank, -2 Rapid Shot, (on SA, +2 for

headband)

Full Round of Combat all non-lethal:
1) Manyshot attack +20 1d6+4/1d6+4
2) Activate Enforcer: Intimidate +18 (12 ranks, 3

trained, 3 circlet)
3) Rapid Shot: +20 1d6+4 - shatters defenses
4) Third Shot: +17 1d6+4+12d6+48 (98 avg.)
Breakdown of SA: 6d6 base, 6d6 sap master, +24 sap

adept, +24 sniper goggles

In subsequent rounds, if a target is already

shattered:
Full Attack: +22/+22/+17
Total damage if all hit: 4d6+16+36d6+144 (average:

300 exactly)

Lord Malkov 4: I have no catchy title at 2 in the morning:

Build #4

The Big Game Hunter

Human Rogue level 11, Shadow Dancer 1 (at level 8)

Str:10
Dex:26 (+2 race, +3 levels, +4 belt)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:10

Feats/Talents:

1:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2:Firearm Training
3:Dodge
4:Grit (Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Extra

Grit)
5:Combat Reflexes
6:Sniper's Eye
7:Mobility
8:Shadow Dancer PrC: Hide in Plain Sight
9:Fast Stealth, Skill Focus Stealth
10: -
11:Stealthy Sniper, Vital Strike
12: -

Gear:
Belt of Dexterity +4
+2 Impact Musket
Sniper Goggles
+2 Shadow Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Whatever else you want...

DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 25
Fort:+8 Ref:+19 Will:+7

OFFENSE:
BAB: +8/+4
Grit: 3

Sniping:
Stealth Check +24 (12 ranks, 3 trained, 5 armor, 6

feat, 8 dex -10 sniping)
Vital Strike Snipe Shot: +19 (+8 bab, +2 weapon, +8

dex, +1 PBS)
Damage: 12d6+14

Lord Malkov 5: Lord Malkov earns a cookie...it's lemon crisp:

Build #5

The Table-Leg Bruiser
(Side note, I keep using humans, not because they

are better, but because they are easy to translate

into other races for builds. Obviously a half-elf

or a halfling is a better sniper etc, and

personally I think dwarves make the best rogues,

because they can actually get decent saves. End

side note)

This build is only effective against humanoids

wielding weapons

Human Flowing Monk of the Empty Hand level 2, Rogue

10

Str:12 (+2 belt)
Dex:23 (+2 race, +3 levels, +2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:13
Wis:12
Cha:10

Feats/Talents:
Empty Hand: All normal weapons are treated as

Improvised Weapons.

1:Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon

Fighting
2:-
3:Improved Disarm
4:Finesse Rogue
5:Catch Off-Guard
6:Weapon Training (Focus: Light Hammer)
7:Break Guard
8:Offensive Defense
9:Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10:Deft Palm
11:Greater Disarm
12: Weapon Snatcher

Gear:
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
2x +2 Light Hammers
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Gloves of Larceny
Duelist's Vambraces
Whatever else you want...

DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 23
Fort:+11 Ref:+19 Will:+10

OFFENSE:
BAB: +8/+4
Weapon Snatch, Disarm: +30 (12 rank, 3 trained, 6

dex, 5 gloves, 4 feats)

Full Attack: +14/+14/+11/+9

Tactics:
(1) Disarm your opponent (sacrifice first attack)

+30
(2) Opponent is no longer armed, Catch Off-Guard =

flat footed.
(3) Activate Break Guard as a swift action to

attack +16 1d4+5d6+3
(4) finish attacking: +16/+13/+11 for 1d4+5d6+3 on

each hit.

In later levels, or in lieu of TWF feats, you can

grab the Sap Master line of feats. In fact, you can

effectively disarm/intimidate in the same round and

get sneak attacks without breaking stride or losing

any attacks. You still have flurry, so if you want

to go armorless, you can also still get an extra

attack (+7/+7/+2)

Leonardo's Journey into goblin land:

Goblin Rogue 9/ Oracle (Waves) 1
(25pt)
Str:10
Dex:28 (+4belt + 2 lv)
Con:10
Int:11
Wis:16 (+2 hb)
Cha:8

Inic: + 11(dex,trait) CA:24(dex, size,ice armor)

Feats/Talents:

1:Point Blank Shot,
2:Ki pool
3:Rapid Shot
4:minor magic
5:weapon focus (shuiriken)
6:Sniper's Eye
7:extra talente: ninja trick: flurry of stars
8:major magic (obscure mist)
9: revelation: Water Sight (oracle). Extra

revelation:ice armor
10: -

Bab+6/+1, +9Dex +1Size +1Haste(boots) +1WF +1PB

+1shuriken MW -2 Rapid Shot - 2 Flurry of Stars

+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11

Obscure mist centered on the goblin for SA all

turns and 20-50% miss chance on him.

Equip: belt 16k, headband 4k, boots 12k, 30k for

supplies

Wraithstrike tries again and succeeds:

rogue rogue
Dwarf Ranger (Guide) 1/Rogue 10
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +21
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +1 Dex,

+2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 77 (1d10+10d8+22)
Fort +12, Ref +13 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +11;

+2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like

abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion,

uncanny dodge, trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +2 keen scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+11/15-20)
Special Attacks hatred, ranger's focus, sneak

attack +5d6
Ranger (Guide) Spells Prepared (CL 0; concentration

+2):
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +14; CMD 27 (27 vs. bull rush, 27

vs. trip)
Feats Furious Focus, Great Fortitude, Improved

Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Steel Soul,

Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+10 jump), Appraise +1 (+3

to determine the price of nonmagic items with

precious metals or gemstones), Bluff +14, Climb

+10, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +21, Disguise

+10, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Heal +6, Perception

+21 (+26 to locate traps, +23 to notice unusual

stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone

walls or floors), Ride +0, Sense Motive +13,

Spellcraft +15, Stealth +19, Survival +6 (+7 to

track), Swim +9, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant
SQ greed, hardy, rogue talents (bleeding attack +5,

coax information, combat trick, crippling strike,

offensive defense), slow and steady, stability,

stonecunning, track, trapfinding +5, wild empathy
Other Gear +3 Shadow Mithral Agile breastplate, +2

Keen Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of

giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Eyes of

the eagle, Ring of protection +2, Thieves' tools,

masterwork, 2935 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bleeding Attack +5 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 5

bleed damage/round.
Coax information (Ex) Can use Bluff or Diplomacy to

force an opponent to act friendly.
Crippling Strike (Ex) Your sneak attacks do 2

points of Strength damage.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black

and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs

monsters of the Giant subtype.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for

half damage, you take none instead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two

hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of

each turn.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price

of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or

gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects

Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and

Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs

Goblinoids/Orcs.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX

bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked

unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1

dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your

attack roll to add to your damage.
Ranger's Focus +2 (1/day) (Ex) +2 to hit and damage

focused target.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified

by encumbrance.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your

target or your target is flat-footed.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip

while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like

abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual

stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks

made to track.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC

against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable

traps, including magical ones.
Wild Empathy +1 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an

animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered

Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at

http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are

trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used

under license.

This is a strength focused rogue.
stealth = 19
perception 21

DPR= 19.79

DPR with PA and Furious Focus 27.2

DPR with sneak attack and flanking + furious focus

52.86

All of the above + ranger's focus which is only

availible once per day 65.85

Fort 12 Reflex 13 Will 11<---Before the dwarf

bonuses or Steel Soul comes into play.

A CR 11 monster forces a save of 20 on average, and

most will saves will be spells or SLA. That means a

75% chance of success. The fort save is even

higher, which is a good thing.

I still have close to 3000 gp left over. That might

go towards a circlet of persuasion so my diplomacy,

bluff, and UMD checks get boost.

My AC is not that good, but I do have offensive

defensive. I also have crippling strike which

further decreases my chances of getting hit. With

the right wand I should be able to give myself a

mischance. Even a low level wand of mirror image

would be nice once I save the money to get one.

Lemmy reminds me of a good song:

Roxy The Duelist
Half-Elf Rogue 10
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2

shield, +5 Dex)
hp 88 (10d8+40)
Fort +12, Ref +15 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +13;

+2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge, trap

sense; Immune magic sleep; charm and compulsion

spells (as Protection From Evil) Resist elven

immunities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 rapier +15/+10 (1d6+4/18-20) and
. . +1 silversheen cestus +14/+9 (1d4+4/19-20) and
. . +2 silversheen rapier +16/+11 (1d6+5/18-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite shortbow +14/+9

(1d6+4/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training,

Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack,

Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +13, Disable Device

+23, Intimidate +13, Perception +17 (+22 to locate

traps), Sense Motive +15, Stealth +18, Survival +2

(+4 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +13;

Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse

rogue, offensive defense, slippery mind, weapon

training), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Wand of Acid Splash, Wand of cure light

wounds; Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1

Mithral Buckler, +1 Adaptive Composite shortbow

(Str +3), +1 Rapier, +1 Silversheen Cestus, +2

Silversheen Rapier, Belt of physical perfection +2,

Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Ioun

stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (pale green prism

(cracked, Attack), Ioun torch, Traveler's any-tool,

Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Masterwork tool (Disable

Device), Masterwork tool (Stealth), 400 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra

attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-

footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human

for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic

sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for

half damage, you take none instead.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as

though affected by feather step.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX

bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked

unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without

food or water.
Ioun torch This item is merely a burned out, dull

gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast

upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit,

and allows the bearer to carry light and still have

his hands free.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low

light, distinguishing color and detail.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC

for 1 rd.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1

dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your

attack roll to add to your damage.
Slippery Mind (Ex) If you fail a save vs an

Enchantment spell/effect, can re-save next rd.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your

target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC

against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable

traps, including magical ones.
Traveler's any-tool Acts as masterwork tools for

most Craft or Profession skills.
Wand of Acid Splash Add this item to create a wand

of a chosen spell.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device

patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a

wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears

gold accents. With a command word, you can use a

wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The

wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic)

compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on

Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All

wayfinders include a small indentation designed to

hold a single ioun stone.
It's amazing how many resources I had to spend just

so Roxy could have mediocre AC/CMD and decent/good

saves... And her accuracy is still bleh. :

(

Renegadeshephards Inquisitor:

Note if anyone will tell me how to make spoilers or

do so in a quote I'd appreciate it...

Second note: a tiefling matches this build almost

as well but gains more defense in exchange for less

skills. Also an archer build can replace the

dervish feats and still be work as well.

SKILL MONKEY/FACE ROGUE

Human Inquisitor 1/ Rogue X 20 point buy

STR 9
DEX 16
CON 12
INT. 16 (18)
WIS 14
CHA 7

Alternate racial traits: silver tongued and focused

study.

Feats and talents

1 skill focus
1 fast learner
3T weapon finesse
3 whatever combat feat u need
5T weapon focus
5 toughness
7T combat trick into toughness
7 any skill feat
8 free skill focus

Traits: + 1 fort and + 2 initiative is ideal
Tactics sub domain
Skills: ur choice but you have 14 a level.

LV 2 sample saves: +4 fort, +5 reflex, +4 will. Not

great but ok.

Why the inquisitor? Makes up for some weaknesses of

rogue without comprising anything.

1) infiltrator archetype handles the MAD of rogue

when he needs higher CHA by replacing on some face

skills. a +4 net swing to diplomacy and such is

nothing to sneeze at but u still get the 4 extra

points for attributes.

2) judgements shore up save weaknesses or adds to

chance to hit ur choice.

3) the increases in fort and will are great.

EDIT: the tactics is the biggest reason I do no

advocate improved initiative as you and the rest of

the party have the potential to get two rolls. In

this way you can contribute to the party in battle

in a lasting way beyond sneak attack tries.

Tacticslion posts a drow:

Rouge Roguey Rogue-like the Third (15 pt buy)

Rouge Roguey Rogue-like the Third (15 pt buy):

DROW; favored class: +1/2 to Bluff for feint and

secret messages
STR 12
DEX 17
CON 8
INT 10
WIS 11
CHA 16

SKILLS
Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist,

Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic

Device

FEATS
1st: Stealthy
3rd: Spider Steps
5th: Drow Nobility
7th: Improved Drow Nobility
9th: Greater Drow Nobility
11th: Noble Spell Resistance
13th: Umbral Scion
15th: Improved Umbral Scion

TALENTS
2nd: Minor Magic (Penumbra)
4th: Fast Stealth
6th: Lasting Poison
8th: Sniper's Eye
10th: Another Day
12th: Defensive Roll
14th: Deadly Cocktail
16th: Deadly Sneak

You end up with a decent ranged sneak-attacker who

excels in darkness, subterfuge, poison (via race)

and has access to reasonably useful spell-likes

that aid in most situations. It certainly "feels"

like a rogue to me. EDIT 3/4: Also, from what I can

tell of a super-brief once- twice-over of the rules

(warning: my reading comprehension sucks tonight,

so beware the probable-mistake here), he should be

able to feint his way to sneak attacks while

maintaining a lack of melee, even if he's not

stealthy. Which he will be. Especially with his

darkvision range (which is a drow thing instead of

a rogue thing, I admit).
EDIT 4: actually, upon re-reading, feinting is a

melee-specific thing, unfortunately. So nevermind

that one, then, probably switch out the favored

class thing for another skill point and put it into

diplomacy or intimidate or one of the movement

skills.

Your hit points and fortitude will suck, though.

Like, they'll actively suck fortitude-focused

effects toward your character.

Besides having access to magic, going through the

Nobility line gets you ways to shore up your skills

(levitate being great for movement, suggestion for

diplomacy, and so on) and grants you improved Spell

Resistance - not the best thing (as noted in many a

monk thread), but certainly useful against

Fortitude spells and since you already have it, it

seems (to me) like you might as well have it.

Skills and hit points can be alleviated by making

it a 20 point buy and increasing CON and INT by a

few points each.

The minor magic aids in keeping your main weakness

(light blindness) negated. I'd rather get a

custom-made constant-penumbra item, but, even

though that's only 1,000 gold, it's not able to be

guaranteed access.

Other than that, the typical array of equipment was

mentioned by others - nab some cheap alchemical or

magical items to allow you to stealth under

circumstances.

The rogue is not a powerhouse, and likely could be

imitated by others (most notably the ninja, though

since that also gets poison-use, that's one less

useful class ability). It's just making a build

that looks neat to me (and doing so quickly) so I'm

not ignoring your OP request!

EDIT 3: I'm probably making a mistake somewhere. It

was a really quick build. Feel free to let me know

where I'm wrong.

Now, if only the GM would give me the Young

template, I'd be pretty daggum set for an amazing

scout...

MErgy's tongue is firmly in that cheek:
I

posted this in another recent rogue thread, but I

think it qualifies as a build that acknowledges and

attempts to surpass the rogue's inherent

weaknesses.

The Flankless Halfling:
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 9
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Fleet of Foot

(replaces Sure-Footed), Low Blow (replaces Keen

Senses), Underfoot (replaces Halfling Luck)
Traits: Axe to Grind [UCa], Pragmatic Activator

[UCa]

1 Dodge
2 Finesse Rogue [Weapon Finesse]
3 Mobility
4 Minor Magic [prestidigiation]
5 Arcane Strike
6 Combat Trick [Spring Attack]
7 Risky Striker [ARG]
8 Major Magic [liberating command [UCo]
9 Weapon Focus (rapier)
10 Familiar [UCo]
11 Improved Familiar
12 Feat [Improved Critical (rapier)]

The idea is that a rogue is decent when sneak

attacking. This build makes use of the single-

classed rogue's advantages: a great number of bonus

feat opportunities, no shortage of skills, and low

expectations.

Through a combination of the Risky Striker halfling

feat and Arcane Strike (qualification with Minor

Magic!), this little guy is actually doing pretty

good damage on a single hit; furthermore, he

doesn't have to stay in melee and put that d8 hit

die to the test, because Spring Attack. Of course,

if the tide is turning, a flanking full attack is

still a good time.

Potions of reduce person when combined with Spring

Attack means that even against medium foes he can

get Risky Striker going, and his surprisingly high

static damage makes critical hits surprisingly

meaningful. While reduced, clock him out at +23/+18

(1d3+20/15-20). Add to this the very nice Improved

Familiar he gets through an absolutely extravagant

spending of rogue talents, and there are some

definite contributions here.

Single-classed, no archetype. While an

archaeologist could do all of this, he would have

to make use of retraining to get an Improved

Familiar by level 12. Checkmate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So of total we have 30 rogue builds collected so far.

Of these 12 of them dipped at least one level into another class.

Race Wise we have:

Half Orcs: 5

Humans: 10

Halflings:4

Dwarf:3

Other: 5

Unspecified: 3


Next time I do this I'll sit down and make some actual analysis. I encourage others to do the same.

But of course keep posting new stuff. PErhaps looking at this you learn something new and how to exploit it towards your own ends.

Liberty's Edge

I don't see how this build works: (Lord Malkov 3: The Snipening)

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Build #3

The Ranged Enforcer:

Human Rogue (Sniper) level 12

Full Round of Combat all non-lethal:
1) Manyshot attack +20 1d6+4/1d6+4
2) Activate Enforcer: Intimidate +18 (12 ranks, 3 trained, 3 circlet)
3) Rapid Shot: +20 1d6+4 - shatters defenses
4) Third Shot: +17 1d6+4+12d6+48 (98 avg.)

If you use bludgening arrows, you can deal nonlethal damage. Still, enemies are not flat-footed. Enforcer was not picked as a feat and Enforcer works only with melee weapons.


I should point out that my Moonlight Stalker build is above WBL because I threw in the wrong cost for the cloak (which is the most necessary item in the build).


An idea for a "fun" rogue to play, not particularly combat optimised, but able to handle himself, and do lots of stuff outside of combat.

The character relies on movement to stay reasonably safe in combat, whilst allowing sneak attacks when the opportunity arises. The character relies on sneak attacks for damage.

It is slightly outside of the spirit of the initial challenge as I take it to level 11.

20pt Build

Half Orc

Str 14
Dex 24 (+2 Race, +2 Advance, +4 Belt)
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 10
Chr 10

Swap out:

Weapon Familiarity for City-Raised (proficiency in Whip, we'll be using that a lot later, and +2 Knowledge (local) one of the more useful skills.

Traits:

Armor Expert: This character is all about skills and movement.

Acrobat: Again skills and movement.

Feats/Talents/Class Skills:

Level 1:

Sneak Attack +1d6, trapfinding
Feat Dodge: +1 AC (Starts a feat line)

Level 2:

Evasion
1st Talent: Weapon Finesse

Level 3:

Sneak Attack +2d6, trap sense +1
Feat: Whip Mastery (Lethal and non-lethal damage with a 15ft reach, allowing sneak attacks against armoured opponents, and you don't provoke when using it)

Level 4:

Uncanny Dodge
2nd Talent: Mobility (+4 AC against attacks of opportunity)

Level 5:

Sneak Attack +3d6
Feat: Combat Expertise

Level 6:

Trap Sense +2
Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack

Level 7:

Sneak Attack +4d6
Feat: Improved Whip Mastery (OK I now get a threatened area, but the real reason for getting this is that I can now use the whip to steal unattended objects and to use it as it were a grappling hook, so rogueish I love it)

Level 8:

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Rogue Talent: Ninja Talent, Wall Climber (A climb speed, combined with Acrobatic Trait, I can climb at double my speed with just a -2 penalty, whilst keeping my dex bonus to AC)

Level 9:

Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap sense +3
Feat: Spring Attack

Level 10:

Advanced Talent: Skill Mastery

Level 11:

Sneak Attack +6d6
Feat: Whirlwind Attack

Some Items
Wand of Enlarge person
Boots of Striding and Springing

Skills: (SM indicates skill mastery talent)

Acrobatics (SM)
Climb (SM)
Disable Device
Escape Artist (SM)
Knowledge Local
Perception
Sleight of Hand (SM)
Stealth (SM)
Swim
Use Magic Device

The character has plenty of things to do out of combat, being a great scout and with plenty of movement options it would be difficult to stop them sneaking,climbing, jumping, squeezing, Lock picking their way into anything.

In Combat, the customer spring attacks using acrobatics/mobility to get into flanking positions whilst avoiding being out of position, note that this character can effectively use walls like floors when considering lines of movement.

He's also on the look out for situations where numbers of creatures are committed to combat. First round spring into position, second round Whirlwind attack. With Enlarge person you have a reach of 30ft with your whip, so you can hit a lot of people with this with clever positioning.


Would you like us to do some DPR calculations for builds? At level 10?


In my usual group there are virtually no house rules except the paladin and anti paladin alignment issues for the base and core classes. Among the prestige classes the requirements are house ruled to make them more attainable but we the players don't take em often.

As for the composition of the group, I couldn't say all of the combos and I wasn't the rogue in all of em those times but here is a rough synopsis... I went to a bit of an extreme and so did most of my teammates to see how well it worked as a team.

As a straight skill monkey and face I had these guys in party

1) elven archer master summoner. only took 16 CHA and much of the rest was based on archery. He was essentially a type of glass cannon with his own wall of monsters.

2)A tiefling alchemist.

3) a dual talented human (con/str) traditional sword and board fighter

4) an occasional guest that was a dwarven cleric of abadar. He was mostly battle oriented but had some good support as well.

In other words we almost never had a true controller. the end group tactic was usually burying the enemy in bodies and then killing at distance or my sneak attack. The summoner and I were the ones who had the most near death experiences but we never did. When the summoner ran out of worthy summons it got ugly but we could still pull through.

Had a kitsune swashbuckling dervish rogue that was our principle scout with a druid, a paladin, witch, and invulnerable barbarian. We had a lot of melee there and it hurt. The druid was our life saver more than anyone else.


Alex Mack wrote:
Would you like us to do some DPR calculations for builds? At level 10?

I just did my own DPR for my characters. I dont think we are restricted to a certain level.


Here is a rogue build which tries to incorporate flexibility and utility without skimping out on combat ability. I built him as a halfling straight up rogue, no archetypes. He focuses on using daggers and fighting with two weapons, while taking advantage of his high dexterity. He has power attack/cornugon smash for debuffing capability and some extra damage. Considering he is a halfling he will hit more regularly than a medium sized race and has a healthy bonus to saves.

At early levels he has power attack to make sure his damage stays up there, and arcane spells like ghost sound and vanish for utility. Offensive defensive is a favourite rogue talent of mine as it allows a rogue to have a much higher ac than normal especially if you get all your sneak attacks off. I also gave him trap spotter so that you never have to tell your dm you are searching for traps and are always ready to find those nasty traps.

At higher levels I started with giving him a familiar (followed by improved familiar the next level for an imp) to give him a companion to use all his wands etc on the rogue to buff him, whether its haste, greater invisibility, fly, or simple things like glitter dust, an imp companion will help greatly the rogue, while also staying out of trouble with invisibility.

At level 12 I gave him dispelling strike so he can make all those magical buffs that enemy wizards cast on themselves disappear and at 14th lvl I gave him crippling strike to bring enemy strength down to 0 with sneak attacks.

Combat wise, if this rogue gets to sneak attack (a high chance considering his invisibility and ghost touch weapons) he does a serious amount of damage and is able to strip magical defences and generally bring a lot of utility to any party. I even gave him spell craft so that he could identify spells his enemies are casting and act appropriately, without having to rely on the party arcane caster to tell him what his enemies are casting.

He is playable without a team and is versatile and can stand on his own if need be. With agile weapons and his river rat trait, he does significant damage even without sneak attacks.

Meanwhile against anything he can sneak attack he will often outstrip the damage a fighter can dish out. His familiar gives him alertness and can aid him on most actions and is unbelievably useful in most combats. Given a couple cure wands he can even go around and act as a little healer.

This rogue will also hit regularly with roughly a 2x+31/+26/+21 at level 20 (easily hitting with him primary hits, and if he is invisible and/or flanking with his secondary/tertiary attacks too)

He has normal rogue weaknesses though and suffers when fighting someone with improved uncanny dodge or something that is immune to his sneak attacks (thankfully even in those cases he deals enough damage to be a threat and can always rely on his wands/scrolls to help in combat, something most fighters flat out cannot do).

Flexible/Self Sufficient/Magical Rogue
20 point buy
Halfling (Fleet of Foot alternate Racial)

STR 13
DEX 19 (4,8,12,16,20)
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 10

At 20 w/items+tomes
STR 13
DEX 34
CON 18
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 10

Traits
River Rat: +1 dmg w/daggers
Resilient: +1 fortitude
Adopted/Carefully Hidden: +1 will, +2 vs divination

Drawback:
Pick one to suit your character

Feats
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Two Weapon Fighting
5. Power Attack
7. Cornugon Smash
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11. Improved Familiar (Imp)
13.Combat Reflexes
15.Weapon Focus (Daggers)
17. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
19. Medium Armor Proficiency

Rogue Talents
2. Offensive Defence
4. Trap Spotter
6. Minor Magic (Ghost Sound)
8. Major Magic (Vanish or Shield) <Vanish being the better choice until higher levels>
10. Familiar (Imp)
12. Dispelling Attack
14. Crippling Strike
16. Opportunist
18. Slippery Mind
20. Improved Evasion

Skills
Acrobatics 20 ranks
Appraise 4 ranks
Bluff 10 ranks
Disable Device 18 ranks
Disguise 4 ranks
Escape Artist 20 ranks
Intimidate 20 ranks
Perception 18 ranks
Sleight of Hand 6 ranks
Spellcraft 20 ranks
Stealth 19 ranks
Swim 1 ranks
Use Magic Device 20 ranks

Ultimate Gear Goals (Roughly 880 k worth)
2x Keen Ghost Touch Agile Daggers +5 (Roughly 128 k each)
Celestial Armor +5 (22.4 k original cost, +18 k for +5)
Belt of Physical Might+6 (Dex, Con) (90 k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)
Ring of Protection +5 (50 k)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50 k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
Gem of Seeing (75k)
Lenses of Detection (3.5k)
Bag of Holding type IV (10k) (Extra gold should be spent on more bags)
Circlet of Persuasion (4.5k)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom+6 (36k)
Mw Thieves tools
Manual of Quickness of Action+4 (110k)
Manual of Bodily Health +2 (55k)

Wands:
Greater Invisibility CL 10 (30k)
Haste (11.25k)
Fly (11.25k)
Glitterdust (4.5k)
Displacement (11.25k)


Okay DPR for punching kitty at level 9 assuming 20 DEX, a +4 Dex belt and a +1 AoMF as well as helm of mammoth lord. This leaves over 20k in gold to shore up defenses.

Single Claw hit sneak against flat footed opponent: 1d4+10d8+19 includes sap master, sap adept, Agile and Blade of Mercy= average of 66.5 nonlethal damage per hit.

Gore (Helm) and Bite (Tusked) each deal 1d6/1d4 +5d6 +8= average of 29 and 28 damge respectively.

To hit is + 15 for claws and +14 for bite and gore. So 65%/60% chance to hit a level typical AC of 22 at CR 9.

So on a flat footed full attack this adds up to 66.5*.65*2 + 29*.6 +28*.6= 120.65 DPR 86.45 of which are nonlethal.

Ways to increase to hit would drastically increase this number...

AC of such a build at level 9 assuming +2 amulet +2 ring and +2 mithral shirt would amount to 28 which is kid of meh. HP should be 80, Reflex save would be awesome but the other saves would be lacking.


Alex Mack wrote:

Okay DPR for punching kitty at level 9 assuming 20 DEX, a +4 Dex belt and a +1 AoMF as well as helm of mammoth lord. This leaves over 20k in gold to shore up defenses.

Single Claw hit sneak against flat footed opponent: 1d4+10d8+19 includes sap master, sap adept, Agile and Blade of Mercy= average of 66.5 nonlethal damage per hit.

Gore (Helm) and Bite (Tusked) each deal 1d6/1d4 +5d6 +8= average of 29 and 28 damge respectively.

To hit is + 15 for claws and +14 for bite and gore. So 65%/60% chance to hit a level typical AC of 22 at CR 9.

So on a flat footed full attack this adds up to 66.5*.65*2 + 29*.6 +28*.6= 120.65 DPR 86.45 of which are nonlethal.

Ways to increase to hit would drastically increase this number...

AC of such a build at level 9 assuming +2 amulet +2 ring and +2 mithral shirt would amount to 28 which is kid of meh. HP should be 80, Reflex save would be awesome but the other saves would be lacking.

CAn you post the entire build, allthis numbers are odd.


Nicos wrote:
CAn you post the entire build, allthis numbers are odd.

It's listed in Tark's above post as Alex Mack's paw punching kitty...


Alex Mack wrote:
Nicos wrote:
CAn you post the entire build, allthis numbers are odd.
It's listed in Tark's above post as Alex Mack's paw punching kitty...

yeah, but unless i am missing something there is no the entiere build ( imean, all the numbers, gears etc).

When partial build sometimes a weakness of the build is not apparent, and sometimes there a mistakes hard to see without all the numbers.


I Tried building a Dex-based TWF Rogue with Agile cestus... But seeing as it has a +14 bonus by 10th level, it's honestly not even worth posting.

That -2 to attack rolls combined with the cost of enhancing two weapons instead of one is way too crippling for Rogues. Potential Sneak Attack damage is just not worth the price. Especially for a class that struggles with accuracy, AC and saves.

Dark Archive

Lemmy wrote:

I Tried building a Dex-based TWF Rogue with Agile cestus... But seeing as it has a +14 bonus by 10th level, it's honestly not even worth posting.

That -2 to attack rolls combined with the cost of enhancing two weapons instead of one is way too crippling for Rogues. Potential Sneak Attack damage is just not worth the price. Especially for a class that struggles with accuracy, AC and saves.

Optimization help! Throw menacing on your offhand, and pick up Outflank, along with a ring of tactical mastery (lets you share a teamwork feat). Those combined should give a net +4 to hit with your main hand, and +3 to hit with your off-hand.

Alternatively, Nature Soul + Animal Ally with a menacing amulet for your kitty.

Silver Crusade

God I hate my mouse on my work PC. I had my PFS ninja all typed up at both level 1 and level 10, and I was just figuring out the last couple magical items to buy, when I accidentally closed out the tab and lost everything.

And now I don't even feel like typing it up again.


Mergy wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

I Tried building a Dex-based TWF Rogue with Agile cestus... But seeing as it has a +14 bonus by 10th level, it's honestly not even worth posting.

That -2 to attack rolls combined with the cost of enhancing two weapons instead of one is way too crippling for Rogues. Potential Sneak Attack damage is just not worth the price. Especially for a class that struggles with accuracy, AC and saves.

Optimization help! Throw menacing on your offhand, and pick up Outflank, along with a ring of tactical mastery (lets you share a teamwork feat). Those combined should give a net +4 to hit with your main hand, and +3 to hit with your off-hand.

Alternatively, Nature Soul + Animal Ally with a menacing amulet for your kitty.

Thanks for the advice, but honestly... It's just not worth the hassle.

Adding Menacing and Agile raises the weapon enhancement to +3. That's rather expensive. By 10th level, that cash is really necessary elsewhere if the Rogue wants to stay alive. It's difficult to keep his save competitive, even with 1 racial bonus, 2 traits and 2 feats dedicated to that task. :(

I give up on building RAW Rogues. They have too many weaknesses to overcome and not enough incentive for trying. Although I'd love to play some homebrew versions of the class (including my own ;D)

Dark Archive

Lemmy wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

I Tried building a Dex-based TWF Rogue with Agile cestus... But seeing as it has a +14 bonus by 10th level, it's honestly not even worth posting.

That -2 to attack rolls combined with the cost of enhancing two weapons instead of one is way too crippling for Rogues. Potential Sneak Attack damage is just not worth the price. Especially for a class that struggles with accuracy, AC and saves.

Optimization help! Throw menacing on your offhand, and pick up Outflank, along with a ring of tactical mastery (lets you share a teamwork feat). Those combined should give a net +4 to hit with your main hand, and +3 to hit with your off-hand.

Alternatively, Nature Soul + Animal Ally with a menacing amulet for your kitty.

Thanks for the advice, but honestly... It's just not worth the hassle.

Adding Menacing and Agile raises the weapon enhancement to +3. That's rather expensive. By 10th level, that cash is really necessary elsewhere if the Rogue wants to stay alive. It's difficult to keep his save competitive, even with 1 racial bonus, 2 traits and 2 feats dedicated to that task. :(

I give up on building RAW Rogues. They have too many weaknesses to overcome and not enough incentive for trying. Although I'd love to play some homebrew versions of the class (including my own ;D)

The off-hand doesn't need agile. You're not going to TWF when you're not in a position to pull off sneak attack. At level 10 you can easily afford a +1 agile cestus and a +1 menacing cestus.


@Mergy: Where can I find that ring of Tactical Mastery or is that maybe not it's real name? Cause a quick google search turned up nothing...

@NICOS: Will do... as I said weaknesses are WIL and FORT saves, survivability to a certain extent (AC and CON) as well as foes immune to fear and or nonlethal damage. That's quite a long list if you ask me...still the damage potential seems rather nice.


Alex Mack wrote:


@NICOS: Will do... as I said weaknesses are WIL and FORT saves, survivability to a certain extent (AC and CON) as well as foes immune to fear and or nonlethal damage. That's quite a long list if you ask me...still the damage potential seems rather nice.

If the numbers are as you say (28 AC, 80 hp) atlevel 9, then your build is very solid. Those woulld be fantastic numbers when coupled with that DPR.


I find that the premise of this is a bit flawed.

You basically have 3 situations. PFS Play is one scenario. You can somewhat optimize around your local metagame but mostly you need to be able to handle a multitude of situations and handle various objectives. Tight limitations on Point buy and whatnot you generalize a bite more in this play.

Adventure path play with the same group. You can strategize and split skill loads. You deal with the same players and can synergize of that. APs have some limitations on character creation and things like Encounters per day, available downtime and gear available.

Homebrew stuff. So many variables. Chargen can be different do as i tend to run 4d6 drop lowest. Differing amounts of magic item availability. Downtime varies.

You can get a rogue to do all of these things well but he really really has to optimize to do one thing really good and with consistent allies to play off this can be highly achievable. In PFS play? Rogues are hardpressed.

Long way of saying YMMV depending on which scenario you are building.

Dark Archive

I'll try to build one for Lemmy. Let's specialize in two iconic rogue things: Perception and Two-Weapon Fighting.

Lemmy's TWF rogue:

Halfling rogue 10
N Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +7; Senses Perception +27 (+32 vs. traps)

DEFENCE

AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 21 (+6 armour, +6 Dex, +2 luck, +2 shield, +1 size); -2 with Two-Weapon Fighting; -1 with Risky Striker
hp 75 (10d8+30)
Fort +8, Ref +16, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge

OFFENCE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile cold iron cestus +16/+11 (1d3+7/19-20) and +1 menacing silver cestus +15/+10 (1d3/19-20)
or +1 agile cold iron cestus +18/+13 (1d3+7/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite shortbow +17/+12 (1d4/x3)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +5d6; Risky Striker (-1 to AC; +6 to damage vs. large or larger opponents)

STATISTICS

Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +9, CMB +8, CMD 26
Feats Adaptive Fortune, Fortunate One, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Outflank, Risky Striker, Skill Focus (Perception), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus (cestus)
Skills Acrobatics +19, Climb +5, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +19, Disable Device +24, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (local) +15, Perception +27, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +23, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +15
Traits Fate's Favoured, Pragmatic Activator
Languages Common, Halfling, and two others
SQ Adaptable Luck, Fleet of Foot, Rogue talents [Combat Trick, Finesse Rogue, Feat, Trap Spotter, Weapon Training], Trapfinding, Trap Sense
Gear See below

Build:
Starting Stats
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 9

Alternate Racial Traits Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck), Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed)
Traits Fate's Favoured, Pragmatic Activator

1 Skill Focus (Perception)
2 Finesse Rogue [Weapon Finesse]
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Trap Spotter, +1 Dex
5 Risky Striker
6 Weapon Training [Weapon Focus (cestus)]
7 Fortunate One
8 Combat Trick [Outflank], +1 Dex
9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Feat [Adaptive Fortune]

Skills [100]
10 - Acrobatics
2 - Climb
5 - Bluff
5 - Diplomacy
10 - Escape Artist
10 - Disable Device
10 - Knowledge (arcana)
10 - Knowledge (dungeoneering)
10 - Perception
5 - Sense Motive
10 - Stealth
3 - Swim
10 - Use Magic Device

Gear:
62,000 gp
10,305 +1 agile cold iron cestus
8,330 +1 menacing silver cestus
375 mwk composite shortbow
402 20 cold iron arrows (blanched with ghost salt)
5,100 +2 mithral chain shirt
1,155 +1 buckler
11,000 ring of tactical precision
9,000 cloak of resistance +3
5,000 jingasa of the fortunate soldier
4,000 belt of incredible dexterity +2
2,500 eyes of the eagle
2,000 handy haversack
100 masterwork thieves' tools
60 alchemist's fire [3]
10 silk rope
1 grappling hook
1 flint and steel
1 waterskin
50 scrolls of obscuring mist [2]
300 scrolls of invisibility [2]
300 scrolls of darkvision [2]
300 scrolls of glitterdust [2]
300 scrolls of spider climb [2]
750 scrolls of fly [2]
750 wand of cure light wounds

Spent 61,889 gp (111 gp remains)

Without someone to flank him (hopefully with a free ring slot), he's not too special. +18 to hit with a single attack and +16/+15 to hit with both is pretty meh at level 10. However, while flanking with anyone, he shoots up to +22 and +20/+19/+15/+14. When flanking with someone who is wearing his special ring, he shoots up again to +25 and +23/+22/+23/+22.

Risky Striker provides a decent amount of damage against anything bigger than a human, giving him +6 on each hit. Against easy-to-hit large enemies (oozes, giants), two-weapon fighting is worth it even without sneak attack. Against anything harder to hit, going for the single strike will almost always be better.

Other things he brings are a fantastic Perception (auto-discovering nearly any trap out there) and a decent enough UMD score. For important hits or UMD checks, he can activate his Adaptable Luck to give himself a staggering +5 luck bonus to any check. Of course, any halfling can do that.

AC is respectable, though hit points and saving throws are low for my tastes. I would consider playing this build, but I would go into it with relatively low expectations. While decent, I think this build would be better with a ranger chassis.

Alex Mack wrote:
@Mergy: Where can I find that ring of Tactical Mastery or is that maybe not it's real name? Cause a quick google search turned up nothing...

Oops, ring of tactical precision from Ultimate Equipment.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Ched Greyfell wrote:
Yes, sneak attack is the rogue's main source of damage. However, the damage being predicated on flanking and flat-footedness is what balances out the damage. Because it's a LOT of damage. If a rogue got that all the time, every time, it would be insane. It requires him to strategize, optimize feats, think, and work with his teammates. The rogue in Pathfinder is far & above what it was in previous editions of the game. Any problems stem from player-imposed roles or conceptions/misconceptions. The game isn't the rules. The game is a player-driven story, the rules are just a facilitator. I love rogues. They are great. Don't need "fixing". They already were fixed when they carried over from 3.5 to now.

Sneak attack is actually not a "LOT of damage". On average it's only about +3.5 damage per die. Martials deal more consistent damage when they're full-attacking in melee than rogues do just because their BAB and Power Attack scales better and can benefit from critical hits (no multiplying your sneak damage, but power attack gets multiplied).

About the only way for a rogue to consistently out-damage a martial with power attack is if the rogue is pushing strength as hard as they can. Otherwise their damage while flanking compares to a martial's and is pathetic when they aren't flanking.

Meanwhile, unlike rogues, martials cannot be completely invalidated with a few cheap trinkets. Rogues are taxed a feat from a splatbook or else they cannot sneak attack anything with concealment (which means smokesticks, blur, displacement, cloak of displacement lesser or major, darkness, deeper darkness, invisibility, greater invisibility, fog effects, obscuring mist, cloud spells, etc, etc, etc) all stop sneak attack from functioning. Even then, total concealment crushes you.

Then there's fortification armor, which the basic lesser version gives a 25% avoidance of sneak attacks and critical hits.

Then there's the fact elementals, oozes, and incorporeal foes are generally going to laugh at your damage no matter how hard you try.

Then there's the fact that being in melee is a very bad place to be, but that's where you need to be if you're going to do consistent damage with sneak attack (worse yet, you also need a friend to be consistently flanking with you). Rogues tend to have poor AC for characters who are going to engage in melee frequently, but their ranged attacking opportunities tend to be pretty bad unless they're invisible and within 30 ft.

This also adds to their multi-ability dependency. Rogues are built like spellcasters with no spells. They have a 3/4 BAB which means they have to make up their to-hit deficiencies with extra high stats. They have only light armor proficiency out of the gate, so they have to make up their AC deficiencies with extra high Dexterity. They have a d8 HD, so they have to make up for their lack of HP and Fortitude on the front lines with extra Constitution. Wisdom is a must since it applies to their poor Will saves. About the only stats they don't need in spades is Intelligence and Wisdom.

Finally, using strategy, optimizing, thinking, and working with one's team are most definitely not features of the rogue. You can do the same with any class, including the NPC classes like adept and warrior. In fact, when you use strategy and teamwork with other classes it tends to have a much bigger impact.

One of the issues a rogue has is that the rogue becomes a drain on the team. Either some one else must stop whatever they are doing and try to flank with the rogue or the rogue is worthless in combat. Unfortunately, the rogue is already taking up valuable party-real estate that could have been sporting a more useful class like Bard or Ranger. A class that could actually hold their own should no other party member be able to effectively come to their aid at that moment.

As an example, if we have a party consisting of bard, cleric, wizard, paladin, the paladin, cleric, and bard can each hold the line against a group of enemies effectively. If needed the Paladin, Bard, and Cleric can deal with multiple directions and issues at once (such as if the party is surrounded or needs to guard its flank). A rogue on the other hand is a waste of oxygen if the party cannot provide him or her with a flanking partner. At which point the party would have been better off with a trio of PCs and cohort that wasn't a rogue.


Alex Mack wrote:
Would you like us to do some DPR calculations for builds? At level 10?

You can do them at all levels if you desire. I chose level 10 as a point for a build to come into fruition since it's just before PFS caps out.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

A decent build for rogues involves going Strength prime, dipping a level of Barbarian or Ranger for better proficiencies and class features, then focusing entirely on pole arms and reach weapons. Don't think about dual-wielding and take Catch Off Guard so you can smack people with your reach weapon in close-combat if they back you into a corner.

The result of going strength prime and never trying to dual-wield or the like means your to-hit bonuses will be decent enough to keep up with most of the other martials, and your 1.5 strength on damage rolls will keep you at least somewhat relevant while you're not sneak attacking. The extra reach can meanwhile provide more flanking opportunities more easily and more frequently. The extra armor proficiencies mean you don't have to have a suicidal armor class as using a breastplate is a decent option (and later a mithral breastplate or even celestial plate).

The only problems with this route is 1: You can do everything that you will do better as other core classes such as Ranger or Bard. 2: You're not going to look or feel like a rogue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So this is my first attempt at a kitty claw build

Mainly wanted to play with some stuff and it gets a fair attack bonus on a charge. +24 on a charge dealing 1d4+6d8+8 HArdly the worst numbers that can be made. Possible AoO's from panther style as well. Could be better but it's a start.

This build does open up some nasty possibilities going into later levels. Claw pounce plus haste means the above damage can be applied to all three charge attacks. If we're flanking we can mix up our unarmed attacks with our claw attacks to get a good number of sneak attacks in (some d6's some d8's) We still have our requisite skills. Like I said it's a good palce to start.


TarkXT wrote:

So this is my first attempt at a kitty claw build

Mainly wanted to play with some stuff and it gets a fair attack bonus on a charge. +24 on a charge dealing 1d4+6d8+8 HArdly the worst numbers that can be made. Possible AoO's from panther style as well. Could be better but it's a start.

This build does open up some nasty possibilities going into later levels. Claw pounce plus haste means the above damage can be applied to all three charge attacks. If we're flanking we can mix up our unarmed attacks with our claw attacks to get a good number of sneak attacks in (some d6's some d8's) We still have our requisite skills. Like I said it's a good palce to start.

A 1 lvl dip in MoMS Monk could be a nice way to take the necessary feats faster and free you feats for something else. It is also nice when you start at low lvls and you need to take the core feats asap.

Digital Products Assistant

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Removed a few posts. Please leave personal insults out of the conversations and do not call other posters "trolls."


TarkXT wrote:

So this is my first attempt at a kitty claw build

Mainly wanted to play with some stuff and it gets a fair attack bonus on a charge. +24 on a charge dealing 1d4+6d8+8 HArdly the worst numbers that can be made. Possible AoO's from panther style as well. Could be better but it's a start.

This build does open up some nasty possibilities going into later levels. Claw pounce plus haste means the above damage can be applied to all three charge attacks. If we're flanking we can mix up our unarmed attacks with our claw attacks to get a good number of sneak attacks in (some d6's some d8's) We still have our requisite skills. Like I said it's a good palce to start.

Nice build


TarkXT wrote:

So this is my first attempt at a kitty claw build

Mainly wanted to play with some stuff and it gets a fair attack bonus on a charge. +24 on a charge dealing 1d4+6d8+8 HArdly the worst numbers that can be made. Possible AoO's from panther style as well. Could be better but it's a start.

This build does open up some nasty possibilities going into later levels. Claw pounce plus haste means the above damage can be applied to all three charge attacks. If we're flanking we can mix up our unarmed attacks with our claw attacks to get a good number of sneak attacks in (some d6's some d8's) We still have our requisite skills. Like I said it's a good palce to start.

This is amusing, but what's your strategy vs damage reduction? Not poking fun, legitimately curious. Seems like DR 10/alignment or material would cut into your offense pretty heavily.

That being said, the scout archetype is amusing used like this. :)


Another option that occured to me might involve making sneak attack more of a supplementary amount of damage. And this is mounted combat using leadership to get a decent mount (sticking to monster cohorts since synthesists and druids skew things too far away from the point to make a valid argument).


Ashiel wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

So this is my first attempt at a kitty claw build

Mainly wanted to play with some stuff and it gets a fair attack bonus on a charge. +24 on a charge dealing 1d4+6d8+8 HArdly the worst numbers that can be made. Possible AoO's from panther style as well. Could be better but it's a start.

This build does open up some nasty possibilities going into later levels. Claw pounce plus haste means the above damage can be applied to all three charge attacks. If we're flanking we can mix up our unarmed attacks with our claw attacks to get a good number of sneak attacks in (some d6's some d8's) We still have our requisite skills. Like I said it's a good palce to start.

This is amusing, but what's your strategy vs damage reduction? Not poking fun, legitimately curious. Seems like DR 10/alignment or material would cut into your offense pretty heavily.

That being said, the scout archetype is amusing used like this. :)

Alignment DR screws everyone who doesn't straight up ignore it but can usually be ahndled by some appropriate buffs.. That being said material DR is still a concern. There may be a magic item or simple mundane item that can resolve this I'm missing. The monk level may have some merit to it but I'd want to take three levels for Still Mind and Monastic LEgacy making my claws and unarmed strikes that much more potent (esp. with monk robes). But at some point that makes me more monk than rogue.

If I were to redo it it'd be to reduce the need for sneak atack as a source of damage and emphasive unarmed and claw combat more. That would almost certainly mean grabbing a different race like Tengu along with 3 monk levels.


The shapechanger race can be a real game-"changer" (I hate myself too).

Curious to see what can be done with this race.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

We're getting hung up on a couple things. Damage output and the Rogue class' abysmal ability to hit things.

Rightfully so, the Rogue's role in combat is a pretty hefty bone of contention and the Rogue's role outside of combat boils down to any number of a plethora of skills which will be whittled down depending on what the party needs.

So lets talk about the Rogue's role in combat.

1. Hit things.

2. Do damage.

Gee, that was easy, we've already covered that.

Of course limiting the definition of the Rogue's role in combat to just those two factors is silly. We have already honed in on Magic Item use a bit due to the class' easy access to the skill, but lets take a further step back.

Access to Acrobatics. Restricted to light armor. A few talents related to movement and Acrobatics.

It becomes clear to me, both from the class' design and my experience with the class (both as a player and a teammate), that another of the Rogue's chief roles is positioning. A flank qualifies for Sneak Attacks, a flank helps shore up the class' abysmal hit bonus, and a flank makes the rogue a contributing member of the team by allowing other teammates a bonus to hit.

The other classes commonly brought up in this discussion all have other methods of dealing with hit chance. Monks can Flurry or do maneuvers, Rangers have full BAB, Inquisitors have judgments, Bards have flutes or something, and Ninjas only just barely pretend to be team players.

The Rogue is the only class which requires a flank bonus and has no other method of pretending that it doesn't.

So rather than ignoring this and building a Rogue which stands all by his onesies and tries to bluff his way to sneak attacks somehow in a 1v1, lets reassess the Rogue's combat role:

1. Positioning/Flanking

2. Hit things

3. Do damage

While not forgetting the Rogue's other functions...

4. Spend as few Feats/Talents as possible in order to maximize whatever the hell else the party needs you to do.

Tall order. The Rogue is never. Ever. Under any circumstances going to hit a monster's AC as well as a full BAB class. Ever. These guys spend their whole lives training and fighting to hone their bodies into killing machines. The Rogue on the other hand has spent his whole life slacking off in bars, picking pockets, wenching, cheating in card games, and occasionally jumping someone with his friends.

The Fighter has devoted his whole life to his art. The Rogue has taken short cuts and milled about becoming a Jack of All Trades.

The Rogue is just plain never going to be a Fighter. So the Rogue shouldn't try to fight like one. The Rogue is never going to hit an AC well, so the Rogue should just not hit AC.

Stop trying to think like a Fighter, going through problems, and think like a Rogue, going around problems.

ELF ROGUE(SCOUT) 12
Yes, Elf. We'll get to why later. Scout is a given seeing as we want to focus on positioning. Scout gives us sneak attacks while positioning, so that is two birds with one stone. Keep the default Racial Traits.

STR 10
DEX 16 (+2 race, +3 levels)
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 10

Stat spread is easy enough. Could try to get more CON if you wanted, but I think it is smarter to help shore up the WILL save (another thing Elf helps with).

1. Weapon Finesse ("THATS CRAZY!?" Trust me).
2. Minor Magic [Prestidigitation or Mage Hand are probably best]
3. [open feat]
4. Major Magic [Chill Touch]
5. [open feat]
6. Offensive Defense
7. [open feat]
8. [open talent]
9. [open feat]
10. Skill Mastery - Acro, UMD, + whatever your group needs
11. Quicken Spell-Like Ability [Chill Touch]
12. [open talent]

Couple of important distinctions:

MONSTER FEATS
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them

Quicken Spell-Like Ability
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat. The creature can use the chosen spell-like ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).

Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The creature can perform another action—including the use of another spell-like ability (but not another swift action)—in the same round that it uses a quickened spell-like ability. The creature may use only one quickened spell-like ability per round.

The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see Table: Quickened Spell-Like Abilities.

A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.

Now the real reason why Elf was important.

FAVORED CLASS BONUS
1. HP
2. +1 minor magic
3. +1 minor magic
4. +1 major magic
5. +1 major magic
6. +1 minor magic
7. +1 major magic
8. +1 minor magic
9. +1 major magic
10. +1 minor magic
11. +1 major magic

The Rogue now has access to 7 castings of Chill Touch a day. This is a spell which will give the rogue 12 touch attacks for 1d6 damage, and most importantly, easy access to Sneak Attacks despite the Rogue's terrible to hit bonuses. Three of those castings can be done as a Swift Action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Without spending a single feat, you overcome spell resistance just like a level 12 Elf Wizard.

Keep a wand of Elemental Touch on hand incase of emergencies. The damage isn't subject to a save and the spell allows no Spell Resistance, however it requires you to draw a wand and only lasts 3 rounds. A Flame Blade wand lasts 3 minutes so it is a bit more convenient than Elemental Touch, however it is limited to Fire Damage and subject to Spell Resistance. Carrying both wands will ensure things are as hassle free as possible.

You don't have to worry about Damage Reduction and just with what is listed are hitting at 12/8 against touch AC, already plenty on most occasions. Add in a few magic items or feats and you can increase things as much as you want. Two weapon fighting? Feinting? Skills? More acrobatics stuff? Whatever.


TarkXT wrote:

So this is my first attempt at a kitty claw build

Mainly wanted to play with some stuff and it gets a fair attack bonus on a charge. +24 on a charge dealing 1d4+6d8+8 HArdly the worst numbers that can be made. Possible AoO's from panther style as well. Could be better but it's a start.

This build does open up some nasty possibilities going into later levels. Claw pounce plus haste means the above damage can be applied to all three charge attacks. If we're flanking we can mix up our unarmed attacks with our claw attacks to get a good number of sneak attacks in (some d6's some d8's) We still have our requisite skills. Like I said it's a good palce to start.

Cool build. I've been trying to do something similar with just unarmed fighting. The Brawling enchant is an amazing value so it seems like a good thing for a Rogue to try and take advantage of.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ChainsawSam wrote:

1. Positioning/Flanking

2. Hit things

3. Do damage

While not forgetting the Rogue's other functions...

4. Spend as few Feats/Talents as possible in order to maximize whatever the hell else the party needs you to do.

Problem is... Rogues are not particularly good at #1 and are pretty bad at #2 and (consequently) #3. #4 could be said about any character of any class.

ChainsawSam wrote:

The Rogue now has access to 7 castings of Chill Touch a day. This is a spell which will give the rogue 12 touch attacks for 1d6 damage, and most importantly, easy access to Sneak Attacks despite the Rogue's terrible to hit bonuses. Three of those castings can be done as a Swift Action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Without spending a single feat, you overcome spell resistance just like a level 12 Elf Wizard.

Why not spend 375gp on a wand of Chill Touch (or whatever cantrip/spell you prefer) and use your Favored Class Bonus and Rogue Talents for something more useful? Whatever gold you spend on wands of cantrips and 1st-level spells is negligible by 5th level.


Lemmy wrote:
ChainsawSam wrote:

1. Positioning/Flanking

2. Hit things

3. Do damage

While not forgetting the Rogue's other functions...

4. Spend as few Feats/Talents as possible in order to maximize whatever the hell else the party needs you to do.

Problem is... Rogues are not particularly good at 1, are pretty bad at 2 and (consequently) 3. And 4 could be said about any character from any class.

ChainsawSam wrote:

The Rogue now has access to 7 castings of Chill Touch a day. This is a spell which will give the rogue 12 touch attacks for 1d6 damage, and most importantly, easy access to Sneak Attacks despite the Rogue's terrible to hit bonuses. Three of those castings can be done as a Swift Action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Without spending a single feat, you overcome spell resistance just like a level 12 Elf Wizard.

Why not spend 375gp on a wand of Chill Touch and use your Favored Class Bonus and Rogue Talents for something more useful? Whatever gold you spend on wands of cantrips and 1st-level spells is negligible by 5th level.

Rogues are plenty good at 1. They're overshadowed by Monks because of movement speed at first glance, but it is easier for a Rogue to ignore the penalties for moving full speed during Acrobatics than anyone else and later they get to take 10 on the roll.

What rogue talents or favored class options are "more useful?"

Rather than bending over backwards to try and hit an AC of 25 consistently I sacrificed only 12 favored class options and 2 talents to hit an AC of 16.

As far as wands go, they're not always an option and even when they are an option it is mediocre action economy to sacc 1 standard for 3 rounds of touch attacks (the first round of which is probably wasted using the wand).

Flame Blade is an amazing wand, 3 minutes of touch attacks for 1 standard action, but it fights SR at CL 3 and is the most commonly resisted damage type in the game.

I'd still recommend that everyone carry a wand of Flame Blade. It also might require proficiency in the Scimitar.


ChainsawSam wrote:
Rogues are plenty good at 1. They're overshadowed by Monks because of movement speed at first glance, but it is easier for a Rogue to ignore the penalties for moving full speed during Acrobatics than anyone else and later they get to take 10 on the roll.

Eh... I dunno. IMHO, Bards and Barbarians have better mobility thanks to spells, versatile performance and bardic performance for the former and Fast Movement, Pounce and/or Controlled Rage for the latter. Even Paladins can cast Grace to move without provoking. Magi and Ranger probably have similar options, though I can't remember any of the top of my head right now and I can't access HeroLab to check it at this moment... Full casters certainly do, but they don't count.

But what matters more is the unfortunate fact that CMD tends to scale faster than pretty much everything else in the game. Which is why maneuvers are kinda meh at mid/high levels...

ChainsawSam wrote:
What rogue talents or favored class options are "more useful?"

that extra hp really helps. I don't know about race-specific FCB.

ChainsawSam wrote:

Rather than bending over backwards to try and hit an AC of 25 consistently I sacrificed only 12 favored class options and 2 talents to hit an AC of 16.

As far as wands go, they're not always an option and even when they are an option it is mediocre action economy to sacc 1 standard for 3 rounds of touch attacks (the first round of which is probably wasted using the wand).

Flame Blade is an amazing wand, 3 minutes of touch attacks for 1 standard action, but it fights SR at CL 3 and is the most commonly resisted damage type in the game.

'd still recommend that everyone carry a wand of Flame Blade. It also might require proficiency in the Scimitar.

Those are good points, but how are you dealing constant Sneak Attack damage with ranged attacks? You can't flank, and your opponents won't be flat-footed forever. That's the main problem with ranged Rogues. If you just want that 1st Sneak Attack during the surprise round, might as well just buy a few wands instead of spending so many resources.

Which is sad, since I find the concept of Sniper Rogues to be really cool. Well, Rogues in general have a great fluff... Crunch is where they have problems.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

God I hate my mouse on my work PC. I had my PFS ninja all typed up at both level 1 and level 10, and I was just figuring out the last couple magical items to buy, when I accidentally closed out the tab and lost everything.

And now I don't even feel like typing it up again.

If you are using firefox I would suggest you get lazareus. Sometimes the Paizo board will eat a post. Even if the entire browser has to be shutdown you can right click and recover the information. It think there is a version for Chrome also.


Chill Touch, Elemental Touch, and Flame Blade are all touch attacks not ranged touch attacks. So you're poking people up close.

You're getting sneak attacks 3 ways.

1. Movement - As a scout, moving 10'+ gives you a sneak attack.

2. Charge - As a scout, charging gives you a sneak attack.

3. Flank

Usually you do 1 (while tumbling) to get 3.

The build's only options at range are to throw daggers, though a couple decent wands could change that as well. Whatever you do, since you're moving you'll get Sneak Attacks.

CMD isn't that big of an issue. Acrobatics checks are easy. The issue with CMD isn't the CMD itself, it is that at higher levels everything gets ridiculous bonuses to the useful maneuvers.

Example: A CR 12 Green Dragon has a CMD of 35.

12 skill points + 6 dex + 3 for being trained. 21. Boots of Elvenkind give you 26.

Take 10.

While we're on the subject of dragons...

That same Green Dragon has an AC of 27. Probably the 'best' build so far to hit this Dragon is Tark's kitty cat with +18 to hit. Tark needs a 9 to hit this dragon. This is admittedly pretty damn solid.

The Dragon's touch AC is 8.

8.

My build hits the Dragon on anything but a 1.

Though the Dragon has a Spell Resistance of 23. You could get around that with a wand of Elemental Touch, or just beat his Spell Resistance on a roll of 9 or better (7 or better with a single feat).


ChainsawSam wrote:

Chill Touch, Elemental Touch, and Flame Blade are all touch attacks not ranged touch attacks. So you're poking people up close.

You're getting sneak attacks 3 ways.

1. Movement - As a scout, moving 10'+ gives you a sneak attack.

2. Charge - As a scout, charging gives you a sneak attack.

3. Flank

Usually you do 1 (while tumbling) to get 3.

The build's only options at range are to throw daggers, though a couple decent wands could change that as well. Whatever you do, since you're moving you'll get Sneak Attacks.

1. Ah, yeah... I forgot about Scout. That helps.

2. Can you even charge with a ranged weapon? Is there any point to it?

3. You can't flank with a ranged weapon. But even if you could... If you plan to be that close to the opponent, why not simply attack (or feint, depending on your build) instead of using cantrips.

ChainsawSam wrote:
CMD isn't that big of an issue. Acrobatics checks are easy. The issue with CMD isn't the CMD itself, it is that at higher levels everything gets ridiculous bonuses to the useful maneuvers.

IME, size bonuses to CMD tend to be a problem as well. Especialy since they are often coupled with huge Str bonuses. But downright immunity to maneuvers is certainly the most annoying issue. This too is unfortunate. I love combat maneuvers, and wish they were more consistently useful, instead of being so abusive at low levels and near useless at mid/high levels save for a few exceptions...


ChainsawSam wrote:


Rogues are plenty good at 1(getting into a flanking position)

That depends on what level you play to. At higher levels CMD gets really tough to deal with, and even when taking skill focus(acrobatics) getting by is an issue. This starts around level 10 and just gets worse as the levels go up. The exploding CMD is the same reason why combat maneuvers fail more often.


There is no ranged weapon.

The build revolves around melee touch attacks.

With your fingers.

Boop.

Yes flanking, yes charge. No range.


I can see the sense of taking chill touch as a talent. Your caster level will give you more touches before you need to recast, and getting the quicken SLA feat keeps you from wasting an action.


ChainsawSam wrote:

There is no ranged weapon.

The build revolves around melee touch attacks.

With your fingers.

Boop.

Yes flanking, yes charge. No range.

Ah, I see.

But if that's the case, then you're in melee and has the same problems as other melee Rogues (Low HP, AC and CMD. Over dependency on flanking).

I'm not sure those extra cantrips are worth the -2 to Con. And ironically, +2 Int is not that good for Rogues. :(

301 to 350 of 2,211 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.