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Roll Needed To hit------1 attack-------- TWF or RS -2/-2
2-----------------------0.95------------1.7
3-----------------------0.90------------1.6
4-----------------------0.85------------1.5
5-----------------------0.80------------1.4
------------------6-----------------------0.75------------1.3
------------------7-----------------------0.70------------1.2
------------------8-----------------------0.65------------1.1
------------------9-----------------------0.60------------1.0
-----------------10----------------------0.55------------0.9
-----------------11----------------------0.50------------0.8
-----------------12----------------------0.45------------0.7
-----------------13----------------------0.40------------0.6
-----------------14----------------------0.35------------0.5
-----------------15----------------------0.30------------0.4
-----------------16----------------------0.25------------0.3
-----------------17----------------------0.20------------0.2
-----------------18----------------------0.15------------0.1
-----------------19----------------------0.10------------0.1
-----------------20----------------------0.05------------0.1
I'm terribly confused - are you looking for data more like this? Where it shows in 10 rounds of combat if you need to roll a 5 to hit with a single attack, the rogue with 1 attack statistically hits 8 times and the average rogue with Two Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot statistically hits 14 times?
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the people making homebrew posts and ideas for a new rogue class.
Thought that was probably it, no context in the post. Anyway, I might have been wrong about the duelist anyway, edited my post. There is nothing fancy in the build. Just pump up bluff, get feint (edit; all of them), and then profit.
My take-away from it is, rely on sneak attack, don't even worry about strength. Tailor-make the rogue to your campaign. It might be difficult to theory-craft a rogue because you have to optimize to a specific set of circumstances "at compile time", whereas a wizard could be "schroedingered" (for the lack of a better term) and optimized "at run time". Sorry for the programming jargon, not sure if they're common things people know! Best words I have, if the analogy is accurate.
Edit: However, I have few data points. Just my take-away.
I just dont understand the rogue hate.I understand it: people insist on making human rogues with high strength, low intelligence, low charisma, and moderate dexterity, then wonder why tackling the dragon head-on doesn't work.
Then show us how to do better. :)
Though in all honesty all the rogues I've seen fall in the category of two weapon fighters with weapon finnesse. I've seen maybe two rogues ever that two handed anything and used strength.
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From my understanding, the key for rogues in combat is flanking.
It is the easiest, most reliable way to get sneak attack. It also provides a +2 to hit, which should not ignored.
The rogue is not a solo combatant and needs a flanking buddy.
How to flank efficiently? REACH.
It is much easier to get a flanking position if you have a reach weapon.
It also reduces the chances of being hit.
For a single-class rogue, the longspear and the whip (half-orc, city-raised) come to my mind. I like the flavor of the whip style, though I should admit it's a feat-heavy way, especially if you plan to dump STR for DEX and Weapon Finesse.
Otherwise, you probably have to dip in a martial class for a better weapon selection. In this case, Barbarian is a solid choice => high Fort save and Rage, which boosts both your offense (+2 atk/dmg from STR) and defense (bonus to Fort, Will and HP). The AC penalty does not hurt so much, thanks to the reach weapon.
A second level of Barbarian gives you an early-entry for Uncanny dodge and a rage power. Not a bad trade IMHO.
You probably have to plan one or two "Extra Rage" feat, to ensure sufficient rage points.
With a reach weapon, you get AoO more frequently and your regular AoO will eventually be used for the Opportunist rogue talent. So get Combat Reflexes (or the Quick Reflexes rage power).
Power Attack is a basic way to increase your damages.
Thanks to the ruling about SLA, Arcane Strike is a viable option too (minor magic rogue talent or some specific racial SLA, such as Drow Magic for the half-elf).
I would stay away from the 2WF: too close from your opponent, less flanking positions, useless if you have to move more than 5ft.
I'm terribly confused - are you looking for data more like this? Where it shows in 10 rounds of combat if you need to roll a 5 to hit with a single attack, the rogue with 1 attack statistically hits 8 times and the average rogue with Two Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot statistically hits 14 times?
I think Grimmy's post threw you off. The post you made with the build was fine. This works too honestly.
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There are four rogue builds in the Guide to the Builds. All of them are extremely playable and some are, dare I say it, good. In my opinion, the standard two weapon fighting scout/knife master build is very viable (for example, The Shanker). Having played it for a campaign, I never felt out-shined in combat.
I would also like to bring up that classes are more than their in combat skills. If a rogue is worse than a fighter in combat, and better than a fighter out of combat, then they can still be a good class. Tons of skills, trapfinding, and access to plenty of other goodies make the class good regardless of combat ability.
In short: The class works in combat with a bit of optimization. Even if it didn't shine in combat, the class works because it excels out of combat.
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Then show us how to do better. :)I just dont understand the rogue hate.I understand it: people insist on making human rogues with high strength, low intelligence, low charisma, and moderate dexterity, then wonder why tackling the dragon head-on doesn't work.
Don't try to be a fighter when you're not a fighter.
See name of class: it doesn't say "fighter".
= = = = = =
The First Time I Learned Rogues Were Awesome:
Circa fifteen years, some Living Greyhawk organized-play module in which we, the overconfident PCs, were playing too far "up" when we really shouldn't have been.
Encounter: ambushed by thugs with spiked-chains in an ally. Now, these were 3rd-edition rule spiked-chains, carried by bruisers with Power Attack and Improved Trip, and wez-a-gonna-be-dead.
Then the "idiot" who wore a pot on his head and fought with a soup-ladle walked right up to and past all of them. Whiff!-whiff!-whiff!-whiff!.
-- With Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise ("How suboptimal! How to do I get DPR out of that?!?"), they couldn't hit his armor-class.
-- Once we knew they didn't have Combat Reflexes and the rogue had burned their AoOs, we pounded the tar out of them.
That guy carried the whole party through that scenario. He had more skillpoints than the rest of the table put together.
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Reach Weapons, Combat Patrol, Lunge, and Enlarge Person are the only ways I know to increase reach - to melee sneak attack at a distance.
Wis 12, Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Cha 7 (Favored Class Rogue) Human (+2 dex) L4 +1 dex, 5d8+20 hp, +10 ranged, +8 melee (2 ranged attacks = +8/+8, 3 ranged attacks = +6/+6/+6 ), Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +4, AC 18, CMB +4, CMD 15
Level 5 Rogue/Level 1 Heretic (Inquisitor Archetype)
Feats: Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Blinkback Belt (5kg), 4 MW Daggers (1,208g), Mithral Chain Shirt (1,100g), MW Thieve’s Tools (100g)
8,592 g remaining
Abilities: Judgment (Escape: shoot them in the face and rehide at no penalty), Lore of Escape (+wis to Bluff and Stealth), Hide Tracks (enemies receive -5 to finding my tracks), Stern Gaze (+1 intimidate/sense motive), Domain, Orisons, 3d6 Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +1, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Combat Focus (Point Blank Shot), 1 other Rogue Talent
Domain: Ambush (create concealment to hide in)
Orisons: Create Water, Detect Magic, Acid Splash, Light
L1 Spell: Cure Light Wounds, True Strike (2 L1 spells/day)
Skills: (1 rank) Climb (+5), Swim (+5), Intimidate (+3), Survival (+5), Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, nature, planes, religion) + 6
(6 ranks) Perception (+10), Stealth (+14), UMD (+7), Disable Device (+15)
I recommend 3 attacks until you have to roll a 16 or better, then 2 attacks instead. If you have to roll at 20 to hit with 2 attacks, might as well lob a 3rd.
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I would also like to bring up that classes are more than their in combat skills. If a rogue is worse than a fighter in combat, and better than a fighter out of combat, then they can still be a good class. Tons of skills, trapfinding, and access to plenty of other goodies make the class good regardless of combat ability.
An excellent point and worth exploring. Just bear in mind not once have I talked about comparing the rogue to a fighter. I do so off handedly about the ranger because that's the common reference.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the equivalents (again alchemist, bard, inquisitor) can have their combat cake and eat the skills too.
Admitting that we can't be as good as one or the other is admitting defeat. We should either strive to be better. OR else strive to find a unique niche.
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the people making homebrew posts and ideas for a new rogue class.
But honestly now I don't know.
Oh god he's a wizard who just cast confusion!
*gibbers incoherently*
Sorry, yeah, you understood me perfectly.
Wasn't commenting on your build Stazamos.
Sorry for confusing things further guys!
So,no build? and only one anecdote?
See name of class: it doesn't say "fighter".
= = = = = =
The First Time I Learned Rogues Were Awesome:
Circa fifteen years, some Living Greyhawk organized-play module in which we, the overconfident PCs, were playing too far "up" when we really shouldn't have been.
Encounter: ambushed by thugs with spiked-chains in an ally. Now, these were 3rd-edition rule spiked-chains, carried by bruisers with Power Attack and Improved Trip, and wez-a-gonna-be-dead.
Then the "idiot" who wore a pot on his head and fought with a soup-ladle walked right up to and past all of them. Whiff!-whiff!-whiff!-whiff!.
-- With Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise ("How suboptimal! How to do I get DPR out of that?!?"), they couldn't hit his armor-class.
-- Once we knew they didn't have Combat Reflexes and the rogue had burned their AoOs, we pounded the tar out of them.
That guy carried the whole party through that scenario. He had more skillpoints than the rest of the table put together.
Positive! Be positive!
Perhaps he will be so kind as to extrapolate this into somethign we cna use.
Is the lesson here to go for really high defense and forget the damage altogether? Is the lesson here to work for mobility and just take potshots when you can?
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There's always a smokestick if you need some concealment quickly.
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Instead of having the rogue trying and failing hopelessly to compete with the inquisitor, ranger, and bard what about putting him alongside them?Use something like a TWF knife master with minor magic and arcane strike (or a racial SLA and arcane strike) as the heavy hitter in a party actually designed for ambushes. Get Stealth Synergy on a bunch of people who are all actually good at stealth and your effectiveness at sneaking actually goes up with group size.
ftfy.
But there's an idea.
Could the rogue just stand alone?
Should he not be compared to anyone?
If so what would his expectations in the group be? Does it depend on build? Would taking archetypes sacrifice on those expectations?
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for scouting there's also the hellcat stealth feat and a dip into shadowdancer (or the shadow EH bloodline) to get HiPS in light and darkness to help on the stealth front, though shadowdancer eats a level and three feats (combat reflexes, dodge, mobility), while EH eats three as well (SF: stealth, EH, Imp. EH--hellcat stealth also requires SF: stealth, so that's helpful)
dampen presence feat also takes SF: stealth, and helps block blindsight/sense as well--combine with the above and oils of negate aroma for one seriously hard to find dude.
i dont take credit for those ideas, btw. look up the 'stealth beyond stealth' thread for more ideas.
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the shadowdancer route would have more overlap with the reach melee build, while the EH route would better serve a more stealth-centric build.
as for ways to bring them up to speed in combat: bandit, knife master, scout, thug, swordmaster, etc. are all quite good if you build to it's strengths (thugs in intimidate builds, scout in mobile builds, swordmaster in maneuver builds for semi-free pounce, and so on)
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Stated Goal: Rogue who can perform roguish functions while dealing as much damage as Similar part-combat classes.
Example Rogue Build, Level 12: The Shanker: 132 Skill points, Attacks at +13/+13/+8/+8 with av 31.5 on each sneak attack.
Example Alchemist Build, Level 12: Mad Bomber: 96 skill points. +14/+14/+14/+9 (v touch) with average 32 damage. Each bomb can do a variety of effects, can be thrown from range.
Example Ranger Build, Level 12: Mounted Ranger Archer. Few Skills. +13/+13/+8/+3, dealing average 15.5 damage per hit.
Example Bard Build, Level 12: Bard Skill Monkey. 119 Skill points. +12/+7, dealing 5.5 damage on each hit.
Example Inquisitor Build, Level 12: Dazzling Inquisitor. Very few Skill points. +14/+9, average 25 damage on each hit. Intimidating at +34.
The alchemist is doing a crap ton of damage, but in my mind that is more a function of the alchemist than a comparison with the rogue. Otherwise, the Rogue is great in situational combat, deals more than his buddies when used properly, and has more skills.
Mission accomplished?
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Nope. That's just getting started. Just as we can make many kinds of rogues we can make many kinds of other classes. And the numbers posted don't tell the whole story. We need lots and lots of data to get a good result. :)
For example 5.5 damage on each hit for the bard is a good "not moving" number. But what if he was doing what he was expected to do and use inspire courage? Or spells? Did we take into account versatile performance for the bard? He's also doing his damage at range, which is arguably better than trying to get a flank. So how many rounds would it take for the rogue to get into position while the bard has been plinking away the whole time while buffing the group?
And I suppose we should have to at some point define what roguish functions are and how we go about them. Skill points alone are clearly not enough it seems.
But perhaps Atarlost is right and we should not bother wiht comparisons. IF that's the case we should seek out our own niche separate from these classes and focus on making the rogue an irreplaceable part of the group.
This is not a mission. Nor an argument. This is a campaign to produce some practical results. And it might not ever be truly won. But if something good comes of it it's worthwhile.
Instead of having the rogue trying and failing hopelessly to compete with the inquisitor, ranger, and bard what about putting him alongside them?Use something like a TWF knife master with minor magic and arcane strike (or a racial SLA and arcane strike) as the heavy hitter in a party actually designed for ambushes. Get Stealth Synergy on a bunch of people who are all actually good at stealth and your effectiveness at sneaking actually goes up with group size.
ftfy.
But there's an idea.
Could the rogue just stand alone?
No. Not as a scout at any rate. No way to mitigate failure. A monk doesn't have the skill points to know what he's seeing or understand what he's hearing, but at least he can run away. A bard or ninja can re-stealth with vanish. A ranger or inquisitor or possibly bard can actually try to fight his way out of trouble.
As bad as feint is I doubt a rogue can stand alone period in a situation where combat might break out.
But that doesn't mean the rogue can't contribute if you stop trying to protect his niche within the party. A bard will push a rogue into an effective accuracy band and once you have the whole party dedicated to stealth the rogue becomes one of the best damage dealers rather than the worst as several of the usual top damage classes are poorly suited to stealth.
Once you work with a bard being instead of trying to compete sneak attack becomes a big deal and I'd guess that past level 5 knifemaster is better than vivisectionist at sneak attacking.
Well I was discussing from a figurative sense. With the idea that a rogue has something that is unique to the rogue and not hacked off adn attached to another class (trapfinding is like a bag of m&ms passed round the table).
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Disclaimer: All my groups play with Core + AOG only, so I don't have access to the fancy UC stuff and whatnot. With the limited materials, this is the "best" single-class rogue I can find.
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The scout archetype was already mentioned and I think it works decent enough with the right build.
Half-Orc. Trade Ferocity for a bite attack (or sacred tattoo and get a bite from another source like a trait). The bite attack is for another chance of inflicting sneak damage on a full attack.
Strength build. STR 16(+2 race), DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 7
Use a two-handed weapon (falchion/greataxe).
Feats:
1. Dodge
2. Weapon training: Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
4. Combat Trick: Furious Focus
5. Mobility
6. Offensive Defense
7. Spring attack
At level 8 you can use a charge or spring attack to get a free sneak attack. Spring attack is preferred because you can use the movement after the attack to get into flanking position without provoking AoOs. Power Attack without penalty is great for that too and helps with sneak immune foes. Mobility is useful when charging enemies with reach. As soon as you are in flanking position, full attack away with axe+bite. The bite won't hit too often but it's damage from a flank will be nice with sneak attack.
Equipment wise, you should go for the highest possible movement per round, i.e. light armor (or mithral medium) and boots of striding and springing or boots of haste.
You're still a glass cannon, but at least you can sneak attack with reasonable ease and your damage isn't laughable when you can't. Also no 2-weapon penalties.
Mobility and Offensive Defense should help your survival.
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There's one more major problem with the rogue you didn't mention. His main job is scouting and he's just not survivable. He can't fight his way out of trouble.
He's not supposed to.*
That's what escape and stealth and use magic device are for.
-- The party is for fighting.
You go back and get them.
= = = =
(*Note that a slippery rogue is going to come back from a mano-a-mano contest off alone with an over-powered monster more often than the hapless ranger or scout with lesser chances of wriggling out of a grapple.)
Are we supposed to suggest house rules or make builds under the current rules?<---skipped a lot of post.
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Side-note: I'm surprised by how so many critics of rogues tend to be unaware of the gravy that is Advanced Rogue Talents.
Did you fail your reflex-save on the ice and fall prone next to the Hasted I-TWF halfling who then declared Hunter's Surprise? ...steel yourself to be on the receiving end of over thirty dice inbound.
Are we supposed to suggest house rules or make builds under the current rules?<---skipped a lot of post.
Make builds. Suggest tactics and strategies that work. House rules don't really help other people but working within the rules will help more often than not.
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If you are looking for a strong option, I need say nothing more than Sap Adept/ Knockout Artist.
Personally though, I have to agree the rogue does not need fixing. The rogue is wildly popular. It doesn't make much difference if it is on par with other classes or not, people love playing it. I'm hard pressed to think of a game I have been in where there *wasn't* a character playing a rogue at one point or another. Straight rogue, not ninja, full class, not dip. I've played with many different gaming groups. Everybody loves the rogue.
Rogue is WAY more popular than the considerably "better" cleric, or durid, or even wizard class in my experience. The only class I see played consistently more than rogue is Fighter.
Which means... people are having fun playing the rogue. As it is. The game is about fun, is it not? So there is nothing that needs changing.
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The most reliable way I've seen "sneak attack on every attack" is making an Improved Disarm build and abusing Catch Off-Guard- -drop their weapon, deny their Dexterity. If they pick it up, you get sneak dice on the AoO as well.
Sap Adept + Sap Master work wonders- -doubling the bonus damage makes up for only usually getting sneak dice on half of your attacks. I've got a level 10 Halfling Rogue (Filcher Archetype) who has made great use of this, using Ninja tricks to get Improved Unarmed Strike as it's primary mode of attack.
And as for level 10, Weapon Snatcher, all day, every day.
If you are looking for a strong option, I need say nothing more than Sap Adept/ Knockout Artist.
That's great. LEssee some numbers.
Personally though, I have to agree the rogue does not need fixing. The rogue is wildly popular. It doesn't make much difference if it is on par with other classes or not, people love playing it. I'm hard pressed to think of a game I have been in where there *wasn't* a character playing a rogue at one point or another. Straight rogue, not ninja, full class, not dip. I've played with many different gaming groups. Everybody loves the rogue.Rogue is WAY more popular than the considerably "better" cleric, or durid, or even wizard class in my experience. The only class I see played consistently more than rogue is Fighter.
Which means... people are having fun playing the rogue. As it is. The game is about fun, is it not? So there is nothing that needs changing.
Okay opinion made. Not helpful though. The rogue is not here to win a popularity contest with the cleric. The cleric wins by dint of being popular with god.
Side-note: I'm surprised by how so many critics of rogues tend to be unaware of the gravy that is Advanced Rogue Talents.
Did you fail your reflex-save on the ice and fall prone next to the Hasted I-TWF halfling who then declared Hunter's Surprise? ...steel yourself to be on the receiving end of over thirty dice inbound.
That is assuming all of those attacks hit, which is another rogue problem.
Are we supposed to suggest house rules or make builds under the current rules?<---skipped a lot of post.Make builds. Suggest tactics and strategies that work. House rules don't really help other people but working within the rules will help more often than not.
Is multiclassing ok? If you say yes I am assuming the majority of the levels have to actually be in the rogue class. None of the rogue 1/class Y 15, and still calling it a rogue.
I suppose I misunderstood what we were doing here.
Well, if you are trying to find a build that is good in combat and can do roguish things (which in my mind are largely trapfinding and skills-based), then I think you have it. If not, then I am interested in seeing what you are looking for.
Mainly? A good hard mechanical reason to play a rogue over anything else. A place that isn't marginalized by one of several different classes. That used to be trapfinding. Well, traps are mostly just bad and typically can be bypassed by any number of means available to a group that doesn't involve the inevitability of a failed check. Skills? 8 skill points per level doesn't mean much to the alchemist who will end up with more skills overall just by dint of needing more intelligence. Bard will ahve versatile performance. He will easily outskill the inquisitor and ranger but in both cases they either have spells or fighting ability and class abilities to make up for that. So we want to find a spot that conforms to the rogues shape that can't just be fit into a different class very easily. I want to see if it's possible to make the decision between rogue and another class hard.
We can't make it a roleplay reason. We can roleplay nearly every potential concept a rogue can have into something else. So the interest has to be mechanical.
The goal I posted is just a place for mechanics to settle and to be observed. To see if we got something no one else can effectively accomplish with similar results.
Im not sure I understand the perceived problem with the rogue as presented by the OP.
1) Bad saves: Wizards, sorcerers, fighters, and more all have one good save and I see them used often enough. I would add that unlike most of those other classes they do not get a worthy class feature based on that good save (evasion).
The bad save can be boosted with Iron Will or Great Fortitude. As for evasion I rather have a class ability that helped my weak save, but we have what we have. :)
2) Hard to hit opponent: I agree that the rogue may not hit as much as it deserves but it has the solution to its own problem. By my count a finesse rogue has NO LESS than 4 rogue talents that can help him. In other words a rogue is comparable to the fighter in the number of combat feats up to about level 7 or 8. And BTW, almost every full BAB is going to be using power attack; thus decreasing his to hit chance but gaining damage. I would be looking at the damage output as opposed to chance to hit.
Those have been counted before and the rogue still does not hit as much, and the "to hit" counts because if you dont hit, then you don't do damage, and raising to hit is a better way to increase DPR then fiddling with damage itself. Weapon focus is better for boosting damage than weapon specialization. Also those classes not only have full BAB but class features that help to negate power attack to some extent.
3) Skills versus spells: the spells are almost always going to win. but you can only do that so many times but skills can be used over and over. In generalities I would be more concerned about a caster who is using spells that support skills (or overcome those skill challenges) rather than supporting me in battle than I would regret seeing a rogue in the party.
It is not so much that the rogue can't be played. The common opinion is that you are better off choosing what you want to be good at, and then choosing another class instead, but we are getting off topic here.
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kay, here's a build made by flamethrower49, a friend of mine.
Fridthjofr
CN Male Human Vargr 7 (Swashbuckler/Scout)
Medium SizeStrength 20
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 12
Charisma 10Attack – Unarmed Strike +11 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Magic) for 1d3+6 (+5 Str, +1 Magic)
Or Cold Iron Battleaxe +11 for 1d8+6 or +10 for 1d8+8 (two-hand grip)
Or Sling +9 for 1d6+6
Hit Points 7d8+14+4 = 56
Initiative +5 (+3 Dex, +2 Trait)
Speed 30 Feet
AC 22 (+5 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Shield, +1 Natural, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge)
Fortitude +6 (+2 Base, +2 Con, +2 Resistance)
Reflex +10 (+5 Base, +3 Dex, +2 Resistance)
Will +5 (+2 Base, +1 Wis, +2 Resistance) (+2 Morale vs Fear)
CMB +11 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Magic)
CMD 25 (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge)Traits:
Chance Savior (+2 Initiative)
Armor Expert (-1 to Armor Check Penalty)Feat and Talent scheme:
1: Sap Adept (+2 damage per sneak attack die if nonlethal and bludgeoning.)
H1: Dodge (+1 AC)
2: Talent: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training) (Improved Unarmed Strike)
3: Knockout Artist (+1 damage per sneak attack die if unarmed nonlethal to someone denied their dexterity bonus.)
4: Talent: Ninja Trick (Style Master - Crane Style) (-2 Attack, +4 AC if fighting defensively.)
5: Sap Master (Double sneak attack dice if nonlethal bludgeoning to someone flat-footed.)
6: Talent: Combat Trick (Outflank) (+4 to flank with someone else with this feat. Free attack on a crit!)
H2: Talent: Offensive Defense (+AC equal to sneak attack dice after a sneak attack.)
7: Crane Wing (Block a melee attack 1/round while using Crane Style)Class Features
Sneak Attack 4d6
Martial Training – May take the Combat Trick twice. Proficient with battleaxe.
Evasion – No damage on a successful reflex save.
Daring - +2 to Acrobatics checks and Will saves against fear.
Scout’s Charge – Opponents are treated as flat-footed on a charge.
So basically, high init to attack while flat footed, or scouts charge makes them flat footed on a charge, hit for 1d3+8d6+30 if I'm doing my math correctly. Still have strong sneak atacks while flanking or sneak attacking "normally", outflank to get in some extra flank hits and help ensure attacks land. Crane Style and Offensive Defense to make sure he stays alive. Very solid.
I appreciate you feel that rogues popularity isn't helpful.... I already guessed you'd say that. Sorry it isn't what you want to hear. I think you're just looking at it entirely the wrong way. You're looking at it purely from a "character power" level and ignoring that people don't play the game just for that reason. They play to have fun, and the rogue is fun, whether or not it is powerful.
Im not sure I understand the perceived problem with the rogue as presented by the OP.
1) Bad saves: Wizards, sorcerers, fighters, and more all have one good save and I see them used often enough. I would add that unlike most of those other classes they do not get a worthy class feature based on that good save (evasion).
The issue here is that a reflex save does not often kill characters as much as failing against a fort or a will save. I'm not saying it can't mind you but you're going to die more often to a failed fort save than a failed reflex. Plus, two of the classes mentioned are full casters meaning they usually have other means to defend themselves.
The rogue is entirely reflex. Which is fine, except his other peers also have reflex and typically have fort or will as well. So, this gives the rogue the very dubious distinction of being the only non-casting, non-full bab class with one good save.
I would be looking at the damage output as opposed to chance to hit.
DPR formulas typically include both damage and to-hit versus a specific target number.
And we can't forget that at least in the case of the rogue raw numbers don't mean as much as positioning, as without a flank or flat footed opponent his extra damage is essentially meaningless. Worse, his biggest damage dealer can be mitigated by anything granting concealment making his feat taxes even worse.
These are problems that need to be considered and overcome.
Is multiclassing ok? If you say yes I am assuming the majority of the levels have to actually be in the rogue class. None of the rogue 1/class Y 15, and still calling it a rogue.Are we supposed to suggest house rules or make builds under the current rules?<---skipped a lot of post.Make builds. Suggest tactics and strategies that work. House rules don't really help other people but working within the rules will help more often than not.
As I said above dipping is okay. If the rogue has to dip to get where we want than so be it.
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For the record: Master Sawatashi Hasegawa
CG Halfling Rogue 10
10 Str
25 Dex (19, +2 levels (4,8), +4 item)
12 Con
16 Int (14, +2 item)
10 Wis
10 Cha
AC: 20 (10 +2 Armor, +7 Dex, +1 Size) (+1 against larger foes)
HP: 63
Fort: +5
Reflex: +14
Will : +4 (+1 Trait)
Initiative: +9 (+7 Dex, +2 trait)
BAB: 7/2
Speed: 30ft.
CMD:+6 (+8 against Disarm)
CMB: +23 (+25 against Disarm)
Acrobatics +15
Appraise +13
Bluff +8
Diplomacy +9
Disable +15
Disguise +8
Escape artist +15
Knowledge(Arcana) +13
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +15
Knowledge(Local) +15
Knowledge(Nature)+12
Knowledge(Planes)+12
Knowledge(Religion)+12
Perception +10
Sense Motive +4
Sleight of Hand +25 (+5 item)
Stealth +19
UMD +13 (Headband Skill)
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Sap Adept
4: Improved Steal (from Archetype)
4: Ninja Trick: Deflect Arrows
5: Sap Master
6: Ninja Trick: Combat Style: Kirin Style
7: Combat Expertise
8: Greater Steal
8: Combat Talent: Improved Disarm
9: Kirin Strike
10: Weapon Snatcher
+1 Brawling Silken Ceremonial Armor
+3 Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes
+0 Agile, Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists
Headband of Int +2
Belt of Dex +4
Gloves of Larceny
Boots of the Cat
Swarmbane Clasp
Melee: Unarmed Strike +20/+15 (+7/2 BAB, +7 DEX, +2 Brawling, +3 Bodywrap, +1 Size); 1d2 + 12 (+7 Dex, +2 Brawling, +3 Bodywrap)
NOTE: The bodywrap can only be used on two unarmed strikes per round. If I make both iteratives, Attacks of opportunity are at +17, for 1d2+9.
Kirin Strike: If I have successfully identified a creature with a Knowledge check, I can add an additional +6 damage to a single strike.
Sneak Attack (Lethal): 5d6
Sneak Attack (Nonlethal): 10d6+10
Disarm: +27 (Weapon Snatcher)
Steal: +29
Ranged: +1 Merciful Sling +16; 1d3 damage
(Slinging from invisibility allows for Sap Master to trigger.)
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Like everything in D&D/Pathfinder, the game is not played solo, so you have to take the rest of the party into account with any build you play. There are SOME builds that work fine without taking this into consideration, and it has been my personal experience that the Roleplayed personality of those characters tends to reflect that and make them less fun to play with. The Rogue uses the Wizard's intelligence to find out what they're probably going to be up again, relies on the Fighter to give him bonuses to hit and distract the difficult enemies, and otherwise tries to have a tool for every occasion.
The first thing I do making a Rogue is buy anything from the most basic items that seems like it might have a use somewhere down the line. Later in the game, I resort to a Traveler's Any-Tool. Truly, a Rogue's best friend. After that, the Rogue should have one or two (I prefer two) weapons he focuses on, or a double weapon if that's your bag. Beyond those, however, he better have access to some weapons of interesting materials, at least until he's high enough level that at least one of his weapons is a +4.
To all the players I've seen dumping Int on a Rogue: Why? Your own knowledge of a situation shouldn't affect how you go about something in game. If your Rogue doesn't know the answer, he's out of luck. So make him smart enough that he will! I suggest at least a 12-14 here, if you spread your skills out intelligently. Plus, it qualifies you for Combat Expertise, which is considered a feat tax by some, but I've found situations where the party is in a bad spot and the Rogue is enjoying his ability to turtle just a little bit more and avoid those nasty hits. Plus, just look through the lists... there are some fun and promising feats that Combat Expertise is required for.
It is true that some classes can fill a Rogue's role just as well as a Rogue if not perhaps better, but you know what? The Rogue is all about bragging rights! He got the job done, and while he may not have done it with the same flair, the same panache... he wouldn't be screwed in a AMF or zone of Silence, either (At least no more than the purely martial characters in the party).
I know a lot of what I said comes down to money, a finite resource, but, guess what? You're the Rogue! Steal, bribe, cheat, bluff, finagle, and otherwise snatch that money right out of the enemies hands (Or the local townsfolk, or even other party members...). Be a Rogue, do what Rogues do best... improvise!
I appreciate you feel that rogues popularity isn't helpful.... I already guessed you'd say that. Sorry it isn't what you want to hear. I think you're just looking at it entirely the wrong way. You're looking at it purely from a "character power" level and ignoring that people don't play the game just for that reason. They play to have fun, and the rogue is fun, whether or not it is powerful.
Therein lies the trouble. Fun is subjective. Your experience may not necessarily match mine nor those who despair their decisions in how they built their rogue.
That's why we can't use it. Your fun or my fun does not necessarily compute to their fun. I can say, though, that someoen is more likely to have fun when they're a decent contributing member of the group rather than marginalized for their decision.
In anycase I appreciate the posted build. :)
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So I think most people that respond or discuss optimization here on the advice boards more or less agree that if it comes down to a question of things a rogue can do there's usually a class or ability that straight up blows the class out of the water. When compared to it's relative spellcasting equivalents; the alchemist, the bard, or the inquisitor one finds it extraordinarily difficult to justify playing a rogue concept when any of the other three or a ranger would do just better and without the vast limitations put on the class by sneak attack and a host of issues regarding finding hit bonuses.
Today, we will setting out to make the class work.
I think a lot of the problems for the class do not stem from the class itself as much as it stems from preconceptions of the player. Finnesse fighting just isn't that good. Neither is two weapon fighting. A class that's lightly armored has little to no business rushing forward into an enemy to get full attacks. Frankly, even without the rogue attached none of this feels like a good idea. But anyway let's stop rambling and get on to the business.
First the goal
I'm going to make our goal here as clear as possible. We wish to make a rogue (PURE rogue) that can perform roguish functions while dealing enough damage in combat to be on par with his spellcasting peers (bards, aclehmists, etc.). We do not want to surpass them as that may prove more difficult than it's worth.
Dipping is allowed but only like one or two levels the overall strength of the build should be founded on the rogue not a level of fighter or gunslinger.
Our tools
Just so we have a common ground to work with here keep things paizo published, and 20pt. buy.
Builds posted if any must be functional at all levels and try to come to fruition at or before 10th level (because we want to talk to the pfs crowd as well)
Our challenges
Let's look at our troubles.
Saves: We have one good save. And it's reflex. This is bad for us....
The problem with the Rogue isn't the Rogue, it is the other classes.
someone is more likely to have fun when they're a decent contributing member of the group rather than marginalized for their decision.
I could argue that since fun is subjective, as you say, it's totally plausible that a player ONLY has fun when there character is marginalized and not contributing in a meaningful way. I once played a game with a druid whose primary attack during combat was call lightning -3d6 damage with a save for half to one target. He was still using this or its big brother, Call Lightning Storm at 20th level. He didn't seem to mind at all.
Regardless, my advice for a rogue who is looking to contribute in a party in a meaningful way is simply not to run with ultra min/maxed characters. They'll do just fine.
Right I'm off to bed. I'm sure this thing will explode in posts and chances are will give me a headache when I look back on it.
At some point I will go through and coalesce the builds and ideas dropped so far to find some form of consensus.