Why should the rogue get this?
I just provided an example of how a rogue without a penny to his name could kill a tank fighter and not take a scratch.
Granted, it's situational; but it's a situation the rogue controls. In the right environment, he's the boss.
Well there you have it. A rogue just needs to be able to create reality marbles like Rider from Fate/Zero.
Can ypou post them? maybe between levels 8 and 12.
Stay tuned. The builds are coming, near the end of what's turning into a post series.
-Matt
Because the process itself tells us much about why the class could use an overhaul. But the results and how we get their also helps players who want to be effective now.
Well, I hope that the posts I'm adding to this thread help demonstrate what you're looking for.
-Matt
I believe that there is also the feat Piranha Strike which is the dex version of power attack. You would negate your +2 flank bonus but get extra damage.
craked pale green prism ioun stone
Aha! I knew I had forgotten something which belongs in the list of ways to improve attack bonus! Thanks!
-Matt
I just want to point out for some in the discussion
Displacement does not grant concealment. The devs weighed in on this and blur does grant concealment while displacement does not.
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I just want to point out for some in the discussion
Displacement does not grant concealment. The devs weighed in on this and blur does grant concealment while displacement does not.
A Cloak of Displacement (Major) gives a few rounds of the Displacement spell.
A Cloak of Displacement (Minor) gives a constant effect of the Blur spell.
So for Moonlight Stalker, a Major Cloak of Displacement has always been unsatisfactory (due to the limited number of rounds) compared to the minor version. If the ruling you've mentioned has been made then that just buries the major version even deeper.
Yeah its been talked about pretty in depth. Blur actually makes you harder to see, displacement means that there is just a 50% chance that you aren't there when an attack lands.
So you can sneak attack a target with displacement but not blur. Makes sense based on the descriptions, but it is good information for a rogue to have.
I should also mention that the heartseeker weapon enchantment lets you sneak atttack creatures with concealment as does a headband of ninjitsu (arguably thr best rogue item available)
a headband of ninjitsu (arguably thr best rogue item available)
Right, the headband; that thing should also go on the list of attack roll boosters.
-Matt
The only struggle for this character is being able to land hits against heavily armored enemies...Wand of Elemental Touch?
At a good high level. The dc is always 20.
At a good high level. The dc is always 20.The only struggle for this character is being able to land hits against heavily armored enemies...Wand of Elemental Touch?
You can also use a wand of twilight knife to summon an excellent flank partner.
The only struggle for this character is being able to land hits against heavily armored enemies...Wand of Elemental Touch?
Flame Blade is probably better.
Since I am being quoted I feel I should chime in and say that the build was meant to emulate aclassical fencer.
Hitting can be a bit of a bother, but there are a few things not presented in that build that make it better at higher levels:
Headband of ninjitsu = +2 to hit (can be equipped with a circlet of persuasion, different slot)
Grabbing dramatic display and master combat performer is another +2
Duelists Vambraces give +2 to one offhand attack per round
And here is the crazy thing for high end, you are performing as a free action and dramatic display is an untyped bonus. Theoretically it should stack with multiple uses.
And you get a check anytime you feint, crit, roll max damage (not hard on a d6 or a d4) charge or kill.
As for weapons, once you have master combat performer, the offhand should switch to a quadrens for the +2 to performance checks
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Sorry for quoting myself but it fits in both threadsd:
The problem with the rogue-class is that it is not the best way to build a rogue.
If you have several classes, all of them covering the "rogue" theme completely (keep in mind, classes are just mechanical constructs, what your chrarakter is like has nothing to do with its class - the class just provides different abilities) then there is no real reason to play an actual rogue. There is no advantage the rogue-class has over some other classes in playing the "sneaky role".
If you renamed the bard, the ranger and the rogue "class 1", "class 2" and "class 3" and someone wanted to play a rogue-like charakter then - after checking out and understanding those three mechanical bases he can use for his charakter, I highly doubt someone who has understood the mechanics of the game would pick "class 3" - the actual rogue.
The only thing it provides over the other classes is SA and yea, thats an incombat ability that is - combined with the rest of the mechanical construct "rogue" - not worth picking the class over one of the others.
Honestly I'd predict if the class would not be named "rogue" it would not be played much at all and if so then by those who do not understand that sneak attack is not the best way to DPR (excluding those really tough optimized rogue-builds, especially those sap-THF-ones, but I feel like thise are not played that much anyway, even though I think its probably the best to do with your rogue).
Haven't read the entire thread but nowhere have I seen natural attacks getting mentioned. There are a number of racial options that paired with a little bit of cheese can start the game with 3 natural attacks and via an 8k item can pick a fourth up easily.
While not solving the issue of qualifying for sneak attacks, natural attacks mesh quite well with the Rogue. More attacks automatically imply more potential sneak attacks. Your poor to hit is not further hindered by TWF penalties, and you don't care about the loss of iteratives. Also no feats need to expended on gaining these extra attacks so you can use those on other things that shore up your defenses.
A particularly nice blend of cheese that can be pulled of starting level 1 is claw attacks (which deal bludgeoning and slashing) paired with the Blade of Mercy trait, the Enforcer Feat and the Thug archetype.
Edit: This might even work with the sap master line of feats... hmm that would be really awesome.
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I just provided an example of how a rogue without a penny to his name could kill a tank fighter and not take a scratch.
Granted, it's situational; but it's a situation the rogue controls. In the right environment, he's the boss.
Unfortunately that environment exists only in your mind.
The rogue has no accuracy advantage. The availability of concealment and cover hurts the rogue at least as much as the fighter.
You need to go back and re-read the example I set for you.
There's a halfling rogue facing off a human fighter in a dimly-lit maze.
-- The human fighter (without low-light vision) is going to *die* because he cannot see the person who is killing him, because that person will continually evade into the gloom after each snipe. The fighter is never within visual range at the beginning of his turn. His opposed stealth score versus the rogue's perception is pathetic. The rogue's opposed stealth score versus the fighter's perception is superb.
In this particular case, the fighter's only real option, if alone, is to run away as fast as he can.
Any competent fighter can exchange readied action attacks for your spring attacks or thrown weapons until you do something stupid like try to stay in one place and full attack with thrown knives. Then he walks over to you and trips your sorry 3/4 BAB arse and doesn't even need the feats because your CMD is that much worse than his CMB. Then he full attac--
Typical fighter-think. Always bringing a melee weapon to a ranged assassination party, and then desperately hoping the opponent will "do something stupid".
I just provided an example of how a rogue without a penny to his name could kill a tank fighter and not take a scratch.
Granted, it's situational; but it's a situation the rogue controls. In the right environment, he's the boss.
Any class is likely to win in an environment where they can see and their opponent can't. (And any class can get a decent stealth bonus.) But this requires the rogue to be facing a character who has wandered into a dark area without any kind of darkvision or bringing proper lighting. You can't rely on the enemy doing something stupid like that.
If you're a caster, of course, you can cast darkness spells, or cast Greater Invisibility, and create that situation easily.
I've always been pretty cozy with the Rogue class and the Rogue role, not sure why they get such a bad rep.
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IMO the rogue should be an opportunist/skirmisher while in combat instead of fighting side by side with pure martial characters.
I'm currently playing a 7th level halfling rogue/fighter (Bandit/Sniper_4-Crossbowman_3) focused on ranged combat in the "Wrath of the Righteous" campaign path. The main concept is to optimize the "one shot one kill" tactics which of course is not possible except on certain circumstances but so far it is a quite pleasing concept.
I used from ARG the low blow and swift as shadows racial traits since the main method of damage is sniping and confirming the critical ranged attacks with a crossbow vs everyone larger is quite welcome with a crossbow (reduce person wand makes wonders also for me).
For Rogue talents I chose Snapshot (it has perfect synergy with Bandit) and Sniper's Eye
While planning to get later underhanded for nasty opening in surprise rounds, surprise attack for those opponents with special abilities during surprise round (yes that’s you Diviner Wizard) and for advanced rogue talent I'll get stealthy sniper.
I plan to get five more levels as fighter somewhere between 11-13th level for crossbow expert and improved deadshot yet even with 8 levels of fighter there are very few feats to spare for an optimized archery build so I chose to cover my lack of feats with magic items so my feat progression goes as follows:
R1st Point Blank Shot
R3rd Deadly Aim
F5th Far Shot, Rapid Reload (bonus – Fighter)
F6th Weapon Focus (Crossbow) (bonus – Fighter)
F7th Vital Strike
-----------------
R9th Extra Rogue Talent (Ninja Trick – Extra Range)
F11th Devastating Strike, Weapon Specialization (Crossbow) (bonus – Fighter)
F13th Improved Vital Strike (bonus – fighter), Point Blank Master
R15th Improved Devastating Strike
R17th Critical Focus
R19th Disrupting Shot
F20th Greater Vital Strike (bonus – Fighter)
A total of 12 levels of Rogue and 8 levels of Fighter
I haven’t mentioned several Rogue Talents (and advanced) since I haven’t thought about them yet but as I mentioned earlier I have chosen some magic items to cover my lack of feats.
-Crossbow enhancements:
Seeking, Distance, Stalking, Keen, +5 Enhancement
-Sniper Goggles (for those cases when real sniping is needed)
-Wand of Weaponwand
-Wand of Vanish
-Wand of True Strike
-Ghost Touch Bolts +1
-Wand of Reduce Person
-Wand of Gravity Bow
-Bracers of Archery Greater
-Belt of Dexterity
It's a one trick pony alright but most "optimized" characters are.
IMO by adding some rogue talents that could emulate other class abilities and by introducing some new archetypes or revise older ones like the sniper (pls allow them to snipe with firearms) the rogue can get the prestige it deserves as one of the main four classes.
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I like how soooo many people are not complying with the OP and posting builds that work (like I did) and just putting up anecdotes and 'rogues are x' opinions (which the op specifically asked us NOT to do)
This is a thread for kick ass rogue builds people, if you can't contribute one, please remain silent.
Waits for the haters...
I just provided an example of how a rogue without a penny to his name could kill a tank fighter and not take a scratch.
Granted, it's situational; but it's a situation the rogue controls. In the right environment, he's the boss.
Unfortunately that environment exists only in your mind.
The rogue has no accuracy advantage. The availability of concealment and cover hurts the rogue at least as much as the fighter.
You need to go back and re-read the example I set for you.
There's a halfling rogue facing off a human fighter in a dimly-lit maze.
-- The human fighter (without low-light vision) is going to *die* because he cannot see the person who is killing him, because that person will continually evade into the gloom after each snipe. The fighter is never within visual range at the beginning of his turn. His opposed stealth score versus the rogue's perception is pathetic. The rogue's opposed stealth score versus the fighter's perception is superb.
Once again that has nothing to do with being a rogue. It is based on one race having an advantage based on the setting. You can replace rogue with inquisitor or bard, two other 3/4 BAB classes and get similar results.
Now if you can show what being a rogue had to do with it, then I will retract my statement.
Here's a first idea for a Catfolk Claw build that relies on the fact that claws deal bludgeoning and piercing damage to do silly things with Blade of Mercy and Sap Adept/Sap Master. By level 8 it has it's primary schtick set up and before that it can rely heavily on the super powerful Enforcer/Thug combo.
Vicious claws combo rather nicely with Sap Master later on. And once you have Shatter Defenses set up at level 8 there's no stopping the hurt...
Catfolk Rogue (Thug)
Str 10
Dex 18 (Level increases go here)
Con 14
Wis 12
Int 11
Cha 14
Traits:
Adopted: Tusked
Blade of Mercy
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1 Enforcer
2 Finesse Rogue
3 Sap Adept
4 WF Claws
5 Sap Master
6 Vicious Claws
7 Dazzling display
8 Shatter Defense
9 Extra Rogue Talent (Offensive Defense)
iirc, Toothy is a Half-Orc Racial Trait.
Adopted means, you can pick a trait from a different race (race trait), but noch a racial trait.
Your build might work with a tengu.
I meant Tusked which is a trait from orcs of Gollarion... mother's teeth also works if you want to be raised by Goblins!
Tengu would work as well but does not gain access to vicious claws which might not be needed but paired with sap master is worth quite a bit of damage (on average 1 per level per attack).
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I like how soooo many people are not complying with the OP and posting builds that work (like I did) and just putting up anecdotes and 'rogues are x' opinions (which the op specifically asked us NOT to do)
This is a thread for kick ass rogue builds people, if you can't contribute one, please remain silent.
Waits for the haters...
Ok I'll bite...
First of all I apologize for ignoring totally the OP's initial post, my bad mate.I posted my character build considering that this was an optimization thread for rogue builds that can work (being multiclass or not matters little as optimization usually involves multiclassing with base, core or prestige classes.)
Going "Hater" mode
To dear STR Ranger, I really admired your suggested Kick Ass Build...
BUT the archetype is called THUG not Brute don't confuse the Hater community.
Following the critical route with moderate base attack is a gamble and sneak attack is already a gamble on its own, not worth the risk.
Going in melee along with martial characters with low AC, without Uncanny Dodge and expecting for offensive defense to kick in you are probably dead meat.
Not to mention your optimized 11 Wisdom, good luck with that dominate person you big mean killing machine. ;D
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Unfortunately unlike the 3.5 edition now the Rogue is the 5th party member replacing the Bard.
What we have now is a moderate BA character that can be a skill monkey but with no mechanic benefiting from high intelligence except its capstone ability, a trapfinder that is overwhelmed by archetypes like the Archeologist Bard, not to mention one of the most useful skills for a rogue UMD that several casters (summoner, sorcerers even paladins with or without the trait) are better than the rogue.
(no the trait that uses INT for UMD doesn't save the rogue since Wizards Magus and Witch can take this too).
Restriction to light armor if you value Evasion and Improved Evasion (who doesn't), a nice defense against other rogues/sneak attackers unless you get feinted and finally a powerful gambling mechanic called sneak attack that has too many vulnerabilities for its awesome potential.
As for rogue talents regardless of how awesome some of them are there is a certain mechanic that foils most of them.
All sneak attack related talents cannot be combined unlike rage powers like totems for totem barbarian, critical feats with critical mastery or magus arcanas.
Certainly several archetypes give interesting and even competitive options for the rogue like scout and knife master but still none of them can cover the weaknesses of the class as the OP mentioned, bad saves, no BA boosting (except finesse rogue and weapon training) and low survivability.
My suggestions are the following:
1. Give the rogue a way to identify if his target may be sneak attacked see Inquisitor's Monster Lore.
2. Either replace trap sense or give him a "Luck Pool" like the Grit of Gunslingers (similar mechanics and all) that allow him to luck out from tough spots like failed saves on ongoing effects.
(This would be nice to utilize with high Intelligence, being macguyver and stuff)
3. Introduce a feat or advanced talent that allows him to combine two sneak attack related talents.
4. Sneak attack is all about hitting a vulnerable vital spot so maybe a bonus on called shots could be introduced with sneak attack like +1 on called shots every two dices of sneak attack damage.
I really should have put down that this is in the interest of using optimization to work out how to make them effective.
Not in creating home brew rules.
Oh... I thought that was the whole point of your post. My bad.
There's lots of ways to make them effective. It's just harder to make them as effective at one thing as many other classes or make them the jack of all trades they are supposed to be and not be overshadowed by the bard/ranger/inquisitor/wizard every time. Sometimes this quest is even impossible some might say.
I have seen very effective rogues. The ones that do use all the resources at their disposal every time and play it smart (tough to do sometimes) by using their strengths and applying them well.
Some ground rules to remember to play your rogue well.
1. You are squishy. Remember this and always try to create and keep an advantage. Do not go in without a plan.
2. Sneak attack takes planning so have a plan. No plan = no sneak.
3. Skills are another strength. Learn all you can about getting the most out of them. Scrounge for every advantage.
4. Do not ignore use magic device as a skill. I have seen rogues dominate with careful application of this skill. Again, it takes a lot of planning and investment.
5. Mundane alchemical stuff can open up a lot of options for the clever rogue such as gaining concealment so you can stealth and tanglefoot bags and so on. Be creative.
You may notice from my above list that there is no "build" mentioned. The build is not as important as the approach to the class. The rogue has no innate magical ability nor does he have the hardcore martial training that other classes do so he has to work harder and play smarter than almost any other class. In the end, that is the challenge and reward of playing a rogue well IMHO.
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I really should have put down that this is in the interest of using optimization to work out how to make them effective.
Not in creating home brew rules.
Oh... I thought that was the whole point of your post. My bad.
There's lots of ways to make them effective. It's just harder to make them as effective at one thing as many other classes or make them the jack of all trades they are supposed to be and not be overshadowed by the bard/ranger/inquisitor/wizard every time. Sometimes this quest is even impossible some might say.
I have seen very effective rogues. The ones that do use all the resources at their disposal every time and play it smart (tough to do sometimes) by using their strengths and applying them well.
Some ground rules to remember to play your rogue well.
1. You are squishy. Remember this and always try to create and keep an advantage. Do not go in without a plan.
2. Sneak attack takes planning so have a plan. No plan = no sneak.
3. Skills are another strength. Learn all you can about getting the most out of them. Scrounge for every advantage.
4. Do not ignore use magic device as a skill. I have seen rogues dominate with careful application of this skill. Again, it takes a lot of planning and investment.
5. Mundane alchemical stuff can open up a lot of options for the clever rogue such as gaining concealment so you can stealth and tanglefoot bags and so on. Be creative.You may notice from my above list that there is no "build" mentioned. The build is not as important as the approach to the class. The rogue has no innate magical ability nor does he have the hardcore martial training that other classes do so he has to work harder and play smarter than almost any other class. In the end, that is the challenge and reward of playing a rogue well IMHO.
Another thing I notice is that your ground rules don't really need to be applied to the rogue class; all of them are just different ways of saying 'plan ahead'. Doesn't that mean the alchemists, rogues, and bards who 'plan ahead' are still on top of the rogue?
Another thing I notice is that your ground rules don't really need to be applied to the rogue class; all of them are just different ways of saying 'plan ahead'. Doesn't that mean the alchemists, rogues, and bards who 'plan ahead' are still on top of the rogue?
Oh... I thought that was the whole point of your post. My bad.There's lots of ways to make them effective. It's just harder to make them as effective at one thing as many other classes or make them the jack of all trades they are supposed to be and not be overshadowed by the bard/ranger/inquisitor/wizard every time. Sometimes this quest is even impossible some might say.
I have seen very effective rogues. The ones that do use all the resources at their disposal every time and play it smart (tough to do sometimes) by using their strengths and applying them well.
Some ground rules to remember to play your rogue well.
1. You are squishy. Remember this and always try to create and keep an advantage. Do not go in without a plan.
2. Sneak attack takes planning so have a plan. No plan = no sneak.
3. Skills are another strength. Learn all you can about getting the most out of them. Scrounge for every advantage.
4. Do not ignore use magic device as a skill. I have seen rogues dominate with careful application of this skill. Again, it takes a lot of planning and investment.
5. Mundane alchemical stuff can open up a lot of options for the clever rogue such as gaining concealment so you can stealth and tanglefoot bags and so on. Be creative.You may notice from my above list that there is no "build" mentioned. The build is not as important as the approach to the class. The rogue has no innate magical ability nor does he have the hardcore martial training that other classes do so he has to work harder and play smarter than almost any other class. In the end, that is the challenge and reward of playing a rogue well IMHO.
No
A Craven Fleet of Foot Halfling gets an extra +1 when he is flanking, which including his +1 size bonus gives him +4 to hit when he is flanking. All you have to do is simulate flanking to gain a bonus that is pretty much equal to the bonus from Arcane Accuracy or Smite Evil.
Maxing out DEX and taking Piranha Strike, while letting STR dip a little actually leaves you with the same attack bonus and damage as having a mediocre STR and DEX, but at later levels when things like Agile Weapons become available your damage flips and rivals a fighters.
Goblins can do basically the same thing.
This is really one of those headache-threads:S
master_marshmallow: Do the math and you will find out that your halfling rogue still won't compete to most full-BAB classes when it comes to DPR. That has been done so many times on these boards and while there were some okay builds (mostly the THF-ones) the rogue is still squishier AND sacrifices a lot of rogue-stuff.
And yes, I know its not about DPR - I juest replied to what was said right before my post.