When a "mount" "dies", it disappears so unless you are keeping it alive while you lop off meat, you can't really use it for food.
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Well, from what I've read in other threads the whole dropping a summoned creature on someone doesn't work.
As far as the meat for dinner, I'd probably say the summoned creature disappears after dying.
The zombies, well that's up to the DM. One could argue the zombies would keep chasing what's running away. Sort of like a dog chasing someone out of instinct just because they're running.
Bartering in town would surely piss off the stable owner, possibly leading to the law being called in to collect the swindler.
The other ones seem legitimate.
Not sure about the mage hand question.
I applaud creative uses, but its always up to the DM to say if it makes sense and is still within the rules. Recently I attempted to use Create Pit at the bottom of a river to help a cart stuck in the river cross the rest of the way. The DM allowed it and it felt good. Of course, everything in relative moderation.
First example- Mage Hand being used to levitate 5 lb objects in combat and drop them on enemies head . At this point I've ruled it an improvised ranged touch attack, and tried to assign damage based on the object, not sure if that feels right or if it shouldn't be allowed altogether. Thoughts?
I'd suggest that it isn't a ranged touch but simply a ranged attack. You can't really throw anything with mage hand as I understand it and it has a range of 'short' so you can't get much height, I doubt it would do much damage.
Second example- lvl 1 Mount spell being used for absolutely anything.Need a distraction? summon a mount to run past an enemy
Like it!
Need to barter in a town? summon a mount to trade in at a stable for gold
Sure I guess. They'd better be far away when the spell expires. They can't ever go back to that town. Once word gets around that people are doing that stables will start checking. Word is likely to get around fast.
Need food? Summon a mount and fry up horsemeat
As mentioned above, no. Even if you could manage it, the meat would disappear from their gut when the spell expires. As a GM I'd probably allow it just so I could roleplay that moment :-)
Need Bait against a zombie horde? Summon a mount in their path
Like it!
Need cover from goblin archers? Summon a mount and hide behind it
Like it!
Need to block a creature chasing you down a hallway? Summon a mount as you are running away and watch the big creature trip and fall.
The mount is a living creature and will probably do it's best to get out of the way.
Need to take out the boss in the dungeon? summon a mount 10 ft over his head and drop it on him. Unless he's looking up he can't see it so he's unaware, flatfooted and gets wrecked by a 600 lb horse anvil dropped on his head like in the roadrunner.
Give your boss some levels in spellcraft and he'll know what spell is being cast. That would turn it into a ranged attack against an opponent that's no longer denied it's dex bonus.
I like it when players come up with innovative uses for spells or equipment. You just have to be careful to allow the innovation to add color to the game without breaking it.
First example- Mage Hand being used to levitate 5 lb objects in combat and drop them on enemies head . At this point I've ruled it an improvised ranged touch attack, and tried to assign damage based on the object, not sure if that feels right or if it shouldn't be allowed altogether. Thoughts?
From what understand, spells cannot be used to duplicate the effects of higher level spells, and their power should be kept commensurate with spells of their level. So, given mage hand's utility, it should probably be less effective than an acid dart. Having said that, if it can be used to pull out a pin that is part of a mechanism that you as GM have devised to drop a tonne of rocks, that would work...
Second example- lvl 1 Mount spell being used for absolutely anything.
Need a distraction? summon a mount to run past an enemy
Yep.
Need to barter in a town? summon a mount to trade in at a stable for gold
This will have obviously negative social and legal consequences that you should enforce. You could always rule that summoned creatures are somehow distinctly different in appearance to actual creatures, rendering this ploy ineffective.
Need food? Summon a mount and fry up horsemeat
Nope. As noted upthread, summoned creatures disappear when dead, so even if you managed to eat it, those molecules would disappear soon enough, taking their sustaining benefits with them.
Need Bait against a zombie horde? Summon a mount in their path
Possible, but surely not guaranteed to work.
Need cover from goblin archers? Summon a mount and hide behind it
Yep. Although you could always make it run away from the source of pain/damage.
Need to block a creature chasing you down a hallway? Summon a mount as you are running away and watch the big creature trip and fall.
Yep.
Need to take out the boss in the dungeon? summon a mount 10 ft over his head and drop it on him. Unless he's looking up he can't see it so he's unaware, flatfooted and gets wrecked by a 600 lb horse anvil dropped on his head like in the roadrunner.
Nope. Summoned creatures must appear on a surface that can support them, no doubt to avoid this very thing.
Creativity is fine, so long as it adheres to the rules, which some of your examples don't. Also, I always take the approach that spells work in a tried and true way when used as described in the rules. If characters want to try to get creative, they can, but you can interpret any unorthodox uses as you like. Also, don't tell them if their creative use will come off as intended or not - make it a bit risky to use a spell unconventionally. And as noted with the selling of a summoned mount, enforce social and legal repercussions as you see fit (also, I assume from that example that there are no lawful characters in your party?).
Good luck!
I'm not sure if I should just allow the creative play or if it's gamebreaking and it should be disallowed. I never just want to scream "No. Banned" I always try to look at things logically and decide how logically it would workCool, I feel the same way.
but I think it's getting out of hand.
Uh-oh.
First example- Mage Hand being used to levitate 5 lb objects in combat and drop them on enemies head . At this point I've ruled it an improvised ranged touch attack, and tried to assign damage based on the object, not sure if that feels right or if it shouldn't be allowed altogether. Thoughts?
I have no problem with this. The mage would do more damage firing a crossbow.
Need a distraction? summon a mount to run past an enemy
"You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well." I would rule the horse would not run past an enemy. Horses are not brave to begin with, and this is not a light warhorse. It would wait patiently to be mounted. So for this to work someone would have to be riding the horse.
Need to barter in a town? summon a mount to trade in at a stable for gold
A light horse costs 75g. I would allow this to work a few times. After that, word will have gotten around. Descriptions will have been posted. Authorities will have been notified. Not only will it be unsafe for them to barter for horses ever again, but every other merchant will have heard of the magical swindlers. They'll be saddled with -10% on any items they try and sell (including magical items, after all the enchantments might go away a few days later!) for some time.
Once they'd gotten the message I might allow the "hubub" to die down some. Maybe. Or not.
Need food? Summon a mount and fry up horsemeat
As already mentioned, they'd basically have to torture the creature by cutting off meat while it was alive.
Now, there are two schools of thought regarding whether or not you summon the same creature(s) each time you cast a summoning spell. Were my players to do this, though, I'd assign odds they do summon the same horse they killed and slaughtered, next time they cast the spell. It would start low, maybe 5-10%, and rise each time they tortured and consumed a summoned mount. Should they happen to summon a horse they'd eaten previously, it would panic and be intractable unless met with a high Handle Animal check.
I would also not have this consumption do anything to stave off starvation, but I wouldn't tell the players that. To their characters, they've eaten a fair bit of meat. But since the summoned flesh would eventually vanish...no real nutritional value. Basically they'd be fooling themselves into starving.
Need Bait against a zombie horde? Summon a mount in their path
This works for me as a creative use of the spell. It would delay the zombies for 1d4 rounds, at which point their attempts to consume it would kill the mount and it would vanish, then the zombies would resume the chase. Note that Mount takes 1 round to cast, meaning that the wizard can only move 5 ft. in the round he casts it. Hope the zombie horde isn't too close. I wonder if his friends will be waiting for him while he casts...
Need cover from goblin archers? Summon a mount and hide behind it
I'm okay with this. Any arrows blocked by cover would do damage to the mount, eventually killing it.
Need to block a creature chasing you down a hallway? Summon a mount as you are running away and watch the big creature trip and fall.
I wouldn't treat this as automatic. I'd give the big creature a Perception roll, and maybe a reflex save with a low dc, to avoid tripping over the mount. If it fails these, sure. Note, again, that Mount has a 1 round casting time, so that's one round in which the wizard is only able to run away 5 feet himself.
Need to take out the boss in the dungeon? summon a mount 10 ft over his head and drop it on him. Unless he's looking up he can't see it so he's unaware, flatfooted and gets wrecked by a 600 lb horse anvil dropped on his head like in the roadrunner.
Just like the whale summoning trick of old, I'd rule that you cannot summon a Mount into a space that cannot support it. So no, you cannot summon it into midair and have it fall on someone. Best to nip this in the bud now, or you will see the whale summoning at higher levels.
I like creative spell use. However, I do not like or permit attempts to "game" a spell to do more than it says it does. Spells do what they say they can. If you can use this in a non-obvious way to your advantage, great. If you are just trying to cheese a spell into doing something it cannot, no.
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I think not breaking the rules is a good place to start.
You can't Summon things into mid-air (although if they can Fly that seems plausible to count as 'supported'):
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
As mentioned, summoned creatures disappear when killed, which interferes with the horse meat barbeque.
The blocking/cover usages seem totally legit, except I don't see how that results in Tripping anybody, Trip requires a CMB check which is the attacker's own decision, and I don't see much reason for any opponent to spend their turn Tripping the summoned Mount (although that could be a choice of theirs if they decide that it's better to Trip the Mount and impede their opponents' actions, i.e. the PCs, rather than spend their turn Over-Running/Acrobaticizing to Move thru the Mount's square).
Trying to get the Mount to do other things (like run past NPCs without you on it) would require using Handle Animal and Push, as it only serves you as a mount, anything else it wouldn't be trained for. I'm not sure if there's some rule for it somewhere, but there's nothing in the basic Handle Animal skill preventing other characters from using Handle Animal on the Mount either.
Also remember that Mount is a 1-round casting time spell, so all enemies get a full turn to disrupt you.
I'm not sure how many people are in the market to buy untrained horses, but you have to realize that if you can do that, ANY arcane caster can do that, and Mount is 1st level spell, so besides your own personal reputation getting around when you pull this trick, ANY low-level arcane caster or at least Wizard (since low-level Sorcs would likely not have Mount as their 2 spells known) will be perceived as untrustworthy due to the ease and thus commonality of this 'trick', and that sentiment would apply to such casters even before they try any such trick... but ESPECIALLY if such a low-level Wizard is trying to sell a horse ...So the existence of that trick may must mean your Wizard has a very hard time selling a REAL horse, as well as Mount Spell Horses. :-)
With Mage Hand, you can't throw objects as weapons (the spell only allows you to "move" them), but it's plausible to drop an object on a creature... However, Mage Hand doesn't let you use your own BAB, so it would be with NO attack bonuses, just a straight d20 roll (with range penalties using range increment 20' if dropping it 20' or more).
Further, Mage Hand's 5 lb limit applies...
Look at the Falling Object rules in Environment Chapter. An object needs to be Small Size Category to do any falling damage.
Object Size Categories aren't well explained directly AFAIK*, but look at the examples in Animated Object:
A "Chair" is a Small Object, but seems heavier than 5 lbs.
A "Candelabra" might be 5lbs more or less, but as Tiny Object it wouldn't do any Falling Damage.
(it would do Improvised Weapon damage if thrown rather than dropped, but Mage Hand can't do that)
If you try to use a Small Object of especially light material, then it does half damage (1d6).
And "In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage."
Given Mage Hands 15' movement per Move Action limitation, you will be lucky to get it directly above them (only falling 5').
Further, "If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object."
So, 1d6 halved, and DC 15 to halve it again, for maximum 1 point of damage with 2 chances to negate damage completely.
(1/2 hp dmg does not round up, I believe there is rule stating 1 dmg minimum for attacks, but this is not an attack)
So better than aiming for direct damage, is dropping things like molotov cocktails (although lighting one is a separate action) or acid flasks, etc. (although to break open there would need to be falling damage sufficient to break the object, which may not occur, as per above) The more reliable usage is dropping already open containers of caltrops on a square... which if you want to spend your entire turn pulling off, I think most people would call you ineffective in combat (not that can't be your best option in some cases, but that would usually be in comparison to doing nothing).
* The closest it comes besides the examples of Animated Object is describing the difference between weapon size rating and object size:
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Thing with creativity is sometimes its great. Othertimes it goes out past any concievable expected use of the spell.
Funny thing is a lot of the described uses would work better as a normal summon monster spell.
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Standard summoning rules. You have to summon objects on a surface capable of supporting them. Sorry, no summoning a horse above the BBEG.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Emphasis Mine.
Any action you wish the summoned mount to take will require the appropriate skill. Ride if used as a mount, Handle Animal for anything else. The summoned mount has no tricks other than acting as a mount, so the actions will be untrained.
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Block off a tunnel with Communal Mount. Id like to see anything get through 6 horses quickly.
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Mage Hand: I would say this isn’t an attack spell so the rock won’t do any damage, but if you are inclined to allow it I still see some issues. First of all I don’t see this as a touch attack, as armor would certainly impact the effectiveness of this tactic. Also it would be difficult to aim, so I would give it a non-proficiency penalty of -4. Then I would treat it as a thrown weapon, thrown with an effective str score of 0 which gives it a -5 mod to damage. So at most you would only get 1 point of dmg out of it.
Mount: The spell description doesn’t say anything about the mount being trained for anything. So I would assume it is only good for riding without a handle animal check to push it. You may be able to sell it but you would end up with some pissed off horse traders after you. This would be a good way to become outlaws. A spell craft check could reveal the horse as a magical summon, as would detect magic. I think once a summoned creature is killed it goes *poof*. If you are inclined to have it stay until the spell duration then it would work against a zombie horde but not as food. The food would disappear from your system, and all the nutrients. You could starve to death and never be hungry. Also summoned creatures are real creatures from another plane. A lot of this seems to be torture so could be evil acts. I know you cannot summon a creature into an environment that will not support it, so no whales or horses in mid air.
Strangely, I've never played the mounted spell as it was...well...spelled out in the book, apparently. I guess reading the specific spells would help.
Anyway, I always thought the spell summoned up a ghostly kinda horse, one without substance or really form, in truth a slightly luminous mist in the shape of a horse. The reins and saddle felt real enough once the caster or designated rider grabbed them, but for everyone else it was a rather creepy looking way to travel cross-country. The whole point of the spell is so the caster can travel faster over the hills and through the woods, without using his own feet.
As for the imagination part...I really like the player's creativeness. Some of them are just silly (dropping a mount on some one? Didn't that get addressed a couple of editions ago?), and I've always ran summoned creatures as disappearing into vapor when slain (the horrors of making sandwiches while the main course is still alive not withstanding).
How do you run it? Are these true creatures, merely temporarily teleported from another location/plane? Are they creations of ether, made really only by the caster's will? Are they souls of the departed serving out their karma in another form ("Bob! Another cleric is casting summon nature's ally! Only another ten years as a celestial riding dog and your past sins are forgiven!")?
Or does each summoner have a pool of unique creatures he calls forth, as summons them repetitively. You could write down a brief description (sentence or two) of the commonly summoned animal, and give it a personality. And make the creature looked absolutely annoyed about being used as cover again. Maybe that will strike a cord in the player, as the summoned mount is no longer a soulless extension of his will, but a real creature.
Or you could describe a sort of connection being the caster and the summoned creature. Nothing that effects the rules, but the caster might feel when his summons are in pain, scared, or angry.
As a matter of fact, with any of my suggestions, I would recommend not making anything changes on crunch, and stick only to fluff. No matter how often the creature is used as cover, it will always preform as the spell describes. If the caster can feel the steak knife cut into the summoned horse, explain it as such, along with the screams of the horse, as it stands there without flinching, obedient until destruction. The player can't argue that you've changed the rules, and it points out how creepy what he is trying to do is.
DESCRIPTION
You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle.
Unless it has a template on it, I can't imagine the light horse looking any different from a normal one.
To the guy above me, you're thinkin Phantom Steed.
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When I played my first ever wizard in my first ever game of D&D, I ran out of spells per day against the bad guy, so, frantically looking for a something I could do, I saw mage hand on my list.
Was there a chandelier in the room, I asked my GM? No. Is he wearing a crown? Yes. Okay, here's what I want to do. Using mage hand, lift the crown off his head, turn it upside down, and stab him with the spiky end of the crown for 5lb of force!
The whole table thought it was hilarious, and though mage hand isn't meant to be used like that (especially like that, in fact), he allowed it.
I rolled a 3, so nothing came of it, and I don't know what he would've done if it worked; presumably 1d3 or 1d4 damage vs regular AC, maybe with the improvised weapon penalty.
If you keep the same summoned creatures every time the spell would suck. Summon an eagle, it gets killed by the bad guy, and then what? Next time you summon a dead eagle?
If you keep the same summoned creatures every time the spell would suck. Summon an eagle, it gets killed by the bad guy, and then what? Next time you summon a dead eagle?
That isn't how Summoning works.
. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
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Mage Hand: I would say this isn’t an attack spell so the rock won’t do any damage, but if you are inclined to allow it I still see some issues. First of all I don’t see this as a touch attack, as armor would certainly impact the effectiveness of this tactic. Also it would be difficult to aim, so I would give it a non-proficiency penalty of -4. Then I would treat it as a thrown weapon, thrown with an effective str score of 0 which gives it a -5 mod to damage. So at most you would only get 1 point of dmg out of it.
The rules above are taken directly from the falling objects part of the CRB, specifically the dropping an object on someone part. Until I read that I thought the armor should count too, but they've already got written rules for the action, even if it's an unconventional way to do so. Although I am having trouble finding the part where it says only objects size small and larger can do falling damage, and it clearly says tiny or smaller on the damage table.
Summoned creatures do not die, they just go back to where they came from. A called creature will die however.
In 3.5 ( or older) i vaguely remember something about first calling a creature, giving it equiptment then summoning it later with the gear using summon monster. But i have no idea where i read this.but i dont think its defined anywhere really where the creature comes from when summoned unless its obvious like a devil.
First example- Mage Hand being used to levitate 5 lb objects in combat and drop them on enemies head . At this point I've ruled it an improvised ranged touch attack, and tried to assign damage based on the object, not sure if that feels right or if it shouldn't be allowed altogether. Thoughts?
In practice, this is not as big a deal as it sounds. A tiny or smaller falling object deals 1d6 damage, but the CRB states that a GM is fully at liberty to half this number if the object is particularly light or low-density. So he's hitting for 1d3 on a ranged touch attack. That puts this perfectly in line with other cantrips. However, falling objects also allow a DC 15 reflex save for half damage. It gets worse; the damage is halved if the object drops less than 30 feet, and mage hand can only move an object 15 feet per round, so you're looking at a 2-round setup if you want to deal more than 1 point of damage.
Think I'm done? No, it's even worse. Your players are explointing a loophole. This particular loophole is usually applied to flying movement, but the principle of telekinetically moving an object is the same. The idea is that the player wants to move both downwards and laterally, so he uses his move action to move laterally and then "elects" to fall at the end of his turn to get his verticle movement. This loophole effectively allows him to move twice for the cost of a single move action, and should not be allowed. The correct way to adjudicate this is that he has successfully moved for his turn and will begin falling on his next turn if he does not continue flying.
Your mage hand example works the same way; he has moved the rock successfully on his turn and there is no time for it to fall at the end of his turn. It will complete its fall on the following turn, at which point (presuming the target is still in position - a mere 5-foot step will dodge it) you can make the ranged touch attack.
So taken together he needs to spend a standard action to cast, a move action to move it into place, then on his next turn he gets to make a ranged touch attack for one half of 1d3 damage, reflex for a further half. Uh... yeah, I'll stick to ray of frost, thanks.
I think the others have answered the mount question nicely. It's a great spell; very powerful, but not unreasonably so. My only complaint is that it's part of a general trend of conjuration having all the best spells at low levels. However I will comment on this in particular:
Need to barter in a town? summon a mount to trade in at a stable for gold
Making a quick buck off of a clueless NPC? A rogue can do that as many times per day as he likes. Leave this sort of behavior to the party members who are experts in crime. For the party wizard (with his pathetic non-list of class skills) it's not worth the hassle of becoming a wanted criminal.
This is the Falling Object damage table copied from PRD:
No damage listed for <Small objects.
I do amend my post: Even though dropping an item is a free action, since it is an attack roll, it is an attack, so the minimum 1 point damage rule does apply... Albeit that rule only affects what damage the 'weapon' deals, any abilities of the target to reduce damage still apply, e.g. the DC15 Reflex check (as long as they can see the object), which reduces it by half, and thus 0 hp if the object was only inflicting 1 point of damage.
The only valid falling object damage (not including damage from the payload if it hits & breaks, e.g. an acid flask) using Mage Hand would be some un-specified Small yet of lightweight object (<=5 lbs), let's say a lighter than average wooden chair* (since wood is given as an example of a lighter material vs. stone). That deals half of 1d6 if it's falling less than 30', meaning there is a 50% chance it will only deal 1 point of damage before the target's Reflex Save to halve that damage (negating 1 point of damage completely). If you roll high on damage, and they fail the Save, it could deal up to 3 points (or up to 6 if it falls more than 30', or 12 if it falls more than 150', although note that for each 20' range increment there is a -2 attack penalty).
As I stated, you yourself are not dropping the item, the spell is under your command, and the spell does not have text allowing it to use your BAB, so it will just be using BAB +0 with no ability mods. Although to be fair, Higher Ground attack bonus (+1) should certainly apply!
* I found this chair, which weighs 14 lbs despite having a suspended canvas seat: http://www.hayneedle.com/sale/backpackchair.cfm
This chair supposedly weighs only 6 lbs, so 5 lbs. seems within the realm of possibility: http://www.accelrentals.com/price-list/chairs/white-wooden-chairs/index.htm l
Although then the question comes up, unless it's an object you're very familiar with, or at least have picked up, how much does that incidental wooden chair really weigh? If you guess wrong, the Mage Hand can't move that item, and you wasted your Move Action to direct it.
Need cover from goblin archers? Summon a mount and hide behind it
My 2 cp for this one: do you expect a horse that was not trained for combat to stand still while the goblins are hurting it?
In my game the horse would spook, taking a handle animal check for pushing to restrain it. If failed the horse would probably try to run off away from the hurting side. Now wasn't that the direction some would-be heroes where hiding?
This is the Falling Object damage table copied from PRD:
No damage listed for <Small objects.
Interesting; I'm reading straight out of my CRB, table 13-11, and it is otherwise identical to what you have quoted except for one additional entry: "tiny or smaller 1d6"
Well... that's kind of crazy :-)
Although I did think it strange that the table started at 2d6.
Perhaps something to bring to the attention of the PRD maintainers.
Anyhow, the above figures for a 'lightweight material' Small object should be roughly the same as for a non 'lightweight material' Tiny object. If you use a 'lightweight material' Tiny object the damage would be further halved, but still with the same minimum 1 before the target's Reflex Save or other damage-mitigation. Any advantage would lie in such Tiny objects being easier to find and carry than 'lightweight material' Small objects, the 'lightweight' Small objects actually have some advantage in damage that I simplified above (half of 2d6 is not exactly identical to 1d6).
Not sure if this belongs in advice or rules questions. I've been dm'ing a long time and never run into this before. A group of players of mine have recently been using spells unintended for what the book meant them for.
I'm not sure if I should just allow the creative play or if it's gamebreaking and it should be disallowed. I never just want to scream "No. Banned" I always try to look at things logically and decide how logically it would work, but I think it's getting out of hand.
First example- Mage Hand being used to levitate 5 lb objects in combat and drop them on enemies head . At this point I've ruled it an improvised ranged touch attack, and tried to assign damage based on the object, not sure if that feels right or if it shouldn't be allowed altogether. Thoughts?
Should be against their normal AC, there is nothing special about the object to warrant it bypassing armor.
Second example- lvl 1 Mount spell being used for absolutely anything.
Need a distraction? summon a mount to run past an enemy
Need to barter in a town? summon a mount to trade in at a stable for gold
Need food? Summon a mount and fry up horsemeat
Need Bait against a zombie horde? Summon a mount in their path
Need cover from goblin archers? Summon a mount and hide behind it
Need to block a creature chasing you down a hallway? Summon a mount as you are running away and watch the big creature trip and fall.
Need to take out the boss in the dungeon? summon a mount 10 ft over his head and drop it on him. Unless he's looking up he can't see it so he's unaware, flatfooted and gets wrecked by a 600 lb horse anvil dropped on his head like in the roadrunner.
It's getting ridiculous? what should I do?
I would rule that the mount will do its best to stand next to the caster waiting to be mounted. It won't run past the enemy, or stay behind to be sold, or be eaten, if it is not being ridden it will bolt at the first attack (successful or not) although a full round handle animal check would keep it restrained in place, it will follow the caster trying to get him mount (possibly causing him movement problems), and it can't be summoned in mid air.
Vod, the Falling Object rules flat out state that it is a Ranged Touch Attack.
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.
If you were using a normal action to attack with a thrown weapon it would not be Ranged Touch,
but you are unable to do so via Mage Hand, it doesn't allow taking any actual actions,only "moving" and (by free dismissal of concentration) dropping the item is allowed.
As stated, that isn't your own action or attack (it wouldn't break Invisibility), and doesn't use your own BAB or any Feats,
it's just an attack roll being made because that's what the Falling Object rules call for.
The Mage Hand isn't even a 'creature' at all, and you can't even state that the Mage Hand itself is making the attack roll,
but the rules clearly call for a Ranged Touch Attack roll, so one should be made even if no bonuses apply to it.
(actually, Higher Ground attack bonus SHOULDN'T apply, since that depends on the attacker being on higher ground, in this case there is no attacker)
The surprising thing about the original post is how commonplace these examples actually are. Many, if not most, have been explicitly addressed with rulings from both Paizo and, in many cases, D&D designers in previous versions. Others would have an impact on my impression of the characters' individual alignments.
Most of these involve abusing mounts. Sure, it's all good fun to terrorize and abuse an animal that trusts you.
Personally, I reward outside of the box thinking for spells and skills that my players come up with. I really enjoy playing with people who have actual imagination. Spells are not ONLY meant to be used "as is" vanilla basic stuff.
Of course there are some things that people may be a bit too creative with and that's when you need to decide on when to put your GM foot down like summoning a mount to eat it, it would disappear upon death so there'd be nothing to eat. That's when they need to use the mundane create food and water spell instead. The other things, like using for a distraction or to hide behind until its dead are pretty cool actually.
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Ub3r n3rd, sure I reward imagination too. I just don't consider "I summon a horse and drop it on his head" to be very imaginative. Maybe in 1977, but not 35 years after the first time a GM had to say "wait a minute..."
I suppose what qualifies as being "imaginative" varies from table to table. The vast majority of the things listed here, imho, for my games, are more "cliche" than "imaginative."
YMMV.
I'd rule and reward quite a few innovative and interesting ideas people come up with spells. My girlfriend came up with a fantastic one recently. The group was starting to run low on funds (had to re-adjust the party wealth, and they rolled a little too unlucky), so she takes her 8th level druid and... Has the party bard sell her as a wild-shaped horse to a ranch, after which she wild shapes into a bear in the middle of the night and tears the ranch fence apart. The 'horse' the party sold the rancher apparently 'ran off during the bear attack'.
Of course, I expect the basic rules and common sense to be followed. Summoning a non-flying creature in the air's a no-go. Trying to use a summoned creature for food or components is a no go, though that might be because I've set the rule that for everything beyond items, anything that came with a summoned creature goes poof when the creature does.
Mage Hand dropping things is no different to me than a levitated character droping something. You won't get much damage out of MH though, given it's range.
Block off a tunnel with Communal Mount. Id like to see anything get through 6 horses quickly.
I'd applaud the person who'd do this if I were the DM.
Really, I see no reason to punish "out of the box" thinking.
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I thought I remember reading somewhere that summoned monsters(or a mount) cannot appear in a location that is unsafe?
Dropping a mount on someone should be clearly a unsafe location.
Over-exaggeration of a spell's power is a common abuse by players. And if the GM don't nip it at the bud, it grows into a big problem.
Players often think "Well.... if the GM did not object to it the first time, then there is no reason for him to not allow it a 2nd time..."
Make the players eat their own medicine. Be the genie that "misinterpret" all their "wishes".
Most of those are fine by me. The food thing doesn't work.
Just wait until your players discover the grease spell.
Hi guys! Most of your saying full round action for spells like mount, which is correct!
I tis important to note, tha tyou can split up full round actions into two standard actions, so if the wizard wanted, he could still take move actions.
This means he is running away more slowly, but it is quite a bit faster than taking a five foot step!
Not "one full round" which you can split up as you mentioned. "1 round" which is the equivalent of a full attack action for a melee character, and cannot be split up. i.e. you can only take a 5' step in any round you cast a "1 round" spell.
. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
I'm not sure what is meant by this quote. It almost makes me think if you summoned a crocodile, for example, that you wouldn't be able to summon a crocodile again for another 24 hrs. Help me out here.
I'd rule and reward quite a few innovative and interesting ideas people come up with spells. My girlfriend came up with a fantastic one recently. The group was starting to run low on funds (had to re-adjust the party wealth, and they rolled a little too unlucky), so she takes her 8th level druid and... Has the party bard sell her as a wild-shaped horse to a ranch, after which she wild shapes into a bear in the middle of the night and tears the ranch fence apart. The 'horse' the party sold the rancher apparently 'ran off during the bear attack'.
Of course, I expect the basic rules and common sense to be followed. Summoning a non-flying creature in the air's a no-go. Trying to use a summoned creature for food or components is a no go, though that might be because I've set the rule that for everything beyond items, anything that came with a summoned creature goes poof when the creature does.
Mage Hand dropping things is no different to me than a levitated character droping something. You won't get much damage out of MH though, given it's range.
So your girlfriend and the rest of the party are evil?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm not sure what is meant by this quote. It almost makes me think if you summoned a crocodile, for example, that you wouldn't be able to summon a crocodile again for another 24 hrs. Help me out here.
. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
I don't think it really does anything except in a few corner situations. For example, if you summon an intelligent creature (an imp named "Larry"), he overhears a conversation while invisible, and then rocks fall and kill him. You can't immediately re-summon Larry to find out what he heard. You can summon his brother Daryl (or his other brother Daryl, for that matter), but Daryl won't know what Larry overheard (nor will his other brother Daryl). The first imp you summoned is a unique snowflake and he can't come back and play for 24 hours.
So your girlfriend and the rest of the party are evil?I'd rule and reward quite a few innovative and interesting ideas people come up with spells. My girlfriend came up with a fantastic one recently. The group was starting to run low on funds (had to re-adjust the party wealth, and they rolled a little too unlucky), so she takes her 8th level druid and... Has the party bard sell her as a wild-shaped horse to a ranch, after which she wild shapes into a bear in the middle of the night and tears the ranch fence apart. The 'horse' the party sold the rancher apparently 'ran off during the bear attack'.
Of course, I expect the basic rules and common sense to be followed. Summoning a non-flying creature in the air's a no-go. Trying to use a summoned creature for food or components is a no go, though that might be because I've set the rule that for everything beyond items, anything that came with a summoned creature goes poof when the creature does.
Mage Hand dropping things is no different to me than a levitated character droping something. You won't get much damage out of MH though, given it's range.
Two CN, one N, one NG, and two CG. Since the druid didn't actively kill the horses (though she did scare the piss out of them), it was more chaotic in my book than evil. Party needed money, so they found the richest ranch they could, and sold a horse that was later lost in a bear attack... I'm only going to allow this maybe a few more times before people start catching on that wherever these people go and sell a horse, there's always some wild animal attack later, so they're bad juju.