Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hello,

I have a player in my group is started out as Chaotic Neutral. However, their actions in game look to me as more Chaotic Evil. I mentioned this to them and we got into a bit of an argument over it. I was wondering if I could get some input from the pathfinder community. Perhaps I am just being single minded.

1. The character often is driven by anger in their actions. They met a villain from their past. After slaying the villain they jumped on their chest and started stabbing the dead body repeatedly.

2. After killing the end book boss they went up and ripped the hands off the dead witch and rubbed the blood on their face and kept the hands. To use to make a magic item later.

3. Then they took the body to a location that could be seen and used a ice spear to impale the body as a warning to other witches. That they shouldn't do bad things.

The rest of the party stood and watched not sure what to do as the character ripped the hands off.

When I talked to them about it they told me that it was a lawful ritual to rip the hands off and do the blood. As well as stabbing the other witch multiple times after they were already dead. That it was just an Eye for and Eye and being angry does not make you evil.

I agree that being angry does not, but doesn't acting on said anger?

Thank you for your help.


I would not say that is quite evil yet.

From the PRD here is a bit on evil.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master

The actions are definately chaotic and definately not good. Mutilating the bodies of people that once posed a threat to you is not quite evil. Now if he is doing this to people that just happen to get in his way. Yeah that is evil, but a CN person appreciates their freedom above all. IF someone threatens that freedom then they would not hold back and displaying their success to prevent future issues is definately in that alignment.

How does this person treat other people around him?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, they found out that their brother had a half sister in game. When they first met they went up and screamed in her face and threatened to slap her unless she gave them information. The NPC had shown no threatening qualities and was the NPC they were sent to rescue. She was being held by a dragon.


If you have to ask...

That should tell you quite a bit.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Cheapy, What do you mean?


Lets look briefly at these alignments to help.

CN = unpredictable, not tied to convention nor good nor evil. At you best you are a unique free spirit, at you worst you are insane and unable to act logically.

CE = revels in destruction for its own sake, believe might makes right, enjoy inflicting pain because you can.

The actions you use as examples are difficult ones. Intention is everything here. Did the character kill the witch and deface the body because he enjoyed it or because this was a longtime enemy and the character was overcome with emotion? The first is CE the second CN.

If he really did impale the body as a waning or to protect the locals from other witches that could even be good. If he did it for the thrill of it or to show his power it is CE.

Start asking this player why his character is doing things. That should give you better insight into his real alighnment.


I would say he is treading the line. Especially if he is alternating bad acts with good ones. After all he is Chaotic Neutral.

That screams... I kick puppies and then find them a good home.


That took me a while. The new info re slapping etc sure is looking more CE.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

CE in my opinion with the information given.


CN, but barely. What his action, many more like this and yeah CE and most likely insane too!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mike- It is both, the first was probably a bit of emotion and a hate of witches. The second was to show power and leave a sign as in don't mess with me type of thing.


CN barely. IMO, CN should be a moral gray area, not a little bit of both good and bad.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thank you for all your responses. I don't want to argue with them about this. I like the group and I don't want it to fall apart. How would you go about dealing with something like this?

From what I understand a few of the other members of the group are not sure how to take it.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I Hate Nickelback wrote:
CN barely. IMO, CN should be a moral gray area, not a little bit of both good and bad.

Wouldn't acting on anger be more Chaotic Evil though. I understand that Chaotic Neutral is do whatever type of thing. But feeding the hate and anger inside you?

I guess I can see it from both sides a bit. Perhaps they are right on the line of both CN and CE.

I don't want to force someone to change their alignment but I can see this progressing worse. I really wanted to give them a heads up that this is the direction their player was going. I know it will make some other party members uncomfortable if it gets worse. They disagree that their actions are leading to that sort of thing.

They told me that it was a ritual type of thing to Pharasma ripping the hands off and wiping blood on their face.


Pull him aside privastely and chat with him. Let him know his actions confuse the other players.

The player explaining how he feels and why he does what he does will put the characters at ease.


BS with the Pharisma comment!


soaponarope wrote:
I Hate Nickelback wrote:
CN barely. IMO, CN should be a moral gray area, not a little bit of both good and bad.

Wouldn't acting on anger be more Chaotic Evil though. I understand that Chaotic Neutral is do whatever type of thing. But feeding the hate and anger inside you?

I guess I can see it from both sides a bit. Perhaps they are right on the line of both CN and CE.

I don't want to force someone to change their alignment but I can see this progressing worse. I really wanted to give them a heads up that this is the direction their player was going. I know it will make some other party members uncomfortable if it gets worse. They disagree that their actions are leading to that sort of thing.

They told me that it was a ritual type of thing to Pharasma ripping the hands off and wiping blood on their face.

No, everyone gets angery. Acting on anger is not evil. Getting half the story it is hard to definetly say. From what I read he is a solid CN. He was threatened and took actions. Read the definitions of evil int he PRD.


It looks like we mostly agree that this character is at best on the edge and probably trending towards evil. The question now becomes "so what?". If he is not playing a paladin or cleric mechanically it does not matter.

What does matter is are you the gm and the other players having fun or is this player/character negatively affecting the game. Rule 1 is we play to have fun. As Gm it is you job to keep the fun going. If this is really a "fun" issue then you definitely need to have a polite conversation with the player about toning it down or perhaps presenting things in a different light. Perhaps it is just the difference between ...

"Ha ha I stab the witch repeatedly, cut off her hands and bathe in her blood yeah!!!..

And

"Although distasteful I must ritually deface the witch to prevent her power from reaching us from beyond the grave..."

To make everyone comfortable.

Silver Crusade

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soaponarope wrote:
They told me that it was a ritual type of thing to Pharasma ripping the hands off and wiping blood on their face.

I...don't think they know how to Pharasma.

Given all the information put forth so far, Chaotic Evil seems to be what he wants to play. If he's making you and/or the other players uncomfortable, no amount of alignment shifting is going to help. This is something that needs to be discussed out-of-game.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks everyone for your help and responses I really appreciate it.


Chaotic GetTheHellOutOfMyGameAndGetProfessionalHelp.

I have yet to see a character who engages in things like gratuitous body mutilation who didn't have SERIOUS real-life mental issues.


Eh, sounds chaotic neutral to me, though treading the line as many have stated. If this type of behaviour continued eternally I would still label them chaotic neutral. If they took things just a little further in their actions I would begin labelling them chaotic evil. Of course, what you believe to be chaotic evil is chaotic evil in the game that you run.

However, as Mikaze said, if the PC's actions in game are making you and the other players uncomfortable then it shouldn't be happening and alignment of the PC is really a not the issue in such circumstances. If it makes even one player uncomfortable it shouldn't be happening... unless it's the sort of welcome uncomfortable that people go to scary movies for, I guess.

I would also advise against treating alignment shifts as punishment. I'm not sure if that's how you're treating this, and the advice itself is just personal opinion. I don't think I can properly express why I believe it shouldn't be treated as a punishment which means it's probably just an irrational bias of mine. On further consideration I think it's that if treated like a punishment it seems more like a passive-aggressive way of a DM telling the player that they don't like how the player plays their character rather than addressing any issues openly in an attempt to resolve the problem.

Whatever you decide to do, I'd let the player know if their current actions are leading their character towards evil or make sure they're aware that their character is walking the line. Shocking them with a sudden alignment probably wouldn't work too nicely. Obviously that depends on the nature of the player, but I know that myself and pretty much everyone I play with would appreciate the heads-up if we found ourselves in a similar situation.


CN with point 1 and 3.

(1) In the real world, their are multiple accounts of people engaging in overkill when confronted with a person from the past that had victimized them.

(3) Throughout history, people have been hung, impaled, shackled, caged, etc for use as a public deterrent to further crime.

CE at worst, insane at best with point 2. Name someone from history or literature that wasn't evil or crazy that rubbed other peoples' blood on themselves and kept body parts as souvenirs?

Self Correction - Perhaps native Americans and the whole scalping thing....but that's kind of a stretch here, isn't it?


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In my opinion, the CN character hasn't done anything wrong. Here's how I see each of the three actions you describe:
1. Played with a dead body, in an angry manner.
2. Played with a dead body, in an unsanitary manner.
3. Played with a dead body, in an intimidating manner.
.

Some earth religions teach that it's a sin to play with dead bodies, while others don't. Some people find dissections to be disgusting, while I've assisted in autopsies and just thought it was fascinating. There's nothing evil about any of those actions.

As you said, there's nothing evil about being angry, it's how you act on your feelings that matters. The character in question got extremely angry, and took out his emotions without hurting anyone or even causing any property damage.

So, no evil, none, not a trace.


Chaotic-Anger-Issues


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I'm always on the minority side in this. I agree with Blueluck though, he is CN, and not even getting close to CE at all.

He hasn't acted in an evil fashion at all. What he's done is acted in a fashion that makes people uncomfortable. that's often times what Chaos is. Disrupting the status quo.

He is not harming innocents. He's not causing undue suffering. Torturing somebody while they're still alive is one thing. Destroying an object (corpse) in interesting ways is entirely another.

Liberty's Edge

Zhayne wrote:

Chaotic GetTheHellOutOfMyGameAndGetProfessionalHelp.

I have yet to see a character who engages in things like gratuitous body mutilation who didn't have SERIOUS real-life mental issues.

I have. Though that was in an Evil game. Doing it in a game intended to be a bit lighter is a bit more of a warning sign, I suppose.

On the original question: The actions in the first post all seem well within the realm of CN if paired with more positive behavior in calmer moments (especially towards friends and family). If they're the only kind of things he ever does...maybe he's verging more towards CE.


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Mutiliating bodies is all fine and good in a war! How else are you to get the goblins to think that their god of the underworld is displeased with them? That said, it is tiring work. I had a good character do this once, but that's definitely the most questionable act he ever did (ok, he did it a few times over a span of a week to sell the bluff).

The acts that CN guy did are neutral acts. Not good or evil, at least not in the context given. Putting up bodies as a warning is GRISLY to the extreme, but not evil. Doing it to cow a populace or person into submission would be different (that's oppressing).

Overall though, I'd focus more on how he treats other people rather than how he treats corpses.

As for anger...THIS IS NOT STAR WARS. Anger is a perfectly fine emotion. Righteous Anger can even be good. Acting on Anger is not inherently evil by any stretch.


Intentionally hurting innocent people is what makes you evil.

Silver Crusade

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
The actions in the first post all seem well within the realm of CN if paired with more positive behavior in calmer moments (especially towards friends and family).

Doesn't sound like he's off to a good start there.

Likely need more information though.


Mikaze wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The actions in the first post all seem well within the realm of CN if paired with more positive behavior in calmer moments (especially towards friends and family).

Doesn't sound like he's off to a good start there.

Likely need more information though.

That would fall under Oppressing others, so that's an evil act.

But that's one evil act and some icky neutral ones, so CN still fits. Character might well be a jerk, though.


I'd say he's crazy and has anger issues but isn't evil, so a firm CN.

1) Stabbing a corpse is just that, stabbing a corpse. If that's evil so is skinning a dead bear. It doesn't hurt anyone.
2) Ripping a living person's hands off is obviously evil, from a corpse it's just creepy/crazy.
3) Leaving an impaled corpse as a deterrent is standard dark age military practice.

The most evil thing he did was suppressing his half sister (since if his brother has a half sister he has as well, unless his brother isn't his full brother). Then again, you could also chalk that up to him being a nutter, though that doesn't make it less evil.

I always explained my view on the whole CN vs CE thing according to the difference between Stormcasters of either alignment (a friend of mine had and has problems grasping the difference).

The CN stormcaster just flies around, throwing lightning willy nilly hitting all kinds of stuff. He doesn't intend to hurt people but might and if he notices he might shout "Sorry!" before flying on, assuming he notices at all. He revels in the storm itself.

The CE stormcaster flies around picking targets, hitting where it hurts and causing as many casualties as he can. He revels in the destruction caused by the storm.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The player obviously has played Munchkin and believes that mutilating the body will make him level up.


soaponarope wrote:
jumped on their chest and started stabbing the dead body repeatedly
Pathetic. But not Evil.
Quote:
ripped the hands off the dead witch and rubbed the blood on their face and kept the hands

Disgusting. But not Evil.

Quote:
impale the body as a warning to other witches

Deplorable. But not Evil.


None of those actions sound like they require an evil character. Being a jerk isn't the same as being evil. Even slapping someone isn't evil. You haven't stabbed them, just done some non-lethal damage.

Chaotic Neutral seems a perfect description for them.

Also keep in mind that one can do evil acts and still not have an evil alignment.

Grand Lodge

Tell the players that if you find an action to be evil, you will mark it down.

After a number of these actions have occurred, you will impose an alignment shift.

That is how it should be handled, and with players aware, there will be no surprises.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Tell the players that if you find an action to be evil, you will mark it down.

After a number of these actions have occurred, you will impose an alignment shift.

That is how it should be handled, and with players aware, there will be no surprises.

That is a great idea. Thank you for your advice.

I spoke to the player last night and let them know that I felt they were on the line of going evil. They told me they thought their character may end up CE and understood. For now they are remaining CN. I am pretty sure we came to an understanding.

Thanks again for your advice and help everyone.


soaponarope wrote:

Hello,

I have a player in my group is started out as Chaotic Neutral. However, their actions in game look to me as more Chaotic Evil. I mentioned this to them and we got into a bit of an argument over it. I was wondering if I could get some input from the pathfinder community. Perhaps I am just being single minded.

1. The character often is driven by anger in their actions. They met a villain from their past. After slaying the villain they jumped on their chest and started stabbing the dead body repeatedly.

2. After killing the end book boss they went up and ripped the hands off the dead witch and rubbed the blood on their face and kept the hands. To use to make a magic item later.

3. Then they took the body to a location that could be seen and used a ice spear to impale the body as a warning to other witches. That they shouldn't do bad things.

The rest of the party stood and watched not sure what to do as the character ripped the hands off.

When I talked to them about it they told me that it was a lawful ritual to rip the hands off and do the blood. As well as stabbing the other witch multiple times after they were already dead. That it was just an Eye for and Eye and being angry does not make you evil.

I agree that being angry does not, but doesn't acting on said anger?

Thank you for your help.

Posting warnings to other witches does not sound evil to me. Neither is having an anger management problem.

Killing innocents? Engaging in selfish actions to the detriment of others? I'd start there.


He's definitely Chaotic Neutral in my opinion.
Just because he's acting out of anger towards HATED enemies doesn't necessarily make him evil.
These hated enemies happen to be enemies of the group, so for him more's the better.
As a Chaotic Neutral character, he operates on his own personal code, and doesn't heed much to the customs or laws of others. He's defacing the corpses of his enemies.
Why? Because they're his enemies. But he's also sending a warning to likeminded individuals, that if they do what this person did, they'll suffer the same fate. He's not oppressing others. He's certainly not doing it TO oppress others.
Rather, he's just warning them: Cross me, and this happens. Stay out of my way and you should be fine.
But he's not going out of his way to harm innocent people.

And the slap across the face is just that, a slap across the face. Meant as an insult? Definitely. Does it get the NPC's attention? Hell yeah it does. Does it let that NPC know you're serious? You bet your ass. Did it cause any major permanent harm or damage? No, the bruise will go away, and the ego may be wounded right now, but overall it reminds the NPC that next time this guy asks a question, you better answer it cause we're not screwing around. When we ask a question, there's a damn need for it, so don't daudle and give me crap.

Overall, there's no problem with this guy playing this way and being ChaotiC Neutral.

I honestly don't even think he's really skirting any invisible line for the most part. Now, if he starts doing this stuff to terrify the locals into giving him what he wants, be it gold, money, or daughters (awesome), then yeah, he might be evil.

The Exchange

I, too, feel that the character is being vengeful, impulsive and deliberately trying to gross out his teammates... but a non-evil person can be disrespectful to the dead.

That said, it's extremely stupid to be disrespectful to the dead and even more stupid to cut off body parts and take them with you! Not for alignment reasons, though: it's because you're just begging the GM to use one of the more exotic and obsessive undead types against you.

Scarab Sages

My players have gone up to enemy BBEGs several times and either repeatedly kicked them in the head or hacked them up...sometimes even going so far as to completely burn the body and scattering the ashes across the landscape as they travel. I take this more as a sign that I did well playing this BBEG as a major pain in their butts and either they are venting several game sessions (or more) of frustration, or are making sure they can't be brought back to life by a henchman. Some of this may be what you are seeing, sort of a weird version of a victory dance.

One thing to ask yourself...do you think this is the player doing these actions (ie-his personality) or is it the character. If it is the character, I would give him some leeway to explore and go wherever he is headed with his character development. If the former, then not so much. The warning stuff is totally okay, savage barbarian characters in my games have done similar things. Smearing blood on his body, eating body parts, or making decorations out of recognizable body parts should be found disturbing to any good PCs/NPCs.

I would definitely have any lawful or good party members be disturbed by these scenes. If they report any of this to higher ups or these acts are discovered, other PCs should be warned of this as dangerous behavior.

IMC, you would be getting a visit from a minion of Pharasma, either in dreams or during waking hours warning them not to intentionally desecrate the dead. For some GMs, this may be too heavy handed. Our game also requires consulting with a priest of Pharasma prior to raise dead, resurrection, or speak with dead being cast unless you want your hand slapped.


CN is probably the most misused and abused alignment.


Which makes it the bestest.


I would have that behavior bump them up to Chaotic Good, but that's me.


I haven't read the whole thread here, but from what I did read, I think the issue here is that this paticular set of actions is:

1) Evil for some and not evil for others, depending a lot upon cultural and personal context.

2) Makes other people really uncomfortabel.

If I met a person like this in real life, I wouldn't want to be around this person (the character not the player) because I wouldn't know what he was going to do to me.

So the other PCs might be thinking "If I fall in combat, will he rip of my hands and paint his face with my blood as an offering to Pharasma? What if I get raised? Will anybody remember to put my hands back before casting the spell?

and so on.

As far as the player goes: let him know your concerns and ask him if wants to play CE (and then roleplay that out) or someone who wants to be good but has to fight dark impulses (and then roleplay that out).


I cannot help myself... Another day another alignment thread!

Anyhow in my opinion the PC is CN. They aren't going around killing goodly folk just to sow death and destruction, they are sending a warning to their evil adversaries that if they are threatened the cost of doing so is death and then mutilation. This is well within the CN type of character alignment to me. They are unpredictable, they are sometimes thought of as crazy, and they basically follow their own instincts.

I know some people think this is evil and have said so in this thread, but the problem we run into with these alignment issues is that they vary at each and every table and each and every person has a different opinion. The same can be said for what LG is.

My advice to you is to come up with a solution at YOUR table. You talk with your players and come up with a consensus as to what each alignment represents and type it up as part of your GM handout. Then you go with what everyone has agreed upon and everyone knows what kind of things happen which can move their alignment.

The other thing you might want to look into is the reputation section in the Ultimate Campaign book if you get a chance to buy it. It's got a scale and tables of what different kinds of deeds do to player alignments. Then you look it up, mark it down on your sheet for the player and tell them when they have moved or are getting ready to move into a new alignment based on their actions in the game.


Sit down with the player like adults and talk with him OOC. Explain you are disturbed by this sort of activity and that you like to run a heroic game. Explain that D&D is a game, and the idea of a game is to have Fun, but that the DM needs to have Fun too. Ask him to dial it back. Don’t discuss Evil, that’s very subjective and will lead to arguments. He can’t very well argue with how YOU feel.

Next time, ban CN as well as Evil PC’s.


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ub3r_n3rd wrote:


The other thing you might want to look into is the reputation section in the Ultimate Campaign book if you get a chance to buy it. It's got a scale and tables of what different kinds of deeds do to player alignments. Then you look it up, mark it down on your sheet for the player and tell them when they have moved or are getting ready to move into a new alignment based on their actions in the game.

This is a great idea. Thank you.


Unless the character comes from a society that considers this kind of action normal, I'd be thinking of some kind of mental illness, not necessarily an evil alignment.

Any chance you could post some of the background story of the character, or what his nationality is?


soaponarope wrote:
ub3r_n3rd wrote:


The other thing you might want to look into is the reputation section in the Ultimate Campaign book if you get a chance to buy it. It's got a scale and tables of what different kinds of deeds do to player alignments. Then you look it up, mark it down on your sheet for the player and tell them when they have moved or are getting ready to move into a new alignment based on their actions in the game.
This is a great idea. Thank you.

No problem, glad to help :)

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