Gelmir's page

Organized Play Member. 161 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 4 Organized Play characters.


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My proposal:
Alchemist+barbarian with Fiend Totem.

4 natural attacks. Bite and horns do not take the same "slot"

Also, +8 to strength is pretty awesome

Oh, also: you can do beast morph AND vivisectionist.

Forget bombs. You won't be able to invest in them adequately if going for a melee monster.

Beast morph + vivisectionist is a TON of fun. AND you have a flank buddy with the rogue!

-beast morph archetype: allows pounce for move+full attack at level 10

-note expeditious retreat is super handy in combat

-note that extend potion+2nd level alchemy spell that allows you to reuse potions forever + potion of Heroism allows for infinite Heroism spell.

-consider 2 level barbarian dip to get beast totem: allows horns when raging for 4(!) natural attacks when raging and a +8 strength bonus

-if doing above, Human is super handy

Mattastrophic wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.

I agree with you, Chengar. It's not very difficult to produce characters who blow through published material. The APs are designed for a party of four 15-point characters with very few non-Core options, meaning that adding in all the powercreep which has occurred since will smash things. The Rogue, I'll say, started off behind a bunch of other classes, and hasn't gotten the same powercreep boost that other classes have received.

That being said... Can we make the Rogue work in published content? Absolutely. The Rogue just doesn't turn published content into Easy Mode like several other classes (with their powercreep) do.

So, if you and all of your group enjoy Easy Mode, I can understand avoiding the Rogue. There's plenty of material out there for you and your group to build whatever Smashy McSmashersons you want. But if you or any of your group don't enjoy Easy Mode, the Rogue is a pretty good idea.

-Matt doesn't enjoy Easy Mode.

So, in short, after 2,500+ posts the answer is NO, we CANNOT make the rogue "work" ... There will always be a class that can fill the rogue's role more effectively.

Alchemists and Bards come immediately to mind. Are those classes "shattering content"? I think not. Rogues need to be rewritten. Badly.

The post count alone demonstrates the case.

Unless you really just like saying the word "rogue", Archeologist is VASTLY superior and has almost all of the same features.

Heck, it's outfitted the same, fights in a similar fashion, is sneaky, etc...

Just no sneak attack.

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Calybos1 wrote:

So, I've got a Halfling rogue who worships Chaldira, and I want to focus on luck effects. (Though not as a cleric with the actual Luck domain.)

What rogue talents, feats, items, etc., would support the luck-oriented flavor of such a character? Assume an otherwise standard party makeup for teammates (frontliner, ranged attacker, caster, healer), so this rogue will be doing the standard sneak-attacking and trapfinding job. I'm looking for flavor/RP suggestions, not build advice.

Be an Archeologist (Bard archetype).

Vastly superior to rogue. Only thing you lose is sneak attack. Gain a bunch of stuff including a great luck bonus.

Check the archetype out.

Naruto Uzumaki wrote:

Great, that druid guy told the gm about the thread and he just called me, i got kicked from the group.

Seriously, he better not show up on school tomorrow. Im totally pissed now.


Dude, Naruto, I encourage you to start a blog that chronicles your RPG experiences. I would follow that thing avidly.

This thread is made of pure win. Whether this an epic troll thread or the real deal, it is awesome.

A sincere thanks for sharing. Still laughing.

MDCityNIGHT wrote:
I am looking for a build/class that can act as a ranged glass cannon. Please leave your feedback!

Best glass cannon build I can think of (with heavy inspiration from various threads/builds- see below for links) is an Orc Bloodline Varisian Tattoo Sorceror (1)/Wizard (admixture)(X)

The idea is that the Orc Sorc bloodline dip provides +1 to all arcane damage spells. Varisian Tattoo allows you to make Evocation act as though you were 1 level higher.

Admixture Wizard provides great flexibility not just in all the spells you know, but also with the ability to change your fireball damage to whatever you like, thereby negating much of problem with fireballs (damage resistance)

You can pump out some crazy damage with the right meta magic feats and the above. Combine with dazing spells to rock encounters.

Here are 2 guides you can use for inspiration:

Blockbuster Wizard
Admixture Blaster Build

Note that it has been ruled that you cannot have both Varisian Tattoo AND be crossblooded.

I would like to play something like the above and will likely go Varisian Tattoo with Orcbloodline for the tattoo familiar. The damage difference between that and crossblooded is surprisingly very little.


-Extracts can be "cast" in heavy armor
-All kinds of awesome self buff spells
-All kinds of awesome utility spells allowing your fighter to contribute out of combat
-Huge number of skills
-Potion of Heroism + Alchemical Allocation Extract + Extend Potion discovery = many hours of heroism per day out of the same potion forever (Heroism provides +2 to attack and saves!)
-MUTAGEN! Bonus to strength and AC
-Beastmorph archetype provides Pounce at level 10 Alchemist

I actually have a build for you here:

That build focuses on tripping, but you can apply quite a bit of that thread to your current build, I am sure.

1 edit:

Should have been Magical Talent, not Magical Knack to gain the arcane SLA for Arcane Strike.

My mistake.

Sammy the Bull (Barbarian (Drunken Brute)(2)/Alchemist (Beastmorph)(X))

*please see bottom of post for build progression*

I like alchemists. They are a great utility character. They also can be rather effective in combat (Beastmorph Vivisectionist, may you rest in peace. Signed, PFS).

I decided to try a Hulk-inspired Barbarian/Alchemist build informed by several other threads on this idea from 2012 (kudos to the contributors).

The concept is a Half-Orc Shaman's Apprentice who escapes his cruel life but eventually decides to master the dangerous skills he had begun to learn. Like the Witcher, he combines martial skill with all kinds of ability augmenting potions.

Mechanically, the idea is to add as many strength bonuses and natural attacks as I can find while still being a utility knife for the party.

We start as a Barbarian and take 2 levels both for fluff reasons and because starting with all of those hit points, armor/weapon proficiency and rage abilities is dang handy to include growing horns. We then go straight alchemist the rest of the way.

By level 6 he gets 4 natural attacks along with some rather nasty buffs including: +8 strength, Heroism (for hours and hours), and Arcane Strike (!... hear me out on that one...). Further, Medium Armor Proficiency allows a bump in AC over a standard alchemist.

Additionally, the character has a ton of skill points/class skills and retains access to bombs (which will be weak relative to a bomber... but can cause some neat effects with the right discoveries)and can eventually buff the party through infusing his extracts.

-Go to Barb 2 for Lesser Fiend Totem. Provides horns while raging for a 4th natural attack

-Arcane Strike at level 1! How? By taking Magical Knack as a trait. Arcane strike boosts damage and makes the attacks magical. By level 6, that is +2 to damage!
Please see the following FAQ and thread:

Arance Strike rulings:

-- or-Arcane-Strike
-- bilities-and-how#56

In Short: a spell like ability (even from a trait) COUNTS for gaining Arcane Strike. If you have no caster levels, you treat your Arcane Strike level as your hit dice (same as how monsters do it). This came directly from the developers

-Heroism for hours and hours at level 6. How? Buy a Heroism Potion (Wizard level 5) and use the extract Alchemical Allocation to cast it over and over again without using it up. Couple with the Discovery Extend Potion for 100 minutes per use of Heroism! Neat, right? That is +2 to attacks and saving throws!

-With 17 rounds of rage and 40 minutes of mutagen by level 6, we should be able to ensure most fights have a +8 strength boost going

-With Feral Mutagen at level 3, we get 2 claws and a bite attack. Coupled with the Rage gore attack, we should be pumping out a ton of damage with all of these damage bonuses

-Drunken Brute Barbarian Archetype allows drinking potion as a move action and extension of rage through drinking

-Beastmorph Alchemist Archetype allows POUNCE and even flight... eventually...

At level 10 (ignore Enlarge Person, which he can cast repeatedly on himself for 8 minutes a shot... also ignore bulls strength and haste for now):

level 10 stats:

to hit= +22 from = +8 (BAB) + 8 (str boni) +2 (Belt of strength bonus) + 2 Amulet of mighty fists + 2 (Heroism)

Full attack damage potential= 2d8+2d6+70
1 Bite = 1d8+20 from +15(str)+2(AoMF)+3(Arcane Strike)
1 Gore = 1d8+20 from +15(str)+2(AoMF)+3(Arcane Strike)
2 Claws = 2d6+30 from +10(str)+2(AoMF)+3(Arcane Strike)

(I seem to have misplaced the damage model you fine citizens use to calculate DPR so please excuse me for not properly calculating it... will do so if there is any forum interest in this idea...)

-Delays POUNCE by 2 levels to level 12 vs a straight alchemist or barbarian
-Not the best action economy. Peak power requires a bit of buffing

Questions for you:
1. Do you see any mistakes in my understanding of the rules?
2. How does the below compare to a pure Barbarian or pure Alchemist build in terms of effectiveness?
4. He has 17 rounds of rage. That feels like 2 solid encounters a day... which I think is pretty good. What do you think?
4. What can we do to optimize him further?
5. What is the optimum buffs I can cast in a given combat? I am assuming I should delay no more than 1 round for buffing before proceeding to take the nearest foe to gore town...

Thanks for reading and the help.


Race: Half-Orc
Class: Barbarian (2)/Alchemist (X)

Str: 17 (+7)
Dex: 14 (+5)
Con: 14 (+5)
Int: 14 (+5)
Wis: 12 (+2)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Dark vision (Orc)
Sacred Tattoos (+1 all saving throws... Orc)
Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance... Orc)
Bezerker of the Society (+3 rage/day)
Magical Knack: Prestidigitation

Level 1: Barbarian (1)
-Arcane Strike
Class abilities:
-Rage: 9/day
-Fast movement

Level 2: Barbarian (2)
Class abilities:
-Rage: 11/days
-Uncanny Dodge
-Lesser Fiend Totem (Gore attack)

Level 3: Alchemist (1)
-Extra Rage (+6/day)
Class abilities:
-Mutagen (10 min)
Bombs 1d6+2 (3/day)
-Extracts (2/day @1st)
--Enlarge Person (1)
--Expeditious Retreat (1)
--Illusion of Calm
--Disguise Self

Level 4: Alchemist (2)
-Feral Mutagen
Class Abilities:
-Mutagen (20 min)
-Extracts (3/day @1st)
--Comprehend languages

Level 5: Alchemist (3)
-Power Attack
Class abilities:
-Alter Self with Mutagen (beast morph)

Level 6: Alchemist (4)
-Extend potion
-Alchemical allocation!!!

Level 7: Alchemist (5)
-Extra Discovery: Infusion

Level 8: Alchemist (6)
-Spontaneous Healing
Class abilities:
-Beast shape I with mutagen

Level 9: (Alchemist 7)
-Iron Will
Level 10: (Alchemist 8)
-Combine Extracts

Level 11: (Alchemist 9)

Level 12: (Alchemist 10)
-Confusion Bomb
Class Abilities:
-Beast Shape II with Mutagen (Pounce!)

Quandary wrote:
While you can take Varisian Tattoo Feat for the CL boost, the Tattooed Sorceror Archetype would conflict with Cross-blooded, as they are modifying the same features: Tattooed Sorceror is replacing the 1st bloodline power, while Cross-blooded is modifying that class feature to have a choice of both Bloodlines' powers. Tattooed Sorceror is also replacing the Bloodline Feat while Cross-blooded is modifying that Feature to use both Blood-lines' lists. If you take Tattooed Sorceror, you are missing out on the function of the Cross-blooded Archetype, which is why the rules for mixing Archetypes forbids that, because Archetypes are always to be taken as an entire package yet combining Crossblooded and Tattooed would result in some Crossblooded features being expressed but not others. If an Archetype was just giving you an ADDITIONAL feature or option that didn't affect the function of a base class ability then that can't conflict with other archetypes, but when they change the function of core class abilities, then that can conflict with other archetypes.

Well, as I wrote above, I very much disagree with your ruling. Cross blooded is merely adding more options... It is not forcing you to take x power and then conflicting with Varisian. The point of the archetype rules is to prevent 2 archetypes dictating the same choice for a particular power/feat.

Cross blooded dictates nothing.

So I think mixing the two is on firm ground both RAW and RAI.

But after thinking about everyone's comments, it seems like there are enough players out there who are uncomfortable with this build that it is probabaly more trouble than it is worth to actually bring it to a table. And if it turns out to be a destroyer of worlds, it will exacerbate the problem.

The "Blockbuster" wizard seems plenty effective and no one can question the legality. If I decide to play a blaster type, I'll probably just do that.

soaponarope wrote:


I have a player in my group is started out as Chaotic Neutral. However, their actions in game look to me as more Chaotic Evil. I mentioned this to them and we got into a bit of an argument over it. I was wondering if I could get some input from the pathfinder community. Perhaps I am just being single minded.

1. The character often is driven by anger in their actions. They met a villain from their past. After slaying the villain they jumped on their chest and started stabbing the dead body repeatedly.

2. After killing the end book boss they went up and ripped the hands off the dead witch and rubbed the blood on their face and kept the hands. To use to make a magic item later.

3. Then they took the body to a location that could be seen and used a ice spear to impale the body as a warning to other witches. That they shouldn't do bad things.

The rest of the party stood and watched not sure what to do as the character ripped the hands off.

When I talked to them about it they told me that it was a lawful ritual to rip the hands off and do the blood. As well as stabbing the other witch multiple times after they were already dead. That it was just an Eye for and Eye and being angry does not make you evil.

I agree that being angry does not, but doesn't acting on said anger?

Thank you for your help.

Posting warnings to other witches does not sound evil to me. Neither is having an anger management problem.

Killing innocents? Engaging in selfish actions to the detriment of others? I'd start there.

Peet wrote:
Gelmir wrote:
Yes. But could I not cast a fireball, get the +2 per die and then convert all of the damage o acid since the spell is technically a "fire spell" even though I changed the damage?

This is actually one for the FAQ.

Technically yes, since nowhere in the description of the Elemental Spell feat does it say that spells altered by the feat have their descriptor changed.

However, later versions of this ability that appear in Ultimate Magic (such as the Djinni bloodline arcana, for example) do change the descriptor. I take it from this that under RAI the bonus does not apply to damage if the energy type changes, because that should change the descriptor. But RAW says it does apply if you are using the feat.

However, RAW works the other way too. If you have +2 damage per die for fire spells, and you cast cone of cold, you don't get the +2 per die even if you change the spell to fire with a feat (or rod), as the spell descriptor is still cold.

But the question for the FAQ would be: does the Elemental Spell feat change the energy descriptor of the spell? If so, sorcerer bloodlines that grant a damage bonus to spells with an energy descriptor would have their damage adjusted based on the new descriptor.


Having read up on this issue... It looks like the elemental spell feat does not change the energy descriptor.... So perhaps a cross blooded Sorceror with at feat could, in fact, be as effective as the blockbuster wizard. You would effectively be trading 1 meta magic level for +2 damage per die... Which seems pretty dang awesome to me.

andreww wrote:

Because that damage is dependant on the spell you are casting.

If you have Draconic (Fire) and cast a Fireball you get the bonus.

If you cast a Cone of Cold but turn it into fire damage then you get the bonus.

If you cast Cone of Cold as CoC you cannot turn the +1 from the arcana into cold damage as it is dependant on you using a Fire spell.

Yes. But could I not cast a fireball, get the +2 per die and then convert all of the damage o acid since the spell is technically a "fire spell" even though I changed the damage?

Could someone quickly review with me why Brewer implies the extra fire damage from a cross blooded Sorceror dip cannot be admixtured to a new type?

MrRed wrote:

I am playing a wizard like that right now and am having a blast *pun intended*. Some pointers from my ingame experience:

-lesser metamagic rods are quite cheap and very powerful; the goblin fire drum is great for your familiar if you get some performace (percussion) ranks
-you will do insane damage- to the point where you GM might think about increasing challenge ratings of encounters; this can get quite ennoying for other players! Be generous with buff spells!
-scrolls are awesome for utility spells, in particualr lvl 1 scrolls

There is a recent guide on this forum (blockbuster wizard) which might give you some extra ideas.

HOT! Will check that out... I have googled the poop out of this topic and somehow missed that thread.

Glad this will work!

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
What schools will you give up?

Necromancy and Enchantment for sure.

I have access to plenty of the best spells without those 2...

Morgen wrote:
That is the most common way to get the most out of a blaster type caster actually. Draconic/Orc Blooded is usually one of the only really mechanically optimized reasons to be a Crossblooded Sorcerer.

Concur, sir! And allowing me to change all of those fire spells into acide damage is huge.

What do you think of the rest of the build? Is it a good trade to delay wizard spell progression by 1 level for all of the above?

Well, friend, the bottome line is that it looks like we agree it is legal. I disagree that cross blooded changes the bloodline powers... More options is not a forced change.

It sounds like there is concern that this build does not really follow the rules INTENT... And is, perhaps, a bit "munchkiny", if you will excuse the word.

That is a very fair concern and is worth discussing... However I am convinced that the build is legal according to RAW (as long as I bump Charism to 12).

I am little more interested in discussing the effectiveness of the build vs a standard wizard.

Azten wrote:
I do not believe Crossblooded and Tattooed stack, since both alter/change bloodline powers.

Ah. I think you be wrong, me hearty:

As that dude says, cross blooded just provides more options and does not actually alter any powers.

LazarX wrote:
It's always been my contention that the bloodline bonus only counts for the sorcerer spells.

Ah. Also fair.

However, while your interpretation of the rules is absolutely reasonable, it is not RAW and therefore a bit of a house rule, no?

Seems like under PFS rules I could do this. Am I wrong?

therealthom wrote:
Not enough time for a full critique, but this caught my eye -- how does a 10 Ch sorceror cast 1st level spells?

Ah. Fair. Although it seems rather trivial to address that problem, no?

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I would like to discuss the cross blooded, tattooed, admixture wizard. This is not a new idea: many others have posted the idea of taking a cross blooded Draconic/Orc Sorceror for level 1 and then switching to an Evocation (Admixture) wizard for the next 19 levels, resulting in a wizard who has all of the normal cosmic tools of other wizards coupled with +2 fire spell damage /die with the ability to change the fire damage to any element type.

I'd like to discuss how to optimize him and then how he compares to a standard wizard.

By adding Varisian Tattoo, his evocation spells also are cast at class level +1.
By taking the Magical Knack trait, his wizard spells will all be cast at full hit dice level.
Varisian Tattoo also gives a familiar at level 1 who will progress with his wizard levels. In fact, the tattoo familiar is superior to a regular familiar as it can be kept 100% safe at all times.

So the only draw back to this plan is the delay in wizard spell progression (but NOT spell power) by 1 level.

It seems to me that by delaying wizard spell progression by 1, this character actually gains a great deal of versatility in that he can now lay down very effective blasts.

At level 1 he relies on his longbow (Elf) and casting enlarge person 3 times a day.

At level 2, he is able to cast 7 first level spells per day (admittedly 3 are enlarge person). Note that his Burning Hands spell at level 2 does 3d4 +6 points of damage vs the worthless 2d4 of a standard wizard as the Varisian Tattoo increases caster level by 1 for his evocation spells.

At level 2, 12 points of aoe damage that can be of any elemental type is pretty dang good.

At level 6 he can cast a "fire" ball of any elemental type that deals 7d6 +14 damage or 38 on average vs 6d6 or 21 that a standard wizard would do.

What do you think? Is this more effective than a standard wizard? Am I underestimating the impact of delaying spell progression by 1 level? Also, what feats would you recommend? Is my stat distribution optimal?

Class: Sorceror (1)/Wizard(x)
Race: Elf

20 pt buy

Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 19
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Traits: Magical Knack, Warrior of Old
Initiative: +9
Level 1
Sorceror: Draconic/Orc cross blooded and Varisian Tattooed
Class abilities:
+2/die to all fire damage spells
+1 caster level to evocation spells
Tattoo familiar (+4 initiative)
Spell: enlarge person (3 /day)
Picks up Bluff and UMD as class skills, which is amusing

Level 2
Wizard: Evocation (Admixture) specialization
Class abilities:
Can change any spell damage to a different element
Tattoo familiar advances with wizard levels
Extensive knowledge skills allow evaluation of elemental resistances and weaknesses of opposing creatures

FuelDrop wrote:
Cowjuicer wrote:

There is a better way than merciful item sundering.

1. Be a Drunken Brute barbarian (APG archetype). Every round you drink an alcoholic beverage, you can rage without spending a round of rage.

2. Get the Flask of Infinite Sake (I believe that's the name), an item that can be found in one of the Jade Regent books (I'll go check to see which one).

3. Muzzle yourself with the Flask of Infinite Sake.

4. Drink constantly. (Perhaps combine with a Ring of Sustenance to obviate the need for breathing and eating.)

5. Infinite rounds of rage.

I'm certain that many DMs will rule that you die of accute alcohol poisoning within one week of trying this, so you'll need a perepet of proof against poison or something similar. i suspect that a similar tactic could be used as a drunken master.

Each round is what? Like 6 seconds.

Sake is a relatively weak drink.

How many rounds does a tough encounter last? 15-20 max?

I can drink Sake for 2 minutes no problem and feel just fine... and I am no longer a heavy drinker.

There are many people who are high functioning alcoholics. Also, someone who was a "Drunken Brute" must have a very high alcohol tolerance... they are going to be able to drink much more than the average person.

Heh. Well OBVIOUSLY the character would take many other spells: summon monster, battlefield control, party buffs etc.

It is not as though he would only learn color spray.

That said, it seems like the better plan for this would be just to go straight Heavens Oracle.

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Main problem is you already get spells 1 level late as sorcerer... which means you get your spells at the same time a Wizard gets the next higher level. The additional Level 1 spells you get are considerably weaker than that.

Plus, remember that your curse benefits will be gimped as well; non-oracle levels only count half when determining the curse's effects.

This beind said, don't overestimate color spray. Quite a lot of critters out there are pretty much unaffected by mind-affecting things, and the range and area of that spell leave much to be desired.

As for getting access to a wide variety of usable devices: correct. You have access to a plethora of wands and scrolls by default. You don't even need to 'take the spell as Oracle'. If it's on your list (i.e. any Oracle or Sorcerer spell in the books), you're all set for using a wand of scroll without resorting to UMD.

I don't say it's a very bad idea (Heck, I am currently playing a Sorceress with a one-level-dip into Cleric). It's just probably not as strong as you might think.

Fixed title. Thanks.

Fair points concerning the limitations on color spray etc.

I willthink it over.

My other plan is to just focus on being a Fey sorceror. There are a great many battle winning compulsion spells out there starting with Sleep.

I am curious to get some input on the following idea (inspired by another thread on here)...

I am considering playing a Sorceror with 1 level of Oracle. The idea is to leverage the Awesome Display Mystery from the Heavens Revelation("Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier").

I could really use some advice on this as multi-classing spell casters is generally a very bad idea.


1. Color Spray remains a game winning spell for quite some time, if we take spell focus (Illusion) and pump our Charisma up and use metamagic feats to increase the DC (for example: Heighten Spell). At level 4, you can Color Spray for FULL EFFECT all creatures 7 HD or less! Which is everyone! yay!

2. When Color Spray starts becoming silly to use, we can soon switch over to Prismatic Spray (level 14) for more game winning goodness (will be affecting creatures with 16 HD or less by that point!)

3. The Haunted curse gives us Mage Hand and Ghost sound... 2 very handy spells.

4. We get to add 4 (and eventually 5 or more) 1st level Oracle spells to our daily casts! That is a bunch of spell casting! AND we can just spam Color Spray from our Sorceror spells at low levels.

5. Also, does this mean that we can simply ditch UMD? It certainly means we can use a wand of cure light wounds (if we take the spell as an oracle) without UMD. Is this how UMD works? I can auto use any spell casting device that I already know the spells for?


1. Lose 1 level of Sorceror spells. So we don't get level 9 spells until level 19 and at level 20 we can only cast 4 instead of 6. Which does suck. Also, our Sorceror bonus spells are delayed by a level.

Man, this seems like a good trade to me. What do you guys think?

Jiggy wrote:
Sniggevert wrote:
My bad. They've got so many ways to talk about dervishes now a days I get the names mixed up sometimes.

Yeah, tell me about it. Dervish Dance feat that anyone can take, Dervish Dancer archetype, Dawnflower Dervish archetype of the same base class as the Dervish Dancer...

Still, both (Dervish Dance and Spell Combat) just require the off hand to be free, so as long as that happens, it shouldn't be an issue...
I'm inclined to agree, but it's something I'd advise being ready for disagreement on.

I find that highly unlikely. There is nothing in the rules to suggest so. It would take a DM who is going out of his way to piss on his players for there to be a problem.

Provos wrote:
I was commenting about Jiggy saying read carefull because I misread.

Cool, guys. Thanks again!

Seems to me that taking 1 level of Dawnflower Dervish is a no brainer for the Dervish Magus build.

Simply a no brainer.

+You save a feat (don't need weapon finesse)
+You get +2/+2 to all scimitar attacks when dancing (awesome sauce)
+AND you start the game with 10 skills
+Some minor additional spell casting

All for the cost of:
-1 level of Magus.

Seems like a GREAT trade to me. That +2/+2 is huge.

By level 2, the Dawnflower/Magus(kensai) gets Arcane strike and Weapon Focus so WITHOUT spending arcana (and assuming a 18 Dex and 18 Int) he has a +8 to-hit and +7 to damage on TWO Attacks per turn (both at -2).

Pretty sweet!

Provos wrote:
Jiggy was correct read carefully:/

I hate to be dense and slow. I just want to make sure I understand.

At the top of that link I see this:

"Below is a specific list of Paizo Publishing products and the equipment, traits, deities, spells, feats, and classes contained within that are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."

Under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic I see the following:

"Other: all magical tattoos on page 16, both the spellscar and outer rifts oracle mysteries on pages 30–31 (the spellscar oracle does not gain access to the eldritch scar, primal mastery, or trigger primal magic event revelations), all archetypes on pages 32–43 except the primalist wizard archetype, with the following restrictions: only elves may be spire defender magi, a tattooed sorcerer may only use her create spell tattoo power during days spent in play (ie. not between scenarios), a vampire hunter inquisitor does not gain the silversmith ability, instead replacing detect alignment with detect undead; the Varisian Pilgrim does not replace her 8th-level domain power with Blessing of the Harrow."

That is stating that all archetypes on pages 32-43 are legal. Hence, Dawnflower Dervish is legal.

Or are you just referring to the 12 level cap for PFS? That I concede, but I am hoping to take the character into a friend group from 13-20.

Am I missing something? Thanks again for helping me clarify. I do appreciate it.

Sniggevert wrote:
Provos wrote:

Additional Resources available for use in pfs is available here.

From that info the Dawnflower Dervish is not allowed.

The Kensai and Bladebound appear to be allowed.

The Dervish actually is allowed by the resource page as well...

Additional Resources wrote:
all archetypes on pages 32–43 except the primalist wizard archetype, with the following restrictions: only elves may be spire defender magi, a tattooed sorcerer may only use her create spell tattoo power during days spent in play (ie. not between scenarios), a vampire hunter inquisitor does not gain the silversmith ability, instead replacing detect alignment with detect undead; the Varisian Pilgrim does not replace her 8th-level domain power with Blessing of the Harrow.
The Dervish is among the archetypes on those pages.

Dawnflower Dervish is legal? Hot!

So! A one level dip into Dawflower Dervish gives me Dervish dancing for free at level 1 AND a +2/+2 combat bonus.

Then Magus for the next 19 levels.

Awesome. Very fun.

I have a couple of quick questions. Thanks in advance.

1) Where can I find a quick summary of which classes/archetypes are not legal in PFS?

(and you can guess what is coming next...)

2) Is the Dawnflower Dervish Bard achetype PFS legal (from Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic? rchetypes/dawnflower-dervish

3) I assume that the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes for Magus are both legal, correct?

Cheapy wrote:

There's probably some combination of classes that can outdamage my posted build (in the google docs), but what I like about AMY is that she not only can do a crap ton of damage, but also has great defenses.

DUDE! AND she can buff the party with extracts AND has a ton of skills that can include things like disable device and various knowledges.

The beast alchemist, particularly this pouncing sneak attack monster, is probably the single most useful party addition.

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
How would I go about making one? Would I adapt Werebears, or just use a werebear template?

Fun. Although unless it is facing hordes of bamboo groves, I think it will be in trouble.

Even more fun: were-koalas. NO EUCALYPTUS TREE WILL BE SAFE AGAIN! (well, outside of the 20 hours of sleep time).

Have the party alchemist implant bomb.

Only good for one use on the familiar.

Actually, this idea would make for a hilarious NPC encounter: mad alchemist using flocks of bomb implanted birds on the part.

Cheapy wrote:
I do enjoy the Shatter Defenses build, but at level 10, one level before you get SD, the alchemist will have Greater Invisibility maybe twice per day. So when you really need full sneak attack all the time for a combat, there's that. And it would save 3 feats. Yours has the advantage of not relying on limited resources, but doesn't work against enemies immune to fear effects.

Fair points.

I guess I would add that with enlarge person and the Mutagen AND intimidating prowess you are set up for a huge intimidate bonus so that the build can pretty much guarantee the shaken condition on all enemies (outside of fear ignoring ones).

What do you think about the uber trip build in comparison? I think it can trip giants at level 10 without much trouble.

My instinct is that the trip build above would be much more effective when facing groups of enemies while still being able to compete with the alchemist build against single targets... although the alchemist will probably eke out a bit more damage.

Now I also got into trip builds awhile back. I agree with the poster above that AOOs are underrated. I originally built a fauchard (exotic weapon with reach, trip and 18-20 crit range) wielding fighter/alchemist. Then someone took that build and tweaked it to something like the below.


5 AOOs at level 10 while raging!

Can constant rage by drinking alchohol as a move action. He can forgo the full attack as he is built around AOOs.

Of course he uses level 1 enlarge person potions constantly as needed. So his threaten area is 5-15 with lunge.

Gets an extra free trip every turn from flowing monk.

How does this stack up with the above?

Class: Fighter(9)/Barb(2)/Monk(1) [Fauchard]
Race: Half-elf

Str: 18 (10) (+2 from leveling)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 14 (5)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Pole-Arm Master
Drunken Brute
Flowing Monk

Tomb Raider (Perception/Dungeoneering)
Accelerated Drinker

Perception (1): +8
Knowledge- Engineering (1): +6
Knowledge- Dungeoneering (1): +7
Profession (Soldier): +5

Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Draconic

1: Fighter (1)
Feats: Combat Reflexes; Combat Expertise ; Ancestral Arms: Fauchard (from Half-Elf)

2: Fighter (2): Improved Trip
Class Ability: Polearm Fighting (-4 to attack to fight close. Bonus every 4 levels)

3: Barb (1): Extra Rage
Class ability: Extra 10’ of movement

4: Barb (2): Class ability: Quick Reflexes (rage power); Uncanny Dodge

5: Monk (1): Lunge; Improved Reposition (from Monk)
Class Ability: Flowing, Redirection

6: Fighter (3): Weapon Focus: Fauchard
Class Ability: Steadfast Pike (+1 to AOO and readied attacks. Bonus every 4 levels)

7: Fighter (4): Greater Trip

8: Fighter (5): Power Attack
Class Ability: Polearm training (+1 attack/damage. Bonus every 4 levels)

9: Fighter (6): Improved Criticals

10: Fighter (7): Critical Focus

11: Fighter (8): Weapon Specialization

12: Fighter (9): Bleeding Criticals
Class Ability: Flexible Flanker

13: Fighter (10): Tripping Strike
14: Fighter (11): ????
15: Fighter (12): Furious Focus
16: Fighter (13): Wep Spec, Greater
17: Fighter (14): Dreadful Carnage
18: Fighter (15): Stunning Criticals
19: Fighter (16): Critical Mastery
20: Fighter (17): -----

Rage: 13 rounds/day +booze

-Fort: 15 [7(fi) +2 (monk) + 3 (barb) +2(cor) +1(con)]
-Ref: 13 [7(fi) +2 (monk) +2(cor) +2 (dex)]
-Will: 8 [3(fi) +2 (monk) +2(cor) +1(wis)] and +2(RAGING)

AC: 23 [+10 (+1 Mithril Plate) + 2 (dex)+1(dex IOUN stone)]

+1 Mithril Plate (13.5k)
Boots of Speed (10k)
+2 Fauchard (8k)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16k)
+2 Cloak of resistance (4k)
+2 Ioun Stone of Dexterity (8k)

Hi. So it seems to me that just with beastmorph/vivisectionist you are going to be pretty sweet.

Now! What if we ALSO add in the Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses combo?

Why... you have infinite sneak attacks! Also, I really want to get Greater Beastform ASAP for pounce as that pretty much ensures constant full round attacks.

And, of course, with all of your skills you have non-combat applications as well.

Computed AC and saves for level 10.

Note that I chose an Elf with 16 Str, 16 Int and 16 Dex. I give up +1 to damage/to-hit for more skills, higher int skills, better initiative, better AC. Seemes like a good trade...

I concede CON is a tad low.

I also went with a level 18 potion of heroism to use with alchemical allocation. My concern with the greater fang potion is that it gets spread over all of your natural attacks for a +1 to each. Or are you guys saying that you alchemically allocate 3 of them?

Heroism is a pretty great boost.

Here is my non-multiclassed version:

Elven Monster
Class: Alchemist (Vivisectionist/Beast Morph)
Race: Elf
Trait: Osirionologist (class skill: History +1 / engineering +1)
Trait: Bully (Intimidate +1)
Race Trait: Silent Hunter
20pt buy....
Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Skills: Knowledge (nature): +7
Knowledge (history): +8
Intimidate: +3 (+str)
Perception: +8
Disable Device: +7
Craft (alchemy): +7
Stealth: +7
Languages: Common, Elven, Gnome, Draconic, Ancient Osirion

Saves (@lvl 10):
Fort: +12 (7+1 Con +2 cor+2 heroism)
Reflex: +13 (7+2 Dex +2 cor+2 heroism)
Will: +8 (3+1 wis+2 cor+2 heroism) (+2 vs sleep and enchantments)

AC: 27 (+7 mithril +4 dex +2 nat armor+1RoP) (+3Barkskin)

1. Alchemist (1) +0 BAB
Feat: Intimidating Prowess
Sneak Attack: 1d6
Mutagen: (+2/+4/-2) 10 minutes
Extracts: Comprehend languages, Cure light wounds, Disguise self, Enlarge person, Shield

2. Alchemist (2) +1 BAB
Feat: --------------
Sneak Attack: 1d6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 20 minutes
Discovery: Feral Mutagen
Extracts: Expeditious Retreat

3: Alchemist (3) +2 BAB
Class: Cruel Anatomist (nature is heal); Beastform mutagen
Feat: Power attack
Sneak Attack: 2D6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 30 minutes
Extracts: Identify

4: Alchemist (4) +3 BAB
Feat: -------------
Sneak Attack: 2D6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 40 minutes
Discovery: Extend Potion
Extracts: Alchemical Allocation

5: Alchemist (5) +3 BAB
Feat: Weapon Focus (Claws)
Sneak Attack: 3D6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 50 minutes
Extracts: Invisibility

6: Alchemist (6) +4 BAB
Class: Improved Beastform (beast form I)
Feat: ---------
Sneak Attack: 3d6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 60 minutes
Discovery: Infuse extract
Extracts: See Invisible

7: Alchemist (7) +5 BAB
Feat: Cornugon Smash
Sneak Attack: 4d6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 70 minutes
Extracts: haste

8: Alchemist (8) +6 BAB
Feat: --------------
Sneak Attack: 4d6
Mutagen: Feral Mutagen (+2/+4/-2) 80 minutes
Discovery: Spontaneous Healing
Extracts: Amplify elixir

9: Alchemist (9)
Feat: Dazzling Display
Sneak Attack: 5d6

10: Alchemist (10)
Class: Greater Beastform Mutagen
Sneak Attack: 5d6
Discovery: Combine Extracts

11: Master Chymist (1)
Feat: Shatter Defenses

12: Master Chymist (2)
Advanced Mutagen: Greater Mutagen
Brutality (+2)

13: Master Chymist (3)
Feat: Iron Will

14: Master Chymist (4)
Advanced Mutagen: Furious Mutagen

15: Master Chymist (5)

16: Master Chymist (6)
Sneak Attack: 6d6
Discovery: Grand Mutagen

17: Master Chymist (7)
Brutality +4

18: Master Chymist (8)
Advanced Mutagen: Extended Mutagen

19: Master Chymist (9)
Brutality: +6

20: Master Chymist (10)
Advanced Mutagen: Nimble

Weapons: long sword, composite long bow

Full Attack (Feral): 65 (no sa) / 96 (sa)
Single Attack (Feral): 23

+1 Amulet of mighty fists (5k)
+3 Mithril Chain Shirt (10.4k)
Boots of Speed (10k)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16k)
+2 Cloak of resistance (4k)
+2 Ioun Stone of Dexterity (8k)
18th level Potion of Heroism (2.75k)
Ring of Protection +1 (4k)

Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

Greetings all,

After taking a read through this thread I know I've found a new favorite place to burn some spare time at work ;) .

I'm going to be playing some type of barbarian for an upcoming Pathfinder campaign (non PFS, all Paizo-published products acceptable) and so I started doing some light number-crunching and theory-crafting on possible barbarian builds.

Since this thread deals specifically with optimizing barbarian builds I thought I'd post a couple of my thoughts so far as well as take the opportunity to ask a few questions of some peeps (you all) who obviously have more experience with barbarians than me.

Thoughts so far:

Superstitious: Undecided. I love the pros and hate the cons. I'm really not sold yet either way. I guess that means its balanced?

Invulnerable Rager: certainly seems awesome. Way more (IMO obviously) gain for what you sacrifice. The only bummer is it's too bad that DR doesn't affect falling damage. That would just be cool to rage and jump off a 20' wall and take no damge :) .

Scarred Rager (Ultimate Combat archetype): Is it just me or is this archetype every bit as awesome as Invulnerable Rager or Superstitious? It gives a second save against some pretty nasty conditions and reduces the duration on any non-saveable conditions by 1/2. Everything from rage-induced fatigue to Power Word, Stun spells get half the duration....that just seems awesome to me. Its too bad Maze doesn't actually apply some sort of condition to you while you're in it...finally, Scarred Rager still leaves you with your base barbarian DR intact (IIRC)!


1) The Invulnerable Rager: Dwarf Barbarian 20. This one is just basic fun destructive. No MAD like you get with multi-classing, either.

2) Alchemist 4(?)/ Barbarian (16): Without going the distance in Alchemist to reach Master Chymist, 4 levels gives you brew potion and an extract list that totally kicks ass for melee combat. Also the +4 alchemical bonus to strength from the mutagen makes me smile wide....

To add to your alchemist points:

1) Alchemical Allocation + Extend Potion + Lvl 18 Heroism potion = 6 hours of +2 to hit and all saves and can use the potion over and over!

2) Enlarge person! Can cast this 4 times a day on yourself!

I built a alch 4/fighter 16 trip fighter in another thread. I'll try it with a Barbarian...

3) NO BOMBS! Vivisectionist for 2d6 sneak attack damage!

Mike Schneider wrote:

<cracking knuckles>

Half-Elf Fauchard-Master

Half-elf [Ancestral Arms]

STR+17 ...20pt

01 barb1 Move+10, Extra Rage (12r/day), EWP:Fauchard
02 monk1 [Flowing][Redirection][Improved Reposition]
03 fight1 [Weapon Master:Fauchard], Power Attack, Cleave
04 barb2 STR>18, [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon], Rage 14r/day
05 fight2 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
06 fight3 [Weapon Training+1:Fauchard]
07 fight4 Greater Trip, Finishing Cleave

Buy Gloves of Dueling and murder the party. (Read up on Flowing monk.)

Build progression: character is a neutral-evil mercenary who poses as lawful while infiltrating a Shelyn monastery to learn the arts of glaive-fighting; takes off after getting the basics and resumes his barbaric ways with a similar but deadlier weapon. Eschews graceful flurries for massive attacks against targets either rendered prone or nudged into a Cleave line-up via a Reposition maneuver taken as an immediate action when he was attacked by a PC.

I am so very glad I came back to reread this thread. Hilarious and clever. Let me think this through.

For a face character it is hard to beat an Infernal Sorceror spamming charm spells.

Between charm, bluff and diplomacy, that character can talk his way out of anything AND can bluff and diplomacy his way though combat as well using charm.

A DC on charm of 19-20 or so at level 1 is hilarious. So is +9 to Diplomacy and Bluff at level 1.

Much depends on your DM and your creativity. If you are witty in real life, you can probably sell the combat power of this combo more effectively.

I plan on trying this out in my next campaign. Fun character concept.

AND, you are still a fantastic arcane mage giving you access to all of the god powers in the game. Outside of charm you can do all kinds of cool stuff.

He becomes a fantastic battlefield controller. AND a great devil summoner (as diplomacy checks are needed with Planar Binding). You will want Augment summoning at some point.

You will want to take linguistics as an early feat, I think. You will also want an intelligence of 12 for the extra language and skill point.

I recommend a human for the spell bonus. Here is a quick thought on the build (minus feats outside of level 1). I have also included spell recommendations. Note that I have included the +1 spell known/level from being a HUMAN sorceror:

Class: Sorceror
Race: Human
Faction: Taldor

Str: 7 (-4)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 9 (-1)
Cha: 19 (13)

Bloodline: Infernal
(+2 initiative)
Fashionable (+1 to sense motive, bluff, diplomacy… sense motive is class skill)

Skills (@level 1)
Spellcraft: 5
Sense Motive: 5
Bluff: 9
Diplomacy: 9


1: Sorc (1)
Spell Focus: Enchantments
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantments / Linguistics instead?
2: Sorc (2):
3: Sorc (3):
4: Sorc (4):
5: Sorc (5):
6: Sorc (6):
7: Sorc (7):
Bloodline Feat: Spell Penetration
8: Sorc (8):
9: Sorc (9):
10: Sorc (10):
11: Sorc (11):
12: Sorc (12):

Spell List:

0: Mage Hand, Read Magic, Message, Light, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Spark, Acid Splash, Ghost Sound

1 (8): Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Protection from Good, Grease, Color Spray, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Unseen Servant

2 (7): See Invisibility, Invisibility, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Hideous Laughter, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray

3 (7): Stinking Cloud, Summon Monsters III, Phantom Steed, Haste, Fire Ball, Suggestion, Magic Circle Against Evil

4 (6): Black Tentacles, Summon Monster IV, Confusion, Enervation, Dimension Door, Fear, Charm Monster

5 (6): Magic Jar, Telekinesis, Telepathic Bond, Dimensional Anchor, Wall of Stone, Feeblemind, Dominate Person

6 (6): Dispel Magic (Greater), Disintegrate, Summon Monster VI, Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Circle of Death, Planar Binding (programmable image?)

7 (5): Summon Monster VII, Arcane Sight (Greater), Grasping Hand, Reverse Gravity, Polymorph (Greater), Waves of Exhaustion, Teleport (Greater) (project image?)

8 (5): Planar Binding (Greater), Maze, Clone, Form of the Dragon III, Polymorph Any Object, power word stun

9 (6): Mage’s Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Summon Monster IX, Time Stop, Wish, Dominate Monster, meteor swarm

Suppose it depends on DM rulings.

My thoughts on how to rule it:

1. I'd say no. Flaming sphere is doing all of the burning. If you were grappling with an orc and were hit by the same spell would you take secondary damage from the burning orc? No. Also, webs burn super fast... as in instantly. Go try taking a lighter to a spider web. The stuff burns up just from too much heat being nearby.

2. I'd rule no on this one too. Webs burn too fast.

3. I'd rule that cast a web spell on a burning sphere results in nothing happening. Web burns up instantly.

Also, it is pretty early for anyone to be up. I'd be asleep, but had a work emergency and needed to get some stuff done from home.

Mogart wrote:

Lately my DM has been reading a lot game mechanics as RAW. For instance, he forces me to roll handle animal every time my summoned monster attacks or takes damage to determine if the Summoned animal runs away.

I have 3 questions.

1. Since the planes that you summon creatures from are infinitely large, can you just say "I summon an earth elemental that speaks common, the plane of earth is huge so there has to be at least one earth elemental that speaks common." to take care of the language barrier?

2. If the summoned creature attacks your opponents to the best of its abilities as soon as it comes into play, does it automatically know who the bad guys are? As opposed to spending the next few rounds to determine who is friend and foe.

If the creature does know friend from foe, does this mean that in times of non-combat can I summon a creature to determine if someone is hostile toward me?

3. How many tricks does a summoned monster know so that you don't have to make DC 25 handle animal checks to get the animal to attack?

Below is the text for the Summon Monster Spell

Summon Monster Text

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table: Summon Monster. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

If you have to know the language of every creature you summon then the summoning lines of spells are worthless.

Also, the quote you bold seems pretty clear to me: creature attacks your foes by default.

ALSO, I have played this game since AD&D, hell, since the red book and I have NEVER had to speak the language of my summons.

Not sure where your DM came up with this.

As for your questions:

1. Sure, if your DM insists on the language rule. I like your solution. Sort of a silly "F U" to a silly ruling.

2. We always ruled that if summoned out of combat, the creature(s) will attack bad guys as soon as they see your party attack the baddies or the baddies attack you.

3. As per (2), we never had to convince the summoned monster to attack. Otherwise you are nerfing the pewp out of that entire spell line.

lastblacknight wrote:
Gelmir wrote:

I like making jokes during games... particularly dark ones. Does that mean I need an alignment change? Why can't my Paladin be a cynical dude? People are complicated. Makes the role playing more fun.

Have you tried discussing role playing a bit?

Role-playing? - well I have one of those nice little stars next to my name and I play/GM three games a week on average. So some people might assume I have some experience [anyway enough about me].

Humour is fine, generally in any flavour. But some humour isn't appropriate especially if you have a younger player present (not the case obviously here). But as for laughing whilst your animal companion is torn into three pieces - I'd have to say that crosses a line. It's evil and not the 'diet coke' of evil kind of thing - it's the start down a very slippery slope.

Communication and cooperation only work if both people are happy to listen to what each has to say, not talk. The GM at the table is the final word, his/her view is balanced by everyone's needs at the table (not just yours) and is guided by the story and the rules.

Well, my point was that if you and your players are not aligned on what makes a good game and what the boundaries of conduct are within an alignment... then you have a disconnect. Not saying anyone is wrong or right... just saying that a discussion where the boundaries are sorted out would certainly help the situation. Your GM comment seems odd in relation to mine. My point was that everyone is working together (GM included) to tell a story. It is collaboration (again, GM included). Ideally the basic boundaries of conduct can be agreed on and an effort should be made to lay those out before trouble hits.

The story as I have read it sounds like you have a couple of guys enjoying themselves in the game world and breaking immersiveness for everyone else. That sucks. But the way to fix it is NOT punishment. The real way to fix it is to stop and explain why the behavior is not working for you.

A nice, adult discussion could then take place. Your players might learn to role play better. You might realize that they have a point about how they see their characters.

A discussion around in character and out of character humor would help everyone's experience as well.

As for dice rolling: a GM cheating to the detriment of the players is kind of sh*tty. Sorry, just is. You want to play kid gloves and save them? ok. But once you are artificially penalizing them, you are taking away their agency and fun.

Now, if you want to punish them by having a random monster attack, fine. But if they luck their way out of the encounter then good on them.

Maxximilius wrote:
Gelmir wrote:
And dice cheating by the DM is b@@#%#!+. Really. This is a GAME. If you can't be trusted to play a fantasy game straight... then you are either inherently a cheater or have let the DM hat go to your head.

I'm sure you will remember this the next time a character you love and have played since a long time is killed by some puny mooks because the DM critted, and didn't decide it was best if you were just put inconscious instead of cold-dead.

Fudging with dice is a whole part of the DM's role - but it should be done without the player's knowledge, and only when it would mean more fun for the players around the table. Not to be a dick and railroad the story.

Ok. So fair point. The theme of my post was the same as yours: the idea is to have fun. Not to "beat" the players or force your vision.

That said: when you play on virtual tables online, there is no dice fudging and I somewhat like the purity of it. I like knowing that no deity will save me if I have a run of bad luck. I realize I may be in the minority.

Muser wrote:

Really cool story ;)

But nothing compared to a celestial whooly mammoth, used on the astral plane on an astral ship as a torpedo against a giant flying brain with tentacles :D

See? Plans like THIS make table top games so very much better than online role playing games.

Muser wrote:

This reminds me of the time when my cleric character and the buddy druid character teamed up and first summoned a celestial t-rex via summon monster, then cast animal growth on it and finally strong jaw (or it was the other way around, can't recall). Then our party transmuter gave it the ability to fly.

Seeing a silvery terror-lizard sailing through the skies and munching on an adult blue dragon(smiting evil as well) had our GM make us swore to never again attempt the thing. Not because it was particularly dangerous, though it killed the dragon with three bites, but because the image was utterly ridiculous in a such an apocalyptic scenario as Spires of Xin-Shalast.

Just throwing that out there. I'm sure a dedicated conjurer would eh...conjure up something far worse. Celestial Rocs? Colossal fiendish purple worm against a good outsider? A pack of Augmented lemures in an orphanage? Yikes.

AHHAHHA. Awesome. My old group would have loved that, DM especially. Might have even granted a special reward for creativity. I certianly would have as DM.

If the players are doing something that enriches the gaming experience (see, for example, enlarged T-REX of BITEY DOOM!) then that is AWESOME for everyone. Even if a tad silly.

lastblacknight wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:
I think some of the posters are getting out of line here....
I like the part where you tell us we have no right to judge him and then immediately proceed to judge us and his players.

So much love....please are not doing yourself any favours.

[ and back to to OP ]

I agree with some of the other suggestions, except I'd take it one step further. If they are being evil and callus give them exactly what they deserve.

The alignment needs to change, give them familiars and companions with an agenda. After all, their actions aren't attracting good attention. Give the Wizard a Quasit (complete with the whole I am stealing your soul bit). I would even allow a goblin or barghest companion for the druid (give them something to try and control - control the uncontrollable, something that takes them down the path to true and unredeemable evil).
The game will have to change as there is a clear difference in styles, have the BBEG make overtures about brining them on-board as partners only to double-cross them etc..

You can then have Paladins and churches send champions to take them out, actions have consequences.

Tormenting creatures is an evil act, even worse when one has chosen to stand at your side and you make jokes about it's death...

Seems to me this could all be fixed by a conversation with the players about ingame vs out of game comments. Would alleviate this whole mess.

I like making jokes during games... particlarly dark ones. Does that mean I need an alignment change? Why can't my Paladin be a cynical dude? People are complicated. Makes the role playing more fun.

Have you tried discussing role playing a bit?

Seems to me that there is not enough communication between DM and players about how everyone wants the game played (as stated by someone else above).

This game is COOPERATIVE. That includes the DM. Everyone is trying to build a world together that they can enjoy. Setting ground rules on what that means to everyone is important.

Trying to fix it through punishments on the players is really not a good idea. People aren't going to want to play. The DMs job is to provide a background story for the players to play in... not to arbitrarily punish them.

And dice cheating by the DM is b#@$$~&~. Really. This is a GAME. If you can't be trusted to play a fantasy game straight... then you are either inherently a cheater or have let the DM hat go to your head.

Lincoln Hills wrote:

That's an awfully generous interpretation of "do not decay." Ordinarily 'dying of old age when your time is up' is the presumed default - even true resurrection, which creates an entirely new body for you, does not reset the Death Clock.

It'd probably have to be a GM call. Is aging primarily linked to the physical body (as flesh to stone suggests, since your spirit never departs even if your body is frozen beyond your normal lifespan) or is it primarily linked to the time allotted to your soul (as the absence of a resurrection 'reset' would suggest)?

Well... I read the rule as the body is effectively held in stasis. If it is not decaying it should not age. Of course, I defer to any body of rules that someone can quote where this is not the case.

Resurrection can be easily distinguished: your body is being resurrected as it was right before you died. You aren't saving any days of life by being resurrected.

Here, you are living out your days in another body. The two are fundamentally different. Rules for resurrection are therefore not persuasive.

And I don't understand why the age of your soul determines death. This makes no sense in the light of biology. Yeah, yeah, fantasy game etc. Such a rule would break my ability to believe.

I might be persuaded by any official ruling which rules against life extension through a magic jar trick. But I would like to see the reasoning.

As for why I care about this... a Master Chymist does not get to take a level 20 discovery (and therefore no Eternal Youth)... hence the work around.