Can a Druid wild shaped into a dinosaur benefit from Handwraps? I have read no since they can only benefit from circumstance and status bonuses but I've also read the contrary, so which one is it?
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If i am not mistaken you can use your regular unnarmed bonus(with handwraps and everything else) or your dinossaur bonus(without handwraps).
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If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
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If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
The wild order druid focus spell version of wildshape/animal form etc, gives a specific exception allowing you to use your regular to-hits with a +2 bonus if you use your own stats rather than that given by the spell.(page 401 of the CRB)
The wild order druid focus spell version of wildshape/animal form etc, gives a specific exception allowing you to use your regular to-hits with a +2 bonus if you use your own stats rather than that given by the spell.(page 401 of the CRB)If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
Inkfist's quote does clarify that the Striking portion does not stack.
The wording of the Wild Order ability needs to clarify what counts as "your own stats" because I can see different interpretations:
1. Your attack bonus before taking Battle Form, therefore including the magic item bonus.
2. Your attack bonus after taking Battle Form, therefore not including the magic item bonus.
3. Your attack bonus after taking Battle form, but including the magic item bonus because the Wild Order ability implies it's still active.
I don't see why 1 would be true since why check a past version of you, nor do I think 3 is implied. That leaves 2, except then the Wild Order ability would seldom be useful. That might be intentional, so that it takes much investment to break the balance curve.
Thankfully I doubt this will arise in any of my games, though I'd like Paizo to answer just in case.
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The wild order druid focus spell version of wildshape/animal form etc, gives a specific exception allowing you to use your regular to-hits with a +2 bonus if you use your own stats rather than that given by the spell.(page 401 of the CRB)If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.Inkfist's quote does clarify that the Striking portion does not stack.
The wording of the Wild Order ability needs to clarify what counts as "your own stats" because I can see different interpretations:
1. Your attack bonus before taking Battle Form, therefore including the magic item bonus.
2. Your attack bonus after taking Battle Form, therefore not including the magic item bonus.
3. Your attack bonus after taking Battle form, but including the magic item bonus because the Wild Order ability implies it's still active.I don't see why 1 would be true since why check a past version of you, nor do I think 3 is implied. That leaves 2, except then the Wild Order ability would seldom be useful. That might be intentional, so that it takes much investment to break the balance curve.
Thankfully I doubt this will arise in any of my games, though I'd like Paizo to answer just in case.
"If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties."
Like it's said only the battle form statistics can't benefit from item bonuses... Your statitics can... And it's said on the battleform your BAB or the special ones from the form...
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I ran the math previously comparing barbarian/rogue/wild-shaped druid, accounting for ability modifiers, proficiency, and class modifiers. (Not accounting for magic weapons/handwarps).
The wild shaped druid is +/1 from the non-fighter martials at all levels, when using their own to-hit + w/ the bonus +2 from the focus spell. This suggests to me that, to maintain parity, the handwraps to-hit bonus should apply, when using the own stats.
On the damage side, where I do give the rogue and barbarian striking runes of the appropriate level, the druid tends to lag by about 4-8 damage at low levels and catches up at 18+. (with their final forms). The amount of difference bounces around a fair bit and is NOT consistently increasing (as would be the case if they needed extra damage dice to stay current).
This suggests to me that the rogue sneak attack/barbarians rage are the source of the difference (countered by the druid's flexibility in attack traits by that level). Again implying that handwraps dice DON'T apply in wild shape.
So for me:
Yes. Handwaps (potency) to-hit modifiers apply to 'your own stats' when using wild shape.
No. Striking/property runes do not apply in wild-shaped form.
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I am necroing this thread since it's come up for me, and this seems to be the largest thread on the topic.
I do not agree that Item Bonuses would be added. YOUR attack modifier is your Proficiency and your Strength. The item bonus is only modifying your normal bonus.
When determining your bonus in a battle form, you should not look at what your bonus is when you're not polymorphed, but rather what it is in that moment. So you would determine your proficiency bonus, Str bonus, and any other bonuses that would apply in a battle form. Since Item bonuses are not one of them, you wouldn't apply it.
I believe the reason there's a +2 Status bonus when you use your modifier is to make up for the fact you can't apply the item bonus most PCs would have at those levels. Otherwise, why wouldn't it apply when using the base modifier of the form?
I am necroing this thread since it's come up for me, and this seems to be the largest thread on the topic.
I do not agree that Item Bonuses would be added. YOUR attack modifier is your Proficiency and your Strength. The item bonus is only modifying your normal bonus.
When determining your bonus in a battle form, you should not look at what your bonus is when you're not polymorphed, but rather what it is in that moment. So you would determine your proficiency bonus, Str bonus, and any other bonuses that would apply in a battle form. Since Item bonuses are not one of them, you wouldn't apply it.
I believe the reason there's a +2 Status bonus when you use your modifier is to make up for the fact you can't apply the item bonus most PCs would have at those levels. Otherwise, why wouldn't it apply when using the base modifier of the form?
With your reasoning, why would you apply your strength modifier to your attack rolls while wild shaped? If you aren't getting item bonuses I can't see why you would be getting your proficiency and your ability modifier added. Is there some part of the rules which defines your attack modifier as just your proficiency + STR mod?
Regardless, the only things that cannot be modified per the Polymorph rules are the forms special statistics, your own attack modifier is not one of these special statistics. In addition "Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items." you still have the item bonus active, it just cannot apply to the statistics granted by the form, but it can still apply to your attack bonus (which is unchanged and unrestricted).
As for extra dice, unfortunately paizo hasn't really defined what a special statistic is with regard to Battle Forms (see the 8th level barbarian feat that seems to do nothing depending on what you consider a statistic, Animal Rage) so you'll have to decide whether or not damage dice are a special statistic, and whether an extra dice is "adjusting" them. Does flaming work? What about sneak attack? What about critical hits? Those are all extra dice/damage that could be said to modify a statistic.
Regardless, Striking sets you to a number of damage dice for your weapon, it doesn't actually give you more dice. So having Striking handwraps won't do anything for canine form jaws for example, because they start at 2d8, and it won't do anything once the dice are doubled at higher levels.
I have a really long section on it in my guide. There are fundamental things that Paizo need to clarify so it is impossible to be clear about everything. However some things we can say.
1) If you are wearing +1 striking , flaming, ghost touch Handwraps of Mighty Blows then:
a) the +1 does not add, because the Battle form spell gives you an attack bonus and this is an item bonus not status or circumstance bonus.
b) the striking rune wants to add damage dice, but it can't because the Battle form spell tells you your damage dice and this is not a status or circumstance bonus.
c) the flaming rune, is adding additional damage. So this additional damage is extra to the Battle form spell, and not something specified in the spell that you can't change. It works. If you doubt this, go read Marks statement on Additional Damage.
d) The ghost touch rune works. Again because its just not mentioned in the Battle form spell, so its not trying to change that.
Is that clear enough? I don't think that there is any doubt about any of that. You should be able to work out other hand wraps properties.
What is debated is:
2) Can you add your item bonus to hit from the handwarps when you are working out the druids attack bonus before applying the battle from spell? This is for the purpose of the Wild Shape Focus Spell ability to substitute in your own attack bonus. I am a fairly confident yes here. But there are some significant voices against.
3) Can you consider STR or DEX to calculate the druids attack bonus for the same purpose? Is it determined by the form you are changing into, as some specific STR or DEX, but most don't? Or is it determined by the attack bonus of the Druid with say a Fist which is a Finesse weapon? Some people have a firm opinion on this. I go back and forwards on it.
You just have to ask your GM.
Aggressive? No. Directly responding to your point, yes. My definitions are fine. You are the one who is engaging in personal insults. Wow. If you want to participate in a forum you have to expect to be challenged.
Anyway you got back to the curx of the matter. The insistance that there is a generic or default unarmed attack modifier, and that this default unarmed attack modifier is what the druid must use. Whereas, the alternative position is that the druid can choose any unarmed attack modifier that he has.
The rules state:
"If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead."
Personally I would choose my best unarmed attack modifier.
Rereading p444 of the Core Rule Book doesn't seem to help. The problem being the rules are just not written in a precise formal nomenclature. That was a design choice from Paizo.
So you get to make up your own mind.
Fist is also Agile. Do you give -4 to your second bite attacks because that's "using the fist attack modifier for my druid's second attack"?
Again a strawman. I did not say, mean, want or imply that. I wrote about attack modifiers. Thats all the rules says, thats all I'm trying to find.
Again a strawman. I did not say, mean, want or imply that. I wrote about attack modifiers. Thats all the rules says, thats all I'm trying to find.
Fist is also Agile. Do you give -4 to your second bite attacks because that's "using the fist attack modifier for my druid's second attack"?
That thing right there, what you tried to do, is the definition of strawman, Grats.
MAP modifies your attack modifier exactly like Finesse modifies it.
Again:
Nothing, NOTHING, says to use your Fist modifier.
It says use your Unarmed modifier.
Melee unarmed is, by default, Strength based.
You are not understanding me. I am never saying to use your fist or any properties of your fist in battle form. But rather some of the battle form spells have the clause that you can use the druid unarmed attack modifier in place. I am only working out how that modifier is calulated. Nothing about the unarmed attack the druid has in his natural form has any bearing on the battle form, except for the modifier.
It is nonsensical to says that the fist has any bearing on the dinosaurs tail slap. The spell never says that. I never say that. So why are you arguing that?
All I say to do with the fist is use it to find the number.
Why are talking about MAP? That is not a penalty that applies all the time to an attack. It depends on circumstances. Surely that is something that can reasonablty be applied as it occurs.
This is the thing: The rule says unarmed modifier in some places and sometimes unarmed attack bonus. That is not a term defined anywhere in the rules. Ability modifier is defined but that doesn't include proficiency bonus - so it would give a pointless result and can't be right.
Total modifier is defined, but that includes proficiency bonus, ability modifer, all the other bonuses and penalties. Which ones do you include? Do you include item bonuses, status bonuses, penalities.
Yes STR is the default attribute used for unarmed attacks. Do you just use that? Or do you choose a specific unarmed attack and use that? The rules do not say.
I choose to use a specific one because its the only way to get a number that is reasonably comparable to the base number in the spell. A really low number would mean that that option would be useless, and wild shape would suck. Do you really want the Wildshape Dragon to have a lower attack roll, than the Druid with his handwraps?
I choose to include always on bonuses in the calculation like item bonuses for the same reason.
I choose not to include MAP or situational modifiers as these are things that can be applied later. It would be double dipping to include them twice.
Balance is the reason I go this way. The rules provide no clear guidance.
If you think there is clear guidance then show it to me.
So, the question one should ask oneself is: is the +2 bonus from wild shape meant to actually be a bonus? If so, you pretty much need to also include handwraps. Otherwise, it doesn't actually do anything.
The math in PF2e is well known to be tight, and the Handwraps being included in the calculation is in line with the schedule. Your examples just confirm it once again
If he wants to specialise in Wildshape, he needs to boost Str. It will grant him minimal advantage on his on-level wildshapes, and advantage of progressively greater hit advantage on his lower level wildshapes.
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Everyone is thinking about this incorrectly. When you are affected by a battle form, you are using that form's specific attacks. That attack, which is granted by the spell is not able to be modified by item bonuses. You are able to use your bonus for the specific attack, and if you do you calculate it on the spot as normal, using all modifiers except item bonuses.
I think it's a bit extraneous to compare a Druid wild shaping to a Fighter. There are many more benefits to Animal Form than hitting harder, plus the spell scales and allows you to eventually become a Huge creature with a bunch more benefits.
At level 11, a Druid would either get a +18 to hit with the spell, or a +22 with their own attack modifier, assuming they have 20 Str. A fighter would have a +22 without Item bonuses. Essentially the Druid is on par with a Fighter, without having to spend a single gold to do so.
Further more, lets look at a similar ability, the Barbarian's Animal Rage. They gain the effects of a 3rd level Animal shape, except they keep their own attacks. Since they are not using an attack granted by a spell, they can keep their item bonuses and their rage bonus damage. All this ability really does for a Barbarian is give them scent and increase their speed a bit. At level 11, a Barbarian would have +20 but since they are using their own attacks, not an attack granted by the spell, they are affected by their runes as normal, giving them a +22 to hit.
So is it really fair to say Druids should hit just as often as Fighters of the same level, just because they can transform into an animal? Fighters spend months practicing with a specific weapon group to gain the proficiency they have. To take that away from them is just like saying Fighters are useless.
Also my main point from a rules standpoint: Attacks granted by a Battle Form can not be modified by Item Bonuses.
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Is that clear enough? I don't think that there is any doubt about any of that. You should be able to work out other hand wraps properties.
I think you're wrong. I think that every one of those 4 points is in contention. People read the words quite differently and Paizo has been silent on the subject.
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Druids can't have Str 20 at level 11 without some shenanigans. They can't start higher than 16 (because their key stat is Wisdom), so at level 11 they can't have more than 19 (boost to 18 at level 5 and 19 at level 10).
Also, using level 11 for Animal Form is disingenuous for two reasons. One is that Animal Form stops scaling at 9. After that, you're expected to move on to bigger and better things: +21 for plant or aerial form, or +22 for dragon form. Also, level 11 is when druids get their proficiency increase, which means it favors the druid a bit.
And an 11th level fighter starting with an 18 Str or Dex would have an attack bonus of +24 at level 11 (master +6, level +11, Str/Dex +5, item +2). A druid with +2 handwraps (assuming they work for the sake of argument) would have +21 (expert +4, level +11, Str +4, item +2), the same as that given by level-appropriate shapes. Really, the only thing allowing handwraps to work in this situation does is to allow the druid to keep using animal form instead of one of the higher-level ones without nerfing themselves completely.
If we instead compare things at level 13, when the martials increase proficiency again, we have Dinosaur Form or Elemental Form at +25. A fighter would now have +28 (legend +8, level +13, Str +5, item +2), and a druid with handwraps enabled would have +25 (expert +4, level +13, Str +4, item +2, status +2). Again, the handwraps just bring them up to the level the spells already give them and let them use lower-level versions without being underpowered.
I forgot Druids can't choose Str as their boost, so yea my math would be -1, and I chose 11 since that's when Druids become Experts in Unarmed. It's the closest the two can be. And yea, Fighters will overshadow Druids in attack modifier but Druids can become Dragons so is it really that important to get that extra +2?
Then at level 15, Dragon Form gives a +28 to hit, while Fighters get +30 (8+15+5+2). Over all Wild Druids will be just behind Fighters, but they have so many more options than just "Strike".
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You are able to use your bonus for the specific attack, and if you do you calculate it on the spot as normal, using all modifiers except item bonuses.
You keep saying this, but you haven't really offered a compelling reason why item bonuses in particular are excluded.
The rules tell you that the special statistics granted by the form can't be modified by item bonuses, but if you're using your own modifiers you are, by definition, not using the special statistics granted by the spell for your attack modifier.
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You are able to use your bonus for the specific attack, and if you do you calculate it on the spot as normal, using all modifiers except item bonuses.You keep saying this, but you haven't really offered a compelling reason why item bonuses in particular are excluded.
The rules tell you that the special statistics granted by the form can't be modified by item bonuses, but if you're using your own modifiers you are, by definition, not using the special statistics granted by the spell for your attack modifier.
The "Special Statistic" is the Strike granted by the spell. The Strike has a set damage and modifier, but if you are more proficient than the spell grants you can apply your own proficiencies to the Strike.
There are only three bonus types in the game and the trait explicitly excludes one of them. If we are just going to ignore that why did they bother excluding it in the first place?
Also ask yourself why Wild Morph grants a Status Bonus and not an Item Bonus? Plenty of spells grant Item Bonuses, so why in this specific case is it a Status bonus, one of the two bonus types allowed by Polymorph effects?
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If we are just going to ignore that why did they bother excluding it in the first place?
We're not ignoring anything. You can't apply item bonuses if you're using the special statistics granted by the form.
But if you aren't using those numbers, then it's fair game, because the rule preventing you from applying item bonuses to the modifier granted by the spell... doesn't matter if you aren't using the modifier granted by the spell.
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Look, if something is asking for your Melee attack modifier, you don't include item bonuses just because your primary weapon has a rune on it. The same goes for Unarmed strikes. The rune on the handwraps applies to YOUR unarmed strikes not unarmed strikes granted by a spell. You need to consider them a separate weapon. The spell gives you these strikes, and you can not modify them with Item bonuses because the Polymorph trait says you can't.
It seems in total Druid has the exact bonus as a martial if they get the item bonuses (4 levels they are ahead, and 4 levels they are behind) with the major difference that they get most of the "ahead" curve in the early and mid levels (up to level 12) while martials get their "ahead" levels mostly in late game (13, 14, and 20 being 3 out of 4 of those)(assuming that druid goes for Apex Strength as well like the martial, else he will be behind at levels 17+)
Is that correct?
I think its best to look at Gishers's chart which is already done for us
If you look at the attack bonus inherent in the battle form spells at the minimum level the spell can be taken - it seems to mostly line up with the standard martial row.
Compare one of the standard martial rows say Ranger for best attack bonus to the Druids line for weapon secondary STR or DEX. Note that this is assuming an item bonus, and that the Druid puts maximum effort into their secondary stat.
If you add in the +2 status bonus. Ignore level 1 and 2 as there is no battle form that can attack at that level. The wild shape druid is ahead by 1 for level 3 and 4, is then equal to or 1 behind. Exception being level 20 where it is further behind. So not bad.
However. Its two actions for the Druid to get into wild shape form. It factors in a status bonus, and its quite likely that a martial charater can get a status bonus from another source like from a Bard or a Cleric- which won't stack on the Druid.
Looks fair to me. Really all that the wild shape bonus is doing is covering a few level gaps and keeping the wild shape druid at close to the martial numbers.
If you consider the a martial multiclassing to get a wild shape form, all they really get is a status bonus (and reach). The damage is around the same and there are other ways to get a status bonus. Plus the martial based wildshaper will have a worse AC.
OR you can come up with a rules interpretation that makes wild shaping have large negative hit penalty and write it out of your game as a combat form.
I think you're wrong. I think that every one of those 4 points is in contention. People read the words quite differently and Paizo has been silent on the subject.
Is that clear enough? I don't think that there is any doubt about any of that. You should be able to work out other hand wraps properties.
I am very happy to discuss any of those 4 points. I think the rules are clear there. Please point me to another thread or take a specific position.
OR you can come up with a rules interpretation that makes wild shaping have large negative hit penalty and write it out of your game as a combat form.
And that is the most logical reason to have wildshape work with the ++ of the handwraps. For it to have any effect (keep at about the same level as martials) it needs to count.
And for those who say druids have so much more: no casting in wildshape, communication is hard, once per fight usually, so getting out of form to cast doesn't happen much, you're stuck with the given size, often huge, which is no fun while dungeon crawling.
I was in Cordell's game and looks like my druid might have been the trigger for the necro. :P
I had interpreted as that item bonuses would apply if using the druid's usual unarmed modifier, but seems there might not be consensus on this. Until an official FAQ comes, I'll just clarify with the GM for each game.
I would get the potency and striking rune anyway because there are times that I just want to wild morph instead of wild shape (when I only have 1 action to spare instead of 2, when I need to be able to cast spells). Need the potency rune also to get property runes, e.g. ghost-touch. (Unless someone also tells me that property runes don't work in which case Khunbish would be a very sad druid.)
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OR you can come up with a rules interpretation that makes wild shaping have large negative hit penalty and write it out of your game as a combat form.And that is the most logical reason to have wildshape work with the ++ of the handwraps. For it to have any effect (keep at about the same level as martials) it needs to count.
And for those who say druids have so much more: no casting in wildshape, communication is hard, once per fight usually, so getting out of form to cast doesn't happen much, you're stuck with the given size, often huge, which is no fun while dungeon crawling.
So you're just going to ignore the various speed types, senses, damage types like poison bleed and elemental, abilities like breath weapons, and all the various resistances?
I made a chart. Without the item bonuses you would be using the Spell's bonus most of the time, assuming you always become the best possible option. At level 20, that's +34 vs a fighter's +38. Using the second best form at level 20 is +31, which a druid beats with a +32. The reason they have this line in the battle forms is so that a level 20 character using a level 2 Animal Form spell isn't stuck with a +9 to hit.
Druids are still casters. The whole reason they are behind is because of that fact. Just because you can't cast spells in a battle form doesn't mean they can't cast spells before transforming, or outside of combat. Why would anyone want to be a fighter if they can just be a Druid instead? Lose 3 to hit but gain an entire spell list? That sounds like a pretty good trade off.
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I was doing some more research and found this spell, Primal Herd. This spell explicitly allows item bonuses. No other battle form spell has this wording, which leads me to the conclusion I have stated before:
Attacks granted by a Battle Form can not be modified by Item Bonuses (Unless stated otherwise in the specific effect).
I was doing some more research and found this spell, Primal Herd. This spell explicitly allows item bonuses. No other battle form spell has this wording, which leads me to the conclusion I have stated before:
Attacks granted by a Battle Form can not be modified by Item Bonuses (Unless stated otherwise in the specific effect).
Thats because this spell doesn't have a default attack number at all.
Its a very different Battle Form spell.
However the attack number that results lines up with the number I would get to as an alternative number.
But either way I'm not advocating the highlighted point you make on battle forms. If you think I am then go back and reread earlier posts.
OR you can come up with a rules interpretation that makes wild shaping have large negative hit penalty and write it out of your game as a combat form.And that is the most logical reason to have wildshape work with the ++ of the handwraps. For it to have any effect (keep at about the same level as martials) it needs to count.
And for those who say druids have so much more: no casting in wildshape, communication is hard, once per fight usually, so getting out of form to cast doesn't happen much, you're stuck with the given size, often huge, which is no fun while dungeon crawling.
So you're just going to ignore the various speed types, senses, damage types like poison bleed and elemental, abilities like breath weapons, and all the various resistances?
I made a chart. Without the item bonuses you would be using the Spell's bonus most of the time, assuming you always become the best possible option. At level 20, that's +34 vs a fighter's +38. Using the second best form at level 20 is +31, which a druid beats with a +32. The reason they have this line in the battle forms is so that a level 20 character using a level 2 Animal Form spell isn't stuck with a +9 to hit.
Druids are still casters. The whole reason they are behind is because of that fact. Just because you can't cast spells in a battle form doesn't mean they can't cast spells before transforming, or outside of combat. Why would anyone want to be a fighter if they can just be a Druid instead? Lose 3 to hit but gain an entire spell list? That sounds like a pretty good trade off.
I haven't been comparing Druids to Fighters. Druid just lose (like everyone else).
A difference of 4 is crushing, and are you really suggesting that a level 20 fighter does not have a way to get a status bonus? In reality it is going to be a larger difference.
A difference of 2 to hit between a battle form and a standard martial is enough to make the battle form a very bad choice. That equates to a 20 to 40% decrease in damage output.
Rather the difference needs to be in the 0 to 1 range or it just doesn't work.
Someone who take a battle form is typically in it for the duration of the combat. Its all they are doing. They aren't activating items, they aren't casting spells
The utility abilites are nice. But just nice. There are other ways of getting extra speed/senses/reach and movement powers. Likewise a resistance bonus. Most of it is, as often than not, irrelevant. ALL the poison/bleed options come with a corresponding decrease in base damage. They are all balanced. They aren't anything additional. They are just options.
The martials have a lot of other abilities and maneuvers they can do which likely a druid can't. Also don't forget all the weapon specific things they can get. The differnces in AC and hit points. Even if the to hit numbers and damage are the same, the martial character is better off.
Wild Shape is supposed to be a combat form. It has to be up there in terms of to hit numbers or it just doesn't work.
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I haven't been comparing Druids to Fighters. Druid just lose (like everyone else).
Yes, and since a lot of people are I referenced it. I wasn't replying directly to you, only using that comment made to frame my arguments.
A difference of 4 is crushing, and are you really suggesting that a level 20 fighter does not have a way to get a status bonus? In reality it is going to be a larger difference.
A difference of 2 to hit between a battle form and a standard martial is enough to make the battle form a very bad...
Druids damage output is not based on strikes, even in a Battle form. They get a bunch of other options in the forms. For example, Dragon Form gives a breath weapon that uses your Spell DC for the save. The highest damage version is 11d6 in a 60ft line, and at level 8 gains +14 bonus damage. Monstrous Form has a Pheonix that has a 20ft fire aura that does automatic damage, while their strikes do fire and persistent fire.
Further more, the combat forms give a huge damage bonus on strikes, with Dragon Form giving +12 at level 15, which is about the same as a fighter, regardless of Strength.
Or how about the Purple Worm form making you unable to be immobilized, and automatically recovering from Paralyzed and Slowed and Stunned at the end of your turn?
Do you really think someone with all these abilities for free should be "on par" with a martial character?
I haven't been comparing Druids to Fighters. Druid just lose (like everyone else).Yes, and since a lot of people are I referenced it. I wasn't replying directly to you, only using that comment made to frame my arguments.
A difference of 4 is crushing, and are you really suggesting that a level 20 fighter does not have a way to get a status bonus? In reality it is going to be a larger difference.
A difference of 2 to hit between a battle form and a standard martial is enough to make the battle form a very bad...
Druids damage output is not based on strikes, even in a Battle form. They get a bunch of other options in the forms. For example, Dragon Form gives a breath weapon that uses your Spell DC for the save. The highest damage version is 11d6 in a 60ft line, and at level 8 gains +14 bonus damage. Monstrous Form has a Pheonix that has a 20ft fire aura that does automatic damage, while their strikes do fire and persistent fire.
Further more, the combat forms give a huge damage bonus on strikes, with Dragon Form giving +12 at level 15, which is about the same as a fighter, regardless of Strength.
Or how about the Purple Worm form making you unable to be immobilized, and automatically recovering from Paralyzed and Slowed and Stunned at the end of your turn?
Do you really think someone with all these abilities for free should be "on par" with a martial character?
Have you seen what a dragon barbarian does at those levels? He can have a breath weapon (outside the dragon form itself). Yes it uses a class DC, but that is every bit as good as a spell DC.
Yes the Purple worm and the Phoenix have some good abilities. But you are talking about very high levels there. Have you seen what martials do at those levels? EG Whirlwind Strike which comes in before both of those. Or Impossible Volley, or the extra/free actions they can get for various things from mid level.
You are still ignoring the major cost - the 2 actions it takes to get in to the WildShape form.
Its balanced fine.
I was doing some more research and found this spell, Primal Herd. This spell explicitly allows item bonuses. No other battle form spell has this wording, which leads me to the conclusion I have stated before:
Attacks granted by a Battle Form can not be modified by Item Bonuses (Unless stated otherwise in the specific effect).
I don't understand your argument here. Polymorph doesn't say anything about stopping you from applying item bonuses, instead it explicitly only allows circumstance, status, and penalties to adjust battle form special statistics.
Why would you allow strength or your proficiency bonus to adjust it in the case of Wild Shape, but not an item bonus, when none of them fall under the category of modifiers explicitly allowed by polymorph rules? That interpretation is inconsistent.
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Have you seen what a dragon barbarian does at those levels? He can have a breath weapon (outside the dragon form itself). Yes it uses a class DC, but that is every bit as good as a spell DC.
Yes, it's a once per combat ability, rather than once every 1d4 rounds.
Yes the Purple worm and the Phoenix have some good abilities. But you are talking about very high levels there. Have you seen what martials do at those levels? EG Whirlwind Strike which comes in before both of those. Or Impossible Volley, or the extra/free actions they can get for various things from mid level.
Yes Martial characters are great at martial things. Not so great at the spells like a Druid is. They get Legendary spell proficiency for a reason.
You are still ignoring the major cost - the 2 actions it takes to get in to the WildShape form.
Its balanced fine.
First, Wild Shape eventually lasts hours and at high levels, permanently. It is also a focus spell and you can easily regain that point.
Second, you seem to misunderstand my position. I am against the argument that Battle Forms need item bonuses to "keep up" with martial characters. Druids are spellcasters, not martial characters. Yes battle forms are a martial thing, but there are a myriad of other things available for a druid that they are better at rather than hitting things. They don't need the Item bonuses everyone wants them to have.
Here is my chart. Red means the bonus is worse than the granted modifier, Green means it's better. I also included a couple of Martials and the Cleric, so that you can contrast.
If we include the Item bonuses for Druids, they will almost always be better than the granted bonus, and if we take it away they will always be worse. But with the other classes, we can see that not even martials like Monk and Barbarian are as good off as Wild Shape with item bonuses, and they are basically equal until level 20 when the martials get their 4th bump to their main stat.
Without adding bonuses, Druids have better modifiers at low levels, but the spells eventually lap them. At max level they are just above the second highest modifier. It's one lower than a Druid in base form.
Druid progression is exactly the same as Clerics. Warpriests get a jump at 7 but Druids catch up at 11. Warpriests don't get Legendary spell DCs, but Cloistered and Druids do.
If you all want to be even more literal in the rules, battle forms only allow you to use your own "If it is higher". This means that even with Item bonuses, your modifier is only "higher" at level 4, assuming you're always going into the most powerful form. Only when you can use your own attack modifier will you be able to add the +2 Status, but since your modifier is never higher, you never get the +2 Status. But since this would lead players to always use a suboptimal form just for a small increase to hit, I will not get that strict on the wording.
And finally, a question for those who are pro item bonus: Why should a class get Legendary Spellcasting, and in combat keep up with Martial classes that don't even get Legendary in their respective class DCs? It would be too powerful, and quite unbalanced if you ask me.
Why would you allow strength or your proficiency bonus to adjust it in the case of Wild Shape, but not an item bonus, when none of them fall under the category of modifiers explicitly allowed by polymorph rules? That interpretation is inconsistent.
Please refer to CRB page 444 and read and understand the rules before coming back with that question again.
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I haven't been following this thread so this may already have been discussed, in which case I apologize.
If you're looking at how powerful Wild Shape is you also need to consider the Fighter who has Multiclassed into Druid as well as the druid. Lets just use Animal Form for simplicity.
The fighter has many less undefined abilities since it is crystal clear that their main benefit (+2 to hit over everybody else) DOES carry over. How much some of the open hand feats apply is far less clear. Does a shark have a hand :-)?
Now, this very obviously falls off at higher levels, but at level 4 through level 10 or so its a pretty good deal.
If the fighter can NOT add their item bonus, then they are at a +1 to hit from levels 4-9, even at level 10 (assuming the ftr gets his +2 rune at level 10).
If the item bonus DOES apply then they're always at a +2 over a fighter on their to hit. +4 vs every other martial.
In terms of damage, they're doing 4d8+9 vs 2d12+8. (the 4d8+9 assumes that weapon specialization does NOT apply to the wild shape, If it does then the damage difference becomes even greater).
They get all the other bonuses from wild shape (movement, scent, temporary hit points).
In exchange, they lose some AC (17 or 18+level vs a shield less fighters AC of 19 + level if the fighter is wearing +1 plate).
This AC difference increases by 3 more at level 11 which is one of the main reasons why this strategy is only really good for levels 4-10
Now, the damage requires room to grow into the larger forms but only the damage. The to hit remains the same if you take a Medium or Large form.
That is a LOT to get from 2 feats and having to bump up wisdom a little. I don't think that I'd build a Ftr to rely on Wild Shape, but its certainly a wonderful thing to have in your pocket for when the circumstances warrant it.
The 2 action set up cost hurts a little but only a little. Many classes take 1 round to really get set up and you can still either fire a bow/wildshape OR wildshape/get one attack depending on how the fight starts.
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Please refer to CRB page 444 and read and understand the rules before coming back with that question again.
I just checked, nothing on that page supports your position, so before being passive aggressive/condescending about my understanding of the rules maybe you should double check yourself.
Just to be clear, again, while using a battle form like Animal Form you do not add your proficiency bonus to your attack rolls because it is not a Circumstance Bonus, Status Bonus, or penalty. The Wild Shape Focus Spell allows you to use your attack modifier instead. Your argument is that item bonuses cannot be added to this because you are still considered to be using a Special Statistic per the Polymorph rules, and an item bonus isn't a circumstance/status/penalty. Simultaneously you think you do add your proficiency bonus despite that ALSO not being a Circumstance Bonus, Status Bonus, or penalty.
What exactly am I missing about your position here?