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I also have a third action which is raising a shield, so I'm not so sure if I should grab Thrash/Whirling Throw because they would be competing with my third action. Raising shield seems to be extremely important for survivability in my experience thus far.


An update, so I have managed to prone my foes and AOO them in the face on there way up. I am level 6 currently but I find myself rarely using Suplex. When would Suplex be the correct play? Like if I'm fighting below level enemies should I just focus on dealing damage or? Should I grab/trip enemies if they are same level or above? I am a controller for sure, but also deal the most DMG on the party simply because I am a Barbarian. A little help would be greatly appreciated.


So he would be chopping away at my antlers I guess, damn.


The Animal Barbarians antler gives it a reach of 10ft at level 7, if he grabs a medium size target from 10ft away can the target attack the barbarian with a non-reach weapon? Or can it's only action be to try to escape?


It still seems Suplex isn't that great? Because you have to have the enemy grappled in the first place, I've found that it's better to attack twice then attack then grapple. A lot of enemies don't last till the second round in my experience anyway. I could see Suplex being useful on the second round for sure, but first round doesn't appear very good. Another application for it where it would be good would be after strike/furious grab/suplex. Or Embrace the pain, then on your turn you can Suplex them with your first attack. Does this sound right?


If I Suplex an enemy successfully and then whirling throw them (rolling a normal success) would they land prone because they started out prone or would they land on there feet?


Would a Deer instinct at level 5 hit for 1D10+6 damage? Am I missing any bonuses?

And at level 7 would he be hitting for 1D12+9? Or are there any bonuses I am missing again?


Ugh, ya I think AOO is just too good (despite only being an animal instinct barbarian who doesn't hit incredibly hard) to give up for Animal Skin. I don't see a place for it, the AC bonus is nice for sure especially for a frontline wrestler, but it would have to replace either AOO at level 6, or Furious Bully at level 8, and I just don't think it's better than either one of those. It may be something I can afford to take at level 10 though certainly.


Gortle, I wanted to ask what would be a good starting stat array for a barbarian Animal instinct Wrestler, would it be:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8

Or would you swap Wis with Dex and get yourself 14 Wis?


Is there any way to change the damage type or give me a way to switch damage types on my Antlers to say B occasionally when needed? Some sort of item or magic that does that?


How much damage does an animal instincts (deer) punches do? I know the deers Antlers do D10 damage but what about there fists?


Can incorporeal creatures be grabbed?


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:


But Gortle, Crushing Grab kinda sucks in the game say like after level 8+ as the damage becomes a bit lackluster :( Do you like any of the other wrestler feats besides Combat Grab and Whirling Throw? Whirling Throw seems like it would be Incredibly difficult to execute on anything two sizes larger than you?

I like Crushing Grab because it is just free damage for something I will be doing a lot of, and Whirling Throw because occasionally it is very effective. There are pretty of reasonable feats here if you like the flavour. Mechanically nothing that really demands to be taken.

I only like Combat Grab for Fighters and normally I prefer to wrestle with other classes like Champions and Swashbucklers

Enlarge effects are not that difficult to get. I'm kind of keen on a Wild Shape Druid Wrestler and T-Rexes don't tend to run into things that are two size clases larger than them.

Interesting, I ended up building a Barbarian Animal Instinct Wrestler. Your right though at level 10 I'm torn between so many good feats (Thrash, Whirling Throw, Friendly Toss). I guess a third action ability like Thrash or Whirling Throw would be best? Prior to that we've got AOO at 6, Furious Bully at 8. Those are too good to be anything else :( This druid idea you have, could a suplexing T-Rex be a thing? What did you have in mind?


Just wondering if the Reach at level 7 would stack with Enlarge resulting in 15ft of reach?


Gortle wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
... Because wrestling are Athletic checks everyone can get Legendary proficiency in them and because they are again Reflex or Fortitude DC they are typically against a lower defence than AC. Fighters don't have an advantage here...
The clincher is that many of the Wrestler Archetype's moves are not Athletics checks, but are Unarmed Strikes with a wrestling move rider à la Combat Grab. For those, the Fighter's greater accuracy is a benefit, particularly for a routine like: Grab (Athletics check, no MAP) then Suplex (Unarmed strike w/ MAP vs Flat-Footed).
I mean yes Suplex is an attack. Another in Wrestler is Aerial Piledriver. If that is what you want to do then go for it. But you already have the enemy grappled so you are under MAP, and you let go of the target when you do, so if you fail the roll your enemy is not prone and not flat footed to anyone else. Personally it sounds cool, it just seems like you have added a 60% failure chance to what you have already done ie grappled them. I just don't think its a good tactic just a fun one. I'd rather just strike.

I mean we are talking about the wrestler archetype. If you don't want to suplex or areal piledriver enemies... you probably wouldn't pick that archetype.

And it's not just Suplex and piledriver that require Unarmed strikes. Running tackle, elbow breaker and strangle do as well.
It's only a couple that require Athletics checks

I am here for the Athletics checks. I like Wrestler for Whirling Throw and Crushing Grab. The others not so much. Yes Suplex and Aerial Piledriver are good on the following turn. It is just that not all opponents get a following turn, and I may really want to prolong the grab. It really depends what I'm doing with the rest of the build.

But Gortle, Crushing Grab kinda sucks in the game say like after level 8+ as the damage becomes a bit lackluster :( Do you like any of the other wrestler feats besides Combat Grab and Whirling Throw? Whirling Throw seems like it would be Incredibly difficult to execute on anything two sizes larger than you?


Wheldrake wrote:
Best way to let your barbarian use scrolls and wands is not using TMI, it's spending a class feat on an MC spellcaster archetype (assuming you have a 14 INT, CHA or WIS).

Don't have the spare feats, grappler build. With no spellcasters I just plan to prebuff before entering battles never during combat.


Good to know thanks guys, yes the plan was to use something like Enlarge and Heroism prebattle.


Could I use a wand of Enlarge with trick magic item? Or a scroll of enlarge for example? I'm not too familiar with potions can you buy a potion of enlarge?

Or could I just get Arcana as a skill and use Identify Magic to know what the scroll is and just use it just before battle to prebuff?


Hehe yes, I was contemplating Godless Healing or Risky Surgery, which one do you guys think is better? I'm assuming you can do Risky Surgery on yourself?


Interesting, thanks guys. I was thinking Godless Healing so I can heal myself more lol


We have a champion in the group who uses his LoH every ten mins outside of combat to heal us to full after combats. Do I as a Barbarian need to take Continual Recovery at this point or can I pick up a different skill feat?


Thanks, can anyone provide me some advice for utilizing my free hands if I can just grapple with my Antlers. I will definitely use one of my hands for a wooden shield. Keep the other one empty to grab a potion if needed?


Would these be considered magical versus any enemy that resists all damage except magical?


could I slap some Hand wraps of Mighty Blows on my Antlers? Or affix a talisman to my Antlers like a potency crystal?


So I've got a orc barbarian animal instinct Deer. Would I be able to grab Iron Fists or Tusks and apply it to my Antlers? I mean are these literal antlers sticking out of my head or is this flavor?


Hi all, sorry for the basic question I have never played martial character before and am looking to play one next week. I will be wearing Full Plate and noticed it said -10 ft penalty to speed, does that mean I go from 20 ft base to 10ft? This sounds harsh and paralyzing.


One other question in regards to Castdown, if using the single action harm spell (touch range) then using Cast Down that would count as 2 actions correct? Or is the Harm a part of the Cast Down action and only costs 1 action total?


And in your opinion guys is this feat any good? Or am I better off with a different level 10 feat?


Hello all, just wondering what "instead of the usual effects" means. What are the usual effects of a grapple if you already have a creature grabbed. My other question is this a good feat or just some cool flavor thing like Aerial Piledriver that sounds good but isn't worth spending a class feat on.

Spinebreaker
You squeeze your opponent in a vicious bear hug, putting intense pressure on their nerves, joints, or other pain points. Attempt an Athletics check to Grapple the creature you have grabbed or restrained, with the following effects instead of the usual effects.

Critical Success The target is clumsy 2 until the end of its next turn and clumsy 1 for 1 minute.
Success The target is clumsy 1 until the end of its next turn.
PFS Standard
Inescapable Grasp


This wrestler seems to be more fun then the pure gymnast swash who deals pitiful damage. I thought about FoB via multitalented instead of Thrash at 10, but like it was said earlier FoB is a big time MAP accelerator and wouldn't really be great for this kind of character. I guess Human with adopted into Elf might be still good here getting Shield Cantrip and then Otherworldly Acumen at 9 to get Enlarge once a day. Does anyone recommend any other race? Adopted Halfling is appealing for the Luck feats but is it better then Shield (unlimited times a day) + Enlarge (once per day)? Not sold on Orc for bloody blows since it only applies to crits and an extra 1D4 persistent so doesn't kick in till the end of the round which means monster may be dead by then anyways.


Ya very good points Sanity. Thrash seems to be worthwhile. Reevaluating it seems until level 12 I should be taking AOO above Brutal Bully at level 6 due to having reach via Deer. Then at 12 grab Embrace the Pain and retrain AOO for Animal Skin.


Ugh Thrash does require a fort save for half damage. I see why it's not a must have feat.


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

If you're going barbarian, you're better off with Brutal Bully than with Crushing Grab. Of course, you *can* take both.

Also, if you're going with the Barbarian chassis, don't sleep on Thrash. MAPless damage is useful.

Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?

Yes Furious Bully is the best option and one of the absolute top tier feats in the game. But this is the difficulty with the Animal Barbarian.

At level 6 you want Animal Skin, Attack of Opportunity, Brutal Bully

At level 8 you want Furious Bully, there is also some nice to haves like Friendly Toss and Renewed Vigor.

At level 10 there are so OK feats but nothing you must have.

At level 12 you want Embrace the Pain. You could take Furious Grab too but I like to restrain.

You can't take everything. What do you trim out?

I was thinking

2- Wrestler
4- Suplex
6- Brutal Bully
8- Furious Bully
10- Thrash
12- Embrace the Pain or Furious Grab

The biggest problem is level 8, it's either Whirling throw or Furious Bully :( I guess at level 12 if going Furious Grab we can just retrain Furious Bully and go Whirling Throw. What is the benefit of Animal Skin vs just throwing on some armor?


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?

Brutal Bully is the equivalent to Crushign Grasp - it does the same thign, but requires you to be in rage, and applies it to more maneuvers than just grab... but they stack.

Furious Bully gives you a nice, beefy circumstance bonus to do these things, and is *also* good.

I've just noticed, though... there's another path for the barbarian. Consider Furious Grab. If you really like the Wrestler moves, and you'd rather focus on attacks vs AC instead of athletics checks, then Furious Grab will let you skip those rolls entirely, which means that you have basically no reason to reach for Brutal Bully, Crushing Grasp, or Furious Bully. At that point, all you care about off of Barbarian is Furious Grab, Thrash, and (when you get high enough) Collateral Thrash.

...though, given that it only really kicks in at level 12, you might consider starting out with a different plan and then retraining into that one.

This is a very good point, good find! Yes I think at level 12 retraining for this is a great way to go. Will give me more feats for other things. But isn't it typically harder to hit someone's AC rather than an athletics check to grab? Though I would think a barbarians first attack would have a good enough attack bonus to be successfully pretty often?


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

My question for you is why do you expect that there is only one true path?

Both builds are valid. Choose the flavour you like.

Animal Barbarian works fine. It is nice in that you have your hands free. The Rage is a good damage add so you have good offensive value.

Indeed my man, that is the struggle, I am stuck thinking there is only one path. While the swash is God mode for Manuevers post level 10, he seems pretty lackluster as a pure wrestler prior to that. The barbarian does have solid wrestling feats like the ones mentioned in previous posts, plus a serious ability to bring the pain. I think that would be a lot more fun then just grab/trip every round, every fight. Which animal instinct do you like for the barbarian wrestler?


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

If you're going barbarian, you're better off with Brutal Bully than with Crushing Grab. Of course, you *can* take both.

Also, if you're going with the Barbarian chassis, don't sleep on Thrash. MAPless damage is useful.

Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Agreed, you mentioned Crushing Grab what level would you train out of this?...
If you are grappling almost every round then Crushing Grab is +3 to +7 damage fairly often. Yes at high level that is not all that much. When you retrain you get to pick another feat of that level. So what are you replacing it with? I don't know that is very build specific. I'm not sure I would.

Later on I could see replacing the Crushing Grab that you mentioned with Clinching Strike as a Barbarian does hit hard. Probably not with a Swashbuckler though.


I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?


Gortle wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
... Because wrestling are Athletic checks everyone can get Legendary proficiency in them and because they are again Reflex or Fortitude DC they are typically against a lower defence than AC. Fighters don't have an advantage here...
The clincher is that many of the Wrestler Archetype's moves are not Athletics checks, but are Unarmed Strikes with a wrestling move rider à la Combat Grab. For those, the Fighter's greater accuracy is a benefit, particularly for a routine like: Grab (Athletics check, no MAP) then Suplex (Unarmed strike w/ MAP vs Flat-Footed).
I mean yes Suplex is an attack. Another in Wrestler is Aerial Piledriver. If that is what you want to do then go for it. But you already have the enemy grappled so you are under MAP, and you let go of the target when you do, so if you fail the roll your enemy is not prone and not flat footed to anyone else. Personally it sounds cool, it just seems like you have added a 60% failure chance to what you have already done ie grappled them. I just don't think its a good tactic just a fun one. I'd rather just strike.

I mean we are talking about the wrestler archetype. If you don't want to suplex or areal piledriver enemies... you probably wouldn't pick that archetype.

And it's not just Suplex and piledriver that require Unarmed strikes. Running tackle, elbow breaker and strangle do as well.
It's only a couple that require Athletics checks

I am here for the Athletics checks. I like Wrestler for Whirling Throw and Crushing Grab. The others not so much. Yes Suplex and Aerial Piledriver are good on the following turn. It is just that not all opponents get a following turn, and I may really want to prolong the grab. It really depends what I'm doing with the rest of the build.

Agreed, you mentioned Crushing Grab what level would you train out of this? because after awhile the damage is pretty insignificant no? Also would you recommend getting a reaction for the Wrestler and if so what would you go with? I don't see Clinch Strike as being too powerful in the hands of a D6 hitter, or is possible to go without a reaction?


Hello friends, I have a question. Anyone know of any reactions that allow you to grab someone? This is different from things like Clinch Strike that merely let you attack them, I'm hoping for a way to be able to grab someone as a reaction.


Gortle wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
... Because wrestling are Athletic checks everyone can get Legendary proficiency in them and because they are again Reflex or Fortitude DC they are typically against a lower defence than AC. Fighters don't have an advantage here...
The clincher is that many of the Wrestler Archetype's moves are not Athletics checks, but are Unarmed Strikes with a wrestling move rider à la Combat Grab. For those, the Fighter's greater accuracy is a benefit, particularly for a routine like: Grab (Athletics check, no MAP) then Suplex (Unarmed strike w/ MAP vs Flat-Footed).
I mean yes Suplex is an attack. Another in Wrestler is Aerial Piledriver. If that is what you want to do then go for it. But you already have the enemy grappled so you are under MAP, and you let go of the target when you do, so if you fail the roll your enemy is not prone and not flat footed to anyone else. Personally it sounds cool, it just seems like you have added a 60% failure chance to what you have already done ie grappled them. I just don't think its a good tactic just a fun one. I'd rather just strike.

I mean we are talking about the wrestler archetype. If you don't want to suplex or areal piledriver enemies... you probably wouldn't pick that archetype.

And it's not just Suplex and piledriver that require Unarmed strikes. Running tackle, elbow breaker and strangle do as well.
It's only a couple that require Athletics checks

I am here for the Athletics checks. I like Wrestler for Whirling Throw and Crushing Grab. The others not so much. Yes Suplex and Aerial Piledriver are good on the following turn. It is just that not all opponents get a following turn, and I may really want to prolong the grab. It really depends what I'm doing with the rest of the build.

The Whirling Throw athletics check would not benefit from Derring-Do correct?


Gortle wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
... Because wrestling are Athletic checks everyone can get Legendary proficiency in them and because they are again Reflex or Fortitude DC they are typically against a lower defence than AC. Fighters don't have an advantage here...
The clincher is that many of the Wrestler Archetype's moves are not Athletics checks, but are Unarmed Strikes with a wrestling move rider à la Combat Grab. For those, the Fighter's greater accuracy is a benefit, particularly for a routine like: Grab (Athletics check, no MAP) then Suplex (Unarmed strike w/ MAP vs Flat-Footed).
I mean yes Suplex is an attack. Another in Wrestler is Aerial Piledriver. If that is what you want to do then go for it. But you already have the enemy grappled so you are under MAP, and you let go of the target when you do, so if you fail the roll your enemy is not prone and not flat footed to anyone else. Personally it sounds cool, it just seems like you have added a 60% failure chance to what you have already down ie grappled them. I just don't think its a good tactic just a fun one. I'd rather just strike.

I agree it sounds cool piledriving guys, but really how effective is it? I mean a small amount of damage with the chance to prone if all rolls well and you don't get a reroll since it's not an athletics check :( Just tripping or Grappling the enemy mechanically seems to be the best play, and these Suplexes and Piledrivers just sound like exactly what you said "fun" but that's about it.


Gortle wrote:

I don't actually like a Fighter as a grappler. Fighters are better at hitting things. If you are grabbing things, then your +2 to hit is just not coming into play. This is inherently weaker than say a Champion who still gets their better defences or a Monk who still can get their extra action from flurry.

Because wrestling are Athletic checks everyone can get Legendary proficiency in them and because they are again Reflex or Fortitude DC they are typically against a lower defence than AC. Fighters don't have an advantage here.

Also why are you grappling? Are you doing it to setup flat footed for your allies? Are you doing it to stop that enemy from attacking anyone else?

Are you just trying to waste/control your enemies actions - in which case probably restrained is what you are really aiming for?

The problem with Combat Grab is that it has the press trait, which means that you must be under a Multiple Attack Penalty to use it. Which means you are at -4 or -5 to hit. I mean it is a good feat that I would take, but if grappling is you main schtick you have already failed once before it gets to be used. It also has no chance of a critical success and inflicting restrained on your enemy. Anyway if you are going Wrestler it is in the archetype so you don't want to go Fighter as well.

What I'm trying to say is if what you want to do is pin down your foes as your main plan, then you are better off conceptually as a defender type character ie Monk or Champion or maybe Outwit Ranger.

If what you want to do is have another option to use in combat then a Fighter or Barbarian or Ranger or Ruffian Rogue makes sense as a base for a Wrestler. Pretty much any Strength based character.

Gymnast Swashbuckler is fine as a dedicated wrestler but there is such a step change in effectiveness at level 10 with Derring Do, it is quite jarring.

Good points, ya at level 10 the Swashbuckler turns into a God (Hulk Hogan in his prime if you will).


Candlejake wrote:

While Monk sounds like a no brainer for Wrestler, i think fighter might be the best fit for the archetype. Most of the Maneuvers that Wrestler gives do not require an Athletics check, but an unarmed strike. And fighter gets the best bonuses here.

Monks FoB doesnt work that well with the archetype, since generally youll want to do "Grab -> wrestler action" so there isnt really space for two attacks that advance MAP. mixed Maneuver and Flurry of Maneuvers are nice to get a grapple off, but both advance the MAP quite a bit.
Dont get me wrong, i love the monk class but it actualy doesnt seem to mesh that well with wrestler.

Barbarian is another option They also get some grab related feats and are bulky but fighter again beats them just for unarmed proficiency.

I also like swashbuckler, derring do is great for getting that grab off, but after that its back to unarmed strikes. Also derring do comes online somewhat late.

I'd say Grab an ancestry that Upgrades your unarmed strikes to at least a d6, or gives some d8 options (i like lizardfolk for that) and go for the fighter

Very interesting, you are correct that a lot of the Wrestlers moves are unarmed strikes and Derring-Do comes on late. Early game certainly the Fighter would be superior. But perhaps level 10 onwards the Swash would reign supreme?


Good catch! Lol


Thank you! Do you know if Otherworldly Magic (level 1) would qualify as the prerequisite for Otherworldly Acumen?


How useful would Enlarge be on a wrestler character once a day? Is being Large size a big enough advantage that it's worth switching adopted ancestry from Halfling to Elf for otherworldly Acumen? Or is Clumsy 1 too much of a disadvantage?


Gotcha!


Not Padded?


And what type of armor does this 18 Dex wrestler wear to start?

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