This. :)I suspect he's actually twitching about the concept that you can't do outer planar adventures without having deity stats.Oh, that's just mean - I can't even begin to guess which of the many options you're twitching about :)
I've run games where PCs had to interact with gods or ancient primal forces of evil. Stats weren't involved. One adventure required the retrieval of a soul from the underworld - with the assumption that Hades and Cerberus are unkillable. (My notes actually said, "Cerberus will f-ing kill you. Don't attack him.")
Another fun thing would be stats of deities before they became deities, like Cayden Caileans stats (/his build) when he entered the Starstone test
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Did 3.5 ever stat the Gods?
Yes, there are stats at several Splat Books (Complete Divine, Deities and Demigods etc.) and it was the worst decision they made ever.
Then as soon as something has stats player will try to find ways to kill/overcome/or otherwise deal with it."Look I rolled a 20 at Bluff, including my boni it's a 64, God X only rolled a 63 in sense motive... I lied to a god and he believes it!!!!!"
So please, no stats for gods!
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Take a look at Sandpoint, quaint town of 1250 souls, unable to defend itself from goblins. [in theory, the actual math works out differently]. Look how many NPCs are above that 5th level threshold.
Oddly, look at the basic math from DMG, and it suggests that the highest level person in Sandpoint should be 2nd level, which DOES coincide.
So the official Pathfinder answer is "yes to both". I can easily (and have) made a top-down analysis of Sandpoint, and plugged the NPCs back into the lower slots WITHOUT THE PCs NOTICING A DIFFERENCE. Players notice the flavor of NPCs more than the crunchy bits.
I have also run an abortive attempt through Runelords running the NPCs as they are in the Gazeteer. "All these NPCs are so spiffy. We'll never be that great..."
So, as with the answer to many other Pathfinder questions, is this: "There is a broad spectrum of possibilities; find what works for you and your group."
You can't have it both ways in the same world, you have to rule one way or the other. A 5th level small-town hero would be world famous, unless the world is full of 5th level heroes. Either a 6th level toon is superhuman, or it's ordinary.
If it's "both" then the setting is dramatically inconsistent without houseruling.
Did 3.5 ever stat the Gods?
Yes, there are stats at several Splat Books (Complete Divine, Deities and Demigods etc.) and it was the worst decision they made ever.
Then as soon as something has stats player will try to find ways to kill/overcome/or otherwise deal with it."Look I rolled a 20 at Bluff, including my boni it's a 64, God X only rolled a 63 in sense motive... I lied to a god and he believes it!!!!!"
So please, no stats for gods!
Examples like this are cases of cognitive dissonance with regard to the rules. PCs at level 20 should effectively be demigods themselves. Mere humans in mythology have been known to defeat gods/demigods in various ways. A level 20 should certainly be able to, barring mechanics that make it an outright impossibility.
People love to say say "that should never happen" when the reality is, your own character is a badass beyond your comprehension, yes it should.
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Did 3.5 ever stat the Gods?
Yes, there are stats at several Splat Books (Complete Divine, Deities and Demigods etc.) and it was the worst decision they made ever.
Then as soon as something has stats player will try to find ways to kill/overcome/or otherwise deal with it."Look I rolled a 20 at Bluff, including my boni it's a 64, God X only rolled a 63 in sense motive... I lied to a god and he believes it!!!!!"
So please, no stats for gods!
Complete Divine didn't stat the gods, it lists them at their power levels, gives their alignment, description, portfolio and domains. That's about it.
Deities and Demigods does stat out the gods but it was a far cry from a list of gods to kill. On top of weakest god being about 30HD and the strongest going up to 60+HD they also had fantastical powers associated with their portfolios and domains as well as a mechanic referred to as "Divine Rank" that allowed for the purchase of special abilities beyond the ken of mere mortals.
Basically, your characters weren't a threat to the gods unless they, themselves, ascended to godhood.
I always thought that it was a fantastic basis for high-level play (alternate advancement systems) and more of the ideas in there should have been incorporated into the giant mess that was the Epic Level Handbook.
(By the way, your example simply couldn't happen by the standards of the Deities and Demigods book. Although I do get your point, you're using an argument that just doesn't wash.)
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A note about Mythic level play: I've seen lots of folks worry that post 20th level play (something I've been calling "Mythic levels") would basically just be a bunch of impossible to defeat overpowered PCs who never meet anything that challenges them. Let me be clear—that is NOT what I envision these rules would be for. The types of stories I'd want to be able to tell (in the form of adventures) that would require Mythic level rules would be things like, "Go into the Abyss and defeat the demon lord," or "Face off against the ten-thousand-strong orc army with only you and your three friends," or "Create a new world for your followers to live on and then defend it from horrific things that want to destroy it," or "Go to the outer planes and work directly for the deities themselves," or "Take the test of the Starstone to become a demigod" and so on. Could you do these story lines withe the current rules? Sure... but it'd feel weird and be kinda awkward and in some cases would require some new rules support. Would these stories not challenge PCs? Not if they were done right.
"Go into the Abyss and defeat the demon lord"
Done pretty well in Savage Tide...an AP written for 1-20. No need for "mythic"."Face off against the ten-thousand-strong orc army with only you and your three friends,"
By the time you're 20th level, this should be fairly easy. Don't need for "mythic".
"Create a new world for your followers to live on and then defend it from horrific things that want to destroy it"
Aside from the creating a new world bit, that's what the characters have likely been doing since they got into the teens.
"Go to the outer planes and work directly for the deities themselves"
You can do this well before 20th level.
"Take the test of the Starstone to become a demigod"
If you can take it drunk and still pass, I don't see being "mythic" being an absolute requirement.
"Go into the Abyss and defeat the demon lord"
Done pretty well in Savage Tide...an AP written for 1-20. No need for "mythic"."Face off against the ten-thousand-strong orc army with only you and your three friends,"
By the time you're 20th level, this should be fairly easy. Don't need for "mythic"."Create a new world for your followers to live on and then defend it from horrific things that want to destroy it"
Aside from the creating a new world bit, that's what the characters have likely been doing since they got into the teens."Go to the outer planes and work directly for the deities themselves"
You can do this well before 20th level."Take the test of the Starstone to become a demigod"
If you can take it drunk and still pass, I don't see being "mythic" being an absolute requirement.
Kthulhu, I agree with all your points. Level 20 is as high as I think my group will ever need to go. By level 10-14 you should already have the attention of the Gods and most likely be working for them to earn your right to take the Starstone test to become one of them. You will likely be caught in the middle of their political games as well. After you join them as a God the rules become much more about Social Interactions as a God and MUCH LESS about actual combat as you will never die. And your Godlike powers will be ridiculous compared to mere mortals. Thus you can go very rules light from that point on. Probably never need to open a rulebook again while you are playing a God.
For those who do favor started deities, many, many such stat-blocks be found with a little Google-fu, either using the rules from 3es D&Dg or, more commonly, systems derived from those rules for use in 3.5 and Pathfinder.
The Dicefreaks forums and the D&D Wiki are a good jumping off point for the curios or depraved when it comes to systems for building, playing, or fighting demigods-overgods.
Creative Director
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"Go into the Abyss and defeat the demon lord"
Done pretty well in Savage Tide...an AP written for 1-20. No need for "mythic"."Face off against the ten-thousand-strong orc army with only you and your three friends,"
By the time you're 20th level, this should be fairly easy. Don't need for "mythic"."Create a new world for your followers to live on and then defend it from horrific things that want to destroy it"
Aside from the creating a new world bit, that's what the characters have likely been doing since they got into the teens."Go to the outer planes and work directly for the deities themselves"
You can do this well before 20th level."Take the test of the Starstone to become a demigod"
If you can take it drunk and still pass, I don't see being "mythic" being an absolute requirement.
Those are all correct observations, but you completely missed my point, which was until I know if we're doing Mythic rules, I don't want to "use up" those stories, since while you obviously CAN do them with 1st to 20th level, they're also obvious stories to tell with Mythic rules.
It's not the lack of Mythic rules that makes me hesitant to detail those adventures at all.
It's not knowing IF we're going to do the rules.
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Are you talking about Arazni, wasn't she a demi-god?The only Pathfinder God that has been listed as "dead" is from the Golarion campaign setting and it is not known what killed him or if he is truly dead.That is not true. A lich killed a deity. The specifics of it are not mentioned so he may have found some artifact that weakened the god first. The specifics are up to the individual GM at the moment.
Sorry about being so late. I have not been online as much as usual.
I thought she was a full deity which is why the Mantis God was created. I would have to check, but since it has been about 3 days I guess once I scroll down someone will have corrected one us by then.
One way to do it is have a a powerful mage/wizard NPC join the party and trap the god in a host, if your plan is to kill the god.
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Fair point. And the GM, er, I mean Gods, could always roll a 1. :PTo be fair, consider Cayden Cailean, who sorta drunk-stumbled into divinity. If a drunkard can stumble through the Test of the Starstone while on a bet, I'd wager that a level 20 party probably could, as well. Moreover, I'd bet a set of juiced up 20s could then proceed to do a whole heck of a lot, assuming they don't splinter.Even if a party tried to take on a god, with a being that could write an entire planet, I'm sure unwriting a group of four or five level 20s wouldn't be too difficult.Haven't some of the Gods been killed? How did that happen?I'm pretty sure not by the hands of a level 20 party.
if you stat a god with Deities and demigods, a 1 is not an instant failure for a god.
The only working diety system with stats (in my opinion) was the D&D set of rules called wrath of the immortals.
It explained several rules and stats of gods and explained that gods although possessing stats were infinitively more powerful then even the strongest mortal.
A god with stats of 1 on every ability was still way more powerfull then any mortal even if they would have had 25 on every stat.
Gods were virtually untouchable for mere mortal weapons unless those weapons were of the +5 enchantment (if they managed to hit the god, they'd do minimum damage only) or artifact weapons (artifact although powerfull had major drawbacks). Any god had acces to any spell known and could not be interupted while casting. So if a god wanted to make a point it would simply cast a heal every round.
An immortal could simply combat mortals with his aura, without even lifting a finger.
Mortal magic was unable to harm any god (although they could accept beneficial magic from a mortal at will), as only immortal magic might affect them. And effects like death or stoning would simply be more like a slow or weak paralysis to them.
Stats had different meaning to immortals as the stats told them what they were capable of doing.
Strenght was the only exception as that was still affecting the carrying capacity and damage.
Dexterity was their armor class and only magic enhancement added to their ac (so a leather armor of +2 was better then a full plate +1).
Intelligence was the number of plots an immortal was able to juggle at once (plotting was the way to immortal xp/power).
Wisdom affected the aura and power of the aura of an immortal.
Constitution affected the number off rounds an immortal has before an immortal poison affected them (mortal poisons never affected an immortal).
Charisma affect the reaction of NPC's, the number of retainers an immortal has and their morale.
So the concept of giving immortals stats like mortals is a failed concept as immortals are far removed from the frailty of a mere mortal. Immortals are able to lower/boost the saving throws of a mortal, but will rarely do that as they would have to spend temporary power (from their daily alotment) and it's unlikely immortals will spend that much interest in a single mortal. And immortals have made rules that basically forbid them to direct violently interact with mortals. Off course if attacked by a mortal an immortal may defend himself, but it's more likely for the immortal to simply ignore the mortal and leave, then to actually act directly and the reason is pretty simple. Would you be interested in the attack of a single ant??? Because that's a fair comparison of the difference in power, between a mortal and an immortal. It's more likely the immortal will spend more time thinking of all the different ways he can annihilate the mortal then it takes the mortal to hit and maybe damage the immortal.
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"Go into the Abyss and defeat the demon lord"
Done pretty well in Savage Tide...an AP written for 1-20. No need for "mythic"."Face off against the ten-thousand-strong orc army with only you and your three friends,"
By the time you're 20th level, this should be fairly easy. Don't need for "mythic"."Create a new world for your followers to live on and then defend it from horrific things that want to destroy it"
Aside from the creating a new world bit, that's what the characters have likely been doing since they got into the teens."Go to the outer planes and work directly for the deities themselves"
You can do this well before 20th level."Take the test of the Starstone to become a demigod"
If you can take it drunk and still pass, I don't see being "mythic" being an absolute requirement.Those are all correct observations, but you completely missed my point, which was until I know if we're doing Mythic rules, I don't want to "use up" those stories, since while you obviously CAN do them with 1st to 20th level, they're also obvious stories to tell with Mythic rules.
It's not the lack of Mythic rules that makes me hesitant to detail those adventures at all.
It's not knowing IF we're going to do the rules.
I am curious what your take is on this issue now that Mythic Adventures (2013) and Mythic Origins (2013) have been released.
Last year at GenCon (2016), I spoke with John Compton specifically about expanding PFS to level 20 content, and he seemed very hesitant to go even that high. However, it does seem in light of new retirement arcs such as All for Immortality that the max level in PFS is indeed increasing, yet slowly.
Any new thoughts?
EDIT: I originally found this thread in a search for "Yog-Sothoth." I readily admit that I jumped immediately to PFS, which is informed by Pathfinder RPG. I suppose to make my question more Pathfinder general, I'll just ask: What do you see as far as deity-player interaction in Pathfinder canon now that Mythic books have been released?
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It would still be really cool to stat them and then slay them! YES! We used to love our Dieties and Demi-Gods book back in the day.
Btw, what is the 3.5 book that stated the Gods?
technically, the Deities and Demigods book was 3.0, it was never updated.
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Fair point. And the GM, er, I mean Gods, could always roll a 1. :PTo be fair, consider Cayden Cailean, who sorta drunk-stumbled into divinity. If a drunkard can stumble through the Test of the Starstone while on a bet, I'd wager that a level 20 party probably could, as well. Moreover, I'd bet a set of juiced up 20s could then proceed to do a whole heck of a lot, assuming they don't splinter.Even if a party tried to take on a god, with a being that could write an entire planet, I'm sure unwriting a group of four or five level 20s wouldn't be too difficult.Haven't some of the Gods been killed? How did that happen?I'm pretty sure not by the hands of a level 20 party.
Fun fact, I was reading through my copy of Deities & Demigods recently and in the section explaining the stats for gods, they have a rule that gods are always assumed to have rolled a 20; attacks, saves, skills. They don't auto-succeed/auto-crit, you still need to roll for that purpose, but they don't fumble and their roll is always treated as max value.
Edit: I really need to learn to look at the dates on the posts I quote, and to read through the thread to make sure that hasn't already been addressed.
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Get a character sheet, and write a sideways eight in every space. That's a god's stat block.
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Since this thread has been resurrected, there might be a way to kill certain gods before they became gods, such as Cayden and Iomedae.
If you have a party that's hell-bent on killing a god, send them on a quest to search for the Scepter of Ages. By making the history check, they could technically go back in time before Iomedae, or Cayden and others, was a deity; say when she was just a babe in a crib. They could easily kill her then.
Of course, this opens things up to all sorts of bamboozlery. If there were a plot to kill a god, would said god know about it? Could they also travel back in time to protect their non-deific self? Killing them before they became a deity would have some serious repercussions on the future to be sure.
But that's the only way I could think of for players to feasibly kill a deity without outside help.
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Yeah... If it were up to the consensus of the average player to make a statblock for a deity, I think I'll pass and just settle for statless ones. Can't say I'm interested in triple digit+ ability scores and modifiers.
I mean, personally I'd be satisfied with level 60-100 gestalt builds, each one with 20 levels in the major divine classes gestalted with classes that matched that deity's specific theme.
That's if I were interested in statting out the gods which I'm not; I do genuinely believe statless is the best way to go because keeping them undefined from a narrative perspective just gives you the most options. They do what you need them to do, no more, no less.
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How strong gods have to be depends on the setting:
Shouldn't be statted in PF:
-gods could be abstract manifestations of cosmic forces
-gods could be primordial beings, that created universes, planet, seas(Golarion)
Should be statted in PF:
-gods could be like in Greek mythology/D&D 3.0, powerful but beatable by the strongest heroes(Elric Saga)
-gods could be powered by worship, meaning there could be some pretty weak gods, if they lack a large following(Fritz Leiber's Lankmar stories)
-some primitive settings could consider nearly every monster over CR 6 a deity
One problem with Pathfinder statting out gods is that the stats(aside of magical powers, immunities etc. ) follow a linear scale.
This makes it pretty hard to put more epic stuff like busting mountains into a their stat block.
The best way to kill a God is to find the right macguffin.
There's a macguffin for everything.
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A partial approach to literally assigning Serenrae an AC is giving more attention to what they can do in a big picture sense.
For example, if someone recreates Earthfall and the PCs fail to stop it can the gods stop it? Golarion has very little in print about what the gods' politics are and what they can (and can't) do in practical terms to achieve their goals.
If you're running Rise of the Runelords and it looks like Karzoug is going to awaken and rebuild Thassilon, the gods are assumed not to directly intervene. This means either (a) they don't care, (b) they can't stop/aid him, or (c) both.
(A) isn't terribly plausible. If Serenrae is NG she should care that a lot of people are going to suffer if the BBEG's plan comes to fruition. If Gorum loves massive wars he should care if the BBEG is proposing to start one. The idea that the gods are indifferent as to how life proceeds on Golarion is an option, but it tends to undercut clerics as reasonable character options.
(B) is equally problematic. Whatever powers Serenrae (or whoever) has personally, the Bestiaries are full of outsider servants who could reshape the mortal world in dramatic ways. Why not send them? Divine cold wars are popular, the gods have all agreed not to act directly for fear of laying waste to the world etc... etc... But what about Cheliax? What about the Worldwound? Asmodeus lent a human faction a bunch of devils and took over a nation. The Abyss is literally spewing hordes of demons out into Golarion on a semi regular basis. How is that consistent with divine arms control?
I'd much rather see some sort of cannon discussion of what the gods' politics look like and what controls when they do or don't intervene.
The answer here has been given by paizo before, they're not going to explain what the divine rules are because it gives them more narritive room to work with.
I have zero interest in PCs or even NPCs killing off any gods, but I was always a fan of earlier editions breaking the gods into relative power categories (e.g., Greater, Intermediate, Lesser, Demi-, and even hero-deity > quasi-deity). Why? B/c if, for plot reasons, I wanted god or goddess A to slay or take on god or goddess B, I would have ways to figure out how plausible that was.
I don't need a specific Divine Rank 1-20 scheme; that might be tedious for Paizo to put together. But I would really, really like if they broke them into tiers like the above.
Recently in a campaign the players had to decide whether to kill a god or not. We were playing E8.
Long-story short, an elemental god had been imprisoned in a near-death like state. She was imprisoned in a small demi-plane, where an elder-god had been imprisoned with her. The elemental god was badly wounded, and the elder-god was feeding off her life-force for all eternity.
The players had acquired a dagger that was an artifact created by a god, which was the weapon originally used to wound the elemental god. Any being killed by the dagger experienced a true death, a destruction of its soul that was irreparable. The players were faced with a choice: use the dagger to kill the god, or use it to free her from the elder-god. The choice had ramifications because the religion on the mortal plane had become fragmented, either choice would lead to a unification, but under a different god.
I didn't stat out either the elemental god or the elder-god. If the dagger was used, they died. If they tried some other method, the players would fail, possibly die.
Killing a god should be possible, but it should be a matter of story.
If you're running Rise of the Runelords and it looks like Karzoug is going to awaken and rebuild Thassilon, the gods are assumed not to directly intervene. This means either (a) they don't care, (b) they can't stop/aid him, or (c) both.(A) isn't terribly plausible. If Serenrae is NG she should care that a lot of people are going to suffer if the BBEG's plan comes to fruition. If Gorum loves massive wars he should care if the BBEG is proposing to start one. The idea that the gods are indifferent as to how life proceeds on Golarion is an option, but it tends to undercut clerics as reasonable character options.
(B) is equally problematic. Whatever powers Serenrae (or whoever) has personally, the Bestiaries are full of outsider servants who could reshape the mortal world in dramatic ways. Why not send them? Divine cold wars are popular, the gods have all agreed not to act directly for fear of laying waste to the world etc... etc... But what about Cheliax? What about the Worldwound? Asmodeus lent a human faction a bunch of devils and took over a nation. The Abyss is literally spewing hordes of demons out into Golarion on a semi regular basis. How is that consistent with divine arms control?
I'd much rather see some sort of cannon discussion of what the gods' politics look like and what controls when they do or don't intervene.
There is a more likely the case (d) as well, where the gods let mortals decide their fate. They aid, they counsel, but ultimately let mortals rise to the occasion and shine or fail and deal with the consequences. Even something as potent as another earthfall still should be countered through mortal heroes given choices to act or not. If they don't, then the after effects of such a cataclysm will surely give rise to new heroes.
Now when a god steps in and threatens to upset balance and/or existence (Rovagug) then they directly intervene since mortals, even the best of them, have no chance to resolve the situation.
Weiss and Hickman laid this view of the gods out very well in their Dragonlance universe.
I was always a fan of earlier editions breaking the gods into relative power categories (e.g., Greater, Intermediate, Lesser, Demi-, and even hero-deity > quasi-deity). Why? B/c if, for plot reasons, I wanted god or goddess A to slay or take on god or goddess B, I would have ways to figure out how plausible that was.
This is especially important because a lot of people don't understand that CR is a log scale, not a linear one. Having a CR 40 god is fine and dandy -- until you realize that means it is literally 64 times more powerful than a CR 28 lesser god, and therefore even a dozen such lesser gods working together have absolutely no chance of opposing it.
Also, it should be clear that 20th level PCs can actually do what demigods in myth and legend can do -- including creating their own worlds. Therefore, if demigods are CR 20, you'd actually want lesser gods and demon princes to be CR 24 if a party of 20th level PCs can oppose them, and intermediate gods to be CR 28 if parties lesser gods can oppose them. That means a CR cap of maybe 32 for greater gods, and anything CR 40 is beyond the power of any being(s) in the multiverse to oppose except all the gods in the entire setting working in concert.
Man, I should get my stats done by you guys! I'd be AWESOME!!!
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If we follow their pattern of average DC, Iomedae is probably CR 35 at minimum due to her DC 40 abilities. (See WotR for more details).
And Iomedae is one of the youngest deities of the setting. If we assume that there is still an order of importance between the gods.
So most likely deities are around CR 35 to CR 40, if someone ever wanted to bother stating them out.
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Well I'll say this you guys broke out some god-level necromancy on this thread.
In a home run, I could see a GM 'stat-ing' out an 'avatar' for a given deity.
...and it's nothing more than a MMO-esque sort of interaction device for said deity with *all* cheat codes enabled for the deity *only*.
Or, in other words.
a god should be a quadruple digit cr encounter
Which means that hundreds of lesser gods can't oppose one major one. Way to go.
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I still don't understand people's mindframe about this topic.
Pathfinder Demigods, as in being close to a full deity, somehow should be light years away when the max power of a Demigod is CR30. What goes in between then? Nothing? I feel like common sense would say that full godhood starts at CR31.