The Godsrain Prophecies Part Nine

Wednesday, April 3, 2024

As I near the end of my review of the Godsrain Prophecies, I’m reaching the part of any research project that’s the most daunting—the conclusion. While it will of course be up to my Lady to decide what, if anything, to do with these prophecies, I plan to present her with the two or three reasons for their existence that I believe are the most plausible (other than them all being true, which I maintain is nearly impossible).

Unfortunately, this need for clarity means that I must dismiss (or at least deemphasize) one of the more exciting ideas I have come up with thus far: that these are a collection of the gods’ fears. I have noted throughout these pages that there are responses to the gods’ deaths in each of the prophecies that seem out of character, either for the other gods or their followers, but I don’t believe this lack of consistency is due to these being reflections of what a god would worry over. In truth, I am not sure that gods fear anything at all. Is fear not driven by a sense of mortality, or at least, the potential for one’s role in the world to change or end at a moment’s notice? I wonder if, instead, the “prophecies” are intended to help the gods develop fear, to remind them that they are not beyond the reach of death and give them a small taste of mortal terror. Though to what end, I do not know. Who would want to give a god a nightmare?

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The “Death” of Irori

Irori is not one for dying. Death is common. Death is normal. Death is there for mortals who have not yet mastered how to reach new levels of perfection, who have not willed themselves into attaining the divine. Death might take some weaker god if given the right circumstances, starting with those cheaters who let the Starstone grant them power, grabbing godhood like some prize for drunks and thieves and zealots. But for a god like him, who’d worked and willed himself to godhood? Death is something of the past and he is moving forward.

Irori’s never rested long, no matter his successes. There’s always some new path to take at any well-earned milestone, some new technique to master, some new knowledge to find. Yes, it was good to be a god, if for no other reason than to share new possibilities with those who’d turn their will toward doing better with their lives. But he is one of many gods—some virtuous, some indolent—and so there must be something more, some way that he can still evolve. Some new route toward perfection.

Irori works with diligence, the way that he has always done, reaching beyond the world he’s known to better what he has become. Until one day, he grasps it all—the spaces in the sum of things, the power in the truth of everything that was or will be. And though total enlightenment is only for a moment, slipping between his fingers like a cloud of windblown sand, he still can feel the barrier between himself and something more, as pliable and thin as what once kept him from divinity. While he has it in his reach, he passes through the boundary, as bracing and as easy as a step through falling water. Irori, once a mortal, is now much more than deity.

Irori savors everything, if only for a moment. He takes a breath in every plane, his heartbeat now a multiverse, and feels the coursing power as it crashes through his veins. But he has departed our reality, has left a tear along the border of the way of things, and everything, on every plane, begins to shift toward him, as if he were a beacon for something within the Great Beyond—a single life, a single god, become a singularity. Gruhastha is the first to fall, the Keeper’s arms stretched uselessly, hands grasping at the emptiness he finds beside Irori’s feet. He’s swallowed by a void that somehow still contains a multitude, his body torn asunder in a bright and blissful darkness, his lips mouthing his gratitude, his throat choking on screams.

Irori is a magnet now, pulling those closest to him; Chaldira’s luck lost in a cry while Magrim’s runes go tumbling, some force dragging them both to places even he can’t follow. All he can do is close the gap before it sunders everything, using the power that he holds, still far beyond what it once was, to fix whatever he has done (or is doing or one day will, time half-unraveling in his hands). As he repairs the barrier, still dripping with the power that he touched from passing through it, Zon-Kuthon comes to stand beside him, image of the blinding void reflected in his longing eyes, and Nethys tries to touch the power nestled just beneath his skin, hands clawing unknown patterns of magic in the air. Both soon become his shadows, hounding every move he tries to make, Zon-Kuthon chasing memories and Nethys seeking answers, with Torag always close behind, holding his brother Magrim’s blade with vengeance on his mind. Some of Irori’s followers also trail behind him; those who were deep in prayer at the moment that he moved beyond, unable to unsee the void, dedicate themselves to its return, doing whatever they can to hasten the end of all things.

But Irori has a new path now, divinity left far behind as he masters the power that’s now deep within his bones. He sees things now—beneath the ground, between the breaths, inside the skin—and knows that they will take him where Gruhastha and the rest have gone, that what tore them apart will help him make himself anew. If there are prayers for him to hear, he is no longer listening. If rakshasas take his guise and use his faith to build their power? If Urgathoa’s clerics tell his followers that next time he will end the world and they should eat and drink and die with no thought for tomorrow? How can he care when there’s a new path for him to gain perfection? And if the world unmakes itself, if he had to unmake the world, if that brings him enlightenment, then that’s what it must be.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Irori, Nethys, Pharasma, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

What lies beyond divinity, and who better than Irori to first achieve such exquisite perfection that he leaves even other gods behind?





Well, that was certainly involved. Multiverses? Singularities? Bright voids? And yet, in all of that, I almost see a pattern. I have tried not to reference other prophecies in my notes here; if my Lady chooses to read them out of the original order that I chose, I would hate for her to learn a piece of information in these notes that would be better divulged by the original text. Still, I am reminded of the prophecy regarding Desna, which also mentions a void. And there are similarities between this prophecy and the one for Nethys, not only in their reciprocal mentions but in their fascination with the fundamental properties of our universe. Perhaps instead of looking at the prophecies individually, I should be looking for these types of commonalities—could things that are repeated be elements of some underlying message, or a hint as to what among these “prophecies” might be true amidst the overstatements and suppositions? If there was ever a time to make a chart, that time is upon us.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Liberty's Edge

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My stance has always been the god who dies will have the most narrative and thematic impact on the overall setting, which always has me coming back to either Rovagug, Abadar, Gozreh, or Sarenrae. Torag and Iomedae are too narrowly focused. Shelyn is too beloved, and her brother is safe.

Gorum is the wild card as his dying allows another to ascend, fitting for a War God. Plus as others have argued, Arazni makes for a great war goddess without taking over the War Domain.

That's my bet still. It will be one of these four: Roavagug, Abadar, Gozreh, Sarenrae or Gorum as the wild choice.


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Perpdepog wrote:
Nhimbaleth

Nhimbaloth.

Ans yes, there're some things which look adjacent to her. She is a predator on predators, void etc. Also she is a rival enemy of Pharasma and survived their conflict (not without consequences, but for both of them).

Liberty's Edge

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maybe we could check the poster and see if there is a pattern in the arrangement of the gods who are safe and which are not? because it might be pattern seeking brain here, but i see either a key shape in the negative space, or a mountain shape in the pattern of the safe. which... gorum's holy symbol is a mountain with a sword stuck in it, and abadar's is a key... dont not know what to make of it.


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ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:
maybe we could check the poster and see if there is a pattern in the arrangement of the gods who are safe and which are not?

I got two in a row predicting Nethys then Zon-Kuthon for the bingo, but then Desna ruined my streak.

So now I'm predicting 'even distribution' and thinking it'll be one of the currently unpicked corners. Guessing one of them...Sarenrae. Her corner looks pretty empty.


Easl wrote:

Guessing one of them...Sarenrae. Her corner looks pretty empty.

I would be so happy with that, as she's the only deity I think killing off would be a mistake, but I'm basing this off of thematics and it doesn't seem like the most suitably dramatic way to cap this off.


Not surprised. Pretty convinced either nobody is dying, or everyone is at risk of dying still & the term "safe" is just a false word.


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Does anyone else think it's odd how little Rovagug has been invoked in these prophecies? If memory serves, Asmodeus's was the only one to reference it, and that was more about securing the Dead Vault than about Rovagug itself. Given all these references to some hungry or maleovolent force, I'm surprised that Yivali hasn't really entertained the idea of Rovagug as a culprit, especially with Erastil's prophecy.


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Just thinking out loud: but if the goal is to start a war, killing Rovagug is a way to do it. The alliance that imprisoned him includes Gods that don't really like each other, but a mutual enemy that you don't want to escape has a way of keeping people in check and from moving too aggressively against anyone else.

Remove that and the playing field opens up a lot. Plus it's not like he DOES anything in there, story wise.

Probably a long shot, but I'll go with pretty much anything because I don't want it to be Shelyn.

Horizon Hunters

I've been going with the idea it's Shelyn for a long time now, and each additional SAFE on the bingo card makes me think it more.

My guess is something to do with Zon, either him accidentally causing her death (doubt he'd break his oath) or her sacrificing herself to save him somehow. Or maybe Rovagug gets out and eats her I dunno. She doesn't have much in the way of long-term enemies (other than Rovagug).

Regardless, Shelyn has three super strong ties to other deities: her brother and her lovers. PLENTY of reason to stir up a war among the remaining core deities. Plus she's a high profile and important goddess, but not so much so that her gone would have irreparable lore implications. As much as I think Sarenrae would be the "best" deity to die for dramatic effect and all, she's also SO important that it seems like it would close more doors than it would open, not to mention upset a lot more people.


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Anyone else think Groetus may be behind the prophecies?

He's a god with the void domain and is big on hopelessness and prophecies of the end times. He's also a sort of fundamental function of the universe so Yivali might be onto something there.

Moon Hags (or whatever they're called now) are also known for future sight iirc and they're associated with Groetus. Perhaps one of them wrote the prophecies?

Liberty's Edge

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Vee8 wrote:

Anyone else thinks Groetus may be behind the prophecies?

Hmm, possibly, but I think it's more and more likely, as others have mentioned: Nhimbaloth, but that way lies spoilers from Abomination Vaults.

So beware if you're researching. Or Grandmother Spider.

Tapi Gadsoul wrote:
I've been going with the idea it's Shelyn for a long time now, and each additional SAFE on the bingo card makes me think it more.

I don't think the Prismatic Radiance is in danger. A hunch. But if they were, I'd argue Sarenrae is the most likely to die.


Vee8 wrote:

Anyone else think Groetus may be behind the prophecies?

He's a god with the void domain and is big on hopelessness and prophecies of the end times. He's also a sort of fundamental function of the universe so Yivali might be onto something there.

Moon Hags (or whatever they're called now) are also known for future sight iirc and they're associated with Groetus. Perhaps one of them wrote the prophecies?

That suggests that the idea that whatever is behind the prophecies is connected to the god that actually dies is a red herring given that Groetus's whole thing is "I will end it precisely when I am meant to", which is probably more terrifying than it ever being a lie.

...But I'm pretty sure it's a lie at this point because the extremely catastrophic results of most of these deities dying does not match the fact that most deities aren't fundamental anchors of reality and share their domains with many others. So, no.

I can see a moon hag doing it, though, because like many of followers of Groetus they miss the point and he doesn't care.


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kellerh wrote:
Does anyone else think it's odd how little Rovagug has been invoked in these prophecies? If memory serves, Asmodeus's was the only one to reference it, and that was more about securing the Dead Vault than about Rovagug itself. Given all these references to some hungry or malevolent force, I'm surprised that Yivali hasn't really entertained the idea of Rovagug as a culprit, especially with Erastil's prophecy.

I think it's like... if anything happens that would involve him, then that IMMEDIATELY takes over everything else, so for that Doylist reason he can't show up in these prophecies; or at least, more than ONE of them (he might be mentioned in the last, or might be the subject of the last one). In-'verse... if I recall correctly, he's pretty much considered a non-entity at the present. Or, that's not the right way to phrase it... something that can be safely not thought about? The same way people my age (ie anyone born after the Cold War ended) think about nuclear bombs; yeah they'd be bad, but it's been dealt with, we don't have to seriously worry about them.

(Also I still think Rovy-boy shouldn't have been included in the "core 20" at all, as he's not actually a GOD for narrative purposes, rather an important setting element, like the Starstone.)


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Jan Caltrop wrote:
I think it's like... if anything happens that would involve him, then that IMMEDIATELY takes over everything else, so for that Doylist reason he can't show up in these prophecies; or at least, more than ONE of them (he might be mentioned in the last, or might be the subject of the last one). In-'verse... if I recall correctly, he's pretty much considered a non-entity at the present. Or, that's not the right way to phrase it... something that can be safely not thought about? The same way people my age (ie anyone born after the Cold War ended) think about nuclear bombs; yeah they'd be bad, but it's been dealt with, we don't have to seriously worry about them.

Except these stories are very much about how you should be seriously worrying about things like Rovagug.


GM_3826 wrote:
Vee8 wrote:

Anyone else think Groetus may be behind the prophecies?

He's a god with the void domain and is big on hopelessness and prophecies of the end times. He's also a sort of fundamental function of the universe so Yivali might be onto something there.

Moon Hags (or whatever they're called now) are also known for future sight iirc and they're associated with Groetus. Perhaps one of them wrote the prophecies?

That suggests that the idea that whatever is behind the prophecies is connected to the god that actually dies is a red herring given that Groetus's whole thing is "I will end it precisely when I am meant to", which is probably more terrifying than it ever being a lie.

...But I'm pretty sure it's a lie at this point because the extremely catastrophic results of most of these deities dying does not match the fact that most deities aren't fundamental anchors of reality and share their domains with many others. So, no.

I can see a moon hag doing it, though, because like many of followers of Groetus they miss the point and he doesn't care.

I'd be down for more Grandmother Spider content. I'd greatly prefer it over more Outer God/Great Old One silliness.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This made me a bit more hopeful that it won't be Saranrae, because I had firmly expected them to make Iomedae or Torag (two other prime candidates for getting murked) safe and instead they chose Mr. Boring.

Liberty's Edge

The pattern as presented is (S = Safe, N = Not Safe).

It is a pattern of the gods listed in the usual reading of the alignment grid and in alphabetical order within.

S N N N
N S S N
S N S S
N N S S
N S N N

Here, I feel the top right N should become a S, so Sarenrae.

linear is :

S N N N N S S N S N S S N N S S N S N N

I feel the 4 N in a row should be split in the middle. Could be Sarenrae, could be Torag (the succession of S and N feels a bit better there).

It is presented in a 4x5 matrix.

In a 5x4 matrix, it would be :

S N N N N
S S N S N
S S N N S
S N S N N

No idea here.

Liberty's Edge

If we take the same list but in alphabetical order, the linear pattern becomes :

N S N S S S N N N S N S N S N N N N S S

In a 4x5 matrix, it gives :

N S N S
S S N N
N S N S
N S N N
N N S S

In a 5x4 matrix, it becomes

N S N S S
S N N N S
N S N S N
N N N S S

Based on these, for our last Safe, I could see :

Based on the linear, the last N would turn to S to keep a repeating 1 or 3 pattern. So, Torag.

Based on the 4x5, I feel we would need one S in the last column to have a repeating 1 4 1 4. And if it is the last N of the column, it also gives a nice 2 S per row. So, Sarenrae.

Based on the 5x4, grasping at straws, I feel the N N N 3rd diagonal in the top left to bottom right order would need a S to provide some antisymetry. Putting it in the middle N would give us columns with 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 S. So, big maybe, Iomedae.

Dark Archive

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Segway: Irori's blatant description of the Ascended trio had me wheezing.

Edit: A possessive was lost.


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Tridus wrote:
if the goal is to start a war, killing Rovagug is a way to do it. The alliance that imprisoned him includes Gods that don't really like each other, but a mutual enemy that you don't want to escape has a way of keeping people in check and from moving too aggressively against anyone else.

I like it. Sort of an arch-duke Ferdinand type of thing: what kicks off this massive war is not the individual death itself, but all the agreements the death unravels/triggers.

So I guess he would be a prediction for NOT-safe. Sarenrae remains my prediction for next safe.


The Raven Black wrote:

The pattern as presented is (S = Safe, N = Not Safe).

It is a pattern of the gods listed in the usual reading of the alignment grid and in alphabetical order within.

S N N N
N S S N
S N S S
N N S S
N S N N

Here, I feel the top right N should become a S, so Sarenrae.

linear is :

S N N N N S S N S N S S N N S S N S N N

I feel the 4 N in a row should be split in the middle. Could be Sarenrae, could be Torag (the succession of S and N feels a bit better there).

It is presented in a 4x5 matrix.

In a 5x4 matrix, it would be :

S N N N N
S S N S N
S S N N S
S N S N N

No idea here.

If we interpret this as binary, with safe being 1 and not safe being 0, then it becomes †³. Currently this is gibberish, but if one of the first 5 not safes changes, we could get a number. So the question is what deity makes the most sense cubed?


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Y'all need Mathmuse. None of you are without sin.


Saedar wrote:
Y'all need Mathmuse. None of you are without sin.

I'm not placing too much stock in any of the pattern seeking.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

tbh I appreciate the way every time a pattern is broken (which is pretty much every post) someone just comes up with an even more convoluted pattern to try to explain the system at play.

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
GM_3826 wrote:
Saedar wrote:
Y'all need Mathmuse. None of you are without sin.
I'm not placing too much stock in any of the pattern seeking.

Yeah. If anything, Paizo people have histories of BREAKING patterns, not making them. :P

Even the big AR game they made for Dark Archives endded up not using any real "pattern", and the designers and developpers keep telling us that they are breaking down "patterns" that they got from the OGL, and feeling liberated not having them (like not feeling forced to always come up with exactly 5 dragons for each "families", or creating classes from the stories they can tell, and not as "pattern fillings", like "we don't have a prepared occult only caster yet" would be.) :P

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

The logical mind seeks pattern in chaos, for the illusionary comfort of order.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
The logical mind seeks pattern in chaos, for the illusionary comfort of order.

Irori found the pattern underlying chaos, for a small time.

Shadow Lodge

Then he was never looking at chaos to begin with.

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
Then he was never looking at chaos to begin with.

What is chaos ?

Liberty's Edge

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The Raven Black wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Then he was never looking at chaos to begin with.
What is chaos ?

♫What is love....♫


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The Raven Black wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Then he was never looking at chaos to begin with.
What is chaos ?

Legacy content.


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Squiggit wrote:
tbh I appreciate the way every time a pattern is broken (which is pretty much every post) someone just comes up with an even more convoluted pattern to try to explain the system at play.

So far my favorite patterns are the ones that try to make a holy symbol out of the "safe" markings.


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Rae Alain Paight wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Then he was never looking at chaos to begin with.
What is chaos ?
♫What is love....♫

Baby don't hurt me.


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Tapi Gadsoul wrote:

I've been going with the idea it's Shelyn for a long time now, and each additional SAFE on the bingo card makes me think it more.

My guess is something to do with Zon, either him accidentally causing her death (doubt he'd break his oath) or her sacrificing herself to save him somehow. Or maybe Rovagug gets out and eats her I dunno. She doesn't have much in the way of long-term enemies (other than Rovagug).

Regardless, Shelyn has three super strong ties to other deities: her brother and her lovers. PLENTY of reason to stir up a war among the remaining core deities. Plus she's a high profile and important goddess, but not so much so that her gone would have irreparable lore implications. As much as I think Sarenrae would be the "best" deity to die for dramatic effect and all, she's also SO important that it seems like it would close more doors than it would open, not to mention upset a lot more people.

If we get Callistra next then it is starting to look a lot like the harp Shelyn is carrying to me...

I know that it may look a tad like a mountain, but mountains are more often pictured from a flat base, while a harp always has a triangular shape with the right-angle on the side.
This is my first theory on this point, but there isn't much time left to debate it...


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Huh. We've actually had two different stories that included "and art and love suffered terribly, because Shelyn was Very Sad".

I mean, I'm still not particularly inclined to believe that it's going to be Shelyn, but it is something I find myself noticing.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

Huh. We've actually had two different stories that included "and art and love suffered terrible, because Shelyn was Very Sad".

I mean, I'm still not particularly inclined to believe that it's going to be Shelyn, but it is something I find myself noticing.

This increasingly looks like something that's just who she is, and art becoming hackneyed and/or angsty is a symptom of her being in a dour mod.

"Lamashtu take me, Shelyn's having a bad year again. Hold on to your butts, fellow critics, we're about to face some pretension for a bit."


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(edit: Smooshing two posts together to avoid the double-posting)

So now that the list has been trimmed a bit, let's go back down it from a doylist perspective. What makes the best story? The daity who dies almsot certainly isn't goign to break Golarion's everything, because we still need a gameworld ot play in after this is over. Their death is going ot create soem stories and close down others, and I'm betting that whoever we hit is more of the former than the latter. So...

- Iomedae: Nope. The story of Iomedae and Arazni awkwardly coming back to terms with one another and reestablishign a relationship is simply too good to lose for a cheap bit of fridge factor. If it was any other god joining, I might believe it was Iomedae, but I just dont' buy it in this case.

- Torag: Maybe. It'd be a bit of a lift to make stories of his death good enough that they'd be worth cashing the guy in, but given the existence of the rest of the dwarven pantheon, it's certainly doable. I wouldn't be surprised.

- Sarenrae: Maybe. Losing one of the prismatic ray would be kind of brutal, but of the three of them, from a storyline perspective? I feel like Sarenrae is the most disposable. She's got history, sure, but it's all *old* history. You could pretty easily have Shelyn and/or Desna pick up the redeemer aspect in her honor (especially Shelyn if she somehow managed to drag Zonny-boy a bit back towards the light) and Arazni and Iomedae can handle the crusader side, with maybe some Cayden to assist. There'd be a whole *lot* of grieving, but it woudlnt' break the world, and if they did it right, the stories could get richer rather than poorer. I'm not going to say that she *is*, but she *might* be. They'd have to figure out something to do about the sun, though.

- Shelyn: I don't buy it. It's too... abrupt as an end to the Zon-Shelyn story, and that's on top of the issues (representational and otherwise) with taking out one of the Prismatic Ray and the issue of telling people that now they're supposed to RP that AP as if love and art are both crippled at a fundamental level. Pretty sure this is a no.

- Abadar: Flat no. Abadar is the justification for so many simplifying conceits about how things work in Golarion. They're not going to want to give those up. We might well see some interesting character development out of him or something, but at the end of the day he's still going to be there making the banking system go.

- Gozreh: Nah. Gozreh's pretty bland, in a lot of ways. That cuts both ways, though. Not much lost, but not much gained. A decent bit of disruption in thigns like overseas trade, and that's interesting enough, but it's not real long-term storyline fodder. That by itself would be a "maybe", but Gozreh is also quietly the no-big-deal representation deity for nonbinary, in a way that clearly exists but would be difficult to rebplicate. so... no. Actual meaningful cost with no meanignful benefit says no.

- Callistra: Flat no. Callistra's cool, and she does have some story and personality to her, and killing her off would extinguish that without really giving us much in the way of story back. So that's a no.

- Gorum: Oh, yeah. This guy is literally hollow. I get why they put him in when they were makign the set in the first place. He does well at being the Awesome Edgy Violent God for people to be Awesome and Edgy and Violent with... but Paizo's been moving away from that in general, and once you take that mantle from his shoulders there's just not that much left. Like I said before, literally any PC that might choose to follow Gorum as their deity could be made a more interesting character by ditching Gorum and picking one of the other twenty... no matter which one they picked. That's a pretty damning indictment. From a doylist perspective, I think that Gorum is a very real possibility, and I'm rooting for him. Admittedly, you would have to work a bit to make his death produce a lot of story, but I think he makes it a lto easier to net positive than most.

- Norgorber: I wouldn't think so. Norgorber is a lousy deity for a PC, and what personality he has is pretty screwy, and I personally sure don't like him much, but he's an excellent justification for certain kinds of theme villain, and those can be useful tools in the GM's toolbox. Also, killing him doesn't really net you a whole lot.

- Lamashtu: Nope! She's got the Norgorber theme villain thing going on and with the softening of alignments we're moving into an era where we can do some really interesting things with her from the PC side, too. There are some real possibilities there... and killing her off doesn't get you a lot other than sighs of relief from Pazuzu and Baphomet. So no.

- Rovagug: oh very much yes. If I were betting, I'd have a bit of money on Gorum, and maybe on Sarenrae (bitterness and recriminations from my alt aside), but my big money would be on Rovagug. Rovagug is literally backed into a corner, and there really aren't any stories that can be told with him alive that can't be told with him dead except for his cataclysmic death. He literally has one story left in him... so why not tell it? Meanwhile, him dying is pretty much guaranteed to cause all sorts of realignments among the deities as their previous detente is shattered. So yeah. This is the one I think most likely.

Side note: I now know the various deities of the Core 20 so much better than I did before these prophecies started.

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Leliel the 12th wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:

Huh. We've actually had two different stories that included "and art and love suffered terrible, because Shelyn was Very Sad".

I mean, I'm still not particularly inclined to believe that it's going to be Shelyn, but it is something I find myself noticing.

This increasingly looks like something that's just who she is, and art becoming hackneyed and/or angsty is a symptom of her being in a dour mod.

"Lamashtu take me, Shelyn's having a bad year again. Hold on to your butts, fellow critics, we're about to face some pretension for a bit."

"Yeah, yeah. I know. You've heard it a thousand times. We should all worship and appreciate Sarenrae because she's a redeemer and a crusader and also the Sun. That's great and all but after a while the shiny flakes off of it and it just seems kind of meh. So she's a glorious sun goddess of smiting evil. Big deal, right? Okay, so now I'm going to hit you where you live. You should get down on your knees and praise and thank Sarenrae because you're an artist. Your entire reason for being is wrapped around a shard of creativity inside of you that lives and dies by Shelyn's moods, and Shelyn gets sad when she doesn't get enough of that warm solar love. So think about that the next time you're going through your evening prayers."

"...and Desna?"

"Oh, I got a whole 'nother rant about Desna. Suffice it to say... yes."


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Like I said before, literally any PC that might choose to follow Gorum as their deity could be made a more interesting character by ditching Gorum and picking one of the other twenty... no matter which one they picked.

My feel for him is kind of the opposite and why I think he might be safe. "War god" is such a fundamental concept and there's no real viable replacement for him in the core 20. Gorum might not be the flashiest deity, but I feel like a core pantheon that lacks anyone in his design space is a core pantheon that feels like it's missing something... and ultimately I think that's a relevant consideration because whatever pantheon we're left with at the end of this is going to be part of Golarion's branding.


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I could see Gorum as the Core 20 deity they're the least happy with. Since he's basically an expy for the Cimmerian deity Crom from Howard, in Pathfinder he's less "overcome adversity, no matter what" it's more "fight anybody for any reason whenever."

Specifically because Crom is the god of Conan, then we get Gorum tied to the people who get read as "barbarians" even though said "primitive" people should be more concerned with like "the weather" and "agriculture" than "war." Like there should be no reason that tribal or nomadic people should be more interested in "war" than the most "civilized" people around.

Plus even though Arazni specifically isn't taking the job of the deity she's replacing, she's still a good choice for "struggling against impossible odds" and "winning a fight against those who have it coming."

There's also that old hook of "why did Gorum build his stronghold in Elysium" that is going to make less and less sense the further we get from "alignment" being a thing. So they might as well pay that off while they can.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

(edit: Smooshing two posts together to avoid the double-posting)

So now that the list has been trimmed a bit, let's go back down it from a doylist perspective. What makes the best story? The daity who dies almsot certainly isn't goign to break Golarion's everything, because we still need a gameworld ot play in after this is over. Their death is going ot create soem stories and close down others, and I'm betting that whoever we hit is more of the former than the latter. So... [...]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Besides, there are many which I agree with.

(BTW: Thanks to all of you friendly speculators and guessers. Having fun to read and learning lots of nerd-knowledge.)

BTW: Something that makes interpreting the "Godsrein Prophecies" even harder is Yivali's latest "dismiss (or at least deemphasize)". So effectively, by altering the way to read the stories from week to week, the hype-engine turned higher - even when the mathematical options narrowed down a little bit.

I am still wondering whether Rovagug was just too useful alive as the big, world-devastating nuclear threat that looms over (or inside) creation. Changing this could be truly gigantic and change the course of an arbitrarily big amount of cosmic stories. Would that be fitting for these products - or be a bit too big?

On the other hand, it might somehow be "mitigated" and fine-tuned. For instance by splitting Rovagug into multiple entities, similar to existing spawn. These might even have divine potential on their own and be more practical than the extremely overpowered worldbreaker as a whole. Plus, the dark tapestry and their powers, which I suspect to be the main source of evil anyway, might add all sorts of new world ending threats into the future mix.

Points that still give me pause for thought are investigating further, suspected clues in the story and some meta-gaming considerations (like the old alignment grid, player options etc.). Actually the latter might make a killed Rovagug more likely. Though regarding story elements, perceived clues, etc. I still tend to a Gorum- or Goszreh-Rain.

(Then again, Yvalis "name-dropping cue" could be a big, fat Red Herring. ;-) Or totally be revised by new Yrali-findings that "Rova-Gug" had new meanings in some pre Azlant-language. Stuff like "Divine Rein - Shaking World" or the like ;-))

(NOTE: To not mislead anyone willingly myself: That last (language) bit is utterly made up by me and not based on any actual clue I read in the "Godsrain Prophcies.")


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I wonder if Yivali's comment on the order in which the prophecies have been presented in is actually a clue to us to reevaluate the order we've had them presented. Maybe by reading them in a different order, a "more correct" order, new patterns will emerge.


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I think that to a degree we're doing the human thing of recognizing patterns whether or not they actually exist to be recognized. This is why we have the scientific method.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
I think that to a degree we're doing the human thing of recognizing patterns whether or not they actually exist to be recognized. This is why we have the scientific method.

No doubt. I'm not married to any theory. Speculating is just fun.


I hate to say this but I can't help but be afraid that it really is Shelyn who's going to die. I don't want her to, she's my personal favorite, but with the Prismatic Ray set to change somehow, according to an early tease, and that I doubt they're going to kill the goddess one of the iconics worships I can't help but fear that Shelyn is going to die.

Now I could be wrong, I desperately hope that I'm wrong. The one hint is open to interpretation, and maybe they feel like the extra shock value by getting rid of an iconic too, or something.


So I was listening to, I think it was PaizoCon last year, or a Paizo Live, but it was something from the people who worked on LO: Highhelm. And they were talking about the dwarven pantheons, including one which has Torag's family in it but not Torag himself, like for characters in the next few years who'd not want to worship Torag for whatever reason. (I don't remember the exact phrasing; it was ones of those things "I'll remember it, no need to jot down the timestamp for reference" and then I didn't remember it.) Which, I'm equally sure it implies he DOES and DOESN'T die, and yes it's as confusing as it sounds.

Maybe someone who's familiar with Sky King's Tomb could weigh in on that matter?


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I think that I know what you're referring to, and it was one reason I started thinking Torag might be the one. Dwarves getting a big glow-up is seen by several folks as a reason why he wouldn't be, why off him just after he got fleshed out, but I saw the opposite. All the other dwarven deities got fleshed out, too, making them more appealing as options for worship.


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Nintendogeek01 wrote:

I hate to say this but I can't help but be afraid that it really is Shelyn who's going to die. I don't want her to, she's my personal favorite, but with the Prismatic Ray set to change somehow, according to an early tease, and that I doubt they're going to kill the goddess one of the iconics worships I can't help but fear that Shelyn is going to die.

Now I could be wrong, I desperately hope that I'm wrong. The one hint is open to interpretation, and maybe they feel like the extra shock value by getting rid of an iconic too, or something.

Honestly, I think a future adventure path kind of tipped their hand:

Shelyn dying will result in a loss of creative spirit across the board.

Curtain Call is all about producing an opera.

One of these things does not sound like something that can easily be done in light of the other.


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Leliel the 12th wrote:


Honestly, I think a future adventure path kind of tipped their hand:

Shelyn dying will result in a loss of creative spirit across the board.

Curtain Call is all about producing an opera.

One of these things does not sound like something that can easily be done in light of the other.

Well, Shelyn causes artistic spirits to falter in these stories that are explicitly not canon and even in universe suspect to be the product of an ulterior motive.

No matter which god they off, "this god's death fundamentally breaks an aspect of reality" is probably not a concept they can sustain into the long term anyways.

It's also something that's both inconsistent within these stories (some deities don't seem to alter their portfolio at all when they die) and something that becomes sort of problematic for the setting if played straight over a long period (both in terms of actual setting material and in its indirect commentary on gods themselves).

So I don't think it's a reliable consideration.

... Though honestly even taking the supposition at face value it could go either way. A story about defying the curse of a failed deity to create an opera in a world that's lost its artistic spark sounds AP worthy.


Perpdepog wrote:
I think that I know what you're referring to, and it was one reason I started thinking Torag might be the one. Dwarves getting a big glow-up is seen by several folks as a reason why he wouldn't be, why off him just after he got fleshed out, but I saw the opposite. All the other dwarven deities got fleshed out, too, making them more appealing as options for worship.

And if he DOESN'T die, then -- assuming an offhanded mention a year ago is something we can rely on, and it wasn't just referring to stuff from SKT -- something could happen to make him considered less worthy of worship than the members of his family. Honestly right now I'm more interested in considering what THAT might be, because there's so many possibilities to think about, while "he dies" is a single possibility. (I'm not saying it's more or less likely because I genuinely can't tell which I feel; I'm just saying which option is more interesting for me to speculate about.)

He could do something that's considered a total disgrace by many of the people who would otherwise have worshipped him; maybe it's something that's ACTUALLY disgraceful, maybe it just goes against what they WANT him to be.
He could undergo a change of his nature, such that he no longer FITS with the themes of the rest of his family.
He could actively go "hey I'll be off doing something important for a while and won't necessarily be able to respond, so pray to these guys instead while I'm away".

There's other possibilities I can feel in the corners of my mind, but they like to dance away when it's late so I can't articulate any of them, or even hold them in view.


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I'm kind of hoping that whoever we lose gets a good death (unless it's Rovagug I don't really care then, he doesn't quite have the same vibe). The core 20 have been setting centerpieces for as long as there's been a Pathfinder, even the ones that people here like to trash still have some people to whom they mean something.

I'm not saying ignoble deaths in fiction are bad or unjustified in general, or that these stories haven't been interesting as one offs, but Torag/Sarenrae/Shelyn/Gorum/etc. dying a meaningless death mired in failure and disgrace would I think just kind of feel a bit lame and bad, imo. I know that's kind of a running theme in some of these stories, but it works here because they're one-offs, and I don't think it would work as well in the main narrative.

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