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Starfinder Adventure Path #1: Incident at Absalom Station (Dead Suns 1 of 6)

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Starfinder Adventure Path #1: Incident at Absalom Station (Dead Suns 1 of 6)
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A Ship Without a Crew

When a brutal gang war breaks out on a docking bay in Absalom Station, the player characters are recruited by the Starfinder Society to investigate the unexpected bloodshed. Delving into the station’s seedy Spike neighborhoods, the heroes confront the gangs and discover that both were paid to start the riot and that the true conflict is between two rival mining companies battling over a new arrival in orbit around the station: a mysteriously deserted ship and the strange asteroid it recovered from the Drift. To head off further violence, the heroes are asked to investigate the ship and discover what happened to its crew, as well as the nature of the asteroid it tows. But what the players find there will set in motion events that could threaten the entirety of the Pact Worlds and change the face of the galaxy forever...

This volume of Starfinder Adventure Path launches the Dead Suns Adventure Path and includes:

  • "Incident at Absalom Station," a Starfinder adventure for 1st-level characters, by Robert G. McCreary.
  • A gazetteer of Absalom Station, by James L. Sutter.
  • Magical relics inspired by the lost planet Golarion, by Owen K.C. Stephens.
  • An archive of new alien creatures, by Jason Keeley and Robert G. McCreary.
  • Statistics and deck plans for a new starship designed just for the player characters, plus details on a new planet in the Codex of Worlds, by Robert G. McCreary.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-961-5

The Dead Suns Adventure Path is sanctioned for use in Starfinder Society Organized Play. The rules for running this Adventure Path and Chronicle sheet are available as a free download (1.7 MB PDF).

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Hero Lab Online
Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
SoundSet on Syrinscape
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5/5 —

A serviceable start

3/5 —

There's been a lot of words written about the Dead Suns AP as a whole. I don't want to rehash what other people have written, but here are my thoughts:

1. Requires buy-in from the players, no players guide - As it starts out almost as abruptly as Abomination Vaults for PF2. You're here to meet a dwarf about joining the SF Society, he gets murked, you get drawn into a conspiracy. If the players are disinterested, then no amount of begging by the Shirren SF Society contact is going to make them care.

2. Red Herrings - There's several red herrings floating around involving corporate bureaucratic infighting between a mining guild and a corporation over who gets to claim the Drift Rock that's never really elaborated upon and is honestly just a time-waster as there's no payoff for the group at all. I think it's better to excise this part entirely.

3. Another Red Herring - There's a character that you meet who basically disappears and is never mentioned again, except that your choice to complete the job or not complete the job may affect whether you get somebody's away message in the third AP. Was kind of disappointed.

4. The Ship Is A Deathtrap - Part 2 takes place on a derelict. Really cool, really spooky, except the players are marooned on this ship with no choice but to go forward. Good to chase the players up a tree, bad in that they probably were not prepared for this. My suggestion? Have an unethical space goblin/Wytchwyrd merchant dock with the derelict and offer medical services or consumables to the group. They will need them, if most peoples accounts of playing this AP are to be believed.

Disappointing

2/5 —

NO SPOILERS

Ok, here we go! The first adventure path for Starfinder, Dead Suns. I got to play it in a campaign that took a couple of years of biweekly sessions. My starting PC was a hyper-caffienated energy drink loving barathu envoy, B'rll'blub. He was great fun to play, but proved startlingly ineffective in combat and died later in the campaign--but it was through his eyes I first experienced what I'm reviewing today, Chapter 1: Incident at Absalom Station. In the flagged section below, I discuss the adventure in detail. My general thoughts might be summed up as: it's okay, but nothing spectacular, and with some encounters that aren't really fair to the PCs. Here in the "No Spoilers" section, however, I'm going to discuss everything in volume one that's not part of the adventure--the front and back matter.

[Cut for space: my hatred of the cover, and my description of the inside front and back covers and the author's foreword.]

The first piece of proper back matter is a twelve-page gazetteer of Absalom Station, the center for humanity in the Pact Worlds solar system (the main campaign setting for Starfinder). An interesting history is provided for the station, and I like how it cleverly integrates some concepts from Pathfinder (like the Starstone, some neighborhood names) while making it its own thing. Absalom Station is perhaps the most important location in the setting, as it holds the headquarters for the Pact Worlds government, the Starfinder Society, the Stalwarts (intergalactic peacekeepers), and more. It also serves as a natural starting location for adventures, and a probable home for PCs since it's a pretty multicultural place--a bit like Babylon 5. Although much of this information is probably replicated in the Pact Worlds hardcover, the gazetteer does a good job describing the different areas of the station and leaves a lot of room for GMs to customise as necessary for the adventure they want to tell. There are some "feel and flavour" elements that I think are missing--how do people get around (elevators? trams? vehicles?); what's it like for newcomers when they arrive (visas? security inspections? customs taxes?); and what laws are in place regarding weapons (frowned upon? side-arms only? everyone's got a rocket launcher?). This last issue in particular has proven problematic for a lot of gamers as it goes to varying real-world conceptions of what's normal for urban communities. As a complete aside, I can't help but note that the artwork of the dude on page 43 is *clearly* an intentional likeness of Jon Bernthal from Netflix's The Punisher!

Next up is "Relics of Golarion", a four-page-long collection of new magical items that have historical links to the now-missing planet. The writer clearly knew their Pathfinder lore, as there's a rich evocation of setting elements in the backstory to each item. In terms of actual usefulness, many of the items are too expensive or too high-level to be useful for most PCs, but I liked the falcon boots (allowing a PC to make a sort of personal gravity field so they can walk on walls or ceilings, even in Zero-G) and the (perhaps overpowered) chained weapon fusion which gives any melee weapon the reach property! I liked the section, though as a timing matter I think it was probably too soon and the space should have been devoted to making Starfinder more its own thing instead of tying it so closely to Pathfinder. New readers can be turned off if they feel they can't get the full story without playing an entirely different game.

A bestiary-style "Alien Archives" introduces 7 new creatures, with each receiving a page. The line-up is: akatas, bone troopers, driftdead, garaggakal, rauzhant, vracinea, and void zombies. The artwork is really strong here, though I don't see much in the way of creative ideas here (and a couple of just updates of Pathfinder monsters). Five of the seven appear in the adventure proper, which is a nice way to save word count there.

Finally, there's the "Codex of Worlds", a one-page description of a planet ripe for adventure that's located somewhere outside of the Pact Worlds system. This issue's entry is "Heicoron IV", an ocean planet with rival civilizations. Although they share a common ancestry, one has adopted to living on floating cities while the other has made the depths their home. There's a "first/early contact" situation for explorers. A classic SF concept that could have appeared (budget-willing) on Star Trek. It's not easy to design a world in one-page, but I liked what I saw with Heicoron IV.

The pattern established in this first issue of the AP persists in subsequent issues, with each including a setting element, a bestiary section, some player-facing character options, and a one-page new world. It's worth noting these volumes are also much shorter (just 64 pages each) compared to first edition Pathfinder APs, making them less of a value for the budget-conscious.

SPOILERS! (for the whole AP):

On to the adventure! This starts with a two-page campaign outline that offers the GM a rough idea of what's in store for the entire AP. In short, Dead Suns is going to be a planet-hopping adventure. The PCs start on Absalom Station in Chapter 1, head to Castrovel in Chapter 2, on to the Diaspora in Chapter 3, a gas giant in the Vast in Chapter 4, an artificial moon in Chapter 5, and then a massive Corpse Fleet flagship in Chapter 6. This is an AP meant to show off themes of space travel and exploration, not one about laying down roots or deep involvement with NPCs and communities. The plot itself concerns the lurking danger of an epic superweapon called the Death St--I mean, the Stellar Degenerator--capable of destroying entire worlds. I'll get more into that in reviews of later chapters.

Part 1 of Incident at Absalom Station is "Absalom Gang War." All of the PCs are meant to be new (or returning) visitors to Absalom Station interested in joining the Starfinder Society (an organisation devoted to exploration, scholarship, and first contact). That's a reasonable premise, but I *really* wish Starfinder did AP Player's Guides like Pathfinder does--they make great advertising tools and help players better immerse themselves in a campaign's premise.

Anyway, I think starting a campaign off with some drama and action is a wise choice, and that's what we get here, because the moment the PCs step off their shuttle and into the docking bay, they're caught in a firefight between two rival gangs! The Starfinder agent meant to show the group around (a dwarf named Duravor Kreel) is killed in the crossfire. I joked with my GM for months after because this is done in a heavy-handed way. Instead of Kreel being killed in the opening descriptive text (before the PCs can do anything), he's required to be killed in the first round of Initiative (no matter what the PCs do, and with no attack or damage roll required). But my PC had a rescue plan! Oh well . . .

With Kreel dead and the gang members dispatched (or fled), the PCs will eventually come into contact with the shirren Chiskisk, a higher-ranking member of the Starfinder Society. Chiskisk is concerned that perhaps Kreel's death wasn't simply a "wrong place at the wrong time" situation, and asks the group to investigate his death as a sort of audition to become members of the group. The investigation aspect is handled pretty well, I think, with five different columns for Gather Information results on different topics and lots of room for creative GMs to flavour how (or from whom) the PCs are getting the info. The PCs will quickly understand that the two gangs fighting in the docking bay (the "Downside Kings" and the "Level 21 Crew") were essentially proxies hired by two rival mining companies (the "Hardscrabble Collective" and "Astral Extractions"). The mining companies are enmeshed in a legal dispute over who gets to claim ownership of an asteroid-sized chunk of rock found in the Drift that had been towed back to Absalom Station by a mining survey ship named the Acreon. As all of the crew of the ship were dead on arrival, Absalom Station's authorities have placed the ship and the Drift rock into quarantine some distance from the station.

That info reveals what the gangs (and their mining company employers) were fighting over, but it doesn't yet explain the nature of Duravor Kreel's death. To get more answers, the PCs need to visit each gang's headquarters and see their leader. The adventure handles this part well, with diplomatic and violent approaches accounted for, and some good characterisation of the NPCs. Busting up gang members isn't exactly intergalactic SF action, but every Starfinder has to start somewhere! Assuming their investigation goes well, the PCs should learn that, in fact, Kreel was an intended victim by one of the gangs--he was a board member of the Hardscrabble Collective and so a hit was put out on him by Astral Extractions out of fear he would also get the Starfinder Society involved in the legal dispute. It's a mystery that has a satisfying conclusion, and gives the PCs an early sense of accomplishment.

Part 2 is "Ghost Ship." The PCs have a few days of downtime to explore and establish themselves on Absalom Station--something that's good for role-playing, even if the GM knows they won't be staying there long. They're then invited to a meeting with Ambassador Gevalarsk Nor, the necrovite (a type of undead) ambassador from Eox! Friendly chatting with evil undead is something some players will have difficulty swallowing, but the premise of Starfinder is that Eox is a full member of the Pact Worlds and that although some people find them distasteful or suspicious, they're generally treated decently. It definitely makes for an interesting meeting, as the PCs learn that the ambassador has an offer for them: he wants them to investigate the Acreon and the Drift rock, and report what they find. It turns out that Ambassador Nor is the mediator between the ongoing dispute over who should get to claim the rock. He's willing to pay well, and he offers additional payment if the PCs bring back to him personally a particular container in the ship's hold--though he won't reveal what's in it! I can't argue with a "What's in the box? Don't open the box!" mystery.

Assuming the PCs agree, they'll get their first taste of the game's starship combat rules. The shuttle they've been loaned is attacked by a single-seat interceptor piloted by an android assassin (hired by whichever mining company the PCs seemed most adverse to). I'm on the record as loathing starship combat in Starfinder, but at least this one is quick and easy, and serves as a straightforward introduction of the rules to players new to the game. As is often the case, I am annoyed that whether the PCs win or lose this starship combat, there are no real consequences, as the adventure assumes that the PCs take lifeboats to get on to the Drift rock (I have no idea why this "professional assassin" wouldn't just shoot down their lifeboats, and the adventure provides no explanation either).

Exploring the Acreon plays up to the classic science fiction "ghost ship" trope. The crew are either dead or vanished, and the PCs need to figure out what happened to them. Their investigation is hampered by the fact that some space goblins from Absalom Station broke into the quarantined ship earlier; I like how they can be simple foes to neutralize or made short-term hirelings (my group chose the latter option, because we needed all the help we could get!). The answer to what befell the ship's crew comes pretty quickly: the movie Alien. Here, they're "akatas", but they look and act very similar to Ripley's foes, complete with the egg-laying-in-human-host bit. Frankly, I wouldn't have minded an answer that was more creative and original. On the other hand, the "what's in the box?!" mystery has a great reveal. When I played, our group didn't open it because the Ambassador said not to and we wanted to get paid. But if a group does, they see there's a dead body inside--and the body opens its eyes and speaks! In short, the container contains an undead "bone trooper" who was being smuggled into Absalom Station by Ambassador Nor. This can turn into a combat or a role-playing encounter, but either way I think it's a creepy-fun answer.

Part 3 is "Phantoms of the Drift" and sees the PCs exploring the Drift rock itself. A well-concealed cave leads to a hidden complex of chambers with technology far in advance of what the Pact Worlds has. The PCs won't know this now (and even as a player, I never realised it until preparing this review), but the Drift rock is actually a small sheared-off portion of the Stellar Degenerator itself! While exploring, the PCs have to survive the android assassin who comes after them in person, some zombies (crew members from the Acreon infected by the akatas), a security robot, and more. They'll also be attacked by a driftdead (a new creature from the back matter's bestiary) that was once a space explorer named Moriko Nash--who died 75 years ago! It turns out Nash was the captain of a starship called the Sunrise Maiden that encountered the Drift rock decades before the Acreon. In a touching bit, the PCs find Nash's last recording that details her fate and gives an ominous warning that something is hunting her.

The PCs probably won't have realised it, but once they landed on the Drift rock and started exploring, their shuttle is remotely activated and flies back to Absalom Station, leading them stranded. This is a contrived (and to my mind execrable) excuse to force the PCs to find another way home. Of course, they'll find the Sunrise Maiden in a hangar bay, the ship intended to be their real home for the rest of the campaign (and the subject of the inside front and back cover). But first, they have to deal with what killed the ship's former captain.

The big boss of Incident at Absalom Station is a new monster called a garaggakal. It's a CR5 monster with a bite attack that does 2d6+9 damage, a special "Leech Life" attack that it can use (a limited number of times per day) to instantly do 5d6 damage that it then gains as temporary hit points, and an EAC/KAC high enough that PCs will probably hit it only 25% of the time. Oh, and if PCs barricade themselves in a room somewhere to rest and heal, it can pass through walls to get them! In short, it's a TPK waiting to happen, as evidenced by several posts in the forum. My experience as a player was exactly the same, although the GM took pity on us and had it act in ways that allowed us to eventually beat it. Frankly, I'd rather suffer a TPK than get a pity win. But in any event, placing the garaggakal there was a terrible decision idea by the adventure writer. I guess I can chalk it up to the difficulties with appropriately scaling difficulty in a brand new game, but I feel like just eyeballing what it can do versus what four average Level 2 PCs can do shows it's likely to be a big problem that leaves a sour taste in the mouth moving forward. And that's where the adventure concludes--there's not an epilogue, because the action starts up immediately in the next volume of the AP, right when the PCs leave the Drift rock.

Overall, both as a player and a reader, I felt some disappointment with Incident at Absalom Station. There were some bits I really enjoyed (the investigation and dealing with the ambassador, for example), but the plot afterwards was pretty basic: a ghost ship followed by a space-dungeon crawl that I've seen a million times, in Starfinder Society scenarios and elsewhere. I was hoping that the first AP for the game would really hit things out of the park (like Rise of the Runelords) did for Pathfinder, but that just isn't the case. And the big boss encounter made it clear that the writers' expectations of what an average group can do is not realistic.

Good starting adventure, but not that good intro

3/5 —

So I'm having bit of problem with these reviews because I'm doing them while running the final book, so by now players' reactions and such isn't super fresh in my mind :p But at least my impressions have had time to age.

The adventures premise of "your contact got killed that ropes you into plot between two factions competing for same thing" and gags involved in it IS interesting.... But have no relevance to rest of the plot at all, so it all feels kind of... Irrelevant?

If Dead Suns is structured like a scifi action adventure movie, this book is essentially pre credit roll intro thing. Like Indiana Jones stea- err finding that golden idol and having it stolen by his evil counterpart. Except instead of lasting 5-10 minutes, it lasts for one sixth of the story.

(that said, actual adventure is fun, I like use of akata and stuff in the drift rock in itself, but its weak overall plotwise when you look at the ap as whole. It does have interesting stuff like potential enemy you can turn to friend and I do like idea of drift rock's discovery setting you up on grand journey. Though this book has several moments of straight up railroading that feels unnecessary or like if it could have been written around differently)

P.S. Gevalarsk Nor is the best npc of this ap. I do find it bit of mixed bag in how its kept secret for gm what his subplot is actually about, but I do like it you can reasonable figure it out by paying close attention through entire ap.

I expected so much more from Paizo then this...

2/5 —

While I generally do not play published adventures, Incident at Absalom Station is exactly WHY I don't play published adventures.

Without spoiling too much of the plot, IaAS is a railroady, contrived adventure that tries to be a murder-mystery but was written by someone who clearly had no idea how to write a murder-mystery.

The book kicks off with the players being newly recruited Starfinder Society members that arrive only to see their Society contact get gunned down in front of them. What follows is a paint-by-numbers story of corporate intrigue that drags on for much longer then it needs to be. Five minutes of dice rolling and roleplaying, and most intelligent players will have found both the main suspect and the motive. But because the writing is contrived, the party still has to trudge through largely pointless filler and no, you cannot call on the Starfinder Society to help speed things up (remind me why we joined these guys again?)

After the initial mystery resolves itself with an unsatisfying bit of Deus Ex Machina, we get to the second half of the adventure, a fairly standard dungeon crawl. Other then the fact that the encounters as written are not balanced for a standard party of four level two adventurers, this actually isn't all that bad. And yes, there is errata available that makes the dungeon encounters more manageable. That one was on us.

I will not elaborate on the ending other then it is fittingly unsatisfying for an adventure that had little player agency and was horribly contrived almost from the get-go. For a company that had been writing adventures for 14 years before Dead Suns dropped, Paizo's first outing into the Pact Worlds should have been better then this.

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Liberty's Edge
captain yesterday wrote:

It should be noted people already pay 22.99 for campaign setting books, and the module line is 24.99 and also has 64 pages.

Just saying.

And how do these sale compared to AP books ? :-/

If Paizo looks at sales of the 1st volume to see how well the game will fare, then I think they should avoid any and all hurdles that would get people away from buying it

Or maybe they decided to go for a different marketing model than that of PFRPG and focus on selling the rules books whatever happens to the AP.
The Inheritor wrote:
Troodos wrote:
Leviathan Rising, anyone?
Leviathan Wakes!

Well now I look foolish.

I'm wondering if advancement may be a little different than in PF, and that less info might be needed to do more. If you have 6 adventures to 20th - that would be 3 and a third level per adventure. That does seem reasonable. If a big space battle takes 2 pages of text to do for the encounter, and be big part of each adventure - then 64 could easily be enough. Perhaps the bi-monthly isn't just caution, maybe there is 2 months worth of weekly playing crammed into those 64 pages.

It will be interesting to see exactly what happens.

Will there be some Starfinder posters to order also? I would love to add some to my game room.
The Exchange
captain yesterday wrote:
It should be noted people already pay 22.99 for campaign setting books, and the module line is 24.99 and also has 64 pages.

Yeah, but if you (like me) expected the comparison to be made be made with the Pathfinder AP issues, it can easily generate a bit of disappointment.

This said, I'm certainly willing to give it a try and see if there's enough backmatter to satisfy my curiosity. What I'm missing at the moment is the pdf option, though.
2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Well, with the shorter AP page count, maybe they are trying something new in more ways than one. Maybe this AP is only meant to get you roughly half way to level 20; and maybe the next AP will be a high level one that takes you the rest of the way to 20th level? Then, later they start with another low-level AP, followed by another high-level one, enabling GMs to mix and match high and low -level APs as they wish to give campaigns more variety and parity with the newer, more mathematically streamlined level progression the designers said they worked on for Starfinder? Maybe the 6 level spellcasting limit was part of that?

Wishful thinking? Probably. But, I like the idea. :)

I agree with others...that description has a LOT of stuff for a 64 page volume to include.
WormysQueue wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
It should be noted people already pay 22.99 for campaign setting books, and the module line is 24.99 and also has 64 pages.

Yeah, but if you (like me) expected the comparison to be made be made with the Pathfinder AP issues, it can easily generate a bit of disappointment.

This said, I'm certainly willing to give it a try and see if there's enough backmatter to satisfy my curiosity. What I'm missing at the moment is the pdf option, though.

No doubt, I was a little disappointed at first myself.

Also agree on the pdf.
Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer
2 people marked this as a favorite.

Those of you asking operational questions (subscriptions, PDF availability, etc.) will want to look in on this thread in the CS forum.

Where is the information about limiting the new character classes to L6 spell-casting?

Does this mean that the arcanist, cleric, druid, oracle, psychic, shaman, sorcerer, witch, and wizard classes are completely unavailable for PCs? What about NPCs? Would there be prestige classes which convert a spell-casting character to L9 spell-casting?

While I can see how this decision would reduce the chances of creating a "god" PC, it would also have consequences with regard to compatability with Pathfinder. Time-travel adventures would create even more headaches (than normal) for the GM.

It's all in the various Starfinder blogs.
Liberty's Edge
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Skeld wrote:

Bimonthly.

64 pages.

This feels very tentative.

-Skeld

That was exactly my reaction, too. I must confess, amidst all the excitement, this was the bit that left me profoundly uneasy.

When it comes to SF RPGS, we have no shortage of rules. I have more SciFi and SciFant RPG rule systems than I can ever use already. I know this, because I almost never use them. Essentially nobody does and nobody ever has.

It's been a fringe genre since basically forever. The optimist in me says this is mainly because there simply have not been enough high quality adventures to drive any game system forward, mated with a rule system of reward/treasure that presses the same "levelling button" that D&D always has. (Few SF games rules have done levelling outside of Star Wars D20/Saga - and Star Wars D20/Saga never had a pro quality AP. It's just never really been successfully tried before.)

Rules, schmules. What any system needs to actually be used is high quality adventure material. And a lot of it.

I was prepared to assume the AP would be high quality. I had also assumed there would, over time, be a lot of it, too.

Hmmm.

Of course, I guess another point to take away would be that because nobody has successfully done it before, that's mainly because it is risky and might well fail. And Paizo doesn't want to lose a bundle on a failed product line. Might be that what we are really seeing here is a toe in the water to see if their customers are as "in" on all of this as they say they are.

Can't blame Paizo for some prudence and caution. But yes, it can come off as tentative, that's for sure.

Well, whatever the case -- Debbie Downer or not -- I've pre-ordered all of it. If enough of us want to give Paizo more of our money, and more rapidly, they will find reasons to accept it.
Liberty's Edge
1 person marked this as a favorite.
captain yesterday wrote:
WormysQueue wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
It should be noted people already pay 22.99 for campaign setting books, and the module line is 24.99 and also has 64 pages.

Yeah, but if you (like me) expected the comparison to be made be made with the Pathfinder AP issues, it can easily generate a bit of disappointment.

This said, I'm certainly willing to give it a try and see if there's enough backmatter to satisfy my curiosity. What I'm missing at the moment is the pdf option, though.

No doubt, I was a little disappointed at first myself.

Also agree on the pdf.

Yes to all of that.

As for the PDF, given that Paizo has created a business model that sweetens the deal for direct subscription purchasers with an electronic product that A) is essentially created anyway for almost every print product and B) the substantial cost of which has been to create a computerized delivery system for all of it (which is already in place...)

I cannot imagine that in this case they are going to do it differently. I'll take it on faith that in between now and August, all of this will shake out as we have come to expect.
Liberty's Edge
2 people marked this as a favorite.
Bellona wrote:
Where is the information about limiting the new character classes to L6 spell-casting?

It was made explicit in the Q&A Paizo did for their Humble Bundle. You can find it on Twitch by clicking here.

Bellona wrote:
Does this mean that the arcanist, cleric, druid, oracle, psychic, shaman, sorcerer, witch, and wizard classes are completely unavailable for PCs? What about NPCs? Would there be prestige classes which convert a spell-casting character to L9 spell-casting?

9th level spells will exist in the world, and presumably 9th level casters to go with them. They are just starting out with 6th level casters for now.

That said, it's a different game system. None of the existing classes for Pathfinder will be usable straight across.

Bellona wrote:
While I can see how this decision would reduce the chances of creating a "god" PC, it would also have consequences with regard to compatability with Pathfinder. Time-travel adventures would create even more headaches (than normal) for the GM.

This does not appear to be a design concern.

It's likely a cost saving issue. They're putting out three APs a year, that's extra cost for writers, illustrations, and printing. Rather than pay less all around they're just reducing page count and frequency of publication. If it does well, they may increase size and frequency.

Will there be a subscription to this?
Liberty's Edge

64 pages seems a bit low. If the first 48 pages are used for the adventure, that leaves 16 pages for a bestiary and an article.
Liberty's Edge
Paladinosaur wrote:
64 pages seems a bit low. If the first 48 pages are used for the adventure, that leaves 16 pages for a bestiary and an article.

Yes, it seems very low; especially as there has been no setting book announced or on the horizon.

Now it may be the Core RB will differ and we will find a great deal more setting material in there than we have come to expect.

But yeah, this seems very light to begin with, no question about it.
The Exchange
Paladinosaur wrote:
64 pages seems a bit low. If the first 48 pages are used for the adventure, that leaves 16 pages for a bestiary and an article.

On the other hand, the AP players' guides prove that 16 pages can still mean a lot of stuff, so depending on how they use it, it may still mean that we can get a lot of use out of it. Just to go with the blurb, it could mean for example 6 pages of setting expansion and rules, 6 pages with Monsters, 2 pages new planet and 2 pages new ship. Sounds not too shabby.

Too much speculation, though, I guess we'll have to wait for future blog articles to get more insight ^^.
Liberty's Edge
WormysQueue wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:
64 pages seems a bit low. If the first 48 pages are used for the adventure, that leaves 16 pages for a bestiary and an article.

On the other hand, the AP players' guides prove that 16 pages can still mean a lot of stuff, so depending on how they use it, it may still mean that we can get a lot of use out of it. Just to go with the blurb, it could mean for example 6 pages of setting expansion and rules, 6 pages with Monsters, 2 pages new planet and 2 pages new ship. Sounds not too shabby.

Too much speculation, though, I guess we'll have to wait for future blog articles to get more insight ^^.

Well, a 6-page bestiary would mean only 2 new monsters in the PF format. But now I'm wondering if we're getting a Player's guide with this.

Steel_Wind wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:
64 pages seems a bit low. If the first 48 pages are used for the adventure, that leaves 16 pages for a bestiary and an article.

Yes, it seems very low; especially as there has been no setting book announced or on the horizon.

Now it may be the Core RB will differ and we will find a great deal more setting material in there than we have come to expect.

But yeah, this seems very light to begin with, no question about it.

@Steel_Wind: the Starfinder CRB is also the setting. So there is no "setting book" outside of the CRB; plus (in time) whatever supplements are released down the line to detail more parts and deeper layers of the campaign setting.

Wow, I just noticed it was only 64 pages.
Liberty's Edge
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Sounds cool! Very Deep Space Nine!
The Exchange
Paladinosaur wrote:
Well, a 6-page bestiary would mean only 2 new monsters in the PF format. But now I'm wondering if we're getting a Player's guide with this.

While I was thinking 3 Monsters (2 pages per critter), they could easily fit monsters on one page if they wanted, so it could also mean 6. As I said, there's too much speculation at the Moment.

Dark Archive

A normal Pathfinder adventure ends on page 55 of a 96 page AP.

Page 1: "The Index & credits page" will likely stay.

Page 2 & 3: "The Foreword" could now be 1 page or left away.

Page 4: "Advancement track" could stay as it is or fall away.

Page 5: "Adventure background" will likely stay.

Page 6-55: "The adventure" could stay at 50 pages or be a little shorter.

Page 56-61: "Npc Gallery" will probably be incorporated into the adventure. If not, it will probably be 3 pages, not 6.

Page 62-67: "Gazetteer" will be about "Absalom Station, the orbital habitat that serves as humanity's home in the Pact Worlds"
(The planets of the Pact Worlds will be detailed in the Starfinder Core Rulebook).

Page 68-73: "Ecology": "a new planet to explore and starship to pilot".

Page 74-79: "Journal/Fiction": Will be left away.

Page 80-92: "Bestiary/Alien Archive" will probably be smaller and include "a selection of new monsters from a variety of alien worlds" (my guess is 3 creatures not 5).

Page 93-96: "Advertisements": will probably be 1-2 pages.

So it is certainly possible to create a great adventure on 64 pages.
If you compare the size and price to Pathfinder APs, it is 32 pages fewer for a $2 fewer.
But "Science Fantasy" has never been as popular as "fantasy" roleplay in human history and the lower page count is probably a way to finance a lower print run that needs to show how much it will sell.
If APs #1-6 sell very well, the print run for APs #7-12 may be higher and eventually include more pages.
But that´s a financial decision that can not be made now.
Shisumo wrote:
Bellona wrote:
Where is the information about limiting the new character classes to L6 spell-casting?

It was made explicit in the Q&A Paizo did for their Humble Bundle. You can find it on Twitch by clicking here.

Bellona wrote:
Does this mean that the arcanist, cleric, druid, oracle, psychic, shaman, sorcerer, witch, and wizard classes are completely unavailable for PCs? What about NPCs? Would there be prestige classes which convert a spell-casting character to L9 spell-casting?

9th level spells will exist in the world, and presumably 9th level casters to go with them. They are just starting out with 6th level casters for now.

That said, it's a different game system. None of the existing classes for Pathfinder will be usable straight across.

Bellona wrote:
While I can see how this decision would reduce the chances of creating a "god" PC, it would also have consequences with regard to compatability with Pathfinder. Time-travel adventures would create even more headaches (than normal) for the GM.

This does not appear to be a design concern.

Thanks for the info - while I'm looking forward to the new game/setting, I haven't been keeping up with all the hints and news released through third parties.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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What exactly does "a series of interconnected science-fantasy quests that together create a fully developed plot of sweeping scale and epic challenges" mean?

I have never seen a normal pathfinder AP described in this way. It is always just assumed that the adventure content is one story, but this description seems more like the modules "plunder&peril" and "gallows of madness" where there are separate adventures that can be linked.
Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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Steel_Wind wrote:
(Few SF games rules have done levelling outside of Star Wars D20/Saga - and Star Wars D20/Saga never had a pro quality AP. It's just never really been successfully tried before.)

As one of the authors of the Dawn of Defiance complete campaign for Star Wars Saga, which was available for free from WotC, I wouldn't agree with that characterization. :)

Not to mention owning Fading Suns d20, and having written for for Dark Matter in d20 Modern and Gamma World d20.
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I am just spit balling here but what if Starfinder First Contact is 16 pages of supplemental material for use with Incident at Absalom Station and Incident at Absalom Station is an entire adventure in itself. Then going forward the other 5 adventure path books are 96 pages each.
Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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There will be a subscription for this. Details to come when we're completely ready, a calculation that involves things like computer code and what have you. So please be patient on that front. It is coming. Details on subscription benefits likewise will come when they too are ready.

Size and frequency of the Starfinder Adventure Path is a realistic pace given the staff resources we have available for this project and the desire to get it right out of the gate. If the audience is there and people want larger volumes and the sales are there, we'll possibly adjust things. We're shaking up orthodoxies a bit with Starfinder in a way that we can't with Pathfinder. That means exploring different product configurations, etc.

One way that the pre-release interest in Starfinder has already influenced things is a significantly larger Core Rulebook than originally conceived, as well as plans for more accessories like Flip-Mats and for more frequent releases of product in the main rulebook line (albeit smaller books than those in the Pathfinder line, generally speaking). This latter development somewhat offsets the need of the non-adventure part of the Adventure Path to do heavy lifting on setting development and presentation of character options and stuff.

If you want to call bi-monthly 64-page volumes "tentative," I can't disagree with you. If the audience is there, we'll expand the line accordingly.

Absalom was not built in a single day. :)

Thank you, Mr. Mona.
Liberty's Edge
Erik Mona wrote:
Absalom was not built in a single day. :)

...but Absalom station might have been. :]

CBDunkerson wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Absalom was not built in a single day. :)
...but Absalom station might have been. :]

Built... Conjured... Tomayto, Tomawto.

Marc Radle wrote:

Sounds cool! Very Deep Space Nine!

And/or very Babylon Five! :)

Liberty's Edge
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We need more info on the Pact and how the Pact Worlds govern themselves. Is it like a interplanetary UN? Does the Pact actually have any authority over its member worlds? Given that several of the planets described in Distant Worlds have separate nation-states, are there separate representatives for each nation, or is there a unifying governmental force for every world now? How many of the solar system's planets aren't members of the Pact? Does the Pact claim jurisdiction over the entire solar system, or are non-signatory worlds recognized as sovereign? Is the Diaspora a member of the Pact, or a bunch of members, or does someone else claim it (Eox maybe?)?

Most importantly, if the Trade Federation is blockading my planet, is the Pact where I go to begin my rise to declaring myself Emperor?
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The crew at Paizo is not stupid. They have learned from the countless corpses of dead game companies. Starfinder is a risk. If the ongoing demand does not justify the resources they put into it, then they lose money. Going a bit cautious on the first AP makes good sense. When they have a better idea how people react and how big the market is, they will adjust accordingly. If lots of people like it and demand two 96-page AP's a year, they'll figure out how to make that happen. If the demand is less, they'll have to figure out a balance where they make people as happy as they can while staying profitable.

Pfft. I demand two 96 page Starfinder Products per month. But Paizo doesnt listen to me anymore... :(
Scarab Sages
Philo Pharynx wrote:
The crew at Paizo is not stupid. They have learned from the countless corpses of dead game companies. Starfinder is a risk. If the ongoing demand does not justify the resources they put into it, then they lose money. Going a bit cautious on the first AP makes good sense. When they have a better idea how people react and how big the market is, they will adjust accordingly. If lots of people like it and demand two 96-page AP's a year, they'll figure out how to make that happen. If the demand is less, they'll have to figure out a balance where they make people as happy as they can while staying profitable.

Yes, but there's also a signaling problem. I was very excited about being a charter subscriber for Starfinder when I assumed it would be an AP of the same basic length and parameters as Pathfinder. But to find out that it's 64 pages every other month instead of 96 every month? That signals that they do not have faith in this product, because they are only putting enough resources into it to produce a very small fraction of what they do for Pathfinder. It also signals that there's not going to be very much content for the system for at least a couple of years. All of which makes people less likely to subscribe to it, because of doubt that it'll even be around in a year, and because even if it is, it'd be better to purchase it then, when there's actually enough content to take advantage of.

Well, i am still super excited!

Even if it's just one adventure path (though i highly doubt that).
Grand Lodge
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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Duiker wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
The crew at Paizo is not stupid. They have learned from the countless corpses of dead game companies. Starfinder is a risk. If the ongoing demand does not justify the resources they put into it, then they lose money. Going a bit cautious on the first AP makes good sense. When they have a better idea how people react and how big the market is, they will adjust accordingly. If lots of people like it and demand two 96-page AP's a year, they'll figure out how to make that happen. If the demand is less, they'll have to figure out a balance where they make people as happy as they can while staying profitable.
Yes, but there's also a signaling problem. I was very excited about being a charter subscriber for Starfinder when I assumed it would be an AP of the same basic length and parameters as Pathfinder. But to find out that it's 64 pages every other month instead of 96 every month? That signals that they do not have faith in this product, because they are only putting enough resources into it to produce a very small fraction of what they do for Pathfinder. It also signals that there's not going to be very much content for the system for at least a couple of years. All of which makes people less likely to subscribe to it, because of doubt that it'll even be around in a year, and because even if it is, it'd be better to purchase it then, when there's actually enough content to take advantage of.

Pathfinder didn't launch with much content either. It started as a monthly thing, but that was to replace the two monthly things Paizo was losing. At first, the Modules were completely separate from the Pathfinder AP. The first of what became the Campaign Setting line didn't start until the first AP was complete. It was over two years before the first Player Companion came out. If Paizo didn't have confidence in Starfinder as a product line, they wouldn't have announced it.

Lisa et al have talked on multiple occasions over the years about how the proliferation of campaign settings cannibalized their customer base and essentially forced TSR out of business. What were seeing here is a slow and deliberate roll out of a new product line with the express purpose of not repeating TSR's past mistakes.

-Skeld
Dark Archive

I disagree.
64 pages for $22.99 every 2 months is considerably different from 96 pages for $24.99 ($19.99 is not doable anymore) every month.

Starfinder is already "cannibalizing" Pathfinder, if only very little (3 months gap in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, which means loosing roughly $69 per subscriber and an unknown amount from casual buyers).
Paizo doesn't have enough developers/contributors to continue to publish the Pathfinder products totally uninterrupted.
That is a fact.
They gamble (probably rightly) on selling enough Starfinder products to make up for that losses.
In my case, i would have bought the 3 PF Campaign Settings and i WILL buy the Starfinder Core Rulebook and first AP. So they loose $69 they could have made (if more developers would have been available), but gain $60 plus $138, plus money for flip-mats and Pawns - IN MY CASE.

There are others who are not interested in sci-fi.

Initial pre-orders are likely already high enough to make the gamble pay off, because people rightly trust Paizo's product quality and are curious for Starfinder.

But the sales numbers of later products beyond august will decide the future of Starfinder.
Dark Archive
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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On the otherhand, yay I get more time to buy older materials :D
Philo Pharynx wrote:
The crew at Paizo is not stupid. They have learned from the countless corpses of dead game companies. Starfinder is a risk. If the ongoing demand does not justify the resources they put into it, then they lose money. Going a bit cautious on the first AP makes good sense. When they have a better idea how people react and how big the market is, they will adjust accordingly.

I don't know how many people saw the playtest design for Starfinder. I didn't miss the first one. What I saw was potential. The Starfinder RPG should be able to replace Star Wars for "space fantasy" RPGs. It (the Starfinder Core Rules) should sell well, and a number of 3rd Party projects should support it while it runs.

In short, a lot of potential can be tapped.
Grand Lodge
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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Marco Massoudi wrote:

I disagree.

64 pages for $22.99 every 2 months is considerably different from 96 pages for $24.99 ($19.99 is not doable anymore) every month.

I think you sorta missed my point and I think your analysis is a little off.

You're right that a Pathfinder AP is 96 pages for $24.99. However, keep in mind that the AP is Paizo's flagship product and the product they've built their brand around. I expect that the AP operates on a slimmer profit margin than their other print products because it's the product that they use to get people into the door for buying other products (which can have higher profit margins because they aren't "necessary"). Notice they've been very reluctant to raise AP prices over the past 10 years because they don't want to hurt sales of the gateway product.
You're also right that a Starfinder AP is 64 pages for $22.99. Look at the other Pathfinder products that are 64 pages: Modules and Campaign Settings. Modules sell for $24.99, but also include a double-sided poster map that, undoubtedly, increases the cost. Campaign Setting books are straight-up 64 pages for $22.99.
Modules and Campaign settings aren't flagship products and are a better point of comparison.

All that is kinda beside the point I was initially making anyway, which was that Pathfinder didn't start out very aggressively; it was a monthly adventure book that replaced a couple of monthly adventure mags. Starfinder is starting out even less aggressively and that makes sense. The Starfinder AP might become a flagship product eventually, but they aren't trying to force it to be one right out of the gate.

Marco Massoudi wrote:

Starfinder is already "cannibalizing" Pathfinder, if only very little (3 months gap in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, which means loosing roughly $69 per subscriber and an unknown amount from casual buyers).

Paizo doesn't have enough developers/contributors to continue to publish the Pathfinder products totally uninterrupted.
That is a fact.
They gamble (probably rightly) on selling enough Starfinder products to make up for that losses.
In my case, i would have bought the 3 PF Campaign Settings and i WILL buy the Starfinder Core Rulebook and first AP. So they loose $69 they could have made (if more developers would have been available), but gain $60 plus $138, plus money for flip-mats and Pawns - IN MY CASE.

We might be using slightly different definitions of the term "cannibalize." I'm using it in the sense that a company is creating products that are actively competing for a limited number of customers, effectively competing with themselves. The people running Paizo have commented that this is something TSR did that contributed to its downfall. They are cognizant of it and have taken steps to mitigate it. The fact that they aren't producing some of their normal products at the same time sorta shows that they're trying to limit the amount of customers saying to themselves "do I buy the Pathfinder thing or the Starfinder thing this month" because there might not be a Pathfinder thing. I also think the dearth of PF products leading up to Starfinder's release is a sign that Paizo is aware that a non-trivial segment of their customers have sotra reached their limit on what they're willing to shell out for subs each month. That might be another reason for Starfinder's slower pace; it doesn't hurt the wallet as much to keep up with it.

Regarding not having enough developers/designers, that's probably true. If I were launching a new product, I'd rather use existing staff do it, especially if i have the money to float a little with the cutback in other product lines. I definitely would not want to hire new people, hit a bump in te road with the new product and have to let people go. that would really, really suck for me and the people that took a new job, only to get a layoff notice a few months later. Good employees are your number one asset and i wouldn't want to completely wear them out producing more sustained outflow than I've done before and I'd want to make sure I had a stable product to work on before I thought about hiring.

I don't know anything though. These are just some thoughts that make sense to me.

-Skeld
Grand Lodge
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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Also, a few less Paizo products for a couple months means that I might have enough hobby money left over to buy a upgraded bumper and winch for my Jeep and I am totally down with that.

-Skeld
Erik Mona wrote:

Size and frequency of the Starfinder Adventure Path is a realistic pace given the staff resources we have available for this project and the desire to get it right out of the gate. If the audience is there and people want larger volumes and the sales are there, we'll possibly adjust things. We're shaking up orthodoxies a bit with Starfinder in a way that we can't with Pathfinder. That means exploring different product configurations, etc.

Any word on what this means for organized play? The description makes me think that this product either will share more with organized scenarios, OR is the first bit of content for organized play.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We have not announced an Organized Play component for Starfinder.

How many hours it usually took to finish a volume?
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