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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Intrigue (PFRPG)
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Words Cut Deep

In the right setting, a single scathing word can prove deadlier than a poisoned dagger. Behind the scenes of heroic battles and magical realms lies a seething underbelly of danger and deception. This world of intrigue holds endless possibilities for adventure, as heroes duel with words instead of steel, plot daring heists, and engage in battles of wills against relentless nemeses. A high-stakes game of shadows and secrets is yours to master—if you have the wits!

Whether the heroes are taming the blood-soaked back alleys of their favorite metropolis or jockeying for the queen's favor alongside highborn nobles, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue is an invaluable companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an Open Playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue includes:

  • The vigilante, a new character class that lives two lives—that of an unassuming member of the community, and a cloaked crusader with his own agenda!
  • New archetypes for alchemists, bards, druids, hunters, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, slayers, spiritualists, and more!
  • New feats and magic items for characters of all sorts, granting mastery of street-smart combat, impenetrable disguises, and misdirection.
  • Dozens of spells to manipulate tense social settings, whether to reveal adversaries' secrets or hide the truth.
  • A complete system of influence, providing new goals and rewards to challenge players and link their fortunes to nonplayer characters and organizations.
  • Systems and advice to help Game Masters introduce a variety of new encounters into their games­—daring heists, extended pursuits, and tense searches for buried secrets.
  • Rules for social combat and verbal duels, allowing characters to use words as weapons to sway hearts and humiliate foes.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-826-7

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A Must-Have for Heavy RP Games

5/5 —

Okay, let's get into Ultimate Intrigue! As the title implies, the purpose of this book is to help flesh out more subtle elements of the game: things like spreading rumors, rallying a crowd, stealing secrets, and other classic cloak-and-dagger stuff. I've used bits and pieces of it in previous campaigns, but read through it carefully (and incorporated a fair bit of it) for my current Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, as that adventure path is designed around urban political strife. Boiled down to brass tacks, the book is a 256 page hardcover comprised of six chapters. The full-colour artwork is very strong throughout, and the cover is great (though Merisiel's legs are like three times longer than her torso!). There's a very short two-page introduction that summarises each chapter--which is what I'm going to do anyway.

Chapter 1 is "Classes" (60 pages). The big deal here is a new base case, the Vigilante. The concept is that the character has both a normal (social) identity and a masked identity, with certain class options only working while in the associated guise. There are also several safeguards to help keep anyone from figuring out that Bruce Wayne is really Batman. I have a Vigilante character in Pathfinder Society, and one of my players runs one in Curse of the Crimson Throne. I think the class is perfect for an urban campaign mostly set in a single city (especially with lots room for intrigue), but it doesn't work as well with the more traditional "travelling adventuring party" campaign. It's a bit too obvious when five newcomers arrive in town, only for one of them to "disappear" and a new costumed avenger show up. I know there are also some gamers who dislike what can seem like the awkward introduction of comic book super heroes into their fantasy role-playing. For me, I think the concept works well--though as I said, only in particular types of campaigns.

A large chunk of the chapter is devoted to new archetypes for other classes. More specifically, alchemists, bards, cavaliers, druids, inquisitors, investigators, mesmerists, rangers, rogues, skalds, spiritualists, swashbucklers, and vigilantes get some love. Frankly, a lot of the archetypes are fairly forgettable, but there are exceptions--for example, a Daring General Cavalier would be great in military campaigns, the Dandy Ranger could be really useful in an urban campaign, and a couple of the vigilante archetypes are perfect if you want to play the Hulk or Spider-Man. Although the rogue archetypes aren't very good, there are several excellent rogue talents that focus on making the character harder to track through divination, etc. It's worth nothing that this book came out during the period when the hardcover line was still setting-neutral, so there won't be any Golarion-specific flavour with the archetypes (for better or worse depending on your preferences).

Chapter 2 is "Feats" (24 pages). There's something like 110 new feats in the chapter, and probably something for everyone. Given the book's theme, many of the feats are related to sneaking around, hiding and disguising spells, stealing stuff, making plans, figuring out when you're being to lied to, etc. A few that I particularly like include Brilliant Planner (giving you the chance to have just what you need just when you need it), Call Truce (giving a slim chance to actually end combat peacefully when its underway), and Drunkard's Recovery (silly but fun). A couple of important feats are Conceal Spell (which hides the pesky manifestations that spells create in Pathfinder) and Fencing Grace (adding Dex to damage with rapiers, a favourite of swashbucklers everywhere). Overall, I thought the options presented were well-written and plausible in terms of desirability.

Chapter 3 is "Mastering Intrigue" (68 pages). This is probably the most important chapter in the book for GMs. It offers tons of useful advice, as well as clarification on some tricky game mechanics, to help run intrigue-based games. The pages about how common magic spells can be handled while still preserving mysteries, secrets, and misdirection is pure gold. The chapter also introduces seven new rules sub-systems, any or all of which can be incorporated into a campaign to flesh out certain aspects of gameplay. "Influence" is a sub-system that deepens the process of persuading a person or organisation to support you. Instead of a simple single Dipomacy check, PCs need to make certain skill checks to learn a person's interests and weaknesses, and then other skill checks to take advantage of what they've learned. The process operates through multiple phases of tracked successes and failures, and can be tied to mechanical favours and benefits. It's become a very popular facet of many Pathfinder Society scenarios, and I think it's a pretty clever way to handle things--though it can be a bit clunky at first. "Heists" is a sub-system that contains some excellent advice to GMs on how to structure things so players don't obsess over unimportant trivia and are willing to violate that old canard of "don't split the party." "Infiltration" contains some quick advice, but that's about it. "Leadership" deepens the feat of the same name, adding lots of rules for interacting with other sub-systems both in this book and in Ultimate Campaign. I'm personally still not persuaded that the Leadership feat chain is a good inclusion to the game. "Nemeses" is all about adding a recurring villain; I think it's trying to systematise something that could be handled just fine without it. Though there are some fun suggestions on evil plots to foil. "Pursuit" is a little like the Chase sub-system from the GameMastery Guide but stretched out over hours and days cross-country instead of in minutes through alleyways. I could imagine using it. "Research" is probably my favourite of the sub-systems, and one I've used in multiple campaigns. In essence, it gives the PCs a reason to use things like libraries and archives by giving them bonuses to their Knowledge checks, but then makes gaining different thresholds of information the result of multiple successful checks. Overall, a great chapter--I wish the Influence and Research sub-systems had been in the Core Rulebook, because they really add a lot to the non-combat aspects of the game.

Chapter 4 is "Social Combat" (25 pages). The idea here is to present GMs with options on how to handle social conflicts--things like debates, trials, cutting repartee, etc. There's also a "verbal duels" sub-system. I'm just not sure about it--it's something I'd have to see in practice. However, a really useful part of the chapter is advice to the GM on how to handle the various social skills in the game--Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive--as well as the intrigue skills like Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. The advice here is excellent, and I just stopped in the middle of this review to reread it.

Chapter 5 is "Spells" (40 pages). You can judge from the length of the chapter that there's a ton of new spells, and every spellcasting class will find something. One of the fun things the chapter introduces is a new "ruse" descriptor for spells, which means the spell is easily mistaken for another even by observers trained in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana). It's a good way to mislead folks who have played way too much Pathfinder. There are some really clever spells in this section, with a couple of my favourites including false resurrection (instead of bringing back a soul, you stuff a demon into the body!) and the hilarious shamefully overdressed.

Chapter 6 is "Gear and Magic Items" (22 pages). There are some new mundane pieces of equipment (weapons like the cool wrist dart launcher, alchemical items, etc.) but most of the chapter is new magic items with an intrigue theme. The one that really stuck out at me was the launcher of distraction, which is perfect for assassination attempts because it makes it seem like the attack is coming from somewhere else.

Overall, I think Ultimate Intrigue is an excellent book. It's pretty much a must-have in my opinion for any campaign that's going to involve a lot of role-playing or that moves beyond traditional dungeon crawling and wilderness encounters. Even readers not involved in "intrigue campaigns" per se are sure to find plenty of material they can use.

1/5 —

Don't get me wrong I love Paizo books, I love their work, and I'm proud to own almost all of their publications.

However, Ultimate Intrigue is the one book I regret buying. It's even more than that, it's the one book i regret they ever published.

We need rules and systems, ok. We need a magic system because magic isn't a real thing. We need a combat system otherwise playing with your grilfriend become home abuse. But we don't need a social system because it's a ROLEPLAYING game. Either you want intrigue heavy campaign and you roleplay them, or you want to dungeon crawl or investigate (that's fine too) and you don't play intrigues. You can even do both and it's great.

Aside from that massive problem, the book suffers from "a turn normal actions into feats/class ability" syndrome. I can't count the number of time where players made me fighters to wizards or rogues with a dual identity. We didn't need the Vigilante, and still don't. And I loved when wizard use to get clever and ask for linguistics/bluff roll to blend a spell into a phrase. Now you need a feat for it. Thanks, Ultimate Intrigue. If that was not enough, some of these nonsense feat are built in feat tax chains.

But the one thing I hate the most about this book is the stupid FAQ it bestowed upon us to promote itself (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tza). That makes a whole school of magic (illusion) utterly useless, and destroys a lot of others (enchantment).

Now I know I can just refuse to use it. But i use to love pathfinder for the clarity and perfect sense with out need to houserule much.

Now it's gone.

I'm tired of paizo trying to stuff this book down our face

1/5 —

If I was playing a home campaign this book might be more fitting,

For society play this verbal debate and other ideas for this book really bog down the game play. I like social aspect of games and role playing but as I said society play it slows the game way down to try and get people up to snuff on the mechanics

An amazing new class in a hit and miss supplement

4/5 —

So, Ultimate Intrigue took a long time for me to come to a complete opinion on.

The Vigilante class introduced in this book is, in my opinion, easily the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has ever created. It breaks up its social options and combat options in such a way that you have a great character able to participate in all areas of the game without having to choose whether you want to be competent in combat or in the myriad other facets of the game like exploration, social encounters, etc. It has deep and well-designed talents that allow you to pick any of a variety of different ways to participate in combat, with or without weapons, and numerous tools for allowing players to influence the story with safe houses, contacts, and more.

At PAX Prime 2016 I had the opportunity to visit Paizo's Pathfinder demo area and play their pregenerated vigilante character. I honestly didn't expect it to go terribly well; after all, the vigilante is a class built around balancing two identities and moving between different social strata, so you'd think that this would require a more controlled environment where you know the other players in advance and have time to plan out how your character fits into the game world with your GM ahead of time, right? Turns out, I was wrong. The vigilante class is well-crafted enough that even while playing a 1st level pregen I was able to easily deal with situations in and out of combat, and it took me about 60 seconds of conversation to establish with the group that I had a secret identity they were privy to and might need them to cover for my character from time to time if he needed to swap identities. It didn't hurt matters that the only downside to anyone learning a vigilante's secret identity is that, well, they know his or her secret identity. You can go all Tony Stark if you want, announce that you are Iron Man, and carry on as normal. Very few of the vigilante's abilities actually require you to maintain truly secret identities, and the only real hit you take is that you're a bit easier to find by magical means (though even this can be addressed with clever use of the Safe House Social Talent).

The book also elaborates on the intent behind numerous spells that often prove problematic for GMs in games where they want to have a focus on gritty investigation of mystery, such as the various detect spells, speak with dead, etc.

I think my biggest disappointments with the book, and the reason I can't give it 5 stars, lie in the feats and archetypes. I'll start with the feats, and a bit about why I see most of them as representative of missed opportunities.

To start with, Pathfinder's skill system is heavily dated. When Paizo brought it over from 3.5, they combined a few extraneous skills, but otherwise did little to update things, meaning the core area of the rules covering everything in the game that isn't casting spells or hitting things is now well over a decade old and out of date. Several skills don't even actually work, or work well, as written, have interactions you're just supposed to kind of assume or make up (Ride and Handle Animal are a mess, Stealth requires one to check out FAQs and blog posts online to use as intended, Bluff and Diplomacy have more than a few vague areas and inconsistencies, etc.), so what better book to address, update, and expand these core components of the game than a book about playing skill and intrigue heavy campaigns? Unfortunately, Paizo chose not to go that route, instead relying on feats to stretch skills over their gaps and issues, leading to many of the feats in the this book providing skill uses that I've seen GMs at hundreds of tables houserule as basic functions of those skills to begin with. Instead of formalizing intuitive uses of existing skills into their basic function, they added a feat tax to allow characters to do things many people already thought they could do. While there is a section in the book going over several of the vague areas in a few key skills, these are primarily common sense clarifications instead of the full address the skills could have used.

The archetypes, like many Paizo hardcovers, are all over the place. Some of them are interesting and dynamic, like the Masked Performer bard archetype, some show an attempt at embodying a cool and modern concept but fail to achieve that concept in the actual execution, like the Magical Child vigilante archetype, and some are just plain bad, so obviously terribly designed that you almost wonder if the person who wrote them has ever actually played Pathfinder, like the Brute vigilante archetype.

Now, don't let the above wall of negativity mislead you; there is a lot of great stuff in this book, including perhaps the most inspired and well-crafted class Paizo has ever produced, a class that introduces really interesting design concepts, plays with components of the class chassis we haven't seen classes treat as quite so malleable before, and is a genuinely fun and interesting class to play in and of itself. Despite many of the feats ranging from useless to frustrating, there are still quite a few that are interesting and viable, and while the archetypes are very hit or miss, that's generally true of Paizo books in general and probably shouldn't be held against this one in particular.

My final verdict on Ultimate Intrigue is 4 stars, and a strong recommendation to pick it up, if for no other reason than to add the Vigilante class to your game (though there definitely are other reasons to add this book to your collection).

Pathfinder presents Batman!

4/5 —

No seriously. The vigilante class is freaking batman. Look at the art for chapter one and for the character. HE'S BATMAN. Of course they also have archetypes if you want to make Hulk, Sailor Moon, even He-Man. With the archetypes from other books the list goes on.
My favorite part, and I cannot wait to test this properly in a game, is the social combat. It works a lot like playing craps or roulette. You get a pool of Determination points which you use to place a bet then you roll off with your social skills check! Seriously it sounds like lots of fun!

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Community Manager
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Now available for preorder! Cover image is a mockup and subject to change.
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Quote:
…and much, much more!

Oh come on, again? We've gotten "and much, much more!" in practically every product.

Community Manager
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Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
Quote:
…and much, much more!
Oh come on, again? We've gotten "and much, much more!" in practically every product.

We do like to be consistent about giving y'all "much much more" in our books. :D

I'm interested in the social combat system. Be interesting to see how that gets handled.

It would be nice for more skill options for non-skill focused classes.

Very interested in this book.

I just hope that the class options, feats, and spells are not tied to the Social Combat System...as I really do not like those.
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Personally, I don't have much interest in another "social combat" system, because Pathfinder already has two that I like (the social combat system in the Necropunk Campaign Setting book and the one in Ultimate Charisma). I doubt I could get much value out of having a third, mutually-incompatible set of rules for the same thing. I mean, I like having several different magic systems in the game, but only because I can use them in the same campaign. I can have one PC use power points, one use Vancian, one use composition magic, one PC use spheres of power magic, and a fifth PC use ethermagic, and they all work as a party. But most "social combat" mechanics are designed such that either everyone has to use them, or no one can. Hence, it isn't normally possible to use multiple social combat systems in the same campaign.
Granted, it's possible that this social combat system will be so awesome that I will decide to use it and stop using the others. But it would have to be significantly better to get me to switch, and that is unlikely.

As usual, though, I'll reserve my ultimate verdict until I actually see it.

Everything in this book looks interesting to me, except the Vigilante class...well I am basing this expectation of the class on what I saw in the play test if things have changed since then I may give it another look.
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Apparently according so some random podcast or something the Vigilante class itself is going to combine the Rogue and Fighter variants into the base class then make the Wizard and Cleric variants into actual archetypes.
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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Apparently according so some random podcast or something the Vigilante class itself is going to combine the Rogue and Fighter variants into the base class then make the Wizard and Cleric variants into actual archetypes.

I guess that's better than the original idea. Still it would all depend on how good the rogue and fighter mechanics are...the whole alter ego thing is still not something I'll get used to anytime soon, and this is from someone who used to read a lot of superhero comics.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Apparently according so some random podcast or something the Vigilante class itself is going to combine the Rogue and Fighter variants into the base class then make the Wizard and Cleric variants into actual archetypes.

Iirc, it that information was said by Jason at a con. Also, I am sooooo thankful that they are doing that. Sounds much better than the playtest.

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Will the Vigilante get an armor bonus if he paints a large skull on his chest?
limsk wrote:
Will the Vigilante get an armor bonus if he paints a large skull on his chest?

I'd be inclined to make a symbol that adds to Intimidate rolls require it be purchased as a masterwork tool.

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I wasn't very impressed with the Vigilante class but there are plenty of other things in this book that will be interesting.

Me likey already!
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Milo v3 wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Apparently according so some random podcast or something the Vigilante class itself is going to combine the Rogue and Fighter variants into the base class then make the Wizard and Cleric variants into actual archetypes.
Iirc, it that information was said by Jason at a con. Also, I am sooooo thankful that they are doing that. Sounds much better than the playtest.

Does anyone have a link to this podcast/con comment? I'd love to check that out. I really dig the potential and flavor of the Vigilante class and I like a lot of the talents I saw for the Warlock, but like others here I had a lot of reservations about the playtest. I'm very curious about the final product (I maaaaaaaay be playing a city-based game after this comes out).

Dark Archive
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The vigilante playtest was awful.
Also my players did not like social combat so far (and me neither) because it often takes away roleplaying opportunities.
I will have to wait and see till the actual book is out.

I am much more excited for ULTIMATE HORROR!
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As long as Paizo avoids overall power creep, then I like the idea of these genre books. When I look Occult Adventures, I see evidence that these can be good.
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You know, for all of you saying "nay" to what has been dubbed "social combat", please be more open-minded.

Not everyone cares to roleplay hardcore. Not everyone can even roleplay Charisma 18+. I highly doubt there is a significant number of people who can actually roleplay someone with Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate bonuses in the "+20 range" or higher (or even +10s!). Heck, some people into TTRPGs are socially awkward, and to their attempts at RPing someone with high Diplomacy bonuses tends to be more similar to someone with a Charisma of 5 and no ranks trying to persuade you instead.

Some people are trying to play a fantasy version of themselves or just play something else entirely unlike them at all. We can't keep setting this standard of expecting everyone to roleplay through everything. No one, not even GMs, can explain exactly how a person with +30 Diplomacy managed to convince the lich to give up and hand over his phylactery, for example. Or manage politicians as smoothly as Tyrion Lannister in "Game of Thrones."

This is what dice rolling is for! And systems similar to "social combat."

It's purpose is to aid those who can't really roleplay on those kinds of levels, but in the mind's eye this is what their character is capable of. No one here can roleplay an Intelligence of 26 can they? Is anyone here truly capable of roleplaying someone with Wisdom of 22 properly? Exactly.

For all the gripe about people needing to "roleplay through almost all social situations", some people here tend to forget about the fact that the game also involves imagination. You may say "I roll Diplomacy to persuade the enemy to give up", but leave it up to the imagination to figure out how that was done.

I, for one, would love the systems involved in this book. It can make people truly feel like they were part of a campaign similar to "Game of Thrones" without actually needing a PhD in acting and somehow getting their real life skills and Charisma to match their characters. I actually have a few players that can benefit from this. One is particularly quiet and a little bit nervewracking when he tries to RP a character he has built to be way more social and intelligent than he himself is IRL, but he tries and I award effort.

But I also like that systems like what this book is presenting can make him feel like his character is capable of accomplishing something, also.
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Barachiel Shina wrote:

You know, for all of you saying "nay" to what has been dubbed "social combat", please be more open-minded.

Not everyone cares to roleplay hardcore. Not everyone can even roleplay Charisma 18+. I highly doubt there is a significant number of people who can actually roleplay someone with Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate bonuses in the "+20 range" or higher (or even +10s!). Heck, some people into TTRPGs are socially awkward, and to their attempts at RPing someone with high Diplomacy bonuses tends to be more similar to someone with a Charisma of 5 and no ranks trying to persuade you instead.

Some people are trying to play a fantasy version of themselves or just play something else entirely unlike them at all. We can't keep setting this standard of expecting everyone to roleplay through everything. No one, not even GMs, can explain exactly how a person with +30 Diplomacy managed to convince the lich to give up and hand over his phylactery, for example. Or manage politicians as smoothly as Tyrion Lannister in "Game of Thrones."

This is what dice rolling is for! And systems similar to "social combat."

It's purpose is to aid those who can't really roleplay on those kinds of levels, but in the mind's eye this is what their character is capable of. No one here can roleplay an Intelligence of 26 can they? Is anyone here truly capable of roleplaying someone with Wisdom of 22 properly? Exactly.

For all the gripe about people needing to "roleplay through almost all social situations", some people here tend to forget about the fact that the game also involves imagination. You may say "I roll Diplomacy to persuade the enemy to give up", but leave it up to the imagination to figure out how that was done.

I, for one, would love the systems involved in this book. It can make people truly feel like they were part of a campaign similar to "Game of Thrones" without actually needing a PhD in acting and somehow getting their real life skills and Charisma to match their characters. I actually have a few players that...

But than again I don't know a GM with a actual Sense Motive or etc of +20...

Listen I get that people see the need for such a system...I just don't for a number of reasons...

1) As your example I don't want to be in game where a PC can convince somebody to act completely outside of their own interest like convincing lich to give up and hand over his phylactery.

2) Social situation are the one part of the game where you can be more than the sum of the numbers of your character sheets and are not tied down by the rules of the game as heavy. Creating a Social Combat System to me just seems kinda of destroys that feel.

3) I am a social awkward person... RPing my way through social situation actually helped me be less socially awkward.

So please be more open minded that their are people out there who don't want a 'Social Combat' system. But you are getting it...I just hoped that it is more on the level of the Word of power optional system...than being hardwired into 90% of the archetypes, feats and spells...so the book has some use for me.

I agree with you about the social combat system completely Kretzer.
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Personally, I prefer to actually look at a system before I judge it :P
Verdant Wheel
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Having a combat system doesn´t keep me from roleplaying my combat, describing my sword blows or anything. So why a social combat system keep me from roleplaying in social situations ?

To be honest there are very few of these alternate/sub- systems that Paizo has I that I like. I will still look at it because sometimes they come up with something I like.

@Milo v3: I am not judging it...I just don't need it.

@Draco Bahamut: Because Combat is action...social is what you say. There is a big difference between the two. You roll and based on that you describe the sword swing. You should not have to roll till after you are done RPing a social encounter...and even than I would argue you might not have to roll.

It is just how I and my groups tend to deal with soc encounters...not saying my way is better...it just a preference. So I don't need a social combat system.

I have been waiting for a book like this for a while...but now I don't know. The Class is not something I need or want...and could think of classes that in my opinion for the idea of intrigue a lot better.

A social combat system that just does not go along with my group's play style.

Now if there is a bunch of feats, spells and archetypes I can use without having to use the Social Combat system than this book will be great...if the options are all hardwired into the social combat system...than I might very well just pass on this book.
Designer
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The Social Conflict system (it's called Social Conflict, not Social Combat, due to the fact that the nature allows it to be much broader than just a single encounter) is written in such a way that I think both players and GMs like Barachiel and players and GMs like John will get use out of it, since it presents a framework to make your life easier in games with lots of social intrigue, rival factions, and mixed loyalties, regardless of how you choose to resolve each social situation, then presents you with various alternatives and options to use; more tools in your toolbox are good no matter whether you like alternatives with lots of skill checks or alternatives with lots of in-character back-and-forth. As you might predict based on this framework, that means you can use all the feats, spells, and archetypes no matter what your preference is for Social Conflicts.

One of our key goals for this book was to make sure that everything stands on its own if you don't use subsystems while also including plenty of tie-ins if you do use them. So for instance, consider the hypothetical "Influencer" archetype. It would have at least one ability that ties into the influence system, but that ability would also do something else that is helpful even if you never use the influence system.
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Mark Seifter wrote:

The Social Conflict system (it's called Social Conflict, not Social Combat, due to the fact that the nature allows it to be much broader than just a single encounter) is written in such a way that I think both players and GMs like Barachiel and players and GMs like John will get use out of it, since it presents a framework to make your life easier in games with lots of social intrigue, rival factions, and mixed loyalties, regardless of how you choose to resolve each social situation, then presents you with various alternatives and options to use; more tools in your toolbox are good no matter whether you like alternatives with lots of skill checks or alternatives with lots of in-character back-and-forth. As you might predict based on this framework, that means you can use all the feats, spells, and archetypes no matter what your preference is for Social Conflicts.

One of our key goals for this book was to make sure that everything stands on its own if you don't use subsystems while also including plenty of tie-ins if you do use them. So for instance, consider the hypothetical "Influencer" archetype. It would have at least one ability that ties into the influence system, but that ability would also do something else that is helpful even if you never use the influence system.

This puts my mind to ease about this book. :)

As for the Social Conflict system I'll look at it...if it has parts I can use I'll be happy...but I really don't expect to use 100% of any RPG book I get...so it is not that big of a deal if I don't use it.
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I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.
Contributor
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I agree with that; I ended up rolling a cleric just because the herald caller was written. (One of its abilities bumps the cleric up to 2 + Int skills per day.)

Designer
John Kretzer wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

The Social Conflict system (it's called Social Conflict, not Social Combat, due to the fact that the nature allows it to be much broader than just a single encounter) is written in such a way that I think both players and GMs like Barachiel and players and GMs like John will get use out of it, since it presents a framework to make your life easier in games with lots of social intrigue, rival factions, and mixed loyalties, regardless of how you choose to resolve each social situation, then presents you with various alternatives and options to use; more tools in your toolbox are good no matter whether you like alternatives with lots of skill checks or alternatives with lots of in-character back-and-forth. As you might predict based on this framework, that means you can use all the feats, spells, and archetypes no matter what your preference is for Social Conflicts.

One of our key goals for this book was to make sure that everything stands on its own if you don't use subsystems while also including plenty of tie-ins if you do use them. So for instance, consider the hypothetical "Influencer" archetype. It would have at least one ability that ties into the influence system, but that ability would also do something else that is helpful even if you never use the influence system.

This puts my mind to ease about this book. :)

As for the Social Conflict system I'll look at it...if it has parts I can use I'll be happy...but I really don't expect to use 100% of any RPG book I get...so it is not that big of a deal if I don't use it.

When I say that the section should be very useful for groups both like yours and Barachiel's, I do think it will be the case, and I'm not saying something akin to "everyone will like it", even. There is a subset of people who won't care for that section, and it's people who simply don't want to run games with those social components, preferring dungeon delves, for instance. But I do think that both "sides" of the question of how to run these social situations in Pathfinder (with more dice rolls and character interactions or with more player interactions) are really part of the same side when it comes to the bigger question: Do you want games to have those kinds of situations in them at all? If your answer is yes to that question, I think Ultimate Intrigue's social subsystems and Social Conflicts in particular will be helpful to you. Of course, the book also has rules for all sorts of sneaky and tricky stuff beyond the social, so if your answer is no and you like that other stuff, you still will likely get a kick out of the new rules content (archetypes, feats, spells, and magic items). I see this book as filling in a gap in the system; Pathfinder has rules that allow you to do everything in its world from battling monsters to attending the king's ball or performing a heist (or perhaps both at once!), but when it comes to rules support, from the Core Rulebook onward, 95% or more of the rules support has been for the battling monsters part, thus leaving us with an interesting and natural niche to fill here.

Designer
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Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I'm guessing you're going to enjoy this book, as plenty of classes got some love. Here's some data that's still mysterious enough to leave you wondering: Between new archetypes and alternate class features that aren't archetypes, I believe there is coverage for 7 core classes, 6 base classes, 1 alternate class, 5 hybrid classes, and 4 occult classes. My counts could be wrong, and that doesn't even count classes that gained new feats just for them, or classes that gained new spells for their spell lists!

Well that is still good enough count for something that is 6 months away.
Contributor
Mark Seifter wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I'm guessing you're going to enjoy this book, as plenty of classes got some love. Here's some data that's still mysterious enough to leave you wondering: Between new archetypes and alternate class features that aren't archetypes, I believe there is coverage for 7 core classes, 6 base classes, 1 alternate class, 5 hybrid classes, and 4 occult classes. My counts could be wrong, and that doesn't even count classes that gained new feats just for them, or classes that gained new spells for their spell lists!

Did I roll high enough on my Perception check to spot the possible appearance of a NINJA archetype?!

Designer
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I'm guessing you're going to enjoy this book, as plenty of classes got some love. Here's some data that's still mysterious enough to leave you wondering: Between new archetypes and alternate class features that aren't archetypes, I believe there is coverage for 7 core classes, 6 base classes, 1 alternate class, 5 hybrid classes, and 4 occult classes. My counts could be wrong, and that doesn't even count classes that gained new feats just for them, or classes that gained new spells for their spell lists!

Did I roll high enough on my Perception check to spot the possible appearance of a NINJA archetype?!

Don't count your shurikens before they're in your throat. Without weighing in on either side, I will say that I expect people to be pleased by the alternate class archetype, whether it's ninja or not, as it fills a desired niche. You'll never pin me down on any details, however, except for things that either Jason mentioned at the banquet or that are mentioned in the product page.

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I'm guessing you're going to enjoy this book, as plenty of classes got some love. Here's some data that's still mysterious enough to leave you wondering: Between new archetypes and alternate class features that aren't archetypes, I believe there is coverage for 7 core classes, 6 base classes, 1 alternate class, 5 hybrid classes, and 4 occult classes. My counts could be wrong, and that doesn't even count classes that gained new feats just for them, or classes that gained new spells for their spell lists!

Did I roll high enough on my Perception check to spot the possible appearance of a NINJA archetype?!
Don't count your shurikens before they're in your throat. Without weighing in on either side, I will say that I expect people to be pleased by the alternate class archetype, whether it's ninja or not, as it fills a desired niche. You'll never pin me down on any details, however, except for things that either Jason mentioned at the banquet or that are mentioned in the product page.

Emphasis mine.

You know it could have been "alternate class features" rather than archetype for the alternate class, so a little more has slipped out there. With only three alternate classes, we can almost eliminate the anti-paladin (highly unlikely). That leaves us two. Of course it could be a poetry oriented samurai archetype, but I'm not counting on it...

:D
Designer
Feros wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I'm guessing you're going to enjoy this book, as plenty of classes got some love. Here's some data that's still mysterious enough to leave you wondering: Between new archetypes and alternate class features that aren't archetypes, I believe there is coverage for 7 core classes, 6 base classes, 1 alternate class, 5 hybrid classes, and 4 occult classes. My counts could be wrong, and that doesn't even count classes that gained new feats just for them, or classes that gained new spells for their spell lists!

Did I roll high enough on my Perception check to spot the possible appearance of a NINJA archetype?!
Don't count your shurikens before they're in your throat. Without weighing in on either side, I will say that I expect people to be pleased by the alternate class archetype, whether it's ninja or not, as it fills a desired niche. You'll never pin me down on any details, however, except for things that either Jason mentioned at the banquet or that are mentioned in the product page.

Emphasis mine.

You know it could have been "alternate class features" rather than archetype for the alternate class, so a little more has slipped out there. With only three alternate classes, we can almost eliminate the anti-paladin (highly unlikely). That leaves us two. Of course it could be a poetry oriented samurai archetype, but I'm not counting on it...

:D

Since antipaladins don't have alternate class features and ninjas and samurai would have to share their alternate class features (tricks and orders) with the base class, it wouldn't be fair of me to list otherwise, I think. But perhaps it was a trick? ;)

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Feros wrote:

Emphasis mine.

You know it could have been "alternate class features" rather than archetype for the alternate class, so a little more has slipped out there. With only three alternate classes, we can almost eliminate the anti-paladin (highly unlikely). That leaves us two. Of course it could be a poetry oriented samurai archetype, but I'm not counting on it...

:D

A deceptive, sneaky Antipaladin archetype focused on infiltration? I could totally see that being in here. Of the three, that's actually the one I'm hoping for. Still, four for Occult is enough to guarantee something I like being covered.

Contributor

To be fair, the antipaladin has gotten more Paizo archetypes then either the ninja (0) or samurai (1).

If my memory's right, antipaladin's gotten two from Ultimate Combat and one from Inner Sea Combat. My nagging brain is telling me that I'm forgotten one, but I haven't the time to fact check that. (I'll leave that to someone else.)

And of course I never expected you to reveal what class the archetype is for, Mark. I am merely voicing my pleasure at the possibility of an official ninja archetype. (Especially if it trades out poison use, as that's a class feature that I'm fairly lukewarm about.)
Contributor
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QuidEst wrote:
Feros wrote:

Emphasis mine.

You know it could have been "alternate class features" rather than archetype for the alternate class, so a little more has slipped out there. With only three alternate classes, we can almost eliminate the anti-paladin (highly unlikely). That leaves us two. Of course it could be a poetry oriented samurai archetype, but I'm not counting on it...

:D

A deceptive, sneaky Antipaladin archetype focused on infiltration? I could totally see that being in here. Of the three, that's actually the one I'm hoping for. Still, four for Occult is enough to guarantee something I like being covered.

If we get a sneaky antipaladin, it needs to include artwork of the recurring antipaladin sneaking in THIS pose!

Designer
2 people marked this as a favorite.
Alexander Augunas wrote:

To be fair, the antipaladin has gotten more Paizo archetypes then either the ninja (0) or samurai (1).

If my memory's right, antipaladin's gotten two from Ultimate Combat and one from Inner Sea Combat. My nagging brain is telling me that I'm forgotten one, but I haven't the time to fact check that. (I'll leave that to someone else.)

And of course I never expected you to reveal what class the archetype is for, Mark. I am merely voicing my pleasure at the possibility of an official ninja archetype. (Especially if it trades out poison use, as that's a class feature that I'm fairly lukewarm about.)

If you count racial antipaladin archetypes, there are actually five (one in Champions of Corruption and one in Monster Codex), but to be fair, ninja tends to be able to take rogue archetypes far more often than the other two can take their parent class's archetypes, so I would rate samurai as the one that has the fewest at 1.

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Did somebody say ninja?!
Contributor
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

To be fair, the antipaladin has gotten more Paizo archetypes then either the ninja (0) or samurai (1).

If my memory's right, antipaladin's gotten two from Ultimate Combat and one from Inner Sea Combat. My nagging brain is telling me that I'm forgotten one, but I haven't the time to fact check that. (I'll leave that to someone else.)

And of course I never expected you to reveal what class the archetype is for, Mark. I am merely voicing my pleasure at the possibility of an official ninja archetype. (Especially if it trades out poison use, as that's a class feature that I'm fairly lukewarm about.)

If you count racial antipaladin archetypes, there are actually five (one in Champions of Corruption and one in Monster Codex), but to be fair, ninja tends to be able to take rogue archetypes far more often than the other two can take their parent class's archetypes, so I would rate samurai as the one that has the fewest at 1.

I know that most everyone plays the ninja as qualifying for the rogue's archetypes, but did the PDT ever make it FAQ-official? (I vaguely remember talk of it before the FAQ Button stopped working.)

Reiko of White Wave wrote:
Did somebody say ninja?!

You're not supposed to jump out whenever someone says the word! We went over this.

This job would be far easier if it weren't for all the PCs. >_<
Designer
2 people marked this as a favorite.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

To be fair, the antipaladin has gotten more Paizo archetypes then either the ninja (0) or samurai (1).

If my memory's right, antipaladin's gotten two from Ultimate Combat and one from Inner Sea Combat. My nagging brain is telling me that I'm forgotten one, but I haven't the time to fact check that. (I'll leave that to someone else.)

And of course I never expected you to reveal what class the archetype is for, Mark. I am merely voicing my pleasure at the possibility of an official ninja archetype. (Especially if it trades out poison use, as that's a class feature that I'm fairly lukewarm about.)

If you count racial antipaladin archetypes, there are actually five (one in Champions of Corruption and one in Monster Codex), but to be fair, ninja tends to be able to take rogue archetypes far more often than the other two can take their parent class's archetypes, so I would rate samurai as the one that has the fewest at 1.
I know that most everyone plays the ninja as qualifying for the rogue's archetypes, but did the PDT ever make it FAQ-official? (I vaguely remember talk of it before the FAQ Button stopped working.)

I believe not. We at least set the precedent that rogue alt classes could take rogue archetypes if they had the right features in Unchained with the Unchained rogue's ability to take rogue archetypes, I suppose.

Silver Crusade Contributor
Mark Seifter wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
I just hope that the non-skill classes get some love as well. I would love archetypes that grant extra skill points and class skills especially for non-Int casters that have only 2+Int skill points.

I'm guessing you're going to enjoy this book, as plenty of classes got some love. Here's some data that's still mysterious enough to leave you wondering: Between new archetypes and alternate class features that aren't archetypes, I believe there is coverage for 7 core classes, 6 base classes, 1 alternate class, 5 hybrid classes, and 4 occult classes. My counts could be wrong, and that doesn't even count classes that gained new feats just for them, or classes that gained new spells for their spell lists!

Did I roll high enough on my Perception check to spot the possible appearance of a NINJA archetype?!
Don't count your shurikens before they're in your throat. Without weighing in on either side, I will say that I expect people to be pleased by the alternate class archetype, whether it's ninja or not, as it fills a desired niche. You'll never pin me down on any details, however, except for things that either Jason mentioned at the banquet or that are mentioned in the product page.

raises eyebrow

An LE antipaladin archetype has been a long time coming...

(I have my suspicions about Pathfinder Player Companion: Agents of Evil as well, for the record.)
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Mark Seifter wrote:
I believe not. We at least set the precedent that rogue alt classes could take rogue archetypes if they had the right features in Unchained with the Unchained rogue's ability to take rogue archetypes, I suppose.

So unchained classes are intended to be alternate classes?

I really hope this book give an option for any class to take DEX to damage. And allow for all fighting styles (one handed, two handed, TWF, sword and board etc)

I've been waiting for ages, then hoped the ACG errata would help with a fixed Slashing Grace (which didn't happen), and hopefully there has been enough playing with the unchained rogue and swashbuckler to see that it doesn't unbalance the game if the cost to access the ability is appropriate.

(Just my opinion about hopes for this book, not intended to start the ever present argument)

...I don't know that I would get your hopes up for a book dedicated to non-combat to offer Dexterity to damage...
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Then how about charisma to damage? ;)

Anyway -- I am sure that this book is not entirely non-combat.
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