The Godsrain Prophecies Part Nine

Wednesday, April 3, 2024

As I near the end of my review of the Godsrain Prophecies, I’m reaching the part of any research project that’s the most daunting—the conclusion. While it will of course be up to my Lady to decide what, if anything, to do with these prophecies, I plan to present her with the two or three reasons for their existence that I believe are the most plausible (other than them all being true, which I maintain is nearly impossible).

Unfortunately, this need for clarity means that I must dismiss (or at least deemphasize) one of the more exciting ideas I have come up with thus far: that these are a collection of the gods’ fears. I have noted throughout these pages that there are responses to the gods’ deaths in each of the prophecies that seem out of character, either for the other gods or their followers, but I don’t believe this lack of consistency is due to these being reflections of what a god would worry over. In truth, I am not sure that gods fear anything at all. Is fear not driven by a sense of mortality, or at least, the potential for one’s role in the world to change or end at a moment’s notice? I wonder if, instead, the “prophecies” are intended to help the gods develop fear, to remind them that they are not beyond the reach of death and give them a small taste of mortal terror. Though to what end, I do not know. Who would want to give a god a nightmare?

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The “Death” of Irori

Irori is not one for dying. Death is common. Death is normal. Death is there for mortals who have not yet mastered how to reach new levels of perfection, who have not willed themselves into attaining the divine. Death might take some weaker god if given the right circumstances, starting with those cheaters who let the Starstone grant them power, grabbing godhood like some prize for drunks and thieves and zealots. But for a god like him, who’d worked and willed himself to godhood? Death is something of the past and he is moving forward.

Irori’s never rested long, no matter his successes. There’s always some new path to take at any well-earned milestone, some new technique to master, some new knowledge to find. Yes, it was good to be a god, if for no other reason than to share new possibilities with those who’d turn their will toward doing better with their lives. But he is one of many gods—some virtuous, some indolent—and so there must be something more, some way that he can still evolve. Some new route toward perfection.

Irori works with diligence, the way that he has always done, reaching beyond the world he’s known to better what he has become. Until one day, he grasps it all—the spaces in the sum of things, the power in the truth of everything that was or will be. And though total enlightenment is only for a moment, slipping between his fingers like a cloud of windblown sand, he still can feel the barrier between himself and something more, as pliable and thin as what once kept him from divinity. While he has it in his reach, he passes through the boundary, as bracing and as easy as a step through falling water. Irori, once a mortal, is now much more than deity.

Irori savors everything, if only for a moment. He takes a breath in every plane, his heartbeat now a multiverse, and feels the coursing power as it crashes through his veins. But he has departed our reality, has left a tear along the border of the way of things, and everything, on every plane, begins to shift toward him, as if he were a beacon for something within the Great Beyond—a single life, a single god, become a singularity. Gruhastha is the first to fall, the Keeper’s arms stretched uselessly, hands grasping at the emptiness he finds beside Irori’s feet. He’s swallowed by a void that somehow still contains a multitude, his body torn asunder in a bright and blissful darkness, his lips mouthing his gratitude, his throat choking on screams.

Irori is a magnet now, pulling those closest to him; Chaldira’s luck lost in a cry while Magrim’s runes go tumbling, some force dragging them both to places even he can’t follow. All he can do is close the gap before it sunders everything, using the power that he holds, still far beyond what it once was, to fix whatever he has done (or is doing or one day will, time half-unraveling in his hands). As he repairs the barrier, still dripping with the power that he touched from passing through it, Zon-Kuthon comes to stand beside him, image of the blinding void reflected in his longing eyes, and Nethys tries to touch the power nestled just beneath his skin, hands clawing unknown patterns of magic in the air. Both soon become his shadows, hounding every move he tries to make, Zon-Kuthon chasing memories and Nethys seeking answers, with Torag always close behind, holding his brother Magrim’s blade with vengeance on his mind. Some of Irori’s followers also trail behind him; those who were deep in prayer at the moment that he moved beyond, unable to unsee the void, dedicate themselves to its return, doing whatever they can to hasten the end of all things.

But Irori has a new path now, divinity left far behind as he masters the power that’s now deep within his bones. He sees things now—beneath the ground, between the breaths, inside the skin—and knows that they will take him where Gruhastha and the rest have gone, that what tore them apart will help him make himself anew. If there are prayers for him to hear, he is no longer listening. If rakshasas take his guise and use his faith to build their power? If Urgathoa’s clerics tell his followers that next time he will end the world and they should eat and drink and die with no thought for tomorrow? How can he care when there’s a new path for him to gain perfection? And if the world unmakes itself, if he had to unmake the world, if that brings him enlightenment, then that’s what it must be.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Irori, Nethys, Pharasma, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

What lies beyond divinity, and who better than Irori to first achieve such exquisite perfection that he leaves even other gods behind?





Well, that was certainly involved. Multiverses? Singularities? Bright voids? And yet, in all of that, I almost see a pattern. I have tried not to reference other prophecies in my notes here; if my Lady chooses to read them out of the original order that I chose, I would hate for her to learn a piece of information in these notes that would be better divulged by the original text. Still, I am reminded of the prophecy regarding Desna, which also mentions a void. And there are similarities between this prophecy and the one for Nethys, not only in their reciprocal mentions but in their fascination with the fundamental properties of our universe. Perhaps instead of looking at the prophecies individually, I should be looking for these types of commonalities—could things that are repeated be elements of some underlying message, or a hint as to what among these “prophecies” might be true amidst the overstatements and suppositions? If there was ever a time to make a chart, that time is upon us.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Irori was too busy to watch where he was going, tripped, stubbed his toe and died of gangrene. Pretty ignoble.

Grand Archive

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Leliel the 12th wrote:
Nintendogeek01 wrote:

I hate to say this but I can't help but be afraid that it really is Shelyn who's going to die. I don't want her to, she's my personal favorite, but with the Prismatic Ray set to change somehow, according to an early tease, and that I doubt they're going to kill the goddess one of the iconics worships I can't help but fear that Shelyn is going to die.

Now I could be wrong, I desperately hope that I'm wrong. The one hint is open to interpretation, and maybe they feel like the extra shock value by getting rid of an iconic too, or something.

Honestly, I think a future adventure path kind of tipped their hand:

Shelyn dying will result in a loss of creative spirit across the board.

Curtain Call is all about producing an opera.

One of these things does not sound like something that can easily be done in light of the other.

Curtain Calls will technically release before any of the War of Immortals happens, so it shouldn't be taken as an indication of anything. :P

Could be the last "Shelyn hourra!"
Note: I stil think it will be Torag personally. Just playing devil's advocate here with the info I know.

Dark Archive

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*Goes check the Curtain Call AP product pages nervously*
*Returns looking just as nervous*


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In Buddhism the Buddha does NOT attain the highest level of Enlightenment…precisely because it would take him out of the “The World” and leave unable to help others in their own journey of self-discovery. So he stays behind and becomes both Teacher and Goal Post for mortals (and immortals) to follow.

Irori has simply decided to take that last Step.


Elfteiroh wrote:
Leliel the 12th wrote:
Nintendogeek01 wrote:

I hate to say this but I can't help but be afraid that it really is Shelyn who's going to die. I don't want her to, she's my personal favorite, but with the Prismatic Ray set to change somehow, according to an early tease, and that I doubt they're going to kill the goddess one of the iconics worships I can't help but fear that Shelyn is going to die.

Now I could be wrong, I desperately hope that I'm wrong. The one hint is open to interpretation, and maybe they feel like the extra shock value by getting rid of an iconic too, or something.

Honestly, I think a future adventure path kind of tipped their hand:

Shelyn dying will result in a loss of creative spirit across the board.

Curtain Call is all about producing an opera.

One of these things does not sound like something that can easily be done in light of the other.

Curtain Calls will technically release before any of the War of Immortals happens, so it shouldn't be taken as an indication of anything. :P

Could be the last "Shelyn hourra!"
Note: I stil think it will be Torag personally. Just playing devil's advocate here with the info I know.

Yeah I'm with Elfteiroh on this one, after looking at the product page for Curtain Call I'm not sure how that's indicative of anything.

Of course this does nothing to disabuse me of the reasons I'm fearing for Shelyn's safety to begin with so...

*goes back to huddling in a corner.*

Liberty's Edge

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Nintendogeek01 wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
Leliel the 12th wrote:
Nintendogeek01 wrote:

I hate to say this but I can't help but be afraid that it really is Shelyn who's going to die. I don't want her to, she's my personal favorite, but with the Prismatic Ray set to change somehow, according to an early tease, and that I doubt they're going to kill the goddess one of the iconics worships I can't help but fear that Shelyn is going to die.

Now I could be wrong, I desperately hope that I'm wrong. The one hint is open to interpretation, and maybe they feel like the extra shock value by getting rid of an iconic too, or something.

Honestly, I think a future adventure path kind of tipped their hand:

Shelyn dying will result in a loss of creative spirit across the board.

Curtain Call is all about producing an opera.

One of these things does not sound like something that can easily be done in light of the other.

Curtain Calls will technically release before any of the War of Immortals happens, so it shouldn't be taken as an indication of anything. :P

Could be the last "Shelyn hourra!"
Note: I stil think it will be Torag personally. Just playing devil's advocate here with the info I know.

Yeah I'm with Elfteiroh on this one, after looking at the product page for Curtain Call I'm not sure how that's indicative of anything.

Of course this does nothing to disabuse me of the reasons I'm fearing for Shelyn's safety to begin with so...

*goes back to huddling in a corner.*

I think giving us twice what would happen if Shelyn failed as a deity makes it very unlikely that we will get her death.


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I think the reason they held back on announcing Wardens of Wildwood and Curtain Calls until late in the "War of the Immortals" build-up was not because they were tied into War of the Immortals in any real way, but because they didn't want to get people to hyperfixate on the idea that they are thinking that "obviously Wardens mean its Gozreh/Erastil" and "obviously Curtain Calls means it's Shelyn/Asmodeus/Norgorber."


Magus Black wrote:

In Buddhism the Buddha does NOT attain the highest level of Enlightenment…precisely because it would take him out of the “The World” and leave unable to help others in their own journey of self-discovery. So he stays behind and becomes both Teacher and Goal Post for mortals (and immortals) to follow.

Irori has simply decided to take that last Step.

Huh, I hadn't known that; that actually makes this story even more interesting to me than it already was. So if the writer knew that bit of info as well, then there's here the implication that it wasn't just Irori's MISTAKE, but Irori's ERROR.


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OK, theory time-not from a lore perspective, but from a meta one. So far, they seem to be keeping around gods that the setting would be vastly different without. So if they're going to kill one, it would need to have enough of an impact to make a difference, but also not so big of an impact that the entire setting changes. Also, i suspect they're less likely to kill off more unique deities, or risk their setting becoming bland. So, ruling them out...

- I don't think its Gozreh. Too unique of a concept of a god to get rid of in my book. low Chance
- Calistria: too small of an impact by getting rid of her, also the only lven deity. low chance
- Torag: See Calistria, but dwarf 5% chance
- Sarenrae: their most well-known deity and a setting where the sun is out? I suspect not. low chance
- Sheylyn: I've seen people mention she's become representative of queer players, would be a mistake to get rid of her low

- Gorum: too low profile? also we've never seen their face. but, if they're replacing them with a more unique deity, i could see it. medium chance.
- Iomadae: Unlikely since she took over for Aroden. That would just be doing the same things twice. medium chance
- Lamashtu: a new source of strife would be interesting, but i dont think its guaranteed. medium chance
- Norgorber: secrets about the world are revealed with his death, leading to more interesting stories. Medium chance

- Rovagug: Same as Lamashtu, but 10 years of worrying about him getting out, him dying would feel like an appropriately built up event. likely to generate the most fuss, and could lead to interesting stories, thogh i think theres supposed to be an existing deity taking over the place of the god, so that's why this isnt my #1 pick. high chance
- Abadar: My personal pick. Killing the god of cities and wealth and whatnot i think is the biggest shake up to the setting. If all the major cities suddenly are no more, and all the wealth gets out of whack, it would make for very interesting setting implications, and someone else stepping into that role and changing how things work, especially as no allignment means no city allignments, means those lawful neutral places with slavery in them and whatnot will get an overhaul.

But that's me.


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TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

OK, theory time-not from a lore perspective, but from a meta one. So far, they seem to be keeping around gods that the setting would be vastly different without. So if they're going to kill one, it would need to have enough of an impact to make a difference, but also not so big of an impact that the entire setting changes. Also, i suspect they're less likely to kill off more unique deities, or risk their setting becoming bland. So, ruling them out...

- I don't think its Gozreh. Too unique of a concept of a god to get rid of in my book. low Chance
- Calistria: too small of an impact by getting rid of her, also the only lven deity. low chance
- Torag: See Calistria, but dwarf 5% chance
- Sarenrae: their most well-known deity and a setting where the sun is out? I suspect not. low chance
- Sheylyn: I've seen people mention she's become representative of queer players, would be a mistake to get rid of her low

- Gorum: too low profile? also we've never seen their face. but, if they're replacing them with a more unique deity, i could see it. medium chance.
- Iomadae: Unlikely since she took over for Aroden. That would just be doing the same things twice. medium chance
- Lamashtu: a new source of strife would be interesting, but i dont think its guaranteed. medium chance
- Norgorber: secrets about the world are revealed with his death, leading to more interesting stories. Medium chance

- Rovagug: Same as Lamashtu, but 10 years of worrying about him getting out, him dying would feel like an appropriately built up event. likely to generate the most fuss, and could lead to interesting stories, thogh i think theres supposed to be an existing deity taking over the place of the god, so that's why this isnt my #1 pick. high chance
- Abadar: My personal pick. Killing the god of cities and wealth and whatnot i think is the biggest shake up to the setting. If all the major cities suddenly are no more, and all the wealth gets out of whack, it would make for very interesting setting implications, and someone...

Its important to remember that there are multiple gods of the Sun, the sun isn't straight up gone just because Sarenrae is, because Shizuru is also a sun goddess. What a Sarenrae-less Golarion WOULD look like though, I'm not sure.


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No hint before Part Ten this week, we going in blind with nine remaining gods (only one Prismatic Ray gets a prophecy, as has been said before, so Sarenrae and Shelyn can't be in the pool)


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TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
- Calistria: too small of an impact by getting rid of her, also the only lven deity. low chance

Note that Calistra is not the only elven deity. She, along with Desna, is just popular enough outside of the elven communities to be counted in the "core 20" for the Inner Sea region.

In this respect, she would be more at risk than Torag (who is the only dwarf deity in the "core 20").


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TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
- Rovagug: Same as Lamashtu, but 10 years of worrying about him getting out, him dying would feel like an appropriately built up event. likely to generate the most fuss, and could lead to interesting stories, thogh i think theres supposed to be an existing deity taking over the place of the god, so that's why this isnt my #1 pick. high chance

An important meta point for this one, Arazni is going to be the new member of the Core 20, but she is not taking the portfolio of the dead deity. So, if they kill Rovagug, Arazni would be the new member of the Core 20, but she would not take over any of Rovagug's portfolio or domains. It's not a 1 to 1 replacement.

"TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
- Abadar: My personal pick. Killing the god of cities and wealth and whatnot i think is the biggest shake up to the setting. If all the major cities suddenly are no more, and all the wealth gets out of whack, it would make for very interesting setting implications, and someone...

Abadar does have one very big meta reason for not being the one to be killed: If killing Abadar would completely disrupt wealth and currency systems across Golarion, then Paizo would need to publish rules for how to adjust prices of all equipment based on region, settlement size, surrounding country's natural resources, and all the other real-world factors that go into pricing of goods and services. No more "a longsword is 15 sp, no matter if you buy it in Cheliax or Osirion." I don't think adding an economics mini-game to the shopping mini-game would make for an improvement in overall gameplay.

Also, arguably the most major city, Absalom, is the headquarters of the in-world organization that is Paizo's Organized Play Campagin, the Pathfinder Society. I don't think they'd wreck that, which gives Abadar additional meta protection.


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Phntm888 wrote:
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
- Rovagug: Same as Lamashtu, but 10 years of worrying about him getting out, him dying would feel like an appropriately built up event. likely to generate the most fuss, and could lead to interesting stories, thogh i think theres supposed to be an existing deity taking over the place of the god, so that's why this isnt my #1 pick. high chance

An important meta point for this one, Arazni is going to be the new member of the Core 20, but she is not taking the portfolio of the dead deity. So, if they kill Rovagug, Arazni would be the new member of the Core 20, but she would not take over any of Rovagug's portfolio or domains. It's not a 1 to 1 replacement.

"TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
- Abadar: My personal pick. Killing the god of cities and wealth and whatnot i think is the biggest shake up to the setting. If all the major cities suddenly are no more, and all the wealth gets out of whack, it would make for very interesting setting implications, and someone...

Abadar does have one very big meta reason for not being the one to be killed: If killing Abadar would completely disrupt wealth and currency systems across Golarion, then Paizo would need to publish rules for how to adjust prices of all equipment based on region, settlement size, surrounding country's natural resources, and all the other real-world factors that go into pricing of goods and services. No more "a longsword is 15 sp, no matter if you buy it in Cheliax or Osirion." I don't think adding an economics mini-game to the shopping mini-game would make for an improvement in overall gameplay.

Also, arguably the most major city, Absalom, is the headquarters of the in-world organization that is Paizo's Organized Play Campagin, the Pathfinder Society. I don't think they'd wreck that, which gives Abadar additional meta protection.

Clearly, Abadar has been secretly dead the whole time, but this fact is being covered up by Golarion's Banks. But actually its the reason the economic values in this TTRPG don't make sense from a real world economics perspective, as economic principles stopped functioning and the economy now works entirely off of vibes /nod /nod


Based on the feat names of the playtest exemplar, my money is still on gozreh or sarenrae


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Re: Abadar and setting economics

To be fair, do most of us really want to deal with variable currency values, supply and demand considerations, cartels/monopolies artificially controlling prices, etc. during game sessions?

The prices are an abstraction/simplification for ease of play. Similar to hit points being an abstraction/simplification of endurance, luck, and willpower instead of "just" physical damage/wounds.


So wait, where the God of medicine who justifies the quantifiable nature of hit points, then? =P

Unrelated, in relevant current events how likely do you think a solar eclipse happening during the War is going to be? Maybe get some Tzitzimime all up on here while Sarenrae's eyes are averted. She's not dying, just undergoing temporary hardship before the moon demons are driven back.

Grand Archive

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Dragonchess Player wrote:
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
- Calistria: too small of an impact by getting rid of her, also the only lven deity. low chance

Note that Calistra is not the only elven deity. She, along with Desna, is just popular enough outside of the elven communities to be counted in the "core 20" for the Inner Sea region.

In this respect, she would be more at risk than Torag (who is the only dwarf deity in the "core 20").

Or you could flip it around.

Torag being the ONLY deity strongly tied to an ancestry could be more likely because of that, as it's the only one that feel "limited" in who can comfortably worship him.
He's also the only core 20 deity that have been, historically, openly hostile to some core ancestries.


Torag also has a universal applicability to non-dwarves that Callistria really doesn't have. In addition to being the Patriarch of the dwarven people, he's also the god of craftspeople and defensive war. Like people from all over will pray to Torag that the walls of their city will hold against a siege or that a blade won't warp in the quench. There's a reason the Hellknights are into him.

Calistria's whole deal of hedonism and revenge isn't really something people in large groups can get into.


Elfteiroh wrote:


Or you could flip it around.
Torag being the ONLY deity strongly tied to an ancestry could be more likely because of that, as it's the only one that feel "limited" in who can comfortably worship him.
He's also the only core 20 deity that have been, historically, openly hostile to some core ancestries.

This is one reason why I wouldn't be surprised to see him go. He's the most overtly ancestral-coded deity in a game that's been trying to downplay ancestry as a core personal or cultural theme.

I think he's also a little bit safer to remove in terms of portfolio too. You can kind of cover a lot of his main concepts by spreading them out between Erastil, Iomedae, and Abadar. Maybe even Shelyn if you have her lean into craftsmanship as artistry a little bit more.

Who knows if that's part of the consideration, but just imagining a post WOI world, a dndish high fantasy setting's core pantheon not having a quintessential war god or nature deity feels weirder to me than not having god of dwarfiness.

I'm not particularly convinced they're getting rid of him, but I do think there are some compelling reasons external to the narrative to consider him, so I don't think it'd be surprising either.


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I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though. Like in a setting with a wide variety of different kinds of people, it's weirder to have so many of them read as human than to have one of them be a dwarf, or an elf, or any other non-human ancestry.

Like Iomedae, Cayden, Norgorber (probably), Irori, Nethys, Urgathoa, and Arazni are all ex-humans.


I still want Rovagug OUT of the Core 20; I don't care if he dies or not, I just want him to no longer be included in that list.

Oh man, I HOPE there's a solar eclipse in the event. (I saw it earlier today, where I live, and even though I got only a few seconds of being able to see the actual "sun covered by moon" due to clouds, the "darkness in day" was REALLY cool.) Like, it's the single most dramatic astronomical event that isn't inherently lethal, and when you're dealing with something as over-the-top as a war between multiple powerful beings, at least one of whom is capable of deicide, you TAKE that free opportunity.

Unrelated, I've seen people say "if Shelyn dies, then art and creativity is borked", and I don't think that's necessarily true. Like, even assuming the prophecies say what would actually happen (which isn't a given), it showed effects on art when she was GRIEVING. Aka, alive and thus potentially able to influence stuff in her domain. If she dies, she would no longer have any influence over it.

Grand Lodge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.

I do. I'm not sure I've seen any non-dwarf character worship him, while plenty of non-elf characters have worshipped Calistria.


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Not sure about the rest of you, but I've always known Torag as the dwarven god. With his heavy focus on creation, duty, honor, etc., he does hit most of the traditional RPG dwarven tropes (except hatred for elves, haven't really seen that here), and that's what a lot of people like in an RPG diety. I think Pathfinder 2nd Edition would lose a lot of character potential if there wasn't decent dwarf representation in the core 20.


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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this very similar to what happened to Zon-Kuthon (who didn't just look into the void that exists beyond the Multiverse but actually WENT there and came back horrifically changed)? Apparently even gazing INTO IT can cause a spiral of self-destructive corruption that can affect even a Deity! o_o


TriOmegaZero wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.
I do. I'm not sure I've seen any non-dwarf character worship him, while plenty of non-elf characters have worshipped Calistria.

I wonder why Paizo decided to avoid making some of the core deities specifically worshipped only by the various species (aka Dwarves still worship Torag but so do other species as well).


TriOmegaZero wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.
I do. I'm not sure I've seen any non-dwarf character worship him, while plenty of non-elf characters have worshipped Calistria.

I'm exactly the opposite. I've never seen a non-elf worship Calistria but I've seen many human characters worship Torag.


Throw my name down for, "There should be a forge god... Oh right I guess Torag counts... Does he even have non-dwarf worshippers? He's basically the god of dwarfness. Actually, come to think of it do any other ancestries have gods? I know Desna is depicted as an elf and... Wait what do you mean Calistria is popular among elves? Huh, cool, I never realized that."

Grand Lodge

There is the priestess in charge of the House of the Silken Veil in Riddleport, and I thought we met one in Hell's Rebels but that appears to have been an assumption. I've seen plenty of organized play members as well, and faced off against a very high level human cleric in Galt. It's definitely possible I've seen some Ulfen worshippers of Torag and not realized it however.


Wait Urga-whatsit is a former human? Like I know she's a former MORTAL but I'd never clicked "human".


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I'll mention again that Torag represents defense to the Hellknights of the Godclaw, who are certainly not majority-Dwarf.

EDIT: Heck, he has to have been fairly popular among anti-Worldwound crusaders broadly - not everyone can be hard-charging Iomedeans, after all. You can't fight demons without arms and armor!


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Like the thing about polytheism is that it's not normal for most people to worship only one god. There might be one deity that is most important to you, but you will still do the rites for whichever deity is related to whatever the thing you want to happen is.

So like every smith is going to have Torag's hammer hanging somewhere in their shop. Most folks who find themselves on the defensive side of a siege have said a prayer to Torag, etc.

I think "a deity of crafting things" and "a war god who is about protecting things that are important to you, rather than killing your enemies" are more important to have around than "god of dwarves". Torag is much more those two first things than the latter, IMO.


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So, there is no hint for this weeks prophecy, but in the off chance the lack of hint is a hint, then its Norgorber. Otherwise it could be any of them.


It would be interesting if Torag, the god behind the dwarven Quest for Sky, ended up being torn apart in the sky and raining bits of godstuff down on his now surface-dwelling people.

It would make me wonder who gave him the idea for the Quest for Sky in the first place.


Pronate11 wrote:
So, there is no hint for this weeks prophecy, but in the off chance the lack of hint is a hint, then its Norgorber. Otherwise it could be any of them.

This is fun. I like it.

Scarab Sages

Pronate11 wrote:
So, there is no hint for this weeks prophecy, but in the off chance the lack of hint is a hint, then its Norgorber. Otherwise it could be any of them.

I'm thinking it will be Torag put on the safe list this week.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.

I mean, he definitely has portfolio and value beyond being a cultural deity, but he's also literally called the god of dwarvenkind.


Squiggit wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.
I mean, he definitely has portfolio and value beyond being a cultural deity, but he's also literally called the god of dwarvenkind.

He's the god of dwarves similar to how Urgathoa is the goddess of the undead- they were the first of their respective type. The difference between the two here is that Torag doesn't really expect you to become more Dwarf-like, except in the sense that duty, craftsmanship, family, and protection tend to be important to dwarves.

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.
I do. I'm not sure I've seen any non-dwarf character worship him, while plenty of non-elf characters have worshipped Calistria.
I'm exactly the opposite. I've never seen a non-elf worship Calistria but I've seen many human characters worship Torag.

Wild how different our experiences are! Like TOZ, I've never seen a non-dwarf worshiper of Torag, and I regularly forget that Calistria is supposed to be an elven deity due to how rarely the two are associated at tables I'm involved with.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I don't see how the death of Abadar leads to the (immediate?) destruction of all cities. The cities would still be there.


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I think Torag has the potential for being more popular for humans than it appears in Golarion. Defense and creation are pretty broad terms that should give us plenty of reason to worship Torag for humans. We just haven't seen that many of them in the world compared to Calistria.

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Tomorrow is the final prophecy! Who do YOU think will be announced safe?


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Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
Tomorrow is the final prophecy? Who do YOU think will be announced safe?

First guess is Saranrae, goddess of plastic wrap. Second guess is Norgerburger, god of hamburger theft.


No solid guesses, but my hope is for either Iomadae or Lamashtu. Rovagug could also be cool to hear what would happen if the Rough Beast died.


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Easl wrote:
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
Tomorrow is the final prophecy? Who do YOU think will be announced safe?
First guess is Saranrae, goddess of plastic wrap. Second guess is Norgerburger, god of hamburger theft.

and now I can't stop imagining Norgober in the role of Hamburglar.

Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
Tomorrow is the final prophecy! Who do YOU think will be announced safe?

I still say Abadar, and for the same reasons. He won't be the one to die, because it would break the underlying structure of the game in unfun ways, but that same breakage makes him a really interesting one to explore the ramifications of in a nice little bite-sized prophecy.

That said, I'm only, like, 25% certain? Maybe 33%? There's a lot of reasons why Paizo might choose their last entry on this list, and the "Which of the gods that isn't going to die do we highlight?" question is low-impact enough that any of them could wind up being sufficiently compelling. I mean, we're in a space where "Oh, hey - I've got a really cool idea for that one." is actually a very strong argument, so....


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Rovagug would be a nice one to wrap things up on; unless a) he's the one who dies, or b) they have better ideas for "what would make a nice conclusion" than I do.

Liberty's Edge

For what the story could be like, I hope for Rovagug first, Abadar second. Maybe Lamashtu.

With my luck, it will be Iomedae. Or Gozreh.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.
I do. I'm not sure I've seen any non-dwarf character worship him, while plenty of non-elf characters have worshipped Calistria.

My PFS Champion of Torag is a Cavern Elf. But then, he was Adopted by dwarves, so I'm not sure he counts.

Liberty's Edge

I am now officially referring to the version of Irori we met here as Ultra-Irori.

I might call him Xeno Irori should he ever come and visit the canon Golarion.

Grand Lodge

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The Raven Black wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I don't think Torag as an overtly-coded ancestral deity though.
I do. I'm not sure I've seen any non-dwarf character worship him, while plenty of non-elf characters have worshipped Calistria.
My PFS Champion of Torag is a Cavern Elf. But then, he was Adopted by dwarves, so I'm not sure he counts.

I'll count him.

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