The Godsrain Prophecies Part Four

Wednesday, February 28, 2024

It may seem odd that I have not made any notes within the margins of the prophecies themselves. It is certainly not for lack of opinions, but out of an abundance of caution; some of the most heated debates that I have ever witnessed during my studies dealt with the supposed impartiality of the researcher, with some believing that we should be as unbiased as my fellow psychopomps in their judgments of souls in the Boneyard and others noting that our beliefs influence everything we do, and should be acknowledged and even used within the way we work. The arguments grew heated more than once, and while it cannot be said for sure that they led to what some call “The Dueling Quills Incident,” they certainly caused plenty of frayed nerves.

This particular debate has taken on new meaning for me now, though, in reading of one supposed divine death after another. Maybe it is something I will grow out of one day, but it is hard not to be affected by these, whether I am mourning the potential loss of the Lady I serve or learning of the potential demise of a god I do not care for. I’m not sure I would ever want to view them and feel nothing but analysis. Passion drove me to this work and passion should be part of it—for all I know, that may even have been what brought me to my Lady’s attention. Still, I will present the prophecy with no further comment, and fear that once I have read it fully, even my small bit of glee will dissipate. As always, momentary gains bring unexpected consequences.

—Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Urgathoa

The feast is a sumptuous spread of delights if that’s the sort of thing you like. Piles of sweets and meats and cheeses, decadence on decadence, to celebrate a distant plague gone better than expected. Urgathoa is smiling as the undead shovel down the food, the flavors barely noticed in their urge to sate their hunger. It would all make Arazni sick, if that was still a thing she felt, and if she wasn’t steeled by something greater than revulsion. For all the gods Urgathoa hates, and all who hate her in return, she hasn’t even bothered to secure her own protection, relying on the undead to sniff out any intruder. Except they know Arazni’s scent. A tiny boon from all her years forced into undead servitude, now sharpened to a weapon to take down the god who dared to bring undeath to the unwilling.

Arazni moves in shadow, and if the diners notice, they barely pause their latest gulp to see her blade unsheathe. Urgathoa dies easily, falls lengthwise on the table, face-first into a centerpiece of something rich and juicy. As panic and dismay begin to spread throughout the Bloodrot, Arazni leaves the way she came, a vengeful shadow baring teeth in something like a smile. Divinity is still a thing she’s learning to inhabit, but this almost makes everything she’s suffered seem worthwhile.

Arazni waits, for…something—some rest for those trapped in undeath, some halt to necromantic work, some alteration in what had been a truly loathsome status quo. And there are places in the world where she can see the fruits of her handiwork—the Whispering Way is driven back, Geb’s Blood Lords struggle for control—until the undead start to rise from any perished soul. Not all, but some, begin to turn without a necromancer’s aid, and stagger from their resting places trying to fill their hunger. Without Urgathoa to lend some order to the chaos, some dead stay locked inside their graves, while others now reanimate with no real rhyme or reason, rising from their tombs and slowly crawling off battlefields, horrified and terrified and sometimes all too eager to see what unholy agenda their new bodies can pursue.

In places where undead have always been a threat to life and limb, the champions against them try their best to hold the line, not looking at the faces that are suddenly familiar, comrades-at-arms turned into bodies cut down by their blades. Some look to magic to protect the bodies of the newly-dead, but magic has its limits, and others fall to the horror they once tried to quell. At least they know how to respond, unlike those who are wrapped in grief, only to see a loved one rise as some new transformation. Do you love or do you fear? Do you watch or do you help? Do you wait or do you run and run and keep on running?

Some families go missing now. Some villages are overrun. Some cities bar their crypts and add guard shifts to every other street. Some call undeath a blessing, see the change as nectar from the gods. Some view it as a threat to something they once lived and died for. Others search for patterns, narrow in on who or what is to blame, let something they don’t understand consume their baser instincts, and rain fire down on those they think have brought this new world forth.

Arazni owns what she has done, seeks out the help of other gods, but they know just as little and have found themselves just as besieged, as undeath spreads like the diseases Urgathoa once held dear, refusing to contain itself to one singular plane. And as the numbers slowly rise, a flood that grows by sodden inches, one undead soul at a time from Axis to the Boneyard, some say the Pallid Princess watches from some place beyond undeath, relishing the moment like a feast to truly savor.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Pharasma, and Urgathoa’s portraits have been marked “safe.””

The severity of this prophecy ensures that even I, a loyal servant of the Lady of Graves, take no joy in the foretold destruction of the Pallid Princess. May that these prophecies prove untrue!





That was, to say the least, unexpected. While the horrors of undead potentially coming from every grave are one thing (and something that I know my Lady will not enjoy, no matter how untrue this prophecy may turn out to be), Arazni’s direct role in this cataclysm is not something I am quite sure how to parse. She has broken free from her centuries of servitude as Geb’s unwilling lich queen, and in so doing attained true divinity, a risen herald. With her newfound power, is she capable of slaying a fellow god? Is this merely one facet of the unreliability of these prophecies? Perhaps I should begin watching Arazni more closely, as some sort of harbinger, a sign that this alone among the prophecies is true? Does she have knowledge of this prophecy, and if not, is this something to warn her of? I will be dusting off my copy of What the Future Holds: The Ethics of Prophecy immediately. In the meantime, my Lady will know what to do with this. All I must do now is move forward.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Shadow Lodge

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Sy Kerraduess wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
E Rank Luck wrote:
This one...makes like no sense.

I mean, note that ALL stories so far contain an element that breaks setting

You can consider it sort of red flag about "this seems extremely unlikely".

Plot twist: the author of these prophecies isn't being deceitful on purpose, they just took the Dubious Knowledge feat and they failed 19 of their 20 rolls.

Understandable, the DC is REALLY high.


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Notably, Urgathoa is a deity of gluttony; her sponsorship of the undead is spurred by a selfish desire to not let death stop one from consuming pleasures. Most intelligent and many corporeal forms of undeath feed on the living, and one could easily posit that Urgathoa likewise feasts on either souls or the act of removing souls from the cycle, as she had once removed herself.

In Inner Sea Gods, re: her worshipers' relationship with the Whispering Way, suggests that because intelligent Urgathoan undead like vampires and ghouls can't feed on fellow undead, they work to prevent the entirety of mortal existence from becoming undead since it would starve those who rely on mortal flesh.

So perhaps it's not that Urgathoa is a "stopper" on the world turning undead, but rather a "stopper" on the forces who would do so, as an existence entirely of undeath leaves her and her followers nothing to feast upon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Loved it!

Liberty's Edge

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Vee8 wrote:

iirc, Urgathoa was the very first undead in the lore. The first to blasphemy against the natural cycle of life and death. As the first undead and undead god at that, a bunch of undead and diseases were also created following her ascension.

If this is true, then Urgathoa may be intrinsically tied to the underlying mechanics of undeath itself. Her dying could indeed change the rules of undeath. Without her effectively dictating what the very rules of undeath are through her very existence, some chaos is to be expected. This wouldn't necessarily undo undeath itself though so much as change it.

What I find more interesting about this prophecy is that it actually doesn't focus on Urgathoa at all. It's almost entirely about Arazni.

Between Yivali's comments on the weirdness of this prophecy focusing on Arazni and the meta knowledge of Arazni joining the core pantheon, I think it may be that Arazni is more powerful than even Arazni herself realizes.

There are fragments of truth in these prophecies I think. Arazni may be gifted as a potential god-slayer. Interesting if true, and the implications of such a gift in the future of the events to come make Arazni a god to keep a very close eye on.

Could the soul of Arazni actually have become a haven for the souls of the heroes who beat the Whispering Tyrant ?

Spoiler:
I mean becoming part of a deity sure beats having your soul disappear into nothingness.


I'm glad it isn't Urgathoa who kicks the bucket (again!), she's my favourite Undead Goddess after all.


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There goes the theory that Arazni would take over Urgathoa's domain.

We now have three death gods. The goddess of the dead, the goddess of undead, and the undead goddess who sort of wishes she was dead.


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Simeon wrote:
Travelling Sasha wrote:
Simeon wrote:
Woo! Hard to kill what's already dead. The hint that Arazni might be the one to do the slaying is lending credence to my theory that it'll be Iomedae.
Wait, why would Arazni slay Iomedae? Did I miss something? I believe the only thing we've been told about them (unfortunately, because I'd like to hear more) in so far is that Arazni has complex and ambivalent feelings about her old Paladin: That she resented her for reaching divinity easily, and that she was proud of her for her victory over the Shining Crusade.

So there's one important detail about her relationship to Iomedae that isn't explicitly stated when sources describe Arazni's relationships with other gods. The Knights of Ozem, led by Iomedae at the time, summoned Arazni to help fight against the Whispering Tyrant. Despite Arazni being willing and eager to fight, the Knights bound Arazni to their will. With Iomedae as the leader of the knights, who else would've held the reins of power or given the order the bind Arazni? Because of that binding, she was unable to retreat when the Whispering Tyrant gained the upper ground, and she died because of it.

Essentially, Iomedae willfully allowed Arazni to be murdered and kicked off the whole series of events that led to her becoming a lich. Arazni commands her followers to "despise and never forgive those who hurt you" and if I was in her shoes, I would see Iomedae as a person who hurt me.

Arazni is only ever described as blaming Aroden for that though. With her thoughts on Iomedae being a combination of "resentful of her successor Iomedae for having reached divinity so successfully and easily, and proud of her for having won the Shining Crusade, and recognises that none should be subjected to her ordeals" copying from the wiki rather than Tyrants Grasp here but the summary is pretty much on point. But I dont see it as suggesting that Arazni felt betrayed by the Knights so much as Aroden himself


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Unlike other folks, I think Urgathoa's death producing a big release of undead into the world makes perfect sense - I'd expect Gorum's to unleash war and Gozreh's to unleash storms, after all. Cool prophecy!

Chalk half a point up for my girl Arazni.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
There goes the theory that Arazni would take over Urgathoa's domain.

We've been told several times now that Arazni is not taking the place or domains of the deity who dies.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

i love how all of these "prophecies" contain elements of complete impossibility, but in such a way that they would cause heresy and apostasy if the were widely shared.

I don't want it to be, but these all read like lies that Norgerberg would really love to sitting on top of, to share at exactly the wrong time.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thank god, I was slightly worried my wife’s Urgathoa tattoo was about to become even more complicated to explain to family members.


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Garrett Guillotte wrote:
So perhapse it's not that Urgathoa is a "stopper" on the world turning undead, but rather a "stopper" on the forces who would do so, as an existence entirely of undeath leaves her and her followers nothing to feast upon.

I like that. I was kinda debating how upset Geb would be over losing all his "quick" uhhhh, let's say workforce. But thinking about it at the more divine scale is even more spicy.

Dark Archive

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
She enjoys undeath far too much to ever risk it coming to an end.

That's what I meant by the last part. If Urgathoa were aware that her death would corrupt every soul that dies, her biggest project would be to figure out if something short of dying permanently would have the same effect. If nothing else, she'd be much more aggressive because she knows that the other deities can't afford to kill her.

This has to be something Urgathoa is completely unaware of.

I think it makes sense. Think of it like this:

There is some arbitrarily large amount of void energy available to create/sustain undead.

As goddess of undeath, Urgathoa siphons of X% of that energy for her own purposes, presumably parceling some of it out to her followers and any necromancers/undead/soon-to-be undead she has plans for and, in her capacity as first undead and goddess of gluttony, quite possibly gorging herself on the rest to sustain and/or increase her own power. Any necromancers/undead not drawing their power from Urgathoa in some way have to compete with each other over whatever percentage of void energy she leaves behind.

Then Arazni kills her and suddenly the proverbial dam bursts, flooding that void energy Urgathoa kept for herself back out into the multiverse.


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A bit bizzare that undead all over Golarion would be made far more numerous and prominent with the dead of the Godddess of Undeath! You'd think if anything that they'd be weakened by the death of Urgathoa. Also the end of the prophecy indicates that Urgathoa may not be truly DEAD? How does a Deity avoid their own death AFTER they've been SLAIN? Truly bizzare ...

Shadow Lodge

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That which is dead, cannot die...


Simeon wrote:


So there's one important detail about her relationship to Iomedae that isn't explicitly stated when sources describe Arazni's relationships with other gods. The Knights of Ozem, led by Iomedae at the time, summoned Arazni to help fight against the Whispering Tyrant. Despite Arazni being willing and eager to fight, the Knights bound Arazni to their will. With Iomedae as the leader of the knights, who else would've held the reins of power or given the order the bind Arazni? Because of that binding, she was unable to retreat when the Whispering Tyrant gained the upper ground, and she died because of it.

Essentially, Iomedae willfully allowed Arazni to be murdered and kicked off the whole series of events that led to her becoming a lich. Arazni commands her followers to "despise and never forgive those who hurt you" and if I was in her shoes, I would see Iomedae as a person who hurt me.

Ah, right. I've seen this understanding being mentioned here and there, and pretty often.

I mean, I dunno. Feels really weird that Iomedae could even be aware of this - knowing how she is like, I don't think she would have allowed that to happen, to anyone really and especially not to her own patron deity. She even kept her paladin powers after the event, and came to serve Aroden only a good few years later on her life, no? Why would Arazni empower the person who did that to her?

That such resentment isn't ever mentioned anywhere, even during or after Arazni is being freed while her relationship to Iomedae is actually being defined (during Tyrant's Grasp, if I'm not mistaken) seems a clear indicator to me that that wasn't a thing. IMO one could extrapolate why Iomedae didn't attempt to free Arazni while she served Geb for example, but even then I think it's likelier that she did try but wasn't able to, otherwise surely Arazni's feelings toward her would explicitly be more negative.

Liberty's Edge

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Simeon wrote:
Travelling Sasha wrote:
Simeon wrote:
Woo! Hard to kill what's already dead. The hint that Arazni might be the one to do the slaying is lending credence to my theory that it'll be Iomedae.
Wait, why would Arazni slay Iomedae? Did I miss something? I believe the only thing we've been told about them (unfortunately, because I'd like to hear more) in so far is that Arazni has complex and ambivalent feelings about her old Paladin: That she resented her for reaching divinity easily, and that she was proud of her for her victory over the Shining Crusade.

So there's one important detail about her relationship to Iomedae that isn't explicitly stated when sources describe Arazni's relationships with other gods. The Knights of Ozem, led by Iomedae at the time, summoned Arazni to help fight against the Whispering Tyrant. Despite Arazni being willing and eager to fight, the Knights bound Arazni to their will. With Iomedae as the leader of the knights, who else would've held the reins of power or given the order the bind Arazni? Because of that binding, she was unable to retreat when the Whispering Tyrant gained the upper ground, and she died because of it.

Essentially, Iomedae willfully allowed Arazni to be murdered and kicked off the whole series of events that led to her becoming a lich. Arazni commands her followers to "despise and never forgive those who hurt you" and if I was in her shoes, I would see Iomedae as a person who hurt me.

IIRC Iomedae was not the leader of the Knights of Ozem when they summoned Arazni and knew nothing about it.


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While spit balling for next Godsrain Contingencies... *sigh* Why did it have to be so many zombies in my Pathfinder. This becomes that. People going to be doing this. Probably gotta...
Wait overrun by zombies?
Is this Hopefinder on Golarion?

Bullllllmaaaaaaaaaaahn!


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Welp, now that was an oopsie.

So, I don't think her death would lead to a FOREVER plague of the undead; I mean it might as WELL be forever to the people who'd die during it, whether from it or of old age, but eventually there'd be no more turn-into-undead-ness from her.
It's like a hornet's nest, I guess; at SOME POINT there won't be any hornets left to swarm from it, if you've swung a bat at the nest, but that point will come WAY after you wish it would.


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I'm imagining Urgathoa's corpse going off like a puffball mushroom.

The thought makes me giggle. Don't mind my new cough.


keftiu wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
There goes the theory that Arazni would take over Urgathoa's domain.
We've been told several times now that Arazni is not taking the place or domains of the deity who dies.

Not really.

We were told she didn't *necessarily* take over those domains. It would after all be giving something away to say otherwise...

We're really checking off evil deities though. We've got Zon-Kuthon, Norgorber, Lamashtu, and Rovagug left. And there's no way in heck it's Rovagug.


Welp, there goes another of my guesses; amazing story though. Urgathoa's death being a perverse kind of generosity, countering her domain of gluttony by "gifting" countless, random millions with undeath is pretty fitting.

Still wish she'd been dragged down by lesser undeath deities, her death bringing rise to countless more, but that's a story I can always write for myself I s'ppose, and, you know, divine Arazni revenge fanfiction is good on its own.


Perpdepog wrote:

Welp, there goes another of my guesses; amazing story though. Urgathoa's death being a perverse kind of generosity, countering her domain of gluttony by "gifting" countless, random millions with undeath is pretty fitting.

Still wish she'd been dragged down by lesser undeath deities, her death bringing rise to countless more, but that's a story I can always write for myself I s'ppose, and, you know, divine Arazni revenge fanfiction is good on its own.

I still bet it's Zon-Kuthon, because that actually would affect the Prismatic Ray without murdering Shelyn or Sarenrae (and Desna dying would just be weird - I don't even know what that would mean for the setting besides people getting lost more often)

Liberty's Edge

2 wrong guesses in a row for deities who would not get stories. I wonder how long I will maintain this streak.


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While the prophecy/story itself wasn't exactly easy to follow re: the logic of the cascading unfurling of endless undead, the comments have definitely made it clear. And it makes a lot of sense to me. I think folks get caught up on deities being one wholistic symbol of a theme, rather than many different approaches to "meaning" across individuals within the pantheon. Some of the deities are incredibly simple, non-complex what you see is what you get. Others are more complicated, or rather, at sidereal vantages of perception.

Thus with Urgathoa. Her selfishness. Her love for undeath. Her hold on undeath. Her hatred of death. Her desire for everything. It makes what she is, what she does, what she wants, and what her end will mean many-parted and full of at times mutually contradictory outcomes. Or so it seems to our febrile mortal minds. Nothing exists in a vaccuum without being affected by that vacuum or being considered to be in a vacuum. By something. Or something.


Calliope5431 wrote:
...We now have three death gods. The goddess of the dead, the goddess of undead, and the undead goddess who sort of wishes she was dead.

Yep. I love it. It's like a Maiden, Mother and Crone for a gothaboo.

More metal!


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“The Dueling Quills Incident” has definitely provoked my curiosity.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It really seems to me like the link of all these prophecies is that they would be disruptive to the faithful if they were to get out into the public. Like it is not necessarily what the deity is afraid of, but it would be a prophecy that, if even based on a kernel of truth would cause a lot of worshipers to question their faith, or potentially undermine the authority of that god over their domains.

For this one, I don't think it would spook living worshipers, but if there were undead worshipers who's faith was predicated on assuming that Urgathoa is promoting the cause of undeath across Golarion, I could see them getting pretty mad/considering how they might contribute to her final death to bring about such an apocalypse. Minimally, they might at least start questioning her commitment to the cause and think a better champion of the cause might be worth finding and taking her place. I think that link could potentially connect all of this to the upcoming godswar. Undermining the faith of your enemies worshipers would be a powerful weapon.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
She enjoys undeath far too much to ever risk it coming to an end.
That's what I meant by the last part. If Urgathoa were aware that her death would corrupt every soul that dies, her biggest project would be to figure out if something short of dying permanently would have the same effect.

Yeah, like, she'd probably be sending necromancers out to get stomped by gods to see if that can trigger a similar power release, making mythic liches, creating ghosts who run nations that ensure entire mega-regions of the world are eating vegetables that have been handled by rotting undead, urging the creation of ever-more powerful undead to see if any of them can serve as the appropriate catalyst, etc. Maybe she'd even push one of the uber-powerful undead she created to try and become a god themselves in the hopes that their death while they were still acclimating to the power could do the thing, and even if that chump didn't manage to ascend to godhood, they'd still probably cause enough damage to replace an entire nation of knights and paladins with some kind of horrific "gravelands" that continues to spread undeath like an infection across the Inner Sea.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Coordinator

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Michael Sayre wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
She enjoys undeath far too much to ever risk it coming to an end.
That's what I meant by the last part. If Urgathoa were aware that her death would corrupt every soul that dies, her biggest project would be to figure out if something short of dying permanently would have the same effect.
Yeah, like, she'd probably be making mythic liches, sending necromancers out to get stomped by gods to see if that can trigger a similar power release, creating ghosts who run nations that ensure entire mega-regions of the world are eating vegetables that have been handled by rotting undead, urging the creation of ever-more powerful undead to see if any of them can serve as the appropriate catalyst, etc. Maybe she'd even push one of the uber-powerful undead she created to try and become a god themselves in the hopes that their death while they were still acclimating to the power could do the thing, and even if that chump didn't manage to ascend to godhood, they'd still probably cause enough damage to replace an entire nation of knights and paladins with some kind of horrific "gravelands" that continues to spread undeath like an infection across the Inner Sea.

Michael these ideas are all patently ridiculous, literally none of that could possibly happen in Golarion. Now if you excuse me I'll be taking a big drink of water and opening literally any Lost Omens book to find out what is happening in Golarion these days.


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E Rank Luck wrote:

This one...makes like no sense. How does Urgathoa's death impact Pharasma's ability to take in the souls of the deceased properly. Like, this outcome feels more like what happens when Pharasma dies than anything. But instead Urgathoa dying makes Undead *more* prevalent and somehow neither magic or the servants of the boneyard are apparently able to do anything about it? This feels like the first L of this series which is a damn shame because I've been loving them.

...also its gonna be Iomedae isnt it. Dammit.

People blow horns at her corpse.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
There goes the theory that Arazni would take over Urgathoa's domain.
We've been told several times now that Arazni is not taking the place or domains of the deity who dies.

Not really.

We were told she didn't *necessarily* take over those domains. It would after all be giving something away to say otherwise...

Have a direct quote from Luis on Reddit, 2 months ago:

Quote:
After this god's death, Arazni will be filling the empty slot in the core 20. Arazni is not taking over the dead god's portfolio or anything. There is simply an empty space that she will happen to fill.

This is not the only time it's been said; I'm almost certain it was reiterated on the LO: Divine Mysteries livestream.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Urgathoa isn't one I ever gave much thought one way or the other, so I'm not too terribly invested in her fate...

But I kinda like that her destruction lets free the thing she embodies... because it does a lot to explain how, in a cosmology where deities can be killed off, the powerful and hostile-to-the-whole-concept-of-undeath Pharasma hasn't just stomped her at some point in the long span of Urgathoa's existence.

When Aroden died (admittedly, he was very much a divine flash in the pan, boy was not actually around all that long!), humanity hardly went into some kind of retreat- they found new patrons- more diverse patrons, as Cheliax went to Azzy, the Shining Crusade moved their flag to Iopmeae, etc. Prophecy "broke," but that was as much in Pharasma's (among others!) wheelhouse as his.


keftiu wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
There goes the theory that Arazni would take over Urgathoa's domain.
We've been told several times now that Arazni is not taking the place or domains of the deity who dies.

Not really.

We were told she didn't *necessarily* take over those domains. It would after all be giving something away to say otherwise...

Have a direct quote from Luis on Reddit, 2 months ago:

Quote:
After this god's death, Arazni will be filling the empty slot in the core 20. Arazni is not taking over the dead god's portfolio or anything. There is simply an empty space that she will happen to fill.

This is not the only time it's been said; I'm almost certain it was reiterated on the LO: Divine Mysteries livestream.

My point was more that there was an open slot and Urgathoa had similar themes. So it would have made sense for her to get whacked because of the overlap.

Anyway, I'm quite happy Urgathoa is not getting whacked, because she's probably one the more unique pathfinder deities (everyone has a Poseidon knockoff nature god and a good sun god after all).


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Alex Speidel wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
She enjoys undeath far too much to ever risk it coming to an end.
That's what I meant by the last part. If Urgathoa were aware that her death would corrupt every soul that dies, her biggest project would be to figure out if something short of dying permanently would have the same effect.
Yeah, like, she'd probably be making mythic liches, sending necromancers out to get stomped by gods to see if that can trigger a similar power release, creating ghosts who run nations that ensure entire mega-regions of the world are eating vegetables that have been handled by rotting undead, urging the creation of ever-more powerful undead to see if any of them can serve as the appropriate catalyst, etc. Maybe she'd even push one of the uber-powerful undead she created to try and become a god themselves in the hopes that their death while they were still acclimating to the power could do the thing, and even if that chump didn't manage to ascend to godhood, they'd still probably cause enough damage to replace an entire nation of knights and paladins with some kind of horrific "gravelands" that continues to spread undeath like an infection across the Inner Sea.
Michael these ideas are all patently ridiculous, literally none of that could possibly happen in Golarion. Now if you excuse me I'll be taking a big drink of water and opening literally any Lost Omens book to find out what is happening in Golarion these days.
Literally Any Lost Omens Book wrote:
Everything's fiiiiiiiiiiiine. Fine. It's fine. Everything is fine, all fine. IT'S FINE!


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Some of y'all are taking the microfiction too damn seriously. It's all just "what could be a fun/interesting cause or effect," crossed with "how would this differ from the 'god chunks scattered bloody across Golarion' deal we know is coming." This isn't the "canonical" result of Urg's demise any more than Cayden is "canonically" a false idol. These are stories, dammit, even in-universe they're just stories.

Grand Lodge

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TheTownsend wrote:
Some of y'all are taking the microfiction too damn seriously. It's all just "what could be a fun/interesting cause or effect," crossed with "how would this differ from the 'god chunks scattered bloody across Golarion' deal we know is coming." This isn't the "canonical" result of Urg's demise any more than Cayden is "canonically" a false idol. These are stories, dammit, even in-universe they're just stories.

Taking things TOO SERIOUSLY? On AL GORE'S INTERNET? Surely you are mistaken!


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I read this differently than many of you. I don't think the undead are rising from every grave. They're potentially rising from every grave though, because the being that controlled undeath is no longer at the helm and it is just going off willy nilly.

[quoteNot all, but some, begin to turn without a necromancer’s aid, and stagger from their resting places trying to fill their hunger. Without Urgathoa to lend some order to the chaos, some dead stay locked inside their graves, while others now reanimate with no real rhyme or reason, rising from their tombs and slowly crawling off battlefields, horrified and terrified and sometimes all too eager to see what unholy agenda their new bodies can pursue.

This is the key section for my take. Under Urgotha, necromantic energy could be controlled. Channeled. Directed. Without her, it just happens, and can happen anywhere. It can't be stopped because there's simply not enough magic to stop it everywhere. It also sounds like the deliberate creation of undead is no longer reliable (some dead stay locked inside their graves).

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Nah, those undead still get created but find they can’t get out of the coffin six feet under, so they experience undeath as endless entombment. Before, the necromancer would have gotten them exhumed before animating, now the random animation leaves some unable to get free.


FINE

"F~#$ed up, Insecure, Neurotic, Egotistical"
Ruth Zardo

in any number of Louise Penny books.


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I was away for a few months but decided to jump back here for a bit when I heard someone say "Death of Urgathoa" because I wanted to be smug about how "I called it", but turns out not only is she safe but Pharasma is as well? Darn.

Well, next bet is on Rovagug, third time's the charm.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think betting on any of the bad guys getting it might be looking at long odds.

Putting aside the fact that Arazni is categorically less-awful than just about any of them, the event isn't really being presented as the cause for celebration most of these dirtbags getting it in the neck would be.

Of the bad guys left, whose demise would make for a good story?

Azzmatazz and Urgathoa are both okay. That just leaves Nordberg, Zonny-Boy, Rover, and Lamashtu.

Norgobbler isn't one I'd miss (I find him more useful than Cayden, but it's marginal), but the sheer number of bad guy cults he can sponsor while being a wholly-owned bit of Paizo IP... and his death? Given his whole secretive schtick, he'd be like friggin' Alpharius in 40k...

"Ah, but is he really dead?!"
"Pretty sure, seeing as I ripped his head off."
"But was that really him?"
"You know what, I don't even care anymore."

Zonny-Boy feels like most of the gas is left in his villainous tank. His whole story is the mystery of what happened to him to turn Dou-Bral into Zon-Kuthon. Unpicking that feels like a more rewarding story thread than in just tossing his deific corpse into the stratosphere and bathing in the fallout. He and Shelyn are unresolved deific business, and with all due respect to the merge theories out there, the relationship is most interesting with them alive, opposed, but Shelyn holding out hope for her brother's redemption.

Lamashtu's whole deal is just so neat and omnipresent that I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where her death is more interesting than her survival. She's also a divine murderer of record, making her a natural suspect whoever else gets it in the neck, and I just don't see wasting a perfectly good red herring as wise.

Rovagug is loaded with importance as the guy so bad he could get Asmodeus to play a relatively straight hand with the other deities. Plus being presented as so insanely powerful that the gods banded together to imprison him... I don't see him getting shanked in a one-off. Although I will admit, figuring out who could pull off what the efforts of multiple gods totally failed to achieve in the past makes him, in my estimation, the most likely of the remaining Team Bad Guy lineup to take a dirt nap.

Dark Archive

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Personally, I'd love to see Iomedae die. It would be fun to see the chaos that would happen across the world as her clerics and paladins lose their holy power! Could make for some interesting adventures for Pathfinder Society!


Cole Deschain wrote:

I think betting on any of the bad guys getting it might be looking at long odds.

Putting aside the fact that Arazni is categorically less-awful than just about any of them, the event isn't really being presented as the cause for celebration most of these dirtbags getting it in the neck would be.

Of the bad guys left, whose demise would make for a good story?

Azzmatazz and Urgathoa are both okay. That just leaves Nordberg, Zonny-Boy, Rover, and Lamashtu.

Norgobbler isn't one I'd miss (I find him more useful than Cayden, but it's marginal), but the sheer number of bad guy cults he can sponsor while being a wholly-owned bit of Paizo IP... and his death? Given his whole secretive schtick, he'd be like friggin' Alpharius in 40k...

"Ah, but is he really dead?!"
"Pretty sure, seeing as I ripped his head off."
"But was that really him?"
"You know what, I don't even care anymore."

Zonny-Boy feels like most of the gas is left in his villainous tank. His whole story is the mystery of what happened to him to turn Dou-Bral into Zon-Kuthon. Unpicking that feels like a more rewarding story thread than in just tossing his deific corpse into the stratosphere and bathing in the fallout. He and Shelyn are unresolved deific business, and with all due respect to the merge theories out there, the relationship is most interesting with them alive, opposed, but Shelyn holding out hope for her brother's redemption.

Lamashtu's whole deal is just so neat and omnipresent that I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where her death is more interesting than her survival. She's also a divine murderer of record, making her a natural suspect whoever else gets it in the neck, and I just don't see wasting a perfectly good red herring as wise.

Rovagug is loaded with importance as the guy so bad he could get Asmodeus to play a relatively straight hand with the other deities. Plus being presented as so insanely powerful that the gods banded together to imprison him... I...

I think it may have been categorically stated that we'll never know what is possessing Zon Kuthon.

It's similar to devourers. Any answers you provide make it way less creepy. And Paizo likes leaving open areas for GMs to fill in.

I agree with you that the death is not being presented as a good thing though...

Liberty's Edge

Mr. Phillips, GM of Intrigue wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see Iomedae die. It would be fun to see the chaos that would happen across the world as her clerics and paladins lose their holy power! Could make for some interesting adventures for Pathfinder Society!

IIRC PFS characters will not lose their powers, no matter which deity dies.


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/spooky-intonation

Death is not the end.

Liberty's Edge

keftiu wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
There goes the theory that Arazni would take over Urgathoa's domain.
We've been told several times now that Arazni is not taking the place or domains of the deity who dies.

Not really.

We were told she didn't *necessarily* take over those domains. It would after all be giving something away to say otherwise...

Have a direct quote from Luis on Reddit, 2 months ago:

Quote:
After this god's death, Arazni will be filling the empty slot in the core 20. Arazni is not taking over the dead god's portfolio or anything. There is simply an empty space that she will happen to fill.

This is not the only time it's been said; I'm almost certain it was reiterated on the LO: Divine Mysteries livestream.

I think Arazni can still have domains (as in the Domain Initiate feat) in common with the dead deity though.

Liberty's Edge

Unicore wrote:

It really seems to me like the link of all these prophecies is that they would be disruptive to the faithful if they were to get out into the public. Like it is not necessarily what the deity is afraid of, but it would be a prophecy that, if even based on a kernel of truth would cause a lot of worshipers to question their faith, or potentially undermine the authority of that god over their domains.

For this one, I don't think it would spook living worshipers, but if there were undead worshipers who's faith was predicated on assuming that Urgathoa is promoting the cause of undeath across Golarion, I could see them getting pretty mad/considering how they might contribute to her final death to bring about such an apocalypse. Minimally, they might at least start questioning her commitment to the cause and think a better champion of the cause might be worth finding and taking her place. I think that link could potentially connect all of this to the upcoming godswar. Undermining the faith of your enemies worshipers would be a powerful weapon.

This is a captivating insight.

Imagine the chaos that would happen if these prophecies (and the fact that one of Pharasma's servants knew about them) were becoming more common knowledge AFTER the deity dies.

It opens up so many possibilities previously deemed impossible.

Grand Lodge

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Mr. Phillips, GM of Intrigue wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see Iomedae die. It would be fun to see the chaos that would happen across the world as her clerics and paladins lose their holy power! Could make for some interesting adventures for Pathfinder Society!

It would make the edgelords happy. And basically nobody else.

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