Experience the World in Exploration Mode

Farien, what are you doing?

Huh?

I dunno. It has been more than six seconds. I lost interest.

Hello, does someone have a question they want to ask?

Hello, does someone have a question they want to ask?

Sorry. We thought you were aware of the ambiguity in the Minion rules. There are some long debates about it. I can find one of the threads here.

Edit: Found another one here.

Basically the debate comes down to the fact that we don't know how long a minion, such as a familiar or animal companion, is able to follow commands when given commands outside of combat.

While in combat, the rules for both commanded minions and uncommanded minions are defined.

Outside of combat, only the uncommanded minion rules are defined. So we don't know what they are capable of in exploration mode.

Thanks, the topic did not come up when we were planning this blog that is particularly aimed at new players. We can look into some clarification.

I have to admit the name "exploration mode" really threw me off when I was first learning the system.

I had mostly skipped that section of the book because I thought for sure it had to be some special mode that wouldn't come up in normal play.

And then it turned out it's really just whatever we're doing when we're not fighting! Oops!

Hopefully a blog like this will help new players avoid making that mistake!

Though the ship is clearly long sailed a half edition ago, I would have to agree. The world “outside of stabbity-stabbity” (whether with weapons or social barbs, or chased feet hitting pavement) is leagues and dimensions more than “Exploration”. But what that might be better termed as I’m not sure. It does throw me from time to time, until I remember it as “the E-mode that is *not* the Encounter mode”.

Some shade in this thread!

Wondering if there is some guidance given to transitions between Exploration and Encounter mode.

Ex) Besides Scout, Defend, Avoid Notice, can other activities give a first-round bonus? How?
Ex) What about Refreshing Reactions as Encounters are started? "GM decides"? Or are there additional clarifications?
Ex) I am aware that Hazards, if their triggers are tripped, can "start" an Encounter ("the trap attacks and everyone rolls initiative"...). Is that sort of privilege reserved for one side of the screen? If not, how?

Still awaiting my books in the mail - I think they made it halfway across the country and are now, um, Slowed 1...

=)

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I think the transition between encounter and exploration mode (and back again) is probably one of the trickiest thing to get a handle of in 2e, because it's more defined.

Especially if all the enemies are defeated and the party still has ongoing persistent damage or conditions.

If these beginner blogs inspire more intermediate blogs, or PaizoCon panels, that's great!

Having a defined and somewhat structured mode of play for non-combat stuff is great. When I was beginning TTRPG play, we would default to trying to explore a dungeon effectively in encounter mode - where we had a fixed order, and had to limit our movement, and other such things.

Experienced gamers know not to do this. But having Exploration mode be one of the defined game modes to lead beginners to that type of play is absolutely fantastic.

I've been gaming a looooong time. One of the bedrock principals of virtually any game I've played or run is that the gameworld always runs the same way. For gameplay purposes, we develop certain conventions for how we want to measure and organize things, but the gameworld doesn't know whether or not we have rolled for initiative.

With PF2 that has changed. Exploration Mode and Encounter Mode are distinctly different and do not function the same way. That isn't bad, it's just different, and can take some time to wrap your head around all the implications.

It does definitely simplify how to handle a lot of things that happen out of combat, so I can see it being really helpful for helping newer players understand what is going on.

I've been gaming a looooong time. One of the bedrock principals of virtually any game I've played or run is that the gameworld always runs the same way. For gameplay purposes, we develop certain conventions for how we want to measure and organize things, but the gameworld doesn't know whether or not we have rolled for initiative.

With PF2 that has changed. Exploration Mode and Encounter Mode are distinctly different and do not function the same way. That isn't bad, it's just different, and can take some time to wrap your head around all the implications.

It does definitely simplify how to handle a lot of things that happen out of combat, so I can see it being really helpful for helping newer players understand what is going on.

I think the principle is the same but "the map is not the territory" in the sense that both exploration mode and encounter mode (and downtime mode) are all abstractions of the same underlying thing. When the adjudication seemingly differs, its because its truer to the underlying fiction being simulated. E.g. encounter mode speed doesn't model acceleration because the time frame us too short (sub 6 seconds of movement), but the abstraction of a chase can allow for a 'slower' (in terms of encounter speed) creature to catch a faster one, thereby better modeling the consistent rules of the underlying fiction.

I'm very comfortable GMing, and don't tend to care much about distinct "modes". However, whenever I look back I realize what I was doing naturally aligned well with what's written in the book about exploration mode.

I think the purpose of having different modes is just to indicate when you shouldn't be tracking things on a round by round basis. There were some weird edge cases in the previous edition that could come up by measuring in distinct 6 second intervals that generally didn't make sense in non-tense scenarios.

There are, of course, circumstances when you do want to count in round by round intervals that don't involve combat- like when the guard patrolling this floor just went around the corner, so can you pick the lock and get into the room before they loop back around? I would say that's encounter mode by virtue of "you avoid combat by rolling well enough."

If these beginner blogs inspire more intermediate blogs, or PaizoCon panels, that's great!

Hmm... can we take a look of "new edition of cantrip deck"? Because it was color-coded by now defunct schools...

There are, of course, circumstances when you do want to count in round by round intervals that don't involve combat- like when the guard patrolling this floor just went around the corner, so can you pick the lock and get into the room before they loop back around? I would say that's encounter mode by virtue of "you avoid combat by rolling well enough."

Absolutely. I think there should be (and arguably already is) a 'non-combat Encounter' mode. Where things are still tracked in 6 second round time, but there isn't an enforced initiative order.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

There are, of course, circumstances when you do want to count in round by round intervals that don't involve combat- like when the guard patrolling this floor just went around the corner, so can you pick the lock and get into the room before they loop back around? I would say that's encounter mode by virtue of "you avoid combat by rolling well enough."

Absolutely. I think there should be (and arguably already is) a 'non-combat Encounter' mode. Where things are still tracked in 6 second round time, but there isn't an enforced initiative order.

Skill feats in particular get weird when they are clearly written for combat style encounter mode, but you are operating in a non-combat encounter (chase, social, basically any VP system). I have seen GMs struggle with arbitrating these things, and players get pretty upset when their character can wall jump to the top of 30ft tall buildings without really even having to roll in combat, but suddenly, they’re character critically fails a chase check involving climbing to the roof, that their character could never have failed in a combat encounter.

The 3 modes of play and especially exploration was one of the determining factors in piquing my interest to even start playing pathfinder. Equally as important to the 3 action system. Having a mechanical structure to ask my players what they are doing after combat gets the thoughts flowing.

Great to see a blog about it for new players.

Thanks, the topic did not come up when we were planning this blog that is particularly aimed at new players. We can look into some clarification.

That would be fantastic.

In the interests of not further derailing this thread, I started a new thread here to collect the questions that the community currently has regarding Minions.

The way I tend to approach Out-of-Combat-Mode is somewhat split between the 2e Exploration mode and [that other game]'s old Skill Challenges.

I run things like Chases with skill challenges, awarding points for success/Crit success and removing points for Crit fails. Fall of Plaguestone uses this kind of mechanic in the first chapter, and Gatewalkers uses something similar for the Investigation portion of the game. It's very similar, again, to the Influence system put forward in the 2e Kingmaker game.

I really only use the "base" Exploration activities (Scout, Repeat a Spell, Defend, etc.) when the PCs are in a place where an encounter is likely to occur - aka, a "dungeon".

Wondering if there is some guidance given to transitions between Exploration and Encounter mode.

Ex) Besides Scout, Defend, Avoid Notice, can other activities give a first-round bonus? How?
Ex) What about Refreshing Reactions as Encounters are started? "GM decides"? Or are there additional clarifications?
Ex) I am aware that Hazards, if their triggers are tripped, can "start" an Encounter ("the trap attacks and everyone rolls initiative"...). Is that sort of privilege reserved for one side of the screen? If not, how?

Yes, the transition into encounter mode is important, but hardly described at all.

Ex1: There are supposed to be other ways to use your repeated action, fully customizable. But not all GMs allow custom activities at all. For instance if your ally is raising a tower shield you might be able to use Defend to Take Cover behind that shield rather than raising your own shield, to start the first round with cover.

Ex2: The majority seem to think that reactions do exist during exploration, for instance for Grab a Ledge, but then get erased when initiative happens. You don't get your reaction back until your first turn. If that's not accurate, it could use a correction.

Ex3: Not just hazards, it seems that all monsters ALWAYS get to decide when to "start" combat. The party has no effect on this, even standard exploration activities such as Scout and Search have no effect. Even in an ambush, the monsters decide how close to get before the ambush is triggered. For instance: Two groups see eachother coming on a long straight road while still 3 miles away. The wizard prepares to fireball as soon as they get in range (500 feet). The enemies can decide to be within 40 feet before initiative is rolled.

Ex3: Not just hazards, it seems that all monsters ALWAYS get to decide when to "start" combat. The party has no effect on this, even standard exploration activities such as Scout and Search have no effect. Even in an ambush, the monsters decide how close to get before the ambush is triggered. For instance: Two groups see eachother coming on a long straight road while still 3 miles away. The wizard prepares to fireball as soon as they get in range (500 feet). The enemies can decide to be within 40 feet before initiative is rolled.

Surely this is a GM issue rather than a rules issue. I’m certain that if we encountered this situation with my regular GM, and neither group was trying to get off the road, he would allow the fireball and then have us roll initiative. At worst he’d have a semi-simultaneous spell attack from the opposing party that coincides with the fireball

...

Skill feats in particular get weird when they are clearly written for combat style encounter mode, but you are operating in a non-combat encounter (chase, social, basically any VP system). I have seen GMs struggle with arbitrating these things, and players get pretty upset when their character can wall jump to the top of 30ft tall buildings without really even having to roll in combat, but suddenly, they’re character critically fails a chase check involving climbing to the roof, that their character could never have failed in a combat encounter.

It's the Wile E. Coyote problem. So long as you act in the heat of the moment, the laws of physics have no hold on you. But if you have time to pause and think about things...

Unicore wrote:

...

Skill feats in particular get weird when they are clearly written for combat style encounter mode, but you are operating in a non-combat encounter (chase, social, basically any VP system). I have seen GMs struggle with arbitrating these things, and players get pretty upset when their character can wall jump to the top of 30ft tall buildings without really even having to roll in combat, but suddenly, they’re character critically fails a chase check involving climbing to the roof, that their character could never have failed in a combat encounter.

It's the Wile E. Coyote problem. So long as you act in the heat of the moment, the laws of physics have no hold on you. But if you have time to pause and think about things...

Easily done. Just critically fail an Intelligence check. DC 5 at most.

This is a tangential anecdote at best, but I got into a quarrel with a TikTok GM creator who insisted that it was impossible for an encounter to end with the PCs convincing the enemies to surrender (by talking during combat), because there were no rules to do that.

It blew me away. No matter how many times I gave some variation of, "It's a roleplaying game, and the GM can decide your roleplaying is effective," he would pretend to acknowledge that, but come right back with, "But BY THE RULES it's impossible." I.e., because there was no encounter action to do it. (I eventually gave up trying to convince him.)

The reason I post this here, I suppose, is just as a reminder to not assume that everybody has the same baseline assumptions about TTRPGs, EVEN THOSE who seem to have quite a bit of experience.

This is a tangential anecdote at best, but I got into a quarrel with a TikTok GM creator who insisted that it was impossible for an encounter to end with the PCs convincing the enemies to surrender (by talking during combat), because there were no rules to do that.

It blew me away. No matter how many times I gave some variation of, "It's a roleplaying game, and the GM can decide your roleplaying is effective," he would pretend to acknowledge that, but come right back with, "But BY THE RULES it's impossible." I.e., because there was no encounter action to do it. (I eventually gave up trying to convince him.)

The reason I post this here, I suppose, is just as a reminder to not assume that everybody has the same baseline assumptions about TTRPGs, EVEN THOSE who seem to have quite a bit of experience.

Also, there are rules to do that - it's late-game, but it's consistent, it's quick, and it definitely still leaves room for doing so otherwise based on roleplaying.

"But BY THE RULES it's impossible." I.e., because there was no encounter action to do it. (I eventually gave up trying to convince him.)

Because "You don’t need to spend any type of action to speak" (which is the rule)?

Outl wrote:

Ex3: Not just hazards, it seems that all monsters ALWAYS get to decide when to "start" combat. The party has no effect on this, even standard exploration activities such as Scout and Search have no effect. Even in an ambush, the monsters decide how close to get before the ambush is triggered. For instance: Two groups see eachother coming on a long straight road while still 3 miles away. The wizard prepares to fireball as soon as they get in range (500 feet). The enemies can decide to be within 40 feet before initiative is rolled.

Surely this is a GM issue rather than a rules issue. I’m certain that if we encountered this situation with my regular GM, and neither group was trying to get off the road, he would allow the fireball and then have us roll initiative. At worst he’d have a semi-simultaneous spell attack from the opposing party that coincides with the fireball

It's definitely a weak point in the rules though.

I don't think there's any "monsters always decide" rule. Not even sure where that's coming from. (I'm now imagining some monster just sauntering right past the PCs who want to kill him, but can't because he's not dumb enough to "start" combat.

In that specific case, I'd probably say "roll initiative" when the wizard wanted to cast. Just because he starts first, doesn't mean it goes off before they can act. No more than if the groups were facing off and one decided to start the fight. They don't get a free attack out of it. Even against unaware enemies, there's no surprise round anymore.

What I've actually had trouble with is Avoid Notice if you don't actually want to go straight into a fight.

This is a tangential anecdote at best, but I got into a quarrel with a TikTok GM creator who insisted that it was impossible for an encounter to end with the PCs convincing the enemies to surrender (by talking during combat), because there were no rules to do that.

It blew me away. No matter how many times I gave some variation of, "It's a roleplaying game, and the GM can decide your roleplaying is effective," he would pretend to acknowledge that, but come right back with, "But BY THE RULES it's impossible." I.e., because there was no encounter action to do it. (I eventually gave up trying to convince him.)

The reason I post this here, I suppose, is just as a reminder to not assume that everybody has the same baseline assumptions about TTRPGs, EVEN THOSE who seem to have quite a bit of experience.

NAH: You are both right.

Just because there isn't a rule for something doesn't mean that it isn't possible. The rules are more like guidelines.

However, if the GM isn't interested in having combat end through negotiation during the fighting, then there are no rules that the players can fall back on to force the issue - other than a particular feat or something similar that adds that.

This is a tangential anecdote at best, but I got into a quarrel with a TikTok GM creator who insisted that it was impossible for an encounter to end with the PCs convincing the enemies to surrender (by talking during combat), because there were no rules to do that.

It blew me away. No matter how many times I gave some variation of, "It's a roleplaying game, and the GM can decide your roleplaying is effective," he would pretend to acknowledge that, but come right back with, "But BY THE RULES it's impossible." I.e., because there was no encounter action to do it. (I eventually gave up trying to convince him.)

The reason I post this here, I suppose, is just as a reminder to not assume that everybody has the same baseline assumptions about TTRPGs, EVEN THOSE who seem to have quite a bit of experience.

We also don't have rules on how much food you need to eat, or how often you need to use the bathroom, or dental hygiene . Some things are just silly to argue "But BY THE RULES"...

Personally, I'd like to see some examples of the more intricate types of Encounter Mode play given in the blog posts because sometimes the small bulleted ideas do not translate well to others. In those cases an example would provide context and other information that people can use to replicate or extrapolate into additional uses of the Mode.

It could be necessary for newcomers for giving tips about what you can do, but I think all that stuff of "modes" is not necessary at all, just play naturally and sometimes rounds will be required, and that's all. I find trivial when to do the transition, with no need of modes or anything.

Sure, you can play ignoring the rules for Exploration mode and if you're used to rpgs it'll seem natural, but that cuts out a lot of mechanics they put into the game to handle the exploration side. That's kind of still my default for running it, since I don't quite have a good grasp on exploration and it's easier to fall back to how I've played in other games.

I do kind of wish/might look into house ruling that exploration mode happens in rounds, with characters making rolls every time they change exploration activities, just to really reinforce the habit of checking in with everyone to see if they are still doing the same thing and to avoid letting players slip into the habit of just always doing the same thing.

Like when one character starts investigating some unusual feature in a room, are the rest of the party really still trying to sneak around, or scout the room that they have already scouted for 10 minutes, or are just standing in the door way detecting magic over and over again for the full hour?

Maybe, but that also tends to create situations where one player is doing everything active in exploration mode and everyone else is just passively waiting for exploration to turn into encounter mode. Which again isn't inherently bad, especially if who is in the spot light changes a lot, but that can lead to exclusion pretty easily.

Since I start to play PF2 I do rounds of 10 minutes each in exploration mode everytime that someone wants to do something that's requires some exploration time to do.

So every time that I player decides to investigate a room or to refocus or take any action that requires some time I divide it into rounds of 10 minutes where I ask to each player what each one will do in this middle time.

So when a player start to refocus, another one starts to investigate the place, other Treat Wounds of the allies, aid the ally thats investigating and so on. When the 10 minutes finishes depending from the activity that they are doing (if it requires more time) I ask everyone again what each will do and repeat this process until everyone do what they want or something happen in this middle time (like being attacked by an enemy patrol or those who are investigating found or trigger something).

It's not a thing hard to do once the PF2 usually divide the times into 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 8 hours, next daily preparations. So I don't have a problem with it.

The only thing I miss from that Yuri is the movement speed (when you're moving while exploring rather than staying in one room or area). 10 minutes is 100 six second rounds, but I don't think 100x25=2500 feet (a bit less than half a mile) is right when you're trying to be cautious. Maybe half that (1250 feet)? You're still going to cover a whole dungeon level pretty quickly I think. Maybe too quickly.