How to update PFS characters to Year 2 format

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

That’s an untrue statement.

We had access. The cleric and Druid core rules allow them to choose any divine/primal spell to which we had access, and the Character Options blog gave us access.

Both Gods & Magic and APG sanctioning say this:

All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise.

There is a major problem with the way we learn spells now. While I am glad the ruling has been made that there are tutors at the Grand Lodge to learn spells from in the case of my Wizard, the way this rule is stated is causing more problems than it is worth.

First up, from the beginning of OD&D Clerics and Druids(okay, when Druids were made in the Greyhawk supplement, but close enough) divine casters got their spells from their deities. PF2 did not change that in their description of the Divine spell list. "Clerics are the most iconic divine spellcasters, beseeching the gods to grant them their magic." (CRB, pg. 299).

I see the line on page 118 of the CRB where it says, "At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access."

The problem is that very few people interpreted the rule as limiting them to CRB only spells when new spells came out in the Lost Omens line or the APG. Suddenly, we see that this rule was intended from the beginning by the developers? Why? For the past 46 years that has never been the case in this any edition of this game (all D&D editions and Pathfinder editions), but now it is. Clerics and Druids have always gotten their spells from their deities. Now, they are to use the Learn a Spell activity as if they had a spellbook which they do not have.

It's like the gods decided that they're only going to grant spells from this source to their Clerics and Druids, but not this other source unless those Clerics and Druids go pay a tutor to learn how to cast them. Same spell level, just different books they come in.

This is literally the definition of a bad rule that is not going to be followed. We already need the Wizards to write down their spellbooks and they should be keeping track of all Learn a Spell actions. We're on the honor system with that as it is. They too cannot learn a spell from another sourcebook when they level up or start out based on this rule.

Now, Clerics and Druids will have to keep a Divine spellbook (record keeping, not in play) and keep track of how they acquired spells and paid to learn them.

To be quite honest, I never noticed this rule until now. I really do not know of anybody that was following it. This makes things more complicated, not less.

I strongly suggest that OPF alter this rule.

Phase 2: Boon Purchase. As of 31 December 2020, Fame boons can no longer be purchased.

Purchased Fame boons remain valid for use with the limitations in place when they were purchased (only one Capstone boon, for example).

Sorry, but just wanted to clarify what these two statements mean:

So until December 31, I can use the existing Fame on my character to buy a boon, and will be allowed to keep/apply that boon on the character moving forward, correct?

Am I correct in thinking that Fame has become a "use it or lose it" resource? Or is the Phase 4 conversion going to involve transforming existing Fame into AcP somehow?

I would seriously doubt there will be a transfer of Fame into AcP. There is no way for the system to know how many Fame you have since it has not been tracking those purchases all along. It would require a 100% manual input by Paizo or perhaps the RVCs. I cannot imagine they plan to interact with tens of thousands of players, each with multiple characters to grant additional AcP. Its just not reasonable.

Quote:

Phase 2: Boon Purchase. As of 31 December 2020, Fame boons can no longer be purchased.

Quote:

Purchased Fame boons remain valid for use with the limitations in place when they were purchased (only one Capstone boon, for example).

Sorry, but just wanted to clarify what these two statements mean:

So until December 31, I can use the existing Fame on my character to buy a boon, and will be allowed to keep/apply that boon on the character moving forward, correct?

Am I correct in thinking that Fame has become a "use it or lose it" resource? Or is the Phase 4 conversion going to involve transforming existing Fame into AcP somehow?

As far as my understanding goes, you are correct.

For Learn A Spell - the restrictions as written in the CRB are produced by the Pathfinder (second edition) design team and an integral part of the game. OP issuing Learn a Spell is us acting as GM in saying "this is how you get other things in our campaign". Changing the CRB is not OP's balliwick, though adjusting Learn a Spell to accommodate errata is. But until there is a change to the CRB, Learn a Spell confers the ability to choose options outside the CRB.

Thank you KingTreyIII for starting a thread. I will ask the Pathfinder design team to look at it.

Jared Thaler wrote:

Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

That’s an untrue statement.

We had access. The cleric and Druid core rules allow them to choose any divine/primal spell to which we had access, and the Character Options blog gave us access.

Both Gods & Magic and APG sanctioning say this:

Quote:

All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise.

That is one way to read it.

They were allowed to choose any common spell "From the divine spell list in this book or any other spells they gain access to."

The devs have apparently confirmed that "spells they gain access to" was meant to refer to uncommon and rare spells, and that they do not *automatically* gain any spells published in other books. (That also implies that a wizards starting spells can only come from the core rulebook)

Personally I like that just owning a book doesn't immediately upgrade your character to have more spells on their spell list, as that is a pretty substantial "pay to play" incentive.

Now the character has to actually invest some of their resources to get that upgrade.

Jared Thaler wrote:

Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

That’s an untrue statement.

We had access. The cleric and Druid core rules allow them to choose any divine/primal spell to which we had access, and the Character Options blog gave us access.

Both Gods & Magic and APG sanctioning say this:

Quote:

All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise.

Yes. It's a problem with terminology here - apparently the intent was for them to have the CRB spell list as their selection by default, and learn anything outside that. But because "access" has a second meaning, I think many (if not most) players interpreted the clause to be talking about rarity and access. Especially as reading it that way is consistent with expectations for people coming from 1e.

A very careful reading of the CRB can lead to the intended interpretation though, since Learn a Spell also uses the word access. But it's a poor word choice because of the other meaning associated with it, even if it's grammatically correct.

A very careful reading of the CRB can lead to the intended interpretation though, since Learn a Spell also uses the word access. But it's a poor word choice because of the other meaning associated with it, even if it's grammatically correct.

Pirate Rob and a few others have said similar, and this is a solid point worth repeating. As long as Paizo's games use certain keywords as the cornerstones of rules, I hope that their writing and style guides evolve so that writers try to avoid using those words colloquially elsewhere (or maybe create some sort of internal convention that keywords like access are capitalized when used like this).

This is the sort of thing that comes up when writing/editing technical or scientific papers all the time, but I only know of one person on Paizo's staff with experience in that venue. With how many different people contribute to the stories and rules that go into the games that we enjoy, this sort of thing will undoubtedly continue to happen, here and there.

Out of vague curiousity, why does Paizo want to make it less valuable for players to buy the new books? Because that is certainly the effect of this "clarification" (which is really, of course, a change in how just about everybody was interpreting things)

Seems kind of bizarre to me. But maybe the books are selling so well they have to reduce sales somehow? (yes, that was sarcasm)

This strikes me as an offhanded comment by someone who didn't understand the context of the question.

And it /still/ doesn't answer the disparity between CRB classes and APG (and presumably future classes in other books). The Witch and Oracle have no such limitations on having to buy access to Common spells in the APG. It makes no sense that CRB classes would have that limitation on Common spells. They're common for a reason.

Question about the consumable scrolls you get from the Spells school: the guide says scrolls no longer auto-heighten, does this mean that you can (your character level permitting) only get scrolls of, for example, heal at spell level 1 or 3, and no other? If so, can we get some insight into why that change was made?

Edit: Heal also appears to be the only spell that gets mentioned at two different levels to begin with.

Question about the consumable scrolls you get from the Spells school: the guide says scrolls no longer auto-heighten, does this mean that you can (your character level permitting) only get scrolls of, for example, heal at spell level 1 or 3, and no other? If so, can we get some insight into why that change was made?

Edit: Heal also appears to be the only spell that gets mentioned at two different levels to begin with.

That's what it means. A bunch of people expressed their displeasure over this change on the original blog.

Question about the consumable scrolls you get from the Spells school: the guide says scrolls no longer auto-heighten, does this mean that you can (your character level permitting) only get scrolls of, for example, heal at spell level 1 or 3, and no other? If so, can we get some insight into why that change was made?

Edit: Heal also appears to be the only spell that gets mentioned at two different levels to begin with.

Because if you could take Heal 2 as a 3rd level character or Heal 4 as a 7th level character, the game would obviously break...

My faith is crumbling at an accelerated rate.

It's a stupid rule that is causing conflict in the player base. I do not care if the developers put it in there on purpose or not. I strongly suspect they didn't. It is not a good rule. It will not be followed by a significant portion of the player base. It is unenforceable. We can change this rule easily in OPF.

Don't tell me we can't change rules. That is exactly what campaign leadership does.

Michael Hallet wrote:

So characters that were field commissioned in Season 1 do not gain the new lore skill and skill feat options that Season 2 field commissioned agents get?

That seems to be true:

The Blog wrote:

Schools

All characters with points in Spells, Scrolls, or Swords remove the points and any benefits conferred by their old School training. Then choose one of the five current options - Spells, Scrolls, Swords, Generalist, or Field Commission and apply benefits as outlined in the Year 2 Guide. Characters who choose Field Commission do not apply “extra downtime” retroactively.

Characters with points in Field Commission remove points but have no other changes.

Although I really hope it's an error.

This also means former Field Commissioned agents can't choose one of the new Schools.

I missed the mark on that one. So let's try again - The intention was that the new Field Commission would replace the point buy version of Field Commission, so yes, you get the lore skill and skill feat that are listed. It is an equal swap.

The limitation was that if the character was field commissioned before, it remains so now, as going to university after you are already working didn't make sense.

as going to university after you are already working didn't make sense.

Um ... lots of people do that.

Steven Lau wrote:

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Steven Lau wrote:

To clarify, If we bought a boon with Fame are we supposed to buy the boon on the boon section of our Organized Play page?

You don't have to, the purchased boon will be sufficient.

But I can if I want to have them consolidated in one location?

This is something we are working on as part of conversion and will have more information shortly. But we are trying to find a way to consolidate that doesn't overwhelm the available processes.

As Promised... Thanks Tonya!... But no Thanks to Alex!!!! ;)

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Steven Lau wrote:

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Steven Lau wrote:

To clarify, If we bought a boon with Fame are we supposed to buy the boon on the boon section of our Organized Play page?

You don't have to, the purchased boon will be sufficient.

But I can if I want to have them consolidated in one location?

This is something we are working on as part of conversion and will have more information shortly. But we are trying to find a way to consolidate that doesn't overwhelm the available processes.

As Promised... Thanks Tonya!... But no Thanks to Alex!!!! ;)

As promised, boo :P

But seriously thank you to Tonya, Alex, and everyone on the OPF team!

I would seriously doubt there will be a transfer of Fame into AcP. There is no way for the system to know how many Fame you have since it has not been tracking those purchases all along. It would require a 100% manual input by Paizo or perhaps the RVCs. I cannot imagine they plan to interact with tens of thousands of players, each with multiple characters to grant additional AcP. Its just not reasonable.

I agree. But it also isn't clear to me what is being "converted" in the "conversion system" that is discussed for Phase 4.

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

as going to university after you are already working didn't make sense.

Um ... lots of people do that.

I'm almost certain that Tonya used to be in the military. So she REALLY, REALLY, REALLY knows that.

Its things like this that is making Society more and more unappealing. You keep making all of the changes. When you introduced Second Edition, you changed the whole system from first Edition. It was a step. We are what a year into Second Edition and you want to change again.

This is becoming really frustrating, that NOW I HAVE TO CHANGE AGAIN. Seriously get things in order, I am already having a hard time keeping people interested and showing up to play.

Now as a cleric I have to do MORE BOOKKEEPING, this is counter productive and complete nonsense. Now I have to buy the material, then I have to have my character pay gold to learn a spell from my character. This is more bookkeeping that is not needed. I just want to play the game and do little book keeping. If I have to pay for the spells, I have no incentive to go out and buy and new books and support the system. If I can't buy a source and use a spell with my character that is common because I have to learn it. I have no incentive and very little care to do all of the book keeping.

Unacceptable.

It's not really more bookkeeping, you just don't get the spells for free from my reading.

It's not really more bookkeeping, you just don't get the spells for free from my reading.

You have to keep track of which spells you've Learned and which you haven't. Hence more bookkeeping.

Being able to learn spells from tutors is nice... But we need a PFS campaign rule allowing Learn a Spell to be a downtime activity. Or a ruling saying we can learn as many spells as we want (or a specific limited number of them) between scenarios. Otherwise only people who take the feat(s) that make it a downtime activity can take advantage of said tutors.

Learn a Spell is an Exploration Activity that takes *time*, so a PFS PC must have time as well as money to spend learning spells (either during a scenario or during downtime, their only two opportunities to spend time as a resource) and be in Exploration mode.

Its things like this that is making Society more and more unappealing. You keep making all of the changes. When you introduced Second Edition, you changed the whole system from first Edition. It was a step. We are what a year into Second Edition and you want to change again.

You must have hated season 0.

Rysky wrote:

It's not really more bookkeeping, you just don't get the spells for free from my reading.

You have to keep track of which spells you've Learned and which you haven't. Hence more bookkeeping.

Can you not add a little asterick or other mnemonic or is there more involved here that I'm not aware of for leanred and not-learned but having?

Such rulings only get in the way if they are enforced. As no one is watching over you constantly....

The insisting on all characters on having a Home Region is creating an interesting ..... mess RAW. By this I mean the language that we refer to as Common.

If my leshy character is from Katapesh, then *my* Common is Katapesh, then I would *only* be able to speak with people who speak Katapesh or Sylvan. I would not be able to communicate with people who have Taldane as their "Common".

So in effect, we now have a Society of people who have a world full of languages that are all *their* Common.

That's a headache waiting to happen, when people start to assume that language X is Common when in fact it's Language Q.

The insisting on all characters on having a Home Region is creating an interesting ..... mess RAW. By this I mean the language that we refer to as Common.

If my leshy character is from Katapesh, then *my* Common is Katapesh, then I would *only* be able to speak with people who speak Katapesh or Sylvan. I would not be able to communicate with people who have Taldane as their "Common".

So in effect, we now have a Society of people who have a world full of languages that are all *their* Common.

That's a headache waiting to happen, when people start to assume that language X is Common when in fact it's Language Q.

Except the guide defines common as Taldane for all characters, that being the "Lingua Franka" of the inner sea region.

And so the problem you are describing doesn't exist.

(Changing your home region doesn't change "the region where the game takes place.")

Phase 1: Fame Accrual. As of the start of Year 2 (31 July 2020), scenarios/quests/bounties don’t grant fame. Any chronicles issued between 31 July and 15 September that have Fame awards are grandfathered in as accurate.

Phase 2: Boon Purchase. As of 31 December 2020, Fame boons can no longer be purchased.
Phase 3: Game Rewards rollout. Starting 1 October 2020, boons unlocked at the Liked level are available for purchase. We will roll out Admired boons shortly and Revered after that. The delay in rollout allows for OP developers to watch the interaction between the boons and make sure we address any conflicts before adding another level. Goal is to have all boons rolled out by 31 October.
Phase 4: Conversion. We are finishing a conversion system and will announce the particulars within the next few weeks. We hoped to have it done already, but the perfect storm above also caused issues here.

I hope this doesn't turn into a Got'cha.

We've got a use it or lose it scenario. So we'll all spend our Fame now.

Hopefully, the "conversion" isn't "Now you pay the AcP for it (even if a discounted rate)."

Player: "But I didn't want to spend AcP. Can I just give up the boon?"
OP: "No. You have to spend the AcP."

I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.

That said, I do think it's worth Paizo taking a serious look at the way they use language in mechanical sections of the books to avoid issues like this in the future. 'Access' is a mechanical term that defines how the rules work, as such the word should never be used in rules text unless it is being used to that effect, otherwise it leads to endless confusion about what exactly is rules and what isn't. If the rules want to convey the same thing then please use a similar but different word, anything other than something which has an actual rules definition.

I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.

Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

I don't understand why common options from non-core books have an extra hoop to leap through. I guess this will simplify my spell choices going forward. I'll just concentrate on core rulebook options for now.* It does bug me that the rarity system has become more complicated.

Hmm

*Yeah, I know I could spend some time doing the feats and spending the money to Learn the Spell, but it's one more thing that I really don't want to spend my limited bandwidth tracking. The extra complication bugs me, so I'll likely just treat those spells as if they don't exist for the moment.

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?

Since there is a non-zero amount of people who may not be aware of this Blog - for possibly years - I would suggest extending the December 31st deadline to include "...or before they next play the character again, whichever occurs later".

So that someone who played all of Season 1 doesn't take a multi-year break and get told that they just lost all of their Fame.

Being able to learn spells from tutors is nice... But we need a PFS campaign rule allowing Learn a Spell to be a downtime activity. Or a ruling saying we can learn as many spells as we want (or a specific limited number of them) between scenarios. Otherwise only people who take the feat(s) that make it a downtime activity can take advantage of said tutors.

Learn a Spell is an Exploration Activity that takes *time*, so a PFS PC must have time as well as money to spend learning spells (either during a scenario or during downtime, their only two opportunities to spend time as a resource) and be in Exploration mode.

This came up in a discussion among VOs and Paizo folks. Because it is an exploration activity that takes place at the Grand Lodge, there really aren't any hard limits/restrictions at the end of a scenario aside from gold-spending limits (i.e. you can only afford so much at once) and a reasonable amount of time as determined by your GM.

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?

This still doesn't make it sensible to remove Common spells from all other books besides Core.

FireclawDrake wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?

This still doesn't make it sensible to remove Common spells from all other books besides Core.

Limiting them doesn’t make it sensible to have Common spells that require extra effort to access, either. Effectively the designers have removed their ability to publish new spells that are available to everyone, without adding a clarifier like “All Clerics and Druids have access to prepare this spell.” FireclawDrake doesn’t seem to be saying that all of those spells should be Uncommon, but rather that making spells Uncommon is the tool that the game provides, and that makes much more sense in-world than what book the option appears in out of game.

I will endeavour to be precise here but I may fail:

Clerics and Druids can prepare spells from the common in the CRB and from spells to which they have access.

Common is the rarity level which is to indicate that all players have access to this. That is the purpose of the Common rarity. (footnote that GMs can adjudicate rarity/sources as they see fit).

Therefore, without the GM saying otherwise, Clerics and Druids have access to Common spells and prepare them, which includes Common spells in the APG. These are the actual rules of 2e (at time of writing).

"Without the GM saying otherwise" is a bit more fraught in the context of Organized Play, but luckily we have a solution. Standard, Limited, and Restricted availability as set forth by the OP team.

Clerics and Druids have access to Common spells of Standard availability, like the ones in the APG. They do not need to use Learn A Spell to gain access to them, since they are Common and of Standard availability.

If the OP team had intended for Druids and Cleric to have to Learn A Spell in order to gain access, those Common spells should be of Limited availability for Clerics and Druids, with the addendum that Tutors at the Grand Lodge can help them use Learn A Spell to gain access to them.

My wizard is so happy with the ruling on spells for prepared casters!

What ruling?

FireclawDrake wrote:

Richard Lowe wrote:

I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.

Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?

It does sound like the entire purpose of the rarity system. I guess it was so poorly executed even Paizo staff can't stand it.

This has nothing to do with the rarity system.

Clerics and Druids don’t have an advantage over casters now is all.

I think it would be interesting to hear how many non-org play campaigns are following this interpretation of the spell access. It’s a small pool to be sure, but none of the GMs I have spoken to so far are doing so and most were as surprised as we are of this interpretation.

Not a fan of this new rule. Cleric’s obtain their spells from their God and should have access to all common spells as long as the book is approved for society.

Should Clerics get a Prayer Book at character generation now to store their prayers, as this is not the case now.

I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work. Druids and clerics get to choose from to a much wider pool of spells each day for free. But they don't get to chose from *all* the spells for free.

That doesn't sound like a very productive way to promote new material to me?

But maybe it's the lack of coffee and dread of having to go be essential yet again making me unable to keep up with all the reinventions of the wheel talking...