How to update PFS characters to Year 2 format

...So far, even the people on these threads defending this "clarification" haven't stated (at least, if they did I missed it) that THEY always thought the rules to be as currently "Clarified". That this new interpretation is the only reasonable way to have always interpreted the rules.

Let me stand up and say I ALWAYS read the rule this way.*

... We have the Society rules...

One of which is we play by the Rules as Written...

We have a written out list of what we have access to...

As has been pointed out... Learn a Spell grants Access... according to the Character Options blog, we have Access to all* the common spells...

*(there are a couple specific spells with modified access)

According to the Guide we have access, why do we need to also gain access a second time?

Learn a Spell grants Access

Other way around.

You need access before you can Learn a Spell.

Tempest_Knight wrote:

Learn a Spell grants Access

Other way around.

You need access before you can Learn a Spell.

Just weighing in as someone who is very confused by all this.

But as I understand it, Learn a Spell says "You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll."

If you have "access" to a spell, then Learn a Spell doesn't seem to add anything to that.

I agree. That is annoying verbiage. And misleading. Because you can't simply Learn a Spell that's Uncommon or Rare. You need Access, first.

So, the sentence from the 10/1 blog that kicked all of this off . . .

"Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge."

. . . would seem to make no sense as I was under the impression that one always has access to "common" spells.

If all Learn a Spell does is grant "access," then why would one need to use it to "learn any common spells they have access to.?"

I know I've come late to this, and I'm not trying to (re)start any fireworks, but this genuinely makes no sense to me.

So, the sentence from the 10/1 blog that kicked all of this off . . .

"Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge."

. . . would seem to make no sense as I was under the impression that one always has access to "common" spells.

If all Learn a Spell does is grant "access," then why would one need to use it to "learn any common spells they have access to.?"

I know I've come late to this, and I'm not trying to (re)start any fireworks, but this genuinely makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense to many of us, that's about the gist of it. That, and if it's really supposed to work that way they sure took their time to tell us in a very roundabout way (through PFS), it doesn't seem to apply to APG classes, and it reeks of the FAQratta they'd pull in 1e (like the arrow thing that took 8-9 years to "clarify") where they'd call errata a FAQ which I can only assume is because they couldn't word it to fit in the printed page for the next round of printing.

I was under the impression that one always has access to "common" spells.

We all shared that assumption.

What this Blog does is add a 4th category of Access beyond the standard Common/Uncommon/Rare: Common spells from outside of the Core Rulebook.

It means that classes like Cleric and Druid must use the Learn a Spell activity for spells in the APG.

There's even an argument to be made that Clerics who already have Access to certain spells from the APG via their Domains or Deity still need to spend money Learning them.

Hence the mess.

Okay, so take the non standard use of access out.

Your list of available spells to chose from is all of the common spells in the core rulebook. You can use the Learn a Spell Activity to add a spell to the list of available spells. If you have a spellbook, this also adds the spell to your spellbook.

This would also clear up the domain / deity spell ambiguity, as those are not spells you choose. They are spells you get given.

Remember that when a permitted option gives you something, you are generally presumed to have the ability to make use of it.

Can we stop focusing on all the ways the wording could be misread to not work, and focus on:

1. what reading makes it work.
2. whether there is a better wording that makes it work better.

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Tempest_Knight wrote:

Learn a Spell grants Access

Other way around.

You need access before you can Learn a Spell.

... according to the Rules as Written, You don't have access to Uncommon or Rare spells... if you find scrolls for Uncommon or Rare spells, you still don't have Access to the Spells...

You must Learn a Spell to gain access.

If you have Access you don't need to Learn a Spell

You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll. If you can cast spells of multiple traditions, you can Learn a Spell of any of those traditions, but you must use the corresponding skill to do so. For example, if you were a cleric with the bard multiclass archetype, you couldn’t use Religion to add an occult spell to your bardic spell repertoire.

~

Okay, so take the non standard use of access out.

Your list of available spells to chose from is all of the common spells in the core rulebook. You can use the Learn a Spell Activity to add a spell to the list of available spells. If you have a spellbook, this also adds the spell to your spellbook.

I agree that this is the new wording for Clerics and Druids.

I am of the opinion that this change should be added to the Character Options blog to make it clear to all players as it conflicts with the game term Access and the standard Access rules in the Character Options blog.

you can't simply Learn a Spell that's Uncommon or Rare. You need Access, first.

Following that logic, according to this Blog, Druids and Clerics have Access to the Common spells from the APG, because they're Common, and since they have Access, they can now pay to Learn a Spell.

*feels the migraine he hasn’t felt since ten foot pits*

Oh, trust.

The issue is the word "access" has a usage in the English language, we also have a very specific meaning within the scope of the game rules. Tose two usage do not always mean the same thing, yet they are both used to describe the condition.

If you have Access you don't need to Learn a Spell

That's not exactly true. We have standard access to the APG as defined in the character options. That means if something is common, you should have immediate access to it. However, if you are a cleric you have to use Learn a Spell to select a common spell from the APG. That is not how players understand Access from the CRB.

Following that logic, according to this Blog, Druids and Clerics have Access to the Common spells from the APG, because they're Common, and since they have Access, they can now pay to Learn a Spell.

Until this blog, you didn't need to Learn a Spell to gain access to spells you already had access to according to the Character Options blog.

Now, given the new rule in this blog, you both do and do not have access to the common spells from non-CRB sources...

You have access to Learn a Spell to gain access to the spells...

As opposed to the original you had access to use the spells, and only needed to Learn a Spell to gain access to non-common spells...

The issue is the word "access" has a usage in the English language, we also have a very specific meaning within the scope of the game rules. Tose two usage do not always mean the same thing, yet they are both used to describe the condition.

Quote:

If you have Access you don't need to Learn a Spell

That's not exactly true. We have standard access to the APG as defined in the character options. That means if something is common, you should have immediate access to it. However, if you are a cleric you have to use Learn a Spell to select a common spell from the APG. That is not how players understand Access from the CRB.

That is a change from the Rules as Written, we now have a conflict where none existed before.

This is why I for one would like this change spelled out in the Character Options blog so that it is all in one easy to reference area.

That is a change from the Rules as Written, we now have a conflict where none existed before.

Apparently, that is not quite accurate. The vast majority of users, at least within the Org Play community. The designers always intended for it to work this way, its just that we did not make that leap of understanding and have been doing it "wrong" for the past year+. Therefore many are considering the clarification to be more akin to errata.

Kinda like when a business has a rule that they don't enforce and the exception becomes the rule. Then at some point they try to enforce the original rule and no one is following it because of "past business practices" and it creates problems for both parties.

Tonya has already clarified the designer's intent. This is really just a matter of significant miscommunication between the designers and players. However, many dislike the RAW and want it changed or are ignoring it.

Stephen Meadows Jr wrote:

That is a change from the Rules as Written, we now have a conflict where none existed before.

Apparently, that is not quite accurate. The vast majority of users, at least within the Org Play community. The designers always intended for it to work this way, its just that we did not make that leap of understanding and have been doing it "wrong" for the past year+. Therefore many are considering the clarification to be more akin to errata.

Kinda like when a business has a rule that they don't enforce and the exception becomes the rule. Then at some point they try to enforce the original rule and no one is following it because of "past business practices" and it creates problems for both parties.

Tonya has already clarified the designer's intent. This is really just a matter of significant miscommunication between the designers and players. However, many dislike the RAW and want it changed or are ignoring it.

The Character Options blog determines what a player has Access to, and from what books. It also, occasionally, modifies the default RAW Access, and makes other tweaks.

The Cleric and Druid both state "... or from other [Tradition] spells to which you gain access."

The RAW was clear... Now we have a new rule... One not spelled out in any of the three places new players are likely to look... (Core Rulebook; the Guide; the Character Options blog)

I'm just asking that this change be added to the Character Options blog... and potentially the character creation section of the guide (not as necessary if it is in the Character Options blog, but it would be nice)

~

And because I know it will come up...

common (trait) Anything that doesn’t list another rarity trait (uncommon, rare, or unique) automatically has the common trait. This rarity indicates that an ability, item, or spell is available to all players who meet the prerequisites for it.

The designers always intended for it to work this way

I have yet to find where a member of the design team explicitly stated that this was their intent, by the way. If you know something that I don't then by all means share.