How to update PFS characters to Year 2 format

Does the access to Learn a Spell also apply to spontaneous spellcasters with appropriate feats? I'm thinking of a Sorcerer with Arcane Evolution as one example.

To clarify, If we bought a boon with Fame are we supposed to buy the boon on the boon section of our Organized Play page?

Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

To clarify, If we bought a boon with Fame are we supposed to buy the boon on the boon section of our Organized Play page?

You don't have to, the purchased boon will be sufficient.

My wizard is so happy with the ruling on spells for prepared casters!

Steven Lau wrote:

To clarify, If we bought a boon with Fame are we supposed to buy the boon on the boon section of our Organized Play page?

You don't have to, the purchased boon will be sufficient.

But I can if I want to have them consolidated in one location?

I seem to be unable to purchase the Fall of Plaguestone boons on my character who has the chronicle sheet for said adventure, when you click purchase it doesn't add it to the purchased list at the bottom

Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

It's a subtle few words added to Clerics and Druids in the Core Rulebook. I missed it myself when I first started playing 2nd edition.

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

Emphasis mine (and Druids have almost identical text in their class entry). Since Wizards and Witches have to pay gold to learn spells beyond what they start with, this still leaves Clerics and Druids better-off, since they automatically know all common spells from the CRB, but to get access to the ones in other books, they're now a bit closer to the rest of the prepared casters in the game, financially.

Also,

If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it’s added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.

Emphasis mine. So you only have to do the activity once, and then the spell is permanently on your list! :)

KingTreyIII wrote:

Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

It's a subtle few words added to Clerics and Druids in the Core Rulebook. I missed it myself when I first started playing 2nd edition.

Divine Spellcasting wrote:

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

Emphasis mine. Since Wizards and Witches have to pay gold to learn spells beyond what they start with, this still leaves Clerics and Druids better-off, since they automatically know all common spells from the CRB, but to get access to the ones in other books, they're now a bit closer to the rest of the prepared casters in the game, financially.

I take a slightly different view. Bolded for emphasis. You'd have access to the spells in the APG because their rarity is Common. Nothing changes in this regard, though the sentence can certainly be read in a more restrictive way.

I seem to be unable to purchase the Fall of Plaguestone boons on my character who has the chronicle sheet for said adventure, when you click purchase it doesn't add it to the purchased list at the bottom

Is it GM or player credit? As I mentioned in the Monthly Update, GM credit has a known bug where it doesn't qualify (tech is fixing). If it's player credit, that's weirder.

J03_M4M4 wrote:

I seem to be unable to purchase the Fall of Plaguestone boons on my character who has the chronicle sheet for said adventure, when you click purchase it doesn't add it to the purchased list at the bottom

Is it GM or player credit? As I mentioned in the Monthly Update, GM credit has a known bug where it doesn't qualify (tech is fixing). If it's player credit, that's weirder.

Its GM credit, missed that in the update, will keep an eye out. Thanks :)

Mike Bramnik wrote:

KingTreyIII wrote:

Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

It's a subtle few words added to Clerics and Druids in the Core Rulebook. I missed it myself when I first started playing 2nd edition.

Divine Spellcasting wrote:

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

Emphasis mine. Since Wizards and Witches have to pay gold to learn spells beyond what they start with, this still leaves Clerics and Druids better-off, since they automatically know all common spells from the CRB, but to get access to the ones in other books, they're now a bit closer to the rest of the prepared casters in the game, financially.

I take a slightly different view. Bolded for emphasis. You'd have access to the spells in the APG because their rarity is Common. Nothing changes in this regard, though the sentence can certainly be read in a more restrictive way.

In that circumstance, what was the need of the clarification in the blog. If it's common, then you have access to it, but the Learn a Spell clarification seems to disagree with that.

EDIT: Okay, the clarification actually helps witches and wizards because they can get new spells for relatively cheap, but my whole thing still stand with regard to clerics/druids.

So characters that were field commissioned in Season 1 do not gain the new lore skill and skill feat options that Season 2 field commissioned agents get?

Any chance this change to learning spells can apply to Uncommon ones you accessed through Esoteric Spellcaster?

So characters that were field commissioned in Season 1 do not gain the new lore skill and skill feat options that Season 2 field commissioned agents get?

That seems to be true:

Schools

All characters with points in Spells, Scrolls, or Swords remove the points and any benefits conferred by their old School training. Then choose one of the five current options - Spells, Scrolls, Swords, Generalist, or Field Commission and apply benefits as outlined in the Year 2 Guide. Characters who choose Field Commission do not apply “extra downtime” retroactively.

Characters with points in Field Commission remove points but have no other changes.

Although I really hope it's an error.

This also means former Field Commissioned agents can't choose one of the new Schools.

I will read it, but may need take time tomorrow to re-read it to comprehend.

I need to see the text for the new faction rewards. I want to know exactly what I'm buying.

If it is shown somewhere, please let me know. I cannot find it.

Any chance we can rebuild some options as a result of the school change? It's not only a loss of skills, but also I built a concept around it.

Constructive Criticism from the last announcement:

1.) Please clarify whether we can have more than one hireling as they are an 'ally boon' that doesn't explicitly place a pawn. Please tell me you listened to the community in the last post and will let us slot more than one hireling.

2.) How can I convert the Envoy Alliance Eager Protege accumulated boon XP? I'd like to get my free 2nd level or 3rd level PC start.

3.) Will we be getting double the ACP or will ACP costs be discounted for things like new ancestries since ACP now has to cover the cost of buying basic boons that normally would have been purchased on fame/prestige?

4.) What are my rebuild options for any character your changes have significantly impacted?

Constructive Criticism from the last announcement:

1.) Please clarify whether we can have more than one hireling as they are an 'ally boon' that doesn't explicitly place a pawn. Please tell me you listened to the community in the last post and will let us slot more than one hireling.

2.) How can I convert the Envoy Alliance Eager Protege accumulated boon XP? I'd like to get my free 2nd level or 3rd level PC start.

3.) Will we be getting double the ACP or will ACP costs be discounted for things like new ancestries since ACP now has to cover the cost of buying basic boons that normally would have been purchased on fame/prestige?

4.) What are my rebuild options for any character your changes have significantly impacted?

The ACP economy definitely sounds like something that should be looked at, since we're effectively getting half as many right now.

Quote:

Characters with points in Field Commission remove points but have no other changes.

Although I really hope it's an error.

This also means former Field Commissioned agents can't choose one of the new Schools.

I was wondering about that too as it seemed more reasonable for at least one of my Field Agents to take the Generalist School instead. Still, I do have the Character Rebuild Boon that were issued a while back so I can use that if I have to.

What are my rebuild options for any character your changes have significantly impacted?

Echoing this.

I am sure I am not alone, when I utilized the free Rebuild with Hirelings in mind, to give feats and skill training to my Hirelings that I initially had on my Character.

Now that Hirelings are restricted, I either need that Fame refunded (at the very, very least) so I can spend AcP to Rebuild my character again, or, preferably, I would like to just rebuild my character back to the way they were before my first Rebuild.

If the intent of the wording for Cleric/Druid spellcasting was that they only could prepare spells from the CRB without using Learn a Spell, this needs to be explicitly stated.

The word "access" has a specific rules meaning tied to it, so it's easy to read that sentence as referring specifically to the meaning of access everywhere else (that it's an available option for the campaign via rarity or otherwise).

It does appear that Learn a Spell uses it too - I can certainly see where your intent was on this... but it is not remotely clear without someone pointing it out and then poring over the rulebook to connect passages.

I strongly suggest errata for the CRB to use "learn from other sources" instead and explicit clarification in the blog. I would put money that north of 3/4 of players were reading that as Clerics not needing Learn a Spell, since we've had non CRB divine spells sanctioned for ages.

Rebuild?

No soup rebuild for you!

So if a cleric has to use Learn a Spell for common Divine (or whatever) spells that happen to appear in other books, does that mean a fighter has to take Weapon Proficiency if they want to use a common weapon from a new book? When a sorcerer gains new spells for increasing level, can they select a common spell from an alternate source even if it’s the same tradition as the cleric? If so, why is one class “punished” and the other not? Doesn’t make sense. Why would the access rules apply differently depending on your class?

Because clerics and druids can change spells every day. Fighters and sorcerers can't change their options at no cost.

Because clerics and druids can change spells every day. Fighters and sorcerers can't change their options at no cost.

It should be noted that Wizards have the same "or gain access to from other books" clause in the wording for their initial spellbook entries. It makes zero sense if they have to Learn a Spell during character creation.

Sorcerers have the same clause for their repertoire, as do Bards. Are they also required to Learn a Spell?

Oracles do NOT have that clause, do they not have to pay when Bards and Sorcerers do?

Edit: And for extra fun? Wizard Dedication does not have that clause. This interpretation would mean that RAW, a level 1 wizard cannot start play with APG cantrips, but that a Fighter who multiclasses Wizard can start with them for free.

So if a cleric has to use Learn a Spell for common Divine (or whatever) spells that happen to appear in other books, does that mean a fighter has to take Weapon Proficiency if they want to use a common weapon from a new book? When a sorcerer gains new spells for increasing level, can they select a common spell from an alternate source even if it’s the same tradition as the cleric? If so, why is one class “punished” and the other not? Doesn’t make sense. Why would the access rules apply differently depending on your class?

The fighter still has to buy the weapon...

It should be noted that Wizards have the same "or gain access to from other books" clause in the wording for their initial spellbook entries. It makes zero sense if they have to Learn a Spell during character creation.

But again, they have to spend a limited resource to have the spell available to prepare. Clerics and Druids do not.

So if a cleric has to use Learn a Spell for common Divine (or whatever) spells that happen to appear in other books, does that mean a fighter has to take Weapon Proficiency if they want to use a common weapon from a new book? When a sorcerer gains new spells for increasing level, can they select a common spell from an alternate source even if it’s the same tradition as the cleric? If so, why is one class “punished” and the other not? Doesn’t make sense. Why would the access rules apply differently depending on your class?

It goes further than this. The same text that would prevent druids and clerics from preparing APG spells also exists in Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers.

This means that Wizards cannot take APG spells at creation, OR upon level up. The only way to add them is to Learn A Spell.

Similarly, Bards and Sorcerers CANNOT add any APG spells to their repertoires without first using Learn a Spell for those spells.

There's a bunch of related unanswered issues/questions to the spell learning...

1: How does this effect spontaneous casters?

2: APG casters do not have text limiting them to CRB spells

3: Wizard/sorcerer/bard dedications do not contain CRB limiting text while cleric/druid do.

4: Basic/expert/master multiclass archetype feats do not appear to contain the CRB limiting text either.

This really feels like an issue that needs some errata or at least clarification rather than a weird bit of PFS ruling that appears to be built on some other bit of rules we don't know about.

Quote:

Rebuild?

No soup rebuild for you!

I realize this has been Paizo's stance before, but it continues to confuse me.

In virtually every other industry, whether it be software, retail, auto manufacturing, airline bookings... Like, literally everything... When the company breaks something, they're obligated to fix it, at zero cost to their customers.

Why is this even a discussion here?

So wait, if my cleric wants to pick any spell from the APG I have to use the Learn A Spell activity?

So wait, if my cleric wants to pick any spell from the APG I have to use the Learn A Spell activity?

Under the current understanding of "access" to spells, all CRB classes must use Learn A Spell to be able to use APG spells at all, since they all have the same text as the clerics.

Michael Hallet wrote:

So characters that were field commissioned in Season 1 do not gain the new lore skill and skill feat options that Season 2 field commissioned agents get?

That seems to be true:

The Blog wrote:

Schools

All characters with points in Spells, Scrolls, or Swords remove the points and any benefits conferred by their old School training. Then choose one of the five current options - Spells, Scrolls, Swords, Generalist, or Field Commission and apply benefits as outlined in the Year 2 Guide. Characters who choose Field Commission do not apply “extra downtime” retroactively.

Characters with points in Field Commission remove points but have no other changes.

Although I really hope it's an error.

This also means former Field Commissioned agents can't choose one of the new Schools.

I am also hoping we'll see clarification for this point from on high.

I'm also having some difficulty with this sudden new requirement to learn spells. We already have rarity/access rules, standard/limited/restricted rules, but now there's also a stealth difference between common spells from one book and common spells from other books?

Looking back at PF1, in the CRB it actually has similar language:

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn

from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10.

Sometimes someone would ask if that meant clerics could only cast spells from the CRB, to which the response would usually range from

The current World Traveller boon is restricted to the nations in the Lost Omens World Guide (I.e. not Tian).

Is this also true with the character’s Home Region?

Also is the cost for Secondary Initiation correct. 2 seems very low compared to similar boons.

Also Inherited Wayfinder which was purchasable with Achievement Points seems to have been replaced by Wayfinder which requires Game Rewards which are showing as 0. If I purchased the Inherited Wayfinder with Achievement Points when it was available, do I loose it and need to buy it with Game Rewards when I have some?

Clarification?

Is the Multilingual feat still give access to uncommon languages?

TwilightKnight wrote:

Quote:

Rebuild?

No soup rebuild for you!

I realize this has been Paizo's stance before, but it continues to confuse me.

In virtually every other industry, whether it be software, retail, auto manufacturing, airline bookings... Like, literally everything... When the company breaks something, they're obligated to fix it, at zero cost to their customers.

Why is this even a discussion here?

1. In part, because I don't know if Paizo would agree they're breaking anything.

2. In part, because I don't know if I'd agree that other companies are obligated to fix things.

Their propensity to fix things mostly depends on how they perceive it will impact future business. The terms of service on freemail services are constantly changing (generally for the worse); unfortunately, because the users don't pay (I don't use the word "customers" for that reason - the advertisers are their "customers," the users are the product), they frequently and very flippantly renege on their old agreements. Subscription-based services (ISPs, Netflix, etc.) are more favorable, but only by so much (mostly depending on their level of competition). The old brick-and-mortar retailers are the best at customer service, because they tend to build relationships with their customers (whom they have to physically see). They're also getting murdered by their faceless, impersonal, literally-shifty online counterparts, so it's uphill to argue against economics.

3. In part, and this is purely my opinion, the public opinion on different priorities is too skewed towards getting stuff. I think things that get handed out have to be super scrutinized because people make the "if X gets it, why doesn't Y?" argument too often. I bet if Paizo had used this School system last year, nobody would have complained about how bad it was, because everyone would have been like, "oh, we get stuff beyond what the CRB said we'd get - cool!" But now that we're used to getting 10 Treasure Bundles plus Soothe scrolls plus Level-0 Earn Income, any revision downward faces incredible resistance. "We only get 180% of Wealth by Level and not 190%? YYYYYEEEEAAAAARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!"

---

In the end, I think a limited Rebuild is a zero-cost way of solving problem, and I'd advocate it, but I completely and totally understand why there's a debate about it.

Paizo wanting to move Chronicle Boons from pieces of paper they can never track down to an online marketplace that they can revise and change at will? I get it. Don't 100% agree, but I get it.

Any chance we can rebuild some options as a result of the school change? It's not only a loss of skills, but also I built a concept around it.

How did you lose skills from this? None of the schools lost options, there's just effectively two more schools to pick from.

Hi!
I have translated this post into german language. Link below.

Hallo!
Ich habe diesen Post ins Deutsche übersetzt. Der link dazu ist:

http://pfs2.talonzorch.de/?p=393

So... to clarify: if I have a character who is a member of the Swords but wants to get a healing potion for his consumable, my only option for doing so is to "forget" to pick something?

Does it really make sense to have that incentive built into the game?

Is there any chance of a rethink on the home region/ethnicity restrictions? I was thinking about trying out 2e GMing soon, but I am wavering at the thought of having to tell an eager new player that they can't have a character who is the equivalent of Native American or who is from the equivalent of China.

I mean, yes, if someone wanted to have a character who originally hailed from Arcadia in 1e, then they didn't have a lot of material to work with, and they couldn't officially list an Arcadian language on their character sheet, but the concept wasn't outright banned as far as I can tell.

The concept of a divine cast having to learn a spell is foreign to me. Divine spells are granted by a "higher" entity as a reward for praying to them. Why does the entity suddenly tell their followers the they have to go to a class to learn a spell?

Please reconsider this. It Flys in the face of decades of game play.

So... to clarify: if I have a character who is a member of the Swords but wants to get a healing potion for his consumable, my only option for doing so is to "forget" to pick something?

Does it really make sense to have that incentive built into the game?

Why would you describe it as "forgetting"? It's just another option. Your school had items, and there's a baseline of standard items everyone can choose. You get to pick from one or the other.

I'm also having some difficulty with this sudden new requirement to learn spells. We already have rarity/access rules, standard/limited/restricted rules, but now there's also a stealth difference between common spells from one book and common spells from other books?

Looking back at PF1, in the CRB it actually has similar language:

PF1 CRB p. 39 wrote:

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn

from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10.

Sometimes someone would ask if that meant clerics could only cast spells from the CRB, to which the response would usually range from

- "that's because the CRB was the first book, they couldn't really point to other books"
- "it's not meant to be exclusive, it's just a helpful pointer to where in the book you can find them"
- "you're reading too much into that"
- "you're out of your mind"
- "playing by the rules doesn't mean trying to find the most out there RAW interpretation that results in an unplayable game"

I gotta second this, we already have 2 systems to restrict access to things, why do we need a third?

Moving the Learn a Spell implication discussion to its own thread to keep things organized and all in one place.

Shisumo wrote:

So... to clarify: if I have a character who is a member of the Swords but wants to get a healing potion for his consumable, my only option for doing so is to "forget" to pick something?

Does it really make sense to have that incentive built into the game?

Why would you describe it as "forgetting"? It's just another option. Your school had items, and there's a baseline of standard items everyone can choose. You get to pick from one or the other.

I mean, that would absolutely make sense, but it's not actually what the Guide says:

In a Pathfinder Society Scenario, your character also receives gifts from their friends and connections before leaving on missions. At this point, you can select your free consumable item or items from the list below. You can choose a consumable from a level lower than yours if you wish.

If not used by the end of the adventure, the item is returned to the character’s contacts. If you neglect to choose an item, you receive the default choice of a healing potion of the appropriate level.

The bolded part is the only indication of how one might access the default.

I realize this is probably not how it's meant to be, but as it stands I can't actually read it any other way. I would advise a wording tweak to make the intent more clear, if indeed the idea is that you can always take the healing potion option if you want it.

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Steven Lau wrote:

To clarify, If we bought a boon with Fame are we supposed to buy the boon on the boon section of our Organized Play page?

You don't have to, the purchased boon will be sufficient.

But I can if I want to have them consolidated in one location?

This is something we are working on as part of conversion and will have more information shortly. But we are trying to find a way to consolidate that doesn't overwhelm the available processes.

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o