I'm really excited to see that Archon is taking over (thought I'm a bit confused, since I thought Archon was already the ones actually doing the minis - Ninja Division being prone to outsourcing rather than actual producing)

Generally speaking, in the hobby gaming industry, there are publishers, and there are manufacturers. For example, Paizo is the publisher for our RPG products—we are responsible for every aspect of our products except for actually printing them; we contract book printers to manufacture the printed books under our direction.

Under the previous license, Ninja Division was the publisher for the Masterclass line—they were responsible for deciding what to make, how to make it, how to price it, where to sell it, and so on (with our input and approval as the licensor). They created the sculpts and then contracted Archon and other manufacturers to actually produce them. (Archon did not produce the prepainted minis, and I believe they produced only some of the unpainted resins.)

Under the new license, Archon is the publisher, and they are now responsible for making all of the decisions Ninja Division made before. But because they are also a manufacturer, they can produce finished product entirely by themselves.

Okay.

Respectfully, can someone please break out the finger puppets and graphs for me? I feel like I must be missing something here.

Archon is making the minis now (they always were?) Got that.
Backers in the EU are being fulfilled by Archon, got that.
Backers everywhere else are being fulfilled by ND. ....?

...How is it anyone (not in the EU) will be receiving anything?

Isn't the whole fundamental problem here is that ND has no money?

Assuming Archon pays to ship the products to Idaho, (it is my impression) ND still has no money to ship product out with.

Can someone clear this up for me?

The can got kicked down the road a while, unless you live in the EU

Okay.

Respectfully, can someone please break out the finger puppets and graphs for me? I feel like I must be missing something here.

Archon is making the minis now (they always were?) Got that.
Backers in the EU are being fulfilled by Archon, got that.
Backers everywhere else are being fulfilled by ND. ....?

...How is it anyone (not in the EU) will be receiving anything?

Isn't the whole fundamental problem here is that ND has no money?

Assuming Archon pays to ship the products to Idaho, (it is my impression) ND still has no money to ship product out with.

Can someone clear this up for me?

It might have to do with taxes, tariffs and additional handling fees. If the product gets sent from the EU directly from Archon to the customer every customer might have to pay extra for taxes, tariffs and handling over the consumer price. By having (semi-finished) product shipped to a company inside the US, the taxes and tariffs are over the manufacturer price and there is only a single customs handling fee.

Assuming Archon pays to ship the products to Idaho, (it is my impression) ND still has no money to ship product out with.

Can someone clear this up for me?

It probably involves lawyers. I'd guess that if the owners of Ninja Division don't want a court battle they can't win, they will have to find the money. They already collected the shipping fees from backers. Yes, we all know they blew the money on... something. Hopefully they will find themselves up against some fairly high level duel class Lawyer/Assassins if they don't find a way to ship the minis they're responsible for. I'll be shocked if they manage to pull it off. Let's all hope they manage it. I still want some space goblins and aliens with antennas on their heads.

Frankly, as an Australian, for duties etc it doesn't matter where the figures come from. However, if what I understand is correct, I will order some Starfinder minis from the Archon Website every couple of months and get my fulfilment that way. Might be more expensive overall, but I don't have any stress about it being fulfilled (hopefully)

Hopeful that this works out. It would be nice to get these minis. Hopefully that will inspire me to play Starfinder which has had a bad taste in my mouth after the ND fiasco.

I have to wonder if there's a way to model how much the ND kickstarter hurt the brand?

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence on the boards, but that's actually a very small sample size. Each DM/GM that didn't take it up possibly influenced their group of 4-8 players to not pick it up as well, but that's almost impossible to quantify.

Perhaps if you tracked sales figures from before the kickstarter, through the campaign, and then afterwards. You could note sales rates in a given period after key revelations and compare them to the original pathfinder or the new 2e data.

I have to wonder if there's a way to model how much the ND kickstarter hurt the brand?

Not much I would guess since it is number 2 for sales for spring 2019.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/43732/top-5-roleplaying-games-spring -2019

I'm curious, how is this going to work financially for Archon? How do they make money from this?

Ninja Division has no money so can't be contributing anything to pay Archon for all new plastic minis for this can they?

Archon supposedly were never paid for the original resin figures, threatened to destroy the remaining figures, which from a post above may have been misleading as to how many remaining there really were, so they are already in the hole financially.

I would think any and all production costs, molding costs, material cost, design cost, shipping costs etc. for kickstarter backers will be at a loss.

I see they are making a few new figures over and above the Kickstarter ones and will sell those retail, as well as overproducing the kickstarter figures for retail, which now will compete against the prepainted lines.

Are they anticipating making enough off retail sales to cover the expense of the minis for backers as well as the money they've already lost?

What happens if they can't cover that much expense and lost money? Do they just stop half way through?

Also, it was mentioned Archon will be designing the figures, will this mean changes to already sculpted figures, or strictly for the new figures?

Outside of the above concerns, I really, really hope this works and I am grateful to Paizo for making the effort on backers behalf to recover from Ninja's dastardly, though not unexpected, sneak attack.

You would have been within your rights legally to go with a "Sorry, not our problem, talk to Ninja".

Also, it was mentioned Archon will be designing the figures, will this mean changes to already sculpted figures, or strictly for the new figures?

For the Kickstarter figures, they're starting with Ninja Division's work. Switching from plastic to resin may necessitate some changes in some sculpts, but I wouldn't expect radical changes.

(Regarding your other questions, it would be inappropriate for me to discuss another company's finances. All I can say is that if they didn't think the numbers made sense, they wouldn't have done the deal.)

(...All I can say is that if they didn't think the numbers made sense, they wouldn't have done the deal.)

I'm not saying things won't work out just fine--and I really hope they do for everyone's sake--but let's be real here, a lot of companies do things without fully analyzing, fully understanding, or fully intending to commit to the plan. That same line of thought was applied ND, and we know how that story worked out.

Reading comments about Archon on this makes me think of the Doom that came to Atlantic City; the original publisher took the money and ran (basically) but another company stepped up, picked up the game and sent it to the kickstarters at no cost to those of us who kickstarted it. The only thing that Cryptozoic Entertainment got from fulfilling the kickstarter was a lot of people thinking highly of Cryptozoic Entertainment. Archon may simply be in the same state here.

adding: I have no horse in this race, but I do like seeing people happy.

Vic Wertz wrote:

(...All I can say is that if they didn't think the numbers made sense, they wouldn't have done the deal.)

I'm not saying things won't work out just fine--and I really hope they do for everyone's sake--but let's be real here, a lot of companies do things without fully analyzing, fully understanding, or fully intending to commit to the plan. That same line of thought was applied ND, and we know how that story worked out.

"Inattention to detail" is not a description that I would use to describe the people that I have met from Archon. I understand what you are saying, but based only on my personal interactions with the people at Archon I don't think it applies in this case.

I got to see a bunch of their stuff for Wolfenstein The Board Game at GenCon, and it looks pretty amazing. If the Starfinder minis come out looking anywhere near as good, I think you'll all be very happy.

Burro-crat wrote:

Vic Wertz wrote:

(...All I can say is that if they didn't think the numbers made sense, they wouldn't have done the deal.)

I'm not saying things won't work out just fine--and I really hope they do for everyone's sake--but let's be real here, a lot of companies do things without fully analyzing, fully understanding, or fully intending to commit to the plan. That same line of thought was applied ND, and we know how that story worked out.

"Inattention to detail" is not a description that I would use to describe the people that I have met from Archon. I understand what you are saying, but based only on my personal interactions with the people at Archon I don't think it applies in this case.

I got to see a bunch of their stuff for Wolfenstein The Board Game at GenCon, and it looks pretty amazing. If the Starfinder minis come out looking anywhere near as good, I think you'll all be very happy.

That's good to hear! Fingers crossed (oh, so so crossed)!

Deadline 1 is in a week, 2 if we assume Gen Con doesn't count. I'll know what I should expect going forward at that point.

I had January down as the first deadline, based on this:

Archon Studio plans to ship Kickstarter rewards in waves. Approximately every 6 months, the pledge rewards produced during the previous 6 months will be shipped to backers free of charge.

But haven’t been paying much attention elsewhere. Is there a proper expected timeline, somewhere?

Each month, Archon Studio plans to produce 4 or 5 of the minis announced during the Kickstarter plus 1 brand-new mini. These minis will be available for sale in your favorite local game store, on paizo.com, and direct from archon-studio.com.

Archon Studio should be presenting...something. In the near future.

Ah, I missed that. Cheers.

got my popcorn ready for the part where Ninja Division is responsible for all shipping outside Europe...

Deadline 1 is in a week, 2 if we assume Gen Con doesn't count. I'll know what I should expect going forward at that point.

There is no deadline in 1 week. Not sure what you're talking about.

Is there a proper expected timeline, somewhere?

Archon Studio is getting production set up for Starfinder, but they haven't announced a timeline or production schedule yet. The only announcement that's been made so far is what we included in the blog post.

Thanks. I hope they do make an effort in this regard. The history of poor communication in this project isn't their fault but it is part of the project that they've taken on.

You probably should be more clear with these things when you're taking the helm on a project characterized by evasive vagueness.

I latched on to the concrete numbers given to me by you and assumed what was said was what was meant because you weren't ND. I just don't want to be strung along anymore. 20+ months is a long wait for the first tangible return on a $400 leisure purchase, I hope you can appreciate that.

We aren't "taking the helm" as you call it. We announced a new partner - Archon Studio - and that new partner has graciously agreed to provide you with miniatures for free. Yes, we obviously had a hand in making that happen, but it wouldn't and couldn't have happened without Archon Studio's enthusiasm and desire to help.

We haven't given you any concrete numbers because there aren't any to give yet. And even if there were numbers to give, they wouldn't be ours to give. Archon Studio will provide you with further information as soon as they're comfortable doing so.

Remember that Archon Studio didn't owe you anything. They were also out money because of Ninja Division. They're doing this of their own free will. I hope you can appreciate that.

Each month, Archon Studio plans to produce 4 or 5 of the minis announced during the Kickstarter plus 1 brand-new mini. These minis will be available for sale in your favorite local game store, on paizo.com, and direct from archon-studio.com.

In future, please don't have your press releases worded so as to indicate a timetable exists when that is not the case. I don't know what this means by each month, but it sounds like each month. Maybe I've grown too accustomed to the stylings of Cadice with regards to this...

I guess I can see what you're talking about, and will try to screen future communication to avoid it. I can't promise that I'll be successful, though, because I simply don't read it the same way that you do. It doesn't say when that monthly plan begins, so the way I read it is that there will be monthly production once production begins.

I can see how someone who has been waiting for 20+ months might read that as production is beginning immediately, though. I'll see if I can get an update for you.

'Archon Studio didn't owe you anything' - they make it sound like we should be happy to get something if and when we get it; after all the issues with this KS that is pretty insensitive. (as posted on the kickstarter page....)

have to say i feel the same way, Its kinda messed to see a post like that from a employee from Paizo.

after all the ups and downs....(mostly down), last i checked Paizo is the one who helped push alot of us to sign up for this Kickstarter... or did the post from Erik Mona want to be forgotten

"We are aware of some of the issues with some of the earlier campaigns, but we are confident in the work that Ninja Division has shown us so far, in the Starfinder miniatures they have already produced and sold at Gen Con, and in their ability to deliver this project in the time-frame they have promised."

at this rate it will be years before i get what i payed and you will be on 2nd ed Starfinder at this rate.

'Archon Studio didn't owe you anything' - they make it sound like we should be happy to get something if and when we get it; after all the issues with this KS that is pretty insensitive. (as posted on the kickstarter page....)

Archon wasn't the ones that dropped the ball, they didn't have to do anything. Even still, they're going to take a $450,000 hit to make sure people get their minis.

Something like that should earn some shred of good will towards them.

Good will yes it does earn....but after this train wreck...im very much in the lane of I'll believe it when I see minis in my box...as this is now the 2nd time I have seen paizo post they have seen minis and they look good just wait till you have them...

And for ruff math..im 45+ minis deep...so at 6 ever 6 months comes to about 3 years before I get everything I should have had by this point...5 years plus is a hell of a time to wait...

I ran the numbers, and assuming they started immediately last month and made the maximum possible number of minis for each month, they'd be done somewhere around February of 2021. A far cry from 5 years. Of course the more realistic estimate would be by the end of 2021.

"Each month, Archon Studio plans to produce 4 or 5 of the minis announced during the Kickstarter..."

You are correct tech..i miss read info from jumping from multiple pages.

Have you guys seen the latest update? Not only are we getting plastic instead or resin, now they don't even come assembled!. This is not what we paid for in any way whatsoever.

Personally, I am not unhappy with the change. Plastic should be a little more robust, and unassembled allows for easy moding

I prefer plastic minis. I've broken resin minis with less delicate parts than some of the Starfinder sculpts. Hopefully they will be hard plastic instead of soft PVC. If they turn out to be soft plastic I'll be disappointed.

Well I went from excited about this to just throwing it all on the shelf for a few years. I didn’t back an assembly required project. Unassembled minis do me no more good than nothing at all. I work full time, am in school full time, take my kids to piano lessons, gymnastics, cheer, Girl Scouts, and 4 different therapists. On top of this I GM 2x a week in stores, some a 1 hour drive away. I bought a product to help me save time, not require me to vet and pay someone to do it for me. My schedule already has me going to bed at 1am 7 days a week and getting up at 6am 6 days a week.

I understand this is “free” and that others may like this, but I am being charged my valuable and very limited time without my consent.

This is an incredibly frustrating, negative turn of events. I don’t even own the stuff to properly trim, clean and prepare the surfaces, nor do I have any experience doing these things on anything smaller than a 150' wingspan cargo plane with far less precision required to appear perfect upon close inspection. So now I am forced to go from polished, finished product to my amateur garbage?

The only reason I am not throwing these up for sale immediately upon arrival is because maybe, after Spring of 2021, I *might* get some time to buy a bunch of other crap minis to screw up before finally being brave enough to try to get into crafting and start these minis. By then, I'll probably have all of the same minis preprainted out of the box, and well-worn from use, thanks to the Starfinder Battles boxes I will be buying, making these still basically worthless to me. It would have been less frustrating to hear that Archon was backing out then that they were going to make me put in hours of inexperienced work for a product that is probably on the verge of obsolescence anyway.

Personally, I am not unhappy with the change. Plastic should be a little more robust, and unassembled allows for easy moding

The plastic doesn't really bother me other than the fact that we paid for the more expensive resin. The unassembled is a huge issue for me, though. Like Freedom Snake said, I don't have the time, the tools, or the experience to deal with unassembled minis. I realize Archon didn't have to give us anything, but such a huge departure from what was pitched...I can't even think of the right words at the moment.

I did not pay for unassembled plastic parts, I paid for whole resin figures. I would be fine with either assembled or resin, but this?

I know, I know..."Be happy you're getting anything at all, nobody had to do this for you" right? At least I get the warm feeling of vindication out of this last bit.

I’m definitely not pleased with the news of the Starfinder minis now coming unassembled. The switch to plastic instead of resin wasn’t a change that bothered me, I’ve seen the quality possible with other minis. However, the change to the minis requiring assembly feels like a bait and switch to me. I signed up for a line of fully assembled minis, shipped to me after a reasonable time frame. I didn’t sign up for the time involved in assembly of the minis on top of the delays and changes to production that won’t have me receive all the minis I paid for until years after the project was supposed to be complete.

Is it too late for Archon to back out of this act of good will?

I'm over the initial shock of getting unassembled and like sanwah68 seeing some positives.

The scenic bases are nice and unassembled will allow for miniatures tailored for my characters.

Also, the plastic sprues remind me of Gorka Morka, so I'm hoping Archon will do some properly scaled Terrestrial vehicles soon! :-)

Is it too late for Archon to back out of this act of good will?

I'm not obligated to like key lime pie just because you made me key lime Pie. Especially when I ordered pumpkin pie from someone else, who was lying about having pumpkins. Could have given me money back, a franchise voucher, maybe even tried to make your own pumpkin pie. But the decision was to present me with something I didn't order, and ignored on the menu.

I feel vindicated because for the last month I'd been waiting for the "but" and to me this was a doozy of one. I've never been a crafty sort of person, my life is full of horribly botched craft projects and me with glue horrifies most of my family. Paint is as crafty as I get, and even that is perilous.

So for me I've gone from throwing all in on something because it's close enough to what I wanted, to not getting it, to realizing the people I paid for it will never be able to get it, to being informed that I will be getting something for my troubles...only it's even further away from what I paid for. And I'm being told that it is rude for me to voice my irritation at this.

Being irritated is fine, it's the callousness towards a company that's gonna take a major hit to offer a token of good will and fix another company's mistake that's not so pleasant.

Okay now I want pie.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Is it too late for Archon to back out of this act of good will?

I'm not obligated to like key lime pie just because you made me key lime Pie.

I'm not obligated to like your comments on pie.

technarken wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Is it too late for Archon to back out of this act of good will?

I'm not obligated to like key lime pie just because you made me key lime Pie.

I'm not obligated to like your comments on pie.

Mmm...

That being said, I wouldn't be happy with disassembled minis either.

Maybe you can sell them to someone to recoup some of the money you're out? At least you would have lost less in this deal, and you won't be stuck with un-assembled minis.

Maybe you can sell them to someone to recoup some of the money you're out? At least you would have lost less in this deal, and you won't be stuck with un-assembled minis.

If the Starfinder Battles start producing the same minis, I am 100% offloading this product that I cannot attempt to use until May of 2021 due to my schedule and may never have the time to learn a new type of professional quality craftsmanship for. I see no reason to produce garbage on my own time and money when my trash might be someone else’s treasure. I’d rather get nothing and suck up the loss than to have Archon try to help out by severely downgrading the product and handing it to me. It would be like handing a golfer a tee that is in two pieces and saying it’s better than nothing. No it’s not. It’s broken (down) and requires you to remove the pieces, clean the surfaces, assemble it with no evidence of assembly, then use it and expect it to be as sturdy as single piece construction.

Seriously would have rather been peeved at ND than be peeved at ND and also have Archon else come in and offer something totally different and unusable (by me) and call it help.

The gesture is nice. The execution is just another slap in the face after I had finally gotten over the whole thing.

Seriously would have rather been peeved at ND than be peeved at ND and also have Archon else come in and offer something totally different and unusable (by me) and call it help.

I suspect a lot of people are happy that this wasn’t a total write-off after ND basically became insolvent. If you prefer to just be mad at ND for not delivering, you can throw all the stuff you receive in the trash and pretend it never got fulfilled.

Because that was the only option. ND was probably never going to fulfill these. Archon took over the license. We’ll likely never be privy to the terms of that deal, but I would imagine it was a condition of their license that they fulfill these in some way.

ND has spent all the money you paid and didn’t produce all the miniatures, and judging by the wrangling at the start of the year they didn’t even pay for what was produced. Archon will never see any money from what they send you. I can understand why they’re trying to save on assembly labor for the ND fulfillment.

It’s definitely not reasonable to expect Archon to issue refunds, as some seem to be suggesting. Even Paizo, who may have received their licensing upfront, would only be able to refund pennies on the dollar. No one would have been happy with that, either. Most of the money went to ND, and it’s been squandered.

I understand that it sucks to have a Kickstarter not fulfill. I’ve backed around 130, and I’ve had half a dozen just swallow my money. But someone basically took your money, and someone else said they’d give you at least some of that money back, and people want to punch that person in the nose. The rage isn’t unreasonable but should be directed at Ninja Division.

If you really can’t use these, offer them for sale. Someone will take them. I’m definitely going to be buying these, so let me know if you sell them.