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Vic Wertz wrote:
stephen donohue wrote:
To me if paizo had any confidence in ninja division they wouldn’t be arranging for someone else to also publish the line. I don’t think it’s enough to distinguish them as one line is their painted line and the other is not.
I'll just point out that for years now, Pathfinder has had a prepainted plastic line from WizKids (Pathfinder Battles), a pre-primed plastic line from WizKids (Pathfinder Battles Deep Cuts), and an unpainted plastic line from Reaper (Pathfinder Bones). (Reaper also still has unpainted metal Pathfinder minis too, though they've shifted pretty hard to Bones and haven't introduced any new metals in a couple of years.) Even if Ninja Division had been sailing along flawlessly with a lively resin line, we would still be working with WizKids on Starfinder Battles.

This is true.

But would it not also be true that you could have forseen that Wizkids would eventually have enough time to do a starfinder mini line.

Given the warnings given about ND's lack of performance do you think it might have made a difference and saved people money if they had known there was a good chance that eventually there'd be a Wizkids line?

Especially if they had known it come out before the ND line?

Also, you keep mentioning progress?

How do you expect people to believe that when ND has shown no progress, refuses to engage backers, won't even clarify what happened to the minis Archon supposedly was set to destroy?

The only progress I see is ND & Paizo getting one month closer to the statute of limitations on a fraud lawsuit or ND's license running out giving them an excuse to not finish and a way out.

That's the excuse used on the Robotech kickstarter ND participated in (sabotaged) after years of lies about "progress".

What is Paizo's priority here? Protecting Backers and seeing they get the rewards or refunds they deserve or Protecting Paizo's bottom line at the expense of the backers?


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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Iceman1077 wrote:
If the new Wizkids minis show up before there is a resolution for this, I don't know that I can put any more trust in Paizo.
So Wizkids isn't allowed to produce minis until another company does? They're [Wizkids] are coming out next year, that's not a large time frame.

Yes, wizkids can make Starfinder minis.

BUT

When people tell you not to trust Ninja Divisions and suggest repeatedly using wizkids instead during the kickstarter which paizo convinced doubtful people that they had there back and got them to pledge, only to find out it was really a fraudulent kickstarter as all evidence indicates ND knew they would not, could not finish the project on time, if at all, and were in serious financial issues, which led them to throw money for the kickstarter elsewhere (a violation of Kickstarters TOS, thereby fraudulent) its pretty classless, distasteful and incredibly insulting to come back AFTER you help screw the backers and tell them your going to put out the product many wanted, but only if there willing to spend more money while essentially telling everyone the same lies palladium told everyone when ND threw them under the bus.

i.e. "I am still unable go into specifics (and still can't estimate when we will be able to do so), but we have seen a lot of progress in the last two weeks."

I think the third time that lines been used in the last month, 2 month, or longer? And yet no evidence of progress, comments, feedback or even some sign of the slightest bit of attention and commitment by ND on this KS exists.

I stand by my previous comment. This is nothign more then a distraction and stall until "Jazz Hands: Wizkids minis are in stores now"


ForeverQueen wrote:
2. Is there the possibility that Paizo even *can*, in some capacity, pursue an alternative course of action?

Yes.

In fact Paizo has already done so.

See the posts & press release on Starfinder battles from Wizkids.

Unfortunately that course involves people who've already been burned paying more money to another company to get minis for this game.


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I'm just assuming the game plan from paizo is to stall, stall, stall some more and then JAZZ-HANDS look at the awesome new minis from Wizkids in stores now! and sweep this entire project under the rug.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Also, the Kingmaker thing is a book, which Paizo and Legendary Games are very good at making, while this is a miniatures project, which Ninja Division is very bad at making.

I was under the impression Ninja Division doesn't actually make miniatures.

Ninja Divisions runs Kickstarters, all the way back to Robotech tactics, then rely on other people to actually make the miniatures, etc.

Form what I've seen of there history, again back to Robotech tactics is Ninja Division is really good at running a kickstarter and finding a patsy to give them an IP to ruin (Robotech, starfinder...) and lying through there teeth to get the patsy to agree but really bad at

#1 - Correctly estimating the cost of the product, manufacture & shipping.

#2 - Finding someone who is willing to manufacture the pieces at a loss because of #1.

#3 - Telling the backers the truth, because of #1 & #2

#4 - Post Campaign communication with backers, because of #3.

#5 - Taking responsibility for there actions and making things right with backers.


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Vic Wertz wrote:

Back to the topic at hand...

While I am unable to be more specific, we received an update this week that has made me more optimistic than I have been in quite some time that the light at the end of the tunnel will be coming into view for everyone soon.

Might I ask WHO the update came from and WHAT efforts you took to ensure it wasn't completely inaccurate, you know like the sales pitch they gave you to get you to let them run this kickstarter?

Ninja Division has a pretty bad track record, starting with Robotech tactics over 6 years ago.

So I would hope you are doing due diligence on backers behalf and not simply believing anything that comes out of there mouth without at least 2 independently verifiable sources?

I'd just like to know if this is a real, honest, good news report, or another one of the hollow, stall tactic promises we got on the Robotech tactics project from ND's partner there.

Given the timing, right when you launch a new crowd funding project which negative publicity could kill, I hope you'll forgive my suspicions.


Steve Geddes wrote:
technarken wrote:
I mean, what proof do we have that anything but the prepaints even have ND Sculpts?
I've received half a dozen ND unpainted minis. From memory three were the same or similar to the prepainted variety, but three were not.

"Half a dozen" vs. the total number of mini's that were supposed to shipped, only 3 of which were different than the prepaints is still essentially "nothing but the prepaints were done"


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I also have a fairly good success rate, though almost all are late to some degree, many to the point I have lost any interest in the product by the time it arrives over a year late.

But the failures have for the most part been truly expensive and more often then not seem to be the result of sheer incompetence on the part of the creators.

The bigger concern to me is that while the 1st few failures were creators new to Kickstarter, I'm seeing more established companies failing because they have fundamental issues with there company and how they execute work resulting in losses on most of there kickstarters that they keep kicking down the road hoping the next kickstarter makes them money and they can get back on top, only to eventually implode leaving the last group of backers totally screwed.


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Erik Mona wrote:
I have proof that these guys ARE trying, and some of that is encouraging. I don't want to say more than that, but I do want you guys to know and understand that much at least.

I can prove I've been trying to lose weight for the last 6 months but the scale in my bathroom says I've gained 3 pounds.

Ninja Division and Palladium "tried" to deliver wave 2 of Robotech tactics (well, Palladum tried, Ninja Division bailed in the first few months after they got paid) for 5 years before admitting it was never happening

Until ND actually ships mini's to backers they can say they are "trying" all they want and it means absolutely nothing to backers.

Backers deserve less "try" and more "do".

I also find it interesting after reports the mini's Archon had already produced being scheduled for destruction I've yet to see word of what actually happened, were they in fact destroyed?

If not, when will they ship?

If they have, how is ND "trying" to overcome that further deficit?

Paying Archon for minis already made and shipping them when ND is broke is bad enough. Paying archon for destroyed mini's, contracting to a new company to manufacture those same minis and paying them on top of what archons owed and then shipping is far is even worse.


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Robert Gooding wrote:
This is an open call for paizo to comment on ownership of the production files and if or why they cannot release them to backers

Keep in mind from Paizo's point of view based on earlier comments they have no legal responsibility to the backers. The kickstarter was done by Ninja Division under license, not by Paizo.

Also, the files in question would be set up for resin molding, not 3d printing, and could very well not work without considerable man hours of tweaking to make them printable. Just looking at the pictures from the kickstarter I see a lot of rifles , limbs, snakey tendrils, etc. that would be unprintable without supports or tweaks and some details that look to be too fine for a FDM printer.

The best bet would still be to somehow force Ninja Division and Archon to finish the project and get backers the mini's they bought.


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Burro-crat wrote:
Has anyone seen any updates from Archon since the fiscal quarter ended this past weekend?

If you mean did they post a pic of all the starcraft mini's they supposedly have done getting tossed into the garbage, no.

I am also curious if that happened or was just a negotiating tactic they used.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

If Paizo COULD come out and say anything they would, and temper tantrums being thrown and threatening to stop buy their products or boycott them is ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT that they are NOT LIABLE for the poor handling, delays, and production issues that ND has. It only makes it HARDER for them to reply to your questions when the whole garden has been salted with bad info, hate, and trollfat.

When Paizo was informed of ND's history of poor handling, delays, production issues and inabilities to fulfill previous kickstarters during the kickstarter Paizo doubled down and reassured everyone that ND could be trusted and backers would get what they pledged for.

I don't think its unfair to ask Paizo to explain why they felt so strongly about ND's ability to fulfill this KS, whats being done to honor the KS and how Paizo is going to get backers what they pledged for as per there reassurances during the kickstarter.

I strongly doubt the difficulty in answering that is due to backers requests for information or anything else happening in this thread, but rather Paizo not having a plan in place to back up there reassurances and promises and can't come up with one in light of ND's spectacular failure that doesn't cost them more money then they are willing to spend to make this right.

As to weather its Paizo's responsibility to make this right in my mind is based on weather Paizo's reassurances and promises were what tipped a backer into making a pledge in spite of ND's reputation.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Ninja Division may not be able to sue for breach of NDA, but Paizo setting the precedent of breaking contracts would be very poorly viewed in the eyes of their current and future partners.

Given the provocation by Ninja Division I wouldn't want Paizo to work with a company that took offense at them "breaking contract" when it seems clear that Ninja Division deliberately entered into said contract fraudulently with the intention to screw Paizo from the get go.


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SCSi wrote:
Summersnow wrote:
While I agree, the simple fact is there will most likely never be as much information as backers want as ultimately it must come from Ninja Division and they are not likely to ever admit they flat out intended to rip Paizo, Archon and the backers off and anything less then such an admission would not be accepted by many people.
I think a statement from Erik/Higher Ups(tm) on what evidence he had that ND would be able to deliver after many red flags were brought up would appease most of the masses. The fact that most of us feel cheated/lead astray by the Paizo heads vouching for them despite evidence proving otherwise is really (from what I see) is the chief complaint.

Fair point.

I'm assuming at this point since we have not seen that it will not be forthcoming.

I'm sure the excuse will be "NDA" or somesuch.

I just wonder sometimes why and how an NDA or contract applies when you're dealing with a company Like Ninja Division, who apparently deliberately set Paizo up and is costing them sales & damaging they're reputation.

At what point does Paizo & especially its CS reps have to stop taking it on the chin for a company who certainly looks like they deliberately intended to stab them in the back from the start?

Because if that's what "THE LAW" requires of them then there is something seriously wrong with "THE LAW"


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technarken wrote:
Diego Valdez wrote:
As I mentioned in my previous post, customer service does not have the power to say anything beyond what Sara has posted. Which you just said you don't want to hear. Likewise, as I mentioned above, we have been making sure this thread stays visible to the company higher ups. Despite your assumption of 10 minutes, you have no idea how much time and energy myself or my colleagues have put into doing so.
Maybe with access to more information people wouldn't be left with a blank space for their minds to spin theories out on?

While I agree, the simple fact is there will most likely never be as much information as backers want as ultimately it must come from Ninja Division and they are not likely to ever admit they flat out intended to rip Paizo, Archon and the backers off and anything less then such an admission would not be accepted by many people.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Of course, the longer it goes without official comment the more likely it is we’ll try and “fill in the gaps” from our position of relative ignorance.

This is probably the biggest problem with this situation.

People spent a lot of money, have nothing to show for it and the people responsible, weather it be ND, Paizo, Archon, aren't really giving backers much of a real explanation as to how this could have happened and what is being done to resolve it.

I understand there are NDA's, contracts and such to consider, but at some point that needs to go out the window and honest answers need to be provided, not dodgy half truths and butt covering.

All of the parties involved need to live up to there requirements as per the CURRENT KS tos (not the old ones that don't apply people keep reffering to when demanding refunds)

"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."


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Fumarole wrote:
To be fair, no one here has ordered these miniatures from Ninja Division. Many people pledged money to Ninja Division's Kickstarter to have miniatures made, but that is not the same thing. Until people stop treating Kickstarter like a store these woes will continue to happen.

I have and will continue to dispute this point.

backers did not pay to have the miniatures made, they paid to have them delivered.

Stop trying to blame backers for ND's blatant misuse of Kicxkstarter as a pre-order service.

Until CREATORS stop USING Kickstarter as a PRE-ORDER store these woes will continue to happen.

That would be a more accurate statement.


technarken wrote:
Well, at least Archon will be destroying the minis in a couple weeks, so Paizo should be able to quit being vague then.

Yeah, not seeing anything online to back this up, other then your post on the KS page.

I get it your pissed, but if you are lying about this to generate outrage to cause Paizo / ND / Archon damage you might actually be committing a crime.

So maybe mention where you heard this as of yet unfounded rumor?


technarken wrote:
Well, at least Archon will be destroying the minis in a couple weeks, so Paizo should be able to quit being vague then.

Where did you hear that?

It sounds more like a negotiating tactic then an intelligent decision on Archons part.

I would also think it could be illegal as those mini's were bought and paid for by backers and they have a legitimate claim to those minis.

Its also an extremely bad move as far as PR is concerned.

Destroying mini's KS backers have paid for could get them some extremely negative comments on any future kickstarters they are involved in. I'd certainly be a lot more reluctant to touch anything they are involved in if they pulled a move like that.

Kind of like cutting your nose off to spite your face and all that.


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Steve Geddes wrote:

I have an ongoing relationship with Paizo and my confidence in them has been dented - this project has already impacted on my support for Paizo-licensed kickstarters. Without sounding too accusatory of him, I’d like to hear why ND were given such backing from Paizo since from my perspective there wasn’t any grounds for confidence in them.

I’m hoping to hear a more thorough explanation of what went wrong.

I think this is the best description I've seen of how most of us feel and what we would like at a very minimum.


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Kroothawk wrote:

You can go on claiming that the world has only 3 companies capable of doing scifi miniatures (and including ND in that list of "large" companies).

Everyone else knows this is so wrong that it is not even worth discussing.

I will give you the same answer I've given before when this ahs come up.

Please list other companies that have the capability & willingness do do said project and provide a letter from them verifying they have the capability and would have said yes if approached.

Arguing that Paizo should have turned down ND's offer AT THE TIME WITHOUT KNOWING HOW BADLY IT WOULD TURN OUT, and gone to another, as of yet mythical company, because while people like you continue to spout off about how many there are, but no one has listed a single viable alternative is just nonsense.

If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to back up your claim as to the existence of these mythical companies that would have jumped at the chance to provide minis.


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James - Unfortunately Paizo has more then just itself & the backers to contend with.

There is ND, who has a license which gives them certain rights and Paizo can not just simply walk in a revoke those rights and do whatever they want to fix this.

There is Archon, who most likely has a contract with ND and not Paizo, so Paizo can not simply walk in and toss them a bunch of money. They need to go through or work with ND.

There may be a distribution partner, who may have a contract with ND or Archon or both and not Paizo.

There is also precedent here. Paizo deals with a lot of 3rd party vendors and more and more they use Kickstarter.

How does Paizo step in to provide rewards without putting themselves in a position of becoming responsible for every single kickstarter for a Paizo brand product? Or do they just not allow anyone ever to use kickstarter because of the liability which cuts off some 3rd party providers from the ability to make there products a reality?

As much as everyone would love for this to be simple, quick, easy to fix, its not.


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Palladium Books said the same thing after ND put them in a bind for 5 years before admitting it was all a lie.

A project with the Mini's made (as per Archon) but not delivered because ND spent the money on something else and can't pay Archon is not "delayed".

Its "failed" until someone comes in and hands ND more money (Paizo?).


technarken wrote:
MadMattUK wrote:
Sara Marie wrote:
"does not put backers' prospects of receiving miniatures from Ninja Division's kickstarter campaign at further risk. "
A fine sentiment but I'm not sure how our chances of receiving any figures can drop below 0%.
I think they're haggling with Archon Studios to try and get the Starfinder Minis already manufactured out of Ninja Division's custody.

I would assume getting them would be easy, just pay archon for the mini's.

I imagine the haggling is over how much that would cost and who's going to pay it.

Then once they get them there's shipping to contend with.


Silas

The big issue with ND's kickstarter is that Paizo let it be ND's kickstarter, which meant ND was paid up front and got to spend the $$$ on whatever they wanted.

I don't think any of your precautions would have helped with that.

I suspect using all of the licensee disclaimers as you suggest would have just backfired as people would have backed anyways when Paizo came out in support of ND the way they did and Paizo using that language to tell everyone its all on ND would have likely just made backers even angrier and feeling like Paizo always planned to let ND scam them and then use the language as a cop out.

The money should have gone to Paizo who would then pay Archon up front and ND getting performance based pay, they design X # of mini's and they get paid X $$$.

The fact that ND most likely wouldn't have worked under those arrangements as they wouldn't have been able to use the money to finance other projects at Paizo & the Starfinder backers expense would have been the final clue Paizo needed to realize this was really nothing more then a scam pulled on them and the backers by ND.


It looks to me like Archon is taking heat on there own kickstarters and is promising to throw Starfinder Mini backers a bone to try and avoid fallout from Ninja Divisions actions.


Silas Stadatilas wrote:
Robert Gooding wrote:
Summersnow wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems.

I've had this discussion previously.

Paizo became liable when, despite warnings to the contrary, they reassured backers that they had investigated those concerns and ND would not have any issues and fulfill the kickstarter.

Paizo didn't just hand a license over to ND, they SOLD the project to backers who knew better but went ahead anyways because they trusted Paizo's word.

In that light, does that not make them indictable for accessory to fraud should the nd investigations go ahead since they both helped sell the scam and profited from it?

Really, lets avoid discussing criminal stuff and the 'f' word. I think Summersnow was thinking more of a civil cause of action such as negligent referral.

Personally, not sold as others that Paizo has no civil liability under the basic Kickstarter, but I covered that in an earlier post. Why Paizo didn't demand changes to how the Kickstarter was presented is beyond me.

Correct, I don't believe Paizo did anything illegal or fraudulent (though the boats still out on Ninja Division in that regard) but I do believe Paizo is liable to backers as in they need to make every reasonable effort, even if it costs them some money, to come to a satisfactory resolution for the backers but not in the sense anyone could, or should take them to court.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems.

I've had this discussion previously.

Paizo became liable when, despite warnings to the contrary, they reassured backers that they had investigated those concerns and ND would not have any issues and fulfill the kickstarter.

Paizo didn't just hand a license over to ND, they SOLD the project to backers who knew better but went ahead anyways because they trusted Paizo's word.


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I'm still waiting for one of the people who insists Paizo had lots of choices for manufacturers to come back with a list and a letter from each indicating they could have done it and would have done it had Paizo come to them.


SCSi wrote:
J-Bone wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:


The only viable option, as evaluated by Paizo at the time. Hindsight is 20/20 and all.

How do you know that? Paizo hasn't been at all forthcoming in the decision making process? Maybe if they did, we could avoid a lot of this discussion.

Maybe they are betting on the short attention span of gamers and hope it'll just be forgotten in a few months.

I mean im sure thats what Palladium is doing with their Robotech Fiasco

Palladium is not even a remotely fair comparison as there products have always been an extremely small niche, nothing close to the volume Paizo does.

Palladium also caters to a "fanbois" player base who still love them to death despite robotech's failure and the new backers who only got into Palladium for that one kickstarter are meaningless to Kevin & Palladium as they would generate no future, long term revenue for them.

Paizo on the other hand could see a long term loss of revenue if players not only bail on Starfinder, but Pathfinder as well.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
SechulLath wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
SechulLath wrote:
With ND's reputation and lack of bargaining power at the onset of the deal,
Paizo needed minis for the launch of their new game. Everyone else turned them down. ND had an enormous amount of bargaining power there.
It's a convenient story but literally an hour of diligence would've uncovered a litany of red flags and identified just how desperate and untrustworthy ND were. There's also a disconnect in that ND outsourced production to a different company, arguably one that had an even worse KS track record at the time but nonetheless a sign that the project was beyond ND's capacity. Also if its a business critical project, why would you not put safeguards in. It seems like Paizo was fine with taking a risk on the KS side as long as they could get the prepainted minis for retail on time.

They probably used as much safeguards as they could, they had no control over the KS since ND was the one running it.

As for "convenient story", it was take a risk for minis, or have absolutely no minis for their new game.

But for many people, including from what I understand everyone outside of the US they have absolutely no mini's for the game despite paying quite a bit of money for them.

Take a risk yes, but the entire burden of that risk should not have fallen on the backers shoulders.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
SechulLath wrote:
With ND's reputation and lack of bargaining power at the onset of the deal,
Paizo needed minis for the launch of their new game. Everyone else turned them down. ND had an enormous amount of bargaining power there.

I agree, Paizo tried to make the best of a bad situation and it backfired on them.

But I do have to wonder if Paizo would have partnered with ND and not taken extra precautions, such as paying in installments as work was done, instead of handing them all the cash at once if it had been Paizo's money at risk instead of backers money.


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The update was just a very formal, well written way of saying the same thing that was said during the robotech project they worked on, for 4-5 years before they admitted failure.

You got some of yer stuff, were working really, really hard on the rest and we'll get you your stuff someday.

All that's missing is the "This is the Year of Robotech, err, Starfinder", "Waiting on Quotes from China", "Part count reduction" and "Its the Shippers fault for charging so much!"


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Yoshua wrote:

The comments on the new Ninja Division update is pure gold.

People asking for the .stl files.... That would be glorious, but no way Paizo would let their IP into the wild... Would they?

Obvious no one is getting a refund.

Best comment so far is the guy saying they should go back and find the people who told everyone Ninja Division was shady and would take the money and run.... And thank them/apologize for not listening. lol... That was just gold.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2420184

Apology Accepted.

Though I would much rather this had worked out and everyone was right and could tell us "I told you so" when they said we were just being paranoid and could trust Paizo to keep ND in line.


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Its further complicated by the fact that the backers already bought and paid for those mini's BNW.

Does Archon own the minis, or do the backers own the mini's? Is it legal for Archon to take the mini's the backers paid for, thereby "stealing" the minis the backers paid for to recover there own losses, leaving the backers hanging?

In fact I have a question for Sara Marie to pass along.

Is it even Legal for Paizo/ND/Archon to hold these talks without the backers having representation at those talks? Who speaks for the backers?

After all, its the backers money that funded this.

I mean when Paizo / Archon comes up with a deal it will most likely be geared to help Archon and Paizo first with the backers paying the price.

According to the terms of Kickstarter backers have a legal contract with the parties involved, ND/Paizo/Archon.

How are backers voices heard, how are they represented?

Why are backers NOT part of the Non disclosure agreements?

At what point does Paizo become completely liable for any damages backers suffer because they are keeping backers out of the discussion?


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Cr1ms0nsh4d3 wrote:
I'm going to be selling all my Paizo material, over $1000 worth and I will not be buying another thing from this company. Not only have they endorsed Ninja Division and assured us they would make sure they followed through, they are blatantly not making us customers a priority. This will probably be deleted because it speaks truth.

I think its a little quick to condemn Paizo so readily.

This is a legal issue involving a large amount of $$$ and multiple companies and multiple overlapping contracts.

These kinds of things take months to resolve, not days or weeks. Given that I suspect 1 party in the agreement (Ninja Division) to be uncooperative and non-communicative this can't be easy.

Form a post below it sounds like Paizo is communicating with the manufacturer (Archon) directly and trying to find a solution that's equitable to both companies. That sounds like they are following through to me.

Given that any such agreement is likely to involve both companies losing money out of there own pockets I'd hardly call Paizo's actions "blatantly not making us customers a priority", that's a bit strong.

Selling your stuff is your decision, but before you do so maybe take a deep breath?


Foeclan wrote:
HLO does what it's intended to do, within the limitations of cloud storage. It works the way it's intended to. So, yes, I'd say it's unfair to compare them to Bethesda (which delivered a buggy product) or Ninja Division (which, from what I've seen in the other threads about it, failed to deliver at all for most of their backers). LWD delivered on exactly what they said they'd do. Just because they're not offering the product you want doesn't mean they've done something wrong.

The original posts about Starfinder support from Herolabs made no mention of an Online Only Subscription model.

Of course those posts also mentioned it would be ready around release time, not months and months later.

The first mention of a subscription service ( that I saw anyways) was well after Starfinder was released (and I had sunk a lot of money into it) so I do in fact consider what Hero labs did very similar to what ND did as I would NOT have bought into the system had Hero labs in fact been open and up front and not misled people about there intentions before the game released.


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technarken wrote:
damning news wrote:
The company had been giving its backers updates — 132 of them — but “communication from a small group of backers has become increasingly vocal and hostile” and threatening, it said. Cadice told the Statesman that’s why the company stopped engaging with its customers.
People tend to do this when they become convinced you're cheating them. It took me MONTHS before I became vocal, but I became vocal because nobody was talking to me.

Wasn't me! I Swear!

Not this project. I bailed because I knew how it would end and I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again after Robotech.

It is interesting that the guiltier the company is the more they blame the backers for the failure to communicate.


Follow up question, would you consider them as good as the pathfinder mini's done by wizkids?

I haven't seen any myself but I know the pathfinder sets I've gotten have ranged from really nice for a low cost prepainted mini to really bad, but I've assumed that was due to sloppy paint obscuring details and never really considered just how good the molded figure was, pre-paint.


So basically the AG's for several states sent ND a letter asking them if they've committed fraud and got a "oh, no, we spent all the money on the game and are working round the clock to finish it" and that's good enough for them.

I guess that means the AG will not do anything for backers. If the backers want a resolution they will need to sue.

This is the tragic flaw of Kickstarter. Its a platform which only has one course of resolution when things go wrong, a lawsuit, but ensures each individual backers commitment is small enough so they won't sue.

It comes down to weather Paizo has any sort of leverage over them or the willingness to spend there own money to complete the project.

One question I have from people who have actually gotten stuff. Are the minis high enough quality, I've heard many are lumpy, bad, that you'd want a broke ND & paizo to finish them or another company to be brought in, presumably a better company, to finish?


Stay safe and take care guys.

See you when you get back.


Couple of comments on previous posts:

Amano - You're right, now one has stated you won't get your miniatures. Creators of failed kickstarters don't admit there failures, that would hinder there ability to run more kickstarters. I think its far more telling that no one is saying you WILL get your mini's or presenting any sort of plan or timeline for that to happen despite pressure from backers to do so.

James Todd - Project creators have run afoul of AG's and been sued before, but NONE of that has ever gone back on Kickstarter. The ToS and "contract" you agree to when you sign up to use there site forces you to agree they are held harmless if a project fails.

technarken - all questions I think we'd like to see answered, none of which I expect to be answered.


Themetricsystem wrote:
Nazrath wrote:
I am seriously torn between hoping beyond hope that we will eventually get the miniatures we paid for, and more realistically holding ND management legally accountable for their financial actions. The more I see of saying/not saying things without any noticeable progress the more I move towards taking legal action which would surely kill the dream of getting the minis. I have held off moving that direction because Paizo was at least commenting to us, but if you review not much has really been said or any movement seen by the backers.

I'm not trying to be disruptive or abusive but....

Talking about "legal action" is a waste of breath, I would bet my hat that even with the best lawyer money can buy in your pocket you'd still get laughed out to the courtroom... Kickstarter as a platform explicitly lays out that you have NO legal recourse to go after KS or ND in this manner.

I'm not sure where you are getting the last part from.

The last KS ToS I read clearly indicate that KS itself is a 3rd part to the agreement between backer and creator and has no liability. You could sue them if you want, but you'd be wasting your time & money.

The ToS DOES make it clear that the "contract" between creator and backer is between the creator and backer and does not in any way I see exempt the creator from legal liability for failure to perform and deliver rewards.

I do believe in fact that while KS makes it clear they will not participate in any legal action, on either side, backers are welcome to use the ToS as part of a legal action against the creator.

Now, I agree suing ND would be pointless, they are pretty much broke, suing broke people doesn't usually end well, but if someone has them time & money to waste I don;t see anything legally preventing them from doing so.


James Todd wrote:
This is also why, if KS is never going to require it, big companies should be required to secure some form of underwriting/insurance that fires upon failure to make backers whole.

Kickstarter should carry the insurance as part of the % they take from creators to cover EVERY project, not just big companies.

I think if each individual kickstarter creator had to carry it many of them wouldn't be able to get it and backers would lose out on a lot of great, but small, kickstarters.


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Aunders wrote:
Edit: And you could argue that the products have Paizo's name on them, which is true and I understand that point, but I also see that these products have no bearing on the game itself. They're not required, and they're not really advertised on the Paizo website despite having Paizo's name on it.

I do require a computer character creator and mini's for my games. With the complexity of most character creation systems nowadays and the added benefit of miniatures inside all of the 3d terrain I have the games aren't the same without them.

I'm not blaming Paizo as much as I am disappointed in the way they allowed the two 3rd party providers who provide two important and necessary parts (to me) of the system to do things exclusively for the benefit of themselves and NOT in my opinion Paizo's customers or backers.

I would like to see Paizo in the future perhaps provide more oversight to ensure the 3rd party providers of this importance are actually doing things that are good for the players and customers.


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Peachbottom wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Ah, I guess Sara Marie can go back to useful things her workload requires then rather than responding in with updates after being badgered about it constantly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Sara Marie means well and it's better than nothing, but her posts are essentially lip service. I see little difference between her posts and the handful of posts from Scott from Ninja Division on the Kickstarter page before he left. The posts are a transparent attempt to placate the masses with false hope and zero information. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees this. An official statement from Paizo with substantial information is long overdue.

Sara Marie's posts are the result of previous requests from backers, myself included, for SOME contact, even if its nothing more then "we are working on it but can't say anything" to at least let backers know they haven't been forgotten or ignored.

I realize everyone would like this wrapped up and resolved with the snap of a finger, like things are in a tv show, but that's not going to happen.

You have a license holder who's 3rd part licensee is broke and can't finish a project and who has closed off all communication with backers.

This means lawyers and the courts will be involved which most likely means a MINIMUM of 6 months to a year before a resolution, most likely one unsatisfactory to backers.

If Paizo can somehow spend a month or two of "sorry, we're working on it but can't say anything" and negotiate a resolution without the courts it will most likely be far better then what backers can expect from the court.


I also gave up on Starfinder because of Herolabs handling of the Character generator and what I expected to happen with the miniatures kickstarter, which actually looks to have turned out far worse then my worst expectations.

With the new Pathfinder 2.0 and its Herolabs program also being online only and the future of PF 1.0 in doubt I'm having a hard time justifying any purchases for either system.

It really bothers me that Paizo allowed my love of there games to end because of bad decisions by 3rd party partners and what looks to be lack of oversight or caring on Paizo's part.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
technarken wrote:
...they could force Ninja Division to actually talk to the people that've paid their bills...
How?
Force them into a game of Survivor?

They could take the CEO/OWNER of companies of the major failed Kickstarter projects and as long as the one voted off each week ended up with a nice lengthy jail term I'd watch it :-)


technarken wrote:
Oh, there's plenty they can do. It's just all of those actions would breach a contract we've not seen and cost Paizo more money than it would earn them good will.

The problem is it could very well cost Paizo more money then they have available to fix this problem.

I strongly doubt they keep a cool half mil sitting unused in a bank somewhere they could throw at the problem with 0 expected return on the investment.

That's even assuming the could find a 4th manufacturer (2 turned them down, ND is third) that would be willing to take up the line.


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Armok: God of Blood wrote:
I like how they took over $450,000, delivered next to nothing, and all the community is getting back is vague statements. This is not a good image, contractual obligations be damned.

Yes.

But try to keep in mind Paizo is undoubtedly incredibly aware of how bad of an image this is and is doing everything they can to resolve it.

The unfortunate fact is there may not be a whole lot they can do.

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