Born of Two Worlds

Tuesday, July 24, 2018

As some of you have no doubt noticed, we haven't said much about half-elves and half-orcs except to confirm that they'll be part of the Pathfinder Playtest. Of all of the ancestry choices in Pathfinder, these were two of the trickiest to design. With the way that the feats are structured, it would be easy enough to just list the feats from both parents (plus some unique options), but that quickly led to cherry-picking the best of both. Moreover, that approach didn't address the base statistics of the ancestry that are very important to overall balance, such as starting hit points and speed.

In the end, we decided to make both half-elves and half-orcs an addition to the human ancestry. You start by selecting human, then take the corresponding heritage feat to represent your diverse ancestry. Let's take a look at the half-elf feat.

Half-Elf Feat 1

Heritage, Human

Either one of your parents was an elf, or one or both were half-elves. You have pointed ears and other telltale signs of elven heritage. You gain the elf trait. Select two of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light). In addition, you can select elf, half-elf, and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

This approach comes with a number of advantages. First off, it lets us make a half-elf that truly does have some of the advantages of both ancestries, while still allowing you to pick the parts that you think best represent your character's upbringing. Grew up among elves? Then picking up the Elven language makes sense. Had to explain yourself to the humans you grew up with? Then being trained in Diplomacy might be the way to go. As with all of our ancestries, we wanted the choice of being a half-elf or half-orc to be meaningful to your character and expressive of the backstory that you've decided to create. This ancestry feat gives a lot of benefits; to get similar benefits, you would normally use a general feat to pick up Adoptive Ancestry, which grants you access to the ancestry feats from another ancestry (as long as they don't have physiological requirements) to represent your deep connection to another ancestry's culture and traditions. However, being a half-elf gives you access to human feats, elf feats, and half-elf feats (including feats with physiological components), as well as two additional benefits.

At this point, you might be saying, wait, what about humans in general? Let's take a look at some of their options. At its core, human is a very flexible ancestry, with choices like Natural Ambition to gain an extra 1st-level class feat, General Training to gain an extra 1st-level general feat, and Skilled to gain training in two additional skills. However, humans also have fun options for particular builds, like this one for a character who wants to reduce the penalties for being untrained.

Clever Improviser Feat 1

Human

You've learned how to handle situations where you're out of your depth. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for skills in which you're untrained.

Of course, this approach for half-elves and half-orcs means that we needed to include a few orc feats in the book so players would get the complete experience of being a half-orc. Take a look at this classic feat.

[[R]] Orc Ferocity Feat 1

Orc

Frequency once per day

Trigger You're reduced to 0 Hit Points.


Fierceness in battle runs through your blood, and you refuse to fall from your injuries. When this feat is triggered, you avoid being knocked out and remain at 1 Hit Point.

This allows the half-orc to stay in the fight after taking a felling blow, even a really big hit or a critically failed save against a dragon's breath attack!

In addition to allowing you to choose any feat from both ancestries, we were also able to design a few ancestry feats specifically for half-elves and half-orcs. Take a look at this half-elf feat.

Inspire Imitation Feat 5

Half-Elf

You inspire your allies to great feats through your own actions. Whenever you critically succeed at a skill check, you automatically qualify to take the Aid reaction when attempting to help an ally at the same skill check, even without spending an action to prepare to do so.

This means that when you critically succeed, you can Aid your ally at no extra cost to yourself, which is particularly useful if your ally needs some help doing something at which you excel.

Beyond what this means for half-elves and half-orcs, using an ancestry feat to unlock a more diverse heritage gives us a lot of options for the future. For instance, aasimars, tieflings, and other planar scions come from a wide variety of ancestries in Golarion, instead of just defaulting to human. In Pathfinder First Edition, there's a sidebar to that effect, but it provides no mechanical adjustments for non-human planar scions beyond their size category. The playtest treatment would allow you to build a character whose ancestry really reflects their combined heritage. And if your setting has half-elves and half-orcs where the other parent isn't human, say half-orc/half-dwarf characters, you can just allow the half-orc feat for dwarf characters and the rest of the work is already taken care of. This also opens up a lot of design space (in the form of feats) to explore what otherworldly parentage might mean, giving you different options based on what type of outsider has influenced your heritage, similar to the popular subcategories of aasimar and tieflings (pitborn, musetouched, and so on). Having a solar in the family might grant access to entirely different feats than if your ancestors were blessed by a hound archon.

Now, this approach is a little different than what we've done in the past, so we are going to be asking a few questions about this through surveys during the playtest. We're keen to hear what you think about half-elves and half-orcs in the playtest. Why not roll one up and give it a try?

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Quandary wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
How exactly does a half-orc benefit from being able to pick from two lists? It's impossible to even do that until level ten. If you're like me and want multiple orcish features then it's likely that you'll never pick a human feat at all and would have been much better off if it was possible to just play an orc (which I generally can't do because half-orcs have long been considered the acceptable alternative by Paizo and other D&D-esque developers).
Look, if you just want to be an Orc and don't care about Human stuff, actually being an Orc should ALWAYS be better. Orcs are fully playable in P1E, just because they aren't in "player focused" product doesn't change that. I do have issues with their approach here, which I believe can be addressed within over-all framework they have chosen, but expecting "Halfs" to serve your desire for "Fulls" which happen to be marginalized by convention is distorting the issue and undermining distinctive nature of "Halfs" and "Fulls".

Orcs aren't playable, it has never been Paizo's intention for orcs to be playable, and it is extremely disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. Literal demon children are more accepted and encouraged character choices than orcs. And now goblins, I guess.


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So looks like our assumptions about half-races and planetouched becoming heritage feat chains were correct! Overall, I am very excited about the possibilities this opens up for tieflings in the future (as well as other planetouched and mixed races).

However, I wonder if the heritage feat entry could be expanded a bit to include more flavor. Actual races have a good amount of flavor text detailing how they are viewed by society, look, and interact with the world around them. While the half-races might get away with not including all these extra flavor details since both of their parents have full race entries- it seems like it'll become a problem if there isn't a format for doing so when things like aasimar and tieflings come around.

Additionally, the arguments here remind me of one of my first negative thoughts about ancestry feats, the fact that you don't get many of them (5 total at levels 1,5,9,13,17 it looks like?). Rather than just getting 2 ancestry feats at level 1 with a restriction, I wonder if it might be better to get more ancestry feats over a character's career? (Especially during earlier levels.) After all, the benefit of a half-race being able to take ancestry feats from two lists isn't as impressive when you don't get many ancestry feats total over an average campaign.

Alternatively, perhaps you could let characters take an ancestry feat in place of a general feat? This looks like it would allow for the potential of getting one at every odd level, though it would then mean competing against general feats in terms of overall usefulness. Without knowing how comparable the feat lists are, its hard to say if this would work for a character that really wanted to express their unique ancestry.

Liberty's Edge

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Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

In fairness, the Half Elf gets +2 HP as well, and probably winds up with the same number of languages even not picking up Elven.

But yeah, I'm not as impressed as I might be. The HP is nice at 1st level, but +2 HP isn't really worth a Feat and that and the long term advantages, which seem to not kick in until 9th level at the earliest, are all you get for going Half Elf over Elf, and frankly don't make for a very compelling choice.

Now, if you can spend General Feats to grab Ancestry Feats it starts looking much better (since the long term benefits kick in much sooner), but I believe it's been implied you can't do that.


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I think there's a fundamental problem here that the half- races shouldn't be seen as "boosts to an existing race", which is what they're being presented as here, and why you're arguing the way you are... For a lot of people, these are character-defining and roleplay-based decisions, and having a feat tax associated with that decision seems wrong (sorry, but this is one instance where I feel like the term "feat tax" *is* actually appropriate).


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Man.. an after taking so much crap on this forum for my suggestions of handling them this way, and how it would totally ruin the game for those people - and that's how they are being handled anyway. Very happy to hear this - though I very much wish the half-breed options are opened up significantly going forward. Also would be much 'cleaner' if 'Orc' was an actual race in the game, so Half-orc didn't have to get some donor feats thrown at it.

Is it the intention that other 'half-breeds' are handled the same way? Sylph, Oread, Undine, Ifrit, Aasimar, Tiefling, etc. should all be able to be handled by a Heritage Feat that opens up specific Ancestry feats. The real advantage of that is it then allows Dwarf based Plane-touched characters (something that has just been hinted at as a possible homebrew option in 1st edition).

EDIT: Never-mind the last bit - I somehow tottaly missed that paragraph.

Dark Archive

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Umm, this version of Orc Ferocity wouldn't make sense as free action.

Mainly because wouldn't that make it impossible to kill orcs since they always return to 1 hp when damage would reduce them to 0? This basically means that once per round you can ignore one hit and remain at 1 hp


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

I don't understand the value of losing the heritage trait. Heritage traits can only be selected at level 1 right? But you'd already have to have this feat as your heritage feat to spend a second feat on it, so it doesn't open up a new heritage feat option. Am I missing something as to why this is a necessary feature of the feat?


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Unicore wrote:
Quote:
Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.
I don't understand the value of losing the heritage trait. Heritage traits can only be selected at level 1 right? But you'd already have to have this feat as your heritage feat to spend a second feat on it, so it doesn't open up a new heritage feat option. Am I missing something as to why this is a necessary feature of the feat?

The 'FEAT' loses the Heritage trait when taken a second time, meaning it is just an ancestry feat the second time. Otherwise, if it still had the 'HERITAGE' trait, it would be limited to being selected once at 1st level only.


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So can I take Half Drow and Half Tiefling later to make the ultimate edge?


Arachnofiend wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
If you're like me and want multiple orcish features then it's likely that you'll never pick a human feat at all and would have been much better off if it was possible to just play an orc (which I generally can't do because half-orcs have long been considered the acceptable alternative by Paizo and other D&D-esque developers).
Look, if you just want to be an Orc and don't care about Human stuff, actually being an Orc should ALWAYS be better. Orcs are fully playable in P1E, just because they aren't in "player focused" product doesn't change that. I do have issues with their approach here, which I believe can be addressed within over-all framework they have chosen, but expecting "Halfs" to serve your desire for "Fulls" which happen to be marginalized by convention is distorting the issue and undermining distinctive nature of "Halfs" and "Fulls".
Orcs aren't playable, it has never been Paizo's intention for orcs to be playable, and it is extremely disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. Literal demon children are more accepted and encouraged character choices than orcs. And now goblins, I guess.

Nothing to do with accepted and encouraged, they are fully playable, no mechanical barrier to that.

Your desire to use "back door" to evade Developer "discouragement" is absurd...
You actually think that is effective argument vs somebody in favor of that "discouragement"?
Might as well just ask them to remove "discouragement" of Full Orcs itself then. (which isn't in actual rules for Orc characters)


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CorvusMask wrote:

Umm, this version of Orc Ferocity wouldn't make sense as free action.

Mainly because wouldn't that make it impossible to kill orcs since they always return to 1 hp when damage would reduce them to 0? This basically means that once per round you can ignore one hit and remain at 1 hp

Read it again, it can only be triggered 1/day. Just like PF1 version.


tivadar27 wrote:
I think there's a fundamental problem here that the half- races shouldn't be seen as "boosts to an existing race", which is what they're being presented as here, and why you're arguing the way you are... For a lot of people, these are character-defining and roleplay-based decisions, and having a feat tax associated with that decision seems wrong (sorry, but this is one instance where I feel like the term "feat tax" *is* actually appropriate).

What makes them a 'boost' though?

Liberty's Edge

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tivadar27 wrote:
I think there's a fundamental problem here that the half- races shouldn't be seen as "boosts to an existing race", which is what they're being presented as here, and why you're arguing the way you are... For a lot of people, these are character-defining and roleplay-based decisions, and having a feat tax associated with that decision seems wrong (sorry, but this is one instance where I feel like the term "feat tax" *is* actually appropriate).

This is also true. It's not a mechanical issue, but a gut level 'I have to pay X penalty to play the character I want?!' complaint.

If someone likes playing Half Orcs for thematic reasons but finds none of the baseline Half Orc options (which all seem fairly bland, if mechanically pretty good, going by Half Elf, and are a shorter list and far less compelling than full Ancestry Feats) either mechanically necessary or fun, then they are being forced to choose between their concept (wanting to play a Half Orc) and creating a character they find mechanically interesting, in a way and to a degree that no baseline Ancestry does.

The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.

Designer

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Deadmanwalking wrote:


Now, if you can spend General Feats to grab Ancestry Feats it starts looking much better (since the long term benefits kick in much sooner), but I believe it's been implied you can't do that.

There is a general feat that can grant a 1st-level ancestry feat.


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CorvusMask wrote:

Umm, this version of Orc Ferocity wouldn't make sense as free action.

Mainly because wouldn't that make it impossible to kill orcs since they always return to 1 hp when damage would reduce them to 0? This basically means that once per round you can ignore one hit and remain at 1 hp

It's limited to "Frequency: Once per day", so this is a non-issue. I'd agree, having it as a free action makes a lot more sense. It should kick in whenever a player is dropped, whether or not they have the action economy for it..


MerlinCross wrote:
So can I take Half Drow and Half Tiefling later to make the ultimate edge?

I think you’d be able to take Elf, the Tiefling Heritage, and just pick Drow options under Elf? Not sure.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:

The 'FEAT' loses the Heritage trait when taken a second time, meaning it is just an ancestry feat the second time. Otherwise, if it still had the 'HERITAGE' trait, it would be limited to being selected once at 1st level only.

Kind of weak indirect rationale, might as well just say "you can take this twice".


Unicore wrote:
Quote:
Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.
I don't understand the value of losing the heritage trait. Heritage traits can only be selected at level 1 right? But you'd already have to have this feat as your heritage feat to spend a second feat on it, so it doesn't open up a new heritage feat option. Am I missing something as to why this is a necessary feature of the feat?

It just means that if you take the feat a second time later on you have all the listed advantages - losing the heritage trait just means you can pick it (again) after lvl 1


MerlinCross wrote:
So can I take Half Drow and Half Tiefling later to make the ultimate edge?

I'm guessing 'Half-Tiefling' would just be called 'tiefling', and it would be built on a Heritage feat that any ancestry can choose. So you can be a Dwarf, with the Tiefling heritage - for instance.

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Now, if you can spend General Feats to grab Ancestry Feats it starts looking much better (since the long term benefits kick in much sooner), but I believe it's been implied you can't do that.
There is a general feat that can grant a 1st-level ancestry feat.

That helps a whole lot mechanically, to the point of it probably being a solid mechanical choice for many characters in the long run.

I'm sadly not sure it really helps the gut level reaction thing I went into in my last post, though.


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Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

But look at it from another perspective.

What if were a sub-class of wizard who had fewer spells known at 1st, and was able to cast fewer spells at first.

But from level 2 on, their progression was identical to a Wizard in these two areas, with the added distinction of being able to choose their spells from the Druid spell list as well.

You're trading a bit of front-end power for increased power and flexibility later.

Which kind of even fits the 'half-breed' lore. Tough upbringing, but that same upbringing only hardened them, allowing them to be more successful later in life.


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Quandary wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The 'FEAT' loses the Heritage trait when taken a second time, meaning it is just an ancestry feat the second time. Otherwise, if it still had the 'HERITAGE' trait, it would be limited to being selected once at 1st level only.

Kind of weak indirect rationale, might as well just say "you can take this twice".

It has to do with them standardizing terms in the game. Just about everything is ether a 'FEAT' or a 'SPELL'. Those feats and spells can have any number of 'TRAITS' assigned to them - HERITAGE just happens to be one of those traits, applied to a feat (that also has the ANCESTRY trait), that limits it to being selected at 1st level only.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


Now, if you can spend General Feats to grab Ancestry Feats it starts looking much better (since the long term benefits kick in much sooner), but I believe it's been implied you can't do that.
There is a general feat that can grant a 1st-level ancestry feat.

That helps a whole lot mechanically, to the point of it probably being a solid mechanical choice for many characters in the long run.

I'm sadly not sure it really helps the gut level reaction thing I went into in my last post, though.

Do you get a general feat at first level? If so then at least that makes the characters I want to play possible but you're right that it still feels like I'm getting punched in the gut for being so bold as to play a greenskin (other than Paizo's beloved goblins of course).

Dark Archive

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TheFinish wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Umm, this version of Orc Ferocity wouldn't make sense as free action.

Mainly because wouldn't that make it impossible to kill orcs since they always return to 1 hp when damage would reduce them to 0? This basically means that once per round you can ignore one hit and remain at 1 hp

Read it again, it can only be triggered 1/day. Just like PF1 version.

Ah yeah missed a line. So nevermind on that point.

Anyhoo, I don't really mind the half races becoming ancestry feat chains. Mostly because I don't really see feats as "lesser" things and have always liked weird quirky chains like possessed hand chain. That and half elves and half orcs were mechanically kind of human variations anyway(since all three of them share the +2 to one stat thing and such, they weren't really ever mechanically radically different, so you could use ancestry feats to create mechanically same thing as 1e half elf or half orc anyway)

Liberty's Edge

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Do you get a general feat at first level? If so then at least that makes the characters I want to play possible but you're right that it still feels like I'm getting punched in the gut for being so bold as to play a greenskin (other than Paizo's beloved goblins of course).

You do not. The fact that you do not is one of the several reasons I've been advocating a second Ancestry Feat at 1st.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:


The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.

I think the problem is that Half-Elves/Orcs have to pay for (some) baseline abilities, leaving them one feat behind in return for future flexibility. Does giving everyone else an extra feat and leaving the Half races still a feat behind make sense? Especially if Humans are buying two bonus feats (general and class) at that level, and who knows how powerful some of the other options might be.


Justin Franklin wrote:
So does this open up the possibility that you are a dwarf with the half-orc ancestry feat? Or an Elf aasimar, etc?

My guess is this opens it up in later products. Doubt those would be options in the CRB. The mechanic certainly does provide for a lot of design space for insteresting options. (Bastards of Golarion - a great book - could be promoted to a hardcover with this system).


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Also would be much 'cleaner' if 'Orc' was an actual race in the game

Why would you assume Full Orcs are not "an actual race in the game"? They are in P1E.

Other poster (Arachnofiend) claimed they are not "playable" yet the rules text says nothing of sort:
PRD wrote:

Orc Characters

Orcs are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All orcs have the following racial traits.

+4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Orcs are brutal and savage.[...]

There is NOTHING suggesting they are not playable. They give all material needed for "Orc characters", as opposed to "monsters" with monster stats. I see no reason to believe P2E will not give equivalent treatment. Same for Goblins if they end up not being in CRB.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.
I think the problem is that Half-Elves/Orcs have to pay for (some) baseline abilities, leaving them one feat behind in return for future flexibility. Does giving everyone else an extra feat and leaving the Half races still a feat behind make sense? Especially if Humans are buying two bonus feats (general and class) at that level, and who knows how powerful some of the other options might be.

In 1e, Humans gave up a feat to be a half-elf or half-orc as well.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I've had a couple of characters whose parents were a half-orc and a half-elf, so how do I handle that? However I do it, it's probably better than the PF1 version of "pick one parent to take after."

I guess you could just make an elf and add the half orc heritage feat?


Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

But look at it from another perspective.

What if were a sub-class of wizard who had fewer spells known at 1st, and was able to cast fewer spells at first.

But from level 2 on, their progression was identical to a Wizard in these two areas, with the added distinction of being able to choose their spells from the Druid spell list as well.

I think you meant you can pick one Druid spell at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 in return for permanently stunted spell progression at your highest level.


Gabby the Ferocious wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
I'd agree with what others have said, perhaps 2 race feats at first level, one of which must be a heritage feat.
For the record, as one person advocating two Ancestry Feats at 1st level, I wouldn't restrict it like this. I might say no more than one Heritage Feat (though I'm not sure how much of an issue this is), but I certainly wouldn't make a Heritage Feat mandatory.
Yeah. Same. Forcing everybody to be a half race would be sooo weird.

To clarify, not all heritage feats are going to change your race as profoundly as the half-elf and half-orc ones do. I was not suggesting everyone plays a half race. I believe there was only one heritage feat for gnomes and I think it just gave you a better sense of smell.

You would have "vanilla" heritage feats as well, which include things like your cultural upbringing. For humans, a heritage could include Shoanti, Chelaxian, or Varisian, for example. A goblin's heritage feat might dictate if he came from one of these new peaceful tribes or if he was evicted from a more classically evil tribe.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Quandary wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The 'FEAT' loses the Heritage trait when taken a second time, meaning it is just an ancestry feat the second time. Otherwise, if it still had the 'HERITAGE' trait, it would be limited to being selected once at 1st level only.

Kind of weak indirect rationale, might as well just say "you can take this twice".
It has to do with them standardizing terms in the game. Just about everything is ether a 'FEAT' or a 'SPELL'. Those feats and spells can have any number of 'TRAITS' assigned to them - HERITAGE just happens to be one of those traits, applied to a feat (that also has the ANCESTRY trait), that limits it to being selected at 1st level only.

Missing the point. They are making exception to Feat. This exception can just say "you can take it twice". Or they can make exception "the Feat loses this trait if you take it twice" leading to removal of restriction on taking it twice. Both are exceptions. Why not just directly state the exception you are aiming for?


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Do you get a general feat at first level? If so then at least that makes the characters I want to play possible but you're right that it still feels like I'm getting punched in the gut for being so bold as to play a greenskin (other than Paizo's beloved goblins of course).
You do not. The fact that you do not is one of the several reasons I've been advocating a second Ancestry Feat at 1st.

All right, this is completely irredeemable then.

As for the people pretending you can play an orc, I can tell none of you have ever actually had any interest in playing an orc. They're illegal in PFS and I cannot even begin to number how many game applications I've seen that call for "all ARG except orcs".


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Thinking about it, where is our "Half-Human" Heritage feat for Elves/Orcs? ;P


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Im not sure 2 ancestry feats is the answer since some options would be too powerful (humans with both general training and natural ambition seems strong), but what about geting 1 ancestry feat and 1 heritage feat at level 1. That way hybrid races can have their cake and eat them while ancestries like dwarves do t have to choose between being resistant to poison and having a clan dagger.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.
I think the problem is that Half-Elves/Orcs have to pay for (some) baseline abilities, leaving them one feat behind in return for future flexibility. Does giving everyone else an extra feat and leaving the Half races still a feat behind make sense? Especially if Humans are buying two bonus feats (general and class) at that level, and who knows how powerful some of the other options might be.
In 1e, Humans gave up a feat to be a half-elf or half-orc as well.

This is a false equivalence. By this logic, Half-Elves gave up a feat to be Humans... Namely, Skill Focus. So yeah, I can make the exact opposite argument. The fact is, the half- races are forced into a particular feat at first level in 2e whereas every other race gets to select the feat they want...


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.
I think the problem is that Half-Elves/Orcs have to pay for (some) baseline abilities, leaving them one feat behind in return for future flexibility. Does giving everyone else an extra feat and leaving the Half races still a feat behind make sense? Especially if Humans are buying two bonus feats (general and class) at that level, and who knows how powerful some of the other options might be.
In 1e, Humans gave up a feat to be a half-elf or half-orc as well.

In return for immediate benefits, not a future option to pick from a broader list at levels 5/9/13/17.


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tricodelamorale wrote:
Charlie Brooks wrote:
I'm now curious if traditional monstrous subraces, such as drow and duergar, will get this treatment and become heritage feats.
I guess you could just make an elf and add the half orc heritage feat?

Well, not in the playtest, as the Half-Orc heritage feat has the Human trait (meaning only humans can take it). I would certainly like to see this changed to 'Orc-blooded' - keep the Heritage trait, but lose the Human trait.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

But look at it from another perspective.

What if were a sub-class of wizard who had fewer spells known at 1st, and was able to cast fewer spells at first.

But from level 2 on, their progression was identical to a Wizard in these two areas, with the added distinction of being able to choose their spells from the Druid spell list as well.

I think you meant you can pick one Druid spell at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 in return for permanently stunted spell progression at your highest level.

Nope, meant what I typed. Post-level-1, half-breeds get the same feat progression as everyone else. All that's required is to choose a specific feat at 1st, which is more powerful than other feats in the category, and still contains some flexibility.

In exchange, you can go full power-gamer and cherry pick feats from 3 different categories - one of which no other race has access to.

If anything, its a strict power upgrade.


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I like the idea of this, but while mechanically strong later it seems pretty weak at level one. A half-elf can basically be on par with a full elf but functionally without a feat it seems (well, higher hitpoints I guess, which is possibly fair enough but possibly minor) while the elf gets something extra.

If it were, as has been mentioned, 2 ancestry feats at 1, only one of which can be heritage, then I think it would be great though.

I am curious if we have enough orc feats to functionally build an orc race though. Take a blank slate, apply the two levels of half-orc feat to it, take away any skills if granted, then give +2 to a physical stat, +2 to a mental (probably wis?), and -2 to a mental (int or cha. My preference would be for cha as I hate the whole -int on orcs thing, but int might fit lore better. That said, I can possibly see the goblin route of mentals at +2 cha, -2 wis fitting and I'd be up for that).


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Xenocrat wrote:
lordcirth wrote:
So, this all looks awesome except *one* thing. Orc Ferocity should not be a reaction. Really, I stop being tough if I took an attack of opportunity in the last 6 seconds? It should be a free action, even if it's triggered like a reaction might be.
Disagree. This allows you to survive and remain conscious after taking an infinitely large amount of HP damage. Requiring you to keep a reaction in reserve isn't too much of a cost for that sort of "LOL, not in my house" ability.

I'm not sure if you strictly need to "keep Reaction in reserve" to be able to use it. The difference might just be needing to wait until your turn comes up for Reaction to reset, and then using the ability. AFAIK the trigger doesn't require it is IMMEDIATELY used, simply fulfilling "you are reduced to 0 hp" (and dying etc no longer functions on negative HPs, so you still are at 0 hp even if you don't use it immediately). Now, using it immediately is probably BEST usage of it, since if you don't you will orobably fall and maybe drop weapon etc, but I believe it still would be usable later if you couldn't do so immediately due to having spent Reaction. Which IMHO is reasonable functionality. I don't think players will really play fixated on "holding Reaction in reserve", and they shouldn't, but it just works best when you haven't yet triggered Reaction which is reasonable for very strong effect.


Xenocrat wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.
I think the problem is that Half-Elves/Orcs have to pay for (some) baseline abilities, leaving them one feat behind in return for future flexibility. Does giving everyone else an extra feat and leaving the Half races still a feat behind make sense? Especially if Humans are buying two bonus feats (general and class) at that level, and who knows how powerful some of the other options might be.
In 1e, Humans gave up a feat to be a half-elf or half-orc as well.
In return for immediate benefits, not a future option to pick from a broader list at levels 5/9/13/17.
You mean immediate benefits like those listed in the Half-elf feat?
HALF-ELF (Heritage, Human) FEAT 1 wrote:
elven speed, elven tongue, gifted speaker, or low-light vision


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Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

But look at it from another perspective.

What if were a sub-class of wizard who had fewer spells known at 1st, and was able to cast fewer spells at first.

But from level 2 on, their progression was identical to a Wizard in these two areas, with the added distinction of being able to choose their spells from the Druid spell list as well.

I think you meant you can pick one Druid spell at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 in return for permanently stunted spell progression at your highest level.

Nope, meant what I typed. Post-level-1, half-breeds get the same feat progression as everyone else. All that's required is to choose a specific feat at 1st, which is more powerful than other feats in the category, and still contains some flexibility.

In exchange, you can go full power-gamer and cherry pick feats from 3 different categories - one of which no other race has access to.

If anything, its a strict power upgrade.

Give me $1000 today and I'll give you $2000 in 30 years, it's a strict financial upgrade.

And the Half-Elf feat is not more powerful than other feats the same category. That feat buys 2 out of 4 options. Elves get three of those for free, plus a whole other feat.

Liberty's Edge

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Arachnofiend wrote:
All right, this is completely irredeemable then.

There are certainly issues. They seem fixable to me, though.

Arachnofiend wrote:
As for the people pretending you can play an orc, I can tell none of you have ever actually had any interest in playing an orc. They're illegal in PFS and I cannot even begin to number how many game applications I've seen that call for "all ARG except orcs".

This is true in PF1. It actually might not be in PF2. Based on the fact that Half Orcs can take Orc Ancestry Feats, there needs to be an Orc Ancestry Feat list, and probably in the core rulebook. If there's that...there may well be an Orc Ancestry somewhere (since Feats are like 90% of an Ancestry's wordcount).

I certainly don't know if that's true, but the idea of Orcs being an Ancestry in the corebook isn't completely far fetched.


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I feel like a lot of the issues I have with this could be resolved by addressing "you should probably get more than 2 ancestry feats in the first 5 levels". It makes sense for "Half-Elf" to compete with like "the extra human feat" as an opportunity cost, but spending a heritage feat so you can take ancestry feats from a different list very infrequently isn't especially satisfying.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
So can I take Half Drow and Half Tiefling later to make the ultimate edge?

Heritage Feat: Play Linking Park all the time.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All right, this is completely irredeemable then.

There are certainly issues. They seem fixable to me, though.

Arachnofiend wrote:
As for the people pretending you can play an orc, I can tell none of you have ever actually had any interest in playing an orc. They're illegal in PFS and I cannot even begin to number how many game applications I've seen that call for "all ARG except orcs".

This is true in PF1. It actually might not be in PF2. Based on the fact that Half Orcs can take Orc Ancestry Feats, there needs to be an Orc Ancestry Feat list, and probably in the core rulebook. If there's that...there may well be an Orc Ancestry somewhere (since Feats are like 90% of an Ancestry's wordcount).

I certainly don't know if that's true, but the idea of Orcs being an Ancestry in the corebook isn't completely far fetched.

To be fair, based on the population of Golarion, the idea of Orc and Kobold NOT being ancestries in the corebook - and goblins being included - is pretty laughable.


Xenocrat wrote:
Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

But look at it from another perspective.

What if were a sub-class of wizard who had fewer spells known at 1st, and was able to cast fewer spells at first.

But from level 2 on, their progression was identical to a Wizard in these two areas, with the added distinction of being able to choose their spells from the Druid spell list as well.

I think you meant you can pick one Druid spell at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 in return for permanently stunted spell progression at your highest level.

Nope, meant what I typed. Post-level-1, half-breeds get the same feat progression as everyone else. All that's required is to choose a specific feat at 1st, which is more powerful than other feats in the category, and still contains some flexibility.

In exchange, you can go full power-gamer and cherry pick feats from 3 different categories - one of which no other race has access to.

If anything, its a strict power upgrade.

Give me $1000 today and I'll give you $2000 in 30 years, it's a strict financial upgrade.

And the Half-Elf feat is not more powerful than other feats the same category. That feat buys 2 out of 4 options. Elves get three of those for free, plus a whole other feat.

That's absolutely correct. $2000 is greater than $1000.

And you don't even have to wait 30 years. You get a better feat than elves at 1st level - and it gets better from there in 4 more levels.

You do realize that the feat's abilities are tacked on to what humans (or dwarves, or whatever you want to crossbreed with) already get, right? Even the developer agrees its more powerful.

Designer

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Xenocrat wrote:
Sgtdrill wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:

If I'm not mistaken elves get low light vision, 30' speed, Elf language, AND a ancestry feat at 1st level.

A half-elf...can choose two of those three, with the option to pick Diplomacy instead, and in the (distant) future has a broader array of choices, but does NOT get a separate feat at 1st level.

That's pretty terrible!

But look at it from another perspective.

What if were a sub-class of wizard who had fewer spells known at 1st, and was able to cast fewer spells at first.

But from level 2 on, their progression was identical to a Wizard in these two areas, with the added distinction of being able to choose their spells from the Druid spell list as well.

I think you meant you can pick one Druid spell at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17 in return for permanently stunted spell progression at your highest level.

I don't think either analogy is quite apt, as your highest level spells are your best spells, but typically you take the best feats you can first, so later picks wind up being either ones you couldn't take yet, or ones that aren't as good or important as the earlier pick (since you chose not to pick them then).

There can't be a perfect analogy with spells because you can never cover the fact that, at some point in choosing ancestry feats as a human who didn't take a heritage at 1st to get a class feat right away, you will reach a point where for your character, you mechanically would have retroactively desired the heritage more than your third or fourth or fifth-favorite human feat (and perhaps even more so would desire your #1 elf or half-elf feat once you had it). For instance, let's suppose that for a given character, you really really wanted Natural Ambition for the class feat but you would probably want extra move speed and low-light vision next after that. Then that point for you is level 5.

But the real crux is that this isn't about the mechanical advantage of these feats for most people, I think; it seems like its focused more on concept-building based on the examples in this thread: like the example given of weapon training to get a weapon that's part of the concept from 1st level.

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