Born of Two Worlds

Tuesday, July 24, 2018

As some of you have no doubt noticed, we haven't said much about half-elves and half-orcs except to confirm that they'll be part of the Pathfinder Playtest. Of all of the ancestry choices in Pathfinder, these were two of the trickiest to design. With the way that the feats are structured, it would be easy enough to just list the feats from both parents (plus some unique options), but that quickly led to cherry-picking the best of both. Moreover, that approach didn't address the base statistics of the ancestry that are very important to overall balance, such as starting hit points and speed.

In the end, we decided to make both half-elves and half-orcs an addition to the human ancestry. You start by selecting human, then take the corresponding heritage feat to represent your diverse ancestry. Let's take a look at the half-elf feat.

Half-Elf Feat 1

Heritage, Human

Either one of your parents was an elf, or one or both were half-elves. You have pointed ears and other telltale signs of elven heritage. You gain the elf trait. Select two of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light). In addition, you can select elf, half-elf, and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

This approach comes with a number of advantages. First off, it lets us make a half-elf that truly does have some of the advantages of both ancestries, while still allowing you to pick the parts that you think best represent your character's upbringing. Grew up among elves? Then picking up the Elven language makes sense. Had to explain yourself to the humans you grew up with? Then being trained in Diplomacy might be the way to go. As with all of our ancestries, we wanted the choice of being a half-elf or half-orc to be meaningful to your character and expressive of the backstory that you've decided to create. This ancestry feat gives a lot of benefits; to get similar benefits, you would normally use a general feat to pick up Adoptive Ancestry, which grants you access to the ancestry feats from another ancestry (as long as they don't have physiological requirements) to represent your deep connection to another ancestry's culture and traditions. However, being a half-elf gives you access to human feats, elf feats, and half-elf feats (including feats with physiological components), as well as two additional benefits.

At this point, you might be saying, wait, what about humans in general? Let's take a look at some of their options. At its core, human is a very flexible ancestry, with choices like Natural Ambition to gain an extra 1st-level class feat, General Training to gain an extra 1st-level general feat, and Skilled to gain training in two additional skills. However, humans also have fun options for particular builds, like this one for a character who wants to reduce the penalties for being untrained.

Clever Improviser Feat 1

Human

You've learned how to handle situations where you're out of your depth. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for skills in which you're untrained.

Of course, this approach for half-elves and half-orcs means that we needed to include a few orc feats in the book so players would get the complete experience of being a half-orc. Take a look at this classic feat.

[[R]] Orc Ferocity Feat 1

Orc

Frequency once per day

Trigger You're reduced to 0 Hit Points.


Fierceness in battle runs through your blood, and you refuse to fall from your injuries. When this feat is triggered, you avoid being knocked out and remain at 1 Hit Point.

This allows the half-orc to stay in the fight after taking a felling blow, even a really big hit or a critically failed save against a dragon's breath attack!

In addition to allowing you to choose any feat from both ancestries, we were also able to design a few ancestry feats specifically for half-elves and half-orcs. Take a look at this half-elf feat.

Inspire Imitation Feat 5

Half-Elf

You inspire your allies to great feats through your own actions. Whenever you critically succeed at a skill check, you automatically qualify to take the Aid reaction when attempting to help an ally at the same skill check, even without spending an action to prepare to do so.

This means that when you critically succeed, you can Aid your ally at no extra cost to yourself, which is particularly useful if your ally needs some help doing something at which you excel.

Beyond what this means for half-elves and half-orcs, using an ancestry feat to unlock a more diverse heritage gives us a lot of options for the future. For instance, aasimars, tieflings, and other planar scions come from a wide variety of ancestries in Golarion, instead of just defaulting to human. In Pathfinder First Edition, there's a sidebar to that effect, but it provides no mechanical adjustments for non-human planar scions beyond their size category. The playtest treatment would allow you to build a character whose ancestry really reflects their combined heritage. And if your setting has half-elves and half-orcs where the other parent isn't human, say half-orc/half-dwarf characters, you can just allow the half-orc feat for dwarf characters and the rest of the work is already taken care of. This also opens up a lot of design space (in the form of feats) to explore what otherworldly parentage might mean, giving you different options based on what type of outsider has influenced your heritage, similar to the popular subcategories of aasimar and tieflings (pitborn, musetouched, and so on). Having a solar in the family might grant access to entirely different feats than if your ancestors were blessed by a hound archon.

Now, this approach is a little different than what we've done in the past, so we are going to be asking a few questions about this through surveys during the playtest. We're keen to hear what you think about half-elves and half-orcs in the playtest. Why not roll one up and give it a try?

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Lol Yeah I know I know I was just having some fun with ya.
I can never be sure with you... :P

That's how I like it.


graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
You have to start out with a class (level 1) in order to MULTIclass (level 2, minimum). If that doesn't make sense to you I'm not sure how it can be explained more simply.
Please explain why having 2 classes at 1st level doesn't mean you have multiple classes at once? You talk about simple, but you seem to have missed that very simple concept. MultiCLASS isn't defined by multiLEVELS.

I'll try again, that's dual-classing*. We're back to AD&D again.

Multi-classing since D&D 3.0, the original foundation Pathfinder continues from, has been that you start in one class and then add another level in a second class (or third) when you level up. Hence why the multi-class dedication feats are level 2 feats.
I'm sure you actually do understand this, so I don't see why you continue being pedantic.

EDIT: * My bad, I actually got the terminology turned around for AD&D. Starting out with two (or three) classes in AD&D was actually called multi-classing. What we know as multi-classing now (starting in one class, then switching to another - also had a stat requirement) was called dual-classing and was only available to humans. You also stopped advancing in the previous class once you switched and couldn't advance in it again.
There were also a lot restrictions or disadvantages. AD&D multi-classing had you split your XP evenly among the classes you had, dual-classing had you earn half XP in an encounter if you used your previous class' abilities and you didn't advance in HD and such things until you had advanced to your previous class level +1.


Oh I see. So what your saying is dual classing basically Gestalting but with more xp required multiclassing is what you do in PF1.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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graystone wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:
You have to start out with a class (level 1) in order to MULTIclass (level 2, minimum). If that doesn't make sense to you I'm not sure how it can be explained more simply.
Please explain why having 2 classes at 1st level doesn't mean you have multiple classes at once? You talk about simple, but you seem to have missed that very simple concept. MultiCLASS isn't defined by multiLEVELS.

On top of that... why does it matter what PF1 did, or AD&D did, or anything else? It already doesn't work like it used to, so "it worked this way in PF1" isn't really a factor.

It could work in such a way that people can play "dual-classed" characters. Why doesn't it? Why shouldn't it?

Liberty's Edge

A Half-elf can start with a +2 in CON rather than a -2. And get the same speed as an Elf. That sounds rather good to me.

I dislike the idea of creating full ancestry pages for each half-x. I feel that it should be pretty easy to make any x-y hybrid with a feat like

HALF-X, HALF-Y FEAT 1

Heritage, Ancestry X

Either one of your parents was an ancestry Y, or one or both were half-X, half-Y. You have telltale signs of Y heritage. You gain the Y trait. Select two of the following benefits: Y benefit A, Y benefit B, specific benefit C, or Y benefit D. In addition, you can select Y, half-X half-Y, and X feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.


I feel like half-x feats are inevitable because they're not going to print outsider feats or hag feats (or outsider hag feats) when it comes time to do aasimar, tieflings, changelings, etc.


graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
General Feats seem to be the ones you can use for almost anything (they can also be used for Skill Feats), so I'm not sure this means much.

I have to imagine that moving from a specialized list with limited access to a general "use for almost anything" means the ceiling is much, much, much lower.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And the Ancestry Feats we've heard of (including the whole Gnome list) all seem pretty solid.

I was hoping for unique and special and that not something you say about something you pick up with something called "general".

KingOfAnything wrote:
You can only spend General feats for level 1 Ancestry feats, as I recall. Higher level ancestry feats can still be awesome.
I haven't heard any of this so I have no way to judge how right/wrong it is.

The whole "general feat" thing is like this:

At first level you may select a vegetable, a meat, and a plate.
At second and fourth level you may select a grain and a plate.
At fifth level you may take a free food from any category (but not a plate).
At ninth level you may select another vegetable.

The existence of the "take a free food" option doesn't make vegetables less special, it just lets some players have two vegetables and some have three.


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Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

Liberty's Edge

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Voss wrote:

Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

General Feats seem usable for 1st level Ancestry Feats (which is the vast majority at the moment...8/10 for Gnomes, for example) with a specific General Feat that gives you one (and you may only be able to take once, we don't know), and can be used for Skill Feats, as well as being the only Feats that can get you General Feats.

They cannot be used for Class Feats.

As for 'why', I imagine specific mechanical balance concerns govern that, but will need to see the book to see exactly what they are. Off the top of my head, I'd guess that it allows them to make both specifically General Feats and Class Feats more powerful because you have specific and defined numbers of them you can ever possibly acquire.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voss wrote:

Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

General Feats seem usable for 1st level Ancestry Feats (which is the vast majority at the moment...8/10 for Gnomes, for example) with a specific General Feat that gives you one (and you may only be able to take once, we don't know), and can be used for Skill Feats, as well as being the only Feats that can get you General Feats.

They cannot be used for Class Feats.

A human could use their 3rd level General Feat to take a 1st level human Ancestral Feat, which could be Natural Ambition, that grants a Class Feat. If that Class Feat isn't itself level locked to 1st then you could presumably get a leg up on multiclassing compared to other ancestries.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voss wrote:

Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

General Feats seem usable for 1st level Ancestry Feats (which is the vast majority at the moment...8/10 for Gnomes, for example) with a specific General Feat that gives you one (and you may only be able to take once, we don't know), and can be used for Skill Feats, as well as being the only Feats that can get you General Feats.

They cannot be used for Class Feats.

A human could use their 3rd level General Feat to take a 1st level human Ancestral Feat, which could be Natural Ambition, that grants a Class Feat. If that Class Feat isn't itself level locked to 1st then you could presumably get a leg up on multiclassing compared to other ancestries.

Maybe, but aren't certain Ancestry Feats (Heritage?) limited to being taken at 1st Level? If so (and that Feat is affected), there's no need to impose any extraneous rules regarding its use.

Liberty's Edge

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Xenocrat wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voss wrote:

Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

General Feats seem usable for 1st level Ancestry Feats (which is the vast majority at the moment...8/10 for Gnomes, for example) with a specific General Feat that gives you one (and you may only be able to take once, we don't know), and can be used for Skill Feats, as well as being the only Feats that can get you General Feats.

They cannot be used for Class Feats.

A human could use their 3rd level General Feat to take a 1st level human Ancestral Feat, which could be Natural Ambition, that grants a Class Feat. If that Class Feat isn't itself level locked to 1st then you could presumably get a leg up on multiclassing compared to other ancestries.

This Feat can only be taken once, and only grants 1st level Class Feats. It is very specific and limited, as well as being Human specific.


Voss wrote:

Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

WHAT!?!? I loved the food analogy!

Liberty's Edge

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So my initial reaction to this was "meh, I've seen it before in other systems", but then I remembered that you get more ancestry feats as you level up, and suddenly this becomes very interesting.

Now as a player you can determine how human and how orcish/elven you are.
And then taking into account the growing number of half-human races (aasimar, tiefling, dhampir, etc.) you can really customize your character such that your race feels like a larger part of your overall build.

Very much looking forward to how the ancestry feats will shake out now.

Silver Crusade

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
If they statted them up like the other ancestries, and the only had access to the half-elf feats, would you be okay with that?

Honestly... yes.

I thought about this last night. Of all the things I consider "special" about half-elves, access to parent ancestries' feats wasn't very high on the list. I'd rather see half-elf as its own ancestry, with an option that lets them access one or both parents' list, than have to pay up front for the privilege of accessing feats I might neither need nor want. Same goes for half-orcs, tieflings, changelings, and everything else... I want to be this thing first and foremost, and have an option to expand into my other heritages.

Yeah, I have to agree with this entirely. Getting both lists (well, all three technically) is a very good thing mechanically, but it isn't one I actually care much about.

Thirded very much.

(sorry for taking so long to respond, I was away from the forums over the weekend)

Liberty's Edge

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I am happy that strong feelings and debates about the blog posts end up in finding solutions that can be agreeable to many people

And that is happening even before the playtest begins

I think this bodes extremely well for PF2 becoming a great game

Verdant Wheel

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Voss wrote:

Can you explain that again but use the actual feat categories rather than a confusing food analogy?

Just... what restrictions does a general feat have? Why would 'general' *have* restrictions?

WHAT!?!? I loved the food analogy!

Ok: Here is your cake. And now I have to ask you to leave.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm not fond of this solution to balancing half-elves and half-orcs with the other races. Even if the Heritage feat is more powerful than other stand alone heritage feats, it seems like a loss of customization, a taking away of a choice.

I wonder why instead of giving them the standard human 2 floating attribute bonuses they gave them one floating and one fixed instead? This would keep them similar to humans while lowering their flexibility somewhat, perhaps enough to balance things out? Half-elves getting a +2 to Charisma and one +2 floating and Half-orcs getting a +2 to Strength and one =2 floating would keep a connection with what they were in the past while remaining balanced with the other races in ability stats.

This doesn't mean that heritage feats of the sort mentioned couldn't exist; they just would be enhancements that would allow a certain amount of gnomishness of elvishness in other races. It would also allow for certain ancestral heritages like angel or azata for aasimars and Daemon and demon for teiflings, adjusting the feel of the race a little.

Just some thoughts. I will still check out the playtest rules as written, but if after the playtest closes I try this and it works, I may just houserule it.

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