Born of Two Worlds

Arachnofiend wrote:

All right, this is completely irredeemable then.

There are certainly issues. They seem fixable to me, though.

Arachnofiend wrote:

As for the people pretending you can play an orc, I can tell none of you have ever actually had any interest in playing an orc. They're illegal in PFS and I cannot even begin to number how many game applications I've seen that call for "all ARG except orcs".

This is true in PF1. It actually might not be in PF2. Based on the fact that Half Orcs can take Orc Ancestry Feats, there needs to be an Orc Ancestry Feat list, and probably in the core rulebook. If there's that...there may well be an Orc Ancestry somewhere (since Feats are like 90% of an Ancestry's wordcount).

I certainly don't know if that's true, but the idea of Orcs being an Ancestry in the corebook isn't completely far fetched.

If orcs were going to be a core ancestry they would have been advertised as such alongside goblins. They'll be shunted off into the bestiary with a little blurb describing them as irredeemably evil gorilla-men and then six years later there'll be a small book with a couple paragraph about a few orcs who were okay, I guess.

Also, anything which steers my group away from having two players per campaign pick Aasimar, because they get better bonuses than other races, can only be good.

Please make the Aasimar balanced this time, guys.

Im not sure 2 ancestry feats is the answer since some options would be too powerful (humans with both general training and natural ambition seems strong), but what about geting 1 ancestry feat and 1 heritage feat at level 1. That way hybrid races can have their cake and eat them while ancestries like dwarves do t have to choose between being resistant to poison and having a clan dagger.

I'm torn between this and a floating feat choice for the second feat. On one hand you can tweak the races more without too much option-paralysis, on the other you can open up for more varied starts (And Archetypes that change classes from the get-go).

Xenocrat wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The more I think about this the less happy I am about it. Two Ancestry Feats at 1st solve the mechanical issue, but I'm not sure they do much of anything for the gut level one.

I think the problem is that Half-Elves/Orcs have to pay for (some) baseline abilities, leaving them one feat behind in return for future flexibility. Does giving everyone else an extra feat and leaving the Half races still a feat behind make sense? Especially if Humans are buying two bonus feats (general and class) at that level, and who knows how powerful some of the other options might be.

In 1e, Humans gave up a feat to be a half-elf or half-orc as well.

In return for immediate benefits, not a future option to pick from a broader list at levels 5/9/13/17.

You mean immediate benefits like those listed in the Half-elf feat?

HALF-ELF (Heritage, Human) FEAT 1 wrote:

elven speed, elven tongue, gifted speaker, or low-light vision

Wow, it's become clear why there is so much spam in this forum on the weekends, those guys must clean up around here before the moderators save you guys from yourselves.

Yes, the immediate benefit of giving up your human feat is to become an elf without all of the base elf abilities and without their elf feat. Quite the benefit.

CraziFuzzy wrote:

You mean immediate benefits like those listed in the Half-elf feat?

HALF-ELF (Heritage, Human) FEAT 1 wrote:

elven speed, elven tongue, gifted speaker, or low-light vision

Wow, it's become clear why there is so much spam in this forum on the weekends, those guys must clean up around here before the moderators save you guys from yourselves.

Yes, the immediate benefit of giving up your human feat is to become an elf without all of the base elf abilities and without their elf feat. Quite the benefit.

Isn't that what Half-elf always has been?

Wow, it's become clear why there is so much spam in this forum on the weekends, those guys must clean up around here before the moderators save you guys from yourselves.

Yes, the immediate benefit of giving up your human feat is to become an elf without all of the base elf abilities and without their elf feat. Quite the benefit.

Given that we're all extrapolating from incomplete data - as in, none of us have played it yet - maybe one should keep an open mind.

And yes, I include myself in that. Maybe, despite what I think, it really will suck.

Xenocrat wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

You mean immediate benefits like those listed in the Half-elf feat?

HALF-ELF (Heritage, Human) FEAT 1 wrote:

elven speed, elven tongue, gifted speaker, or low-light vision

Wow, it's become clear why there is so much spam in this forum on the weekends, those guys must clean up around here before the moderators save you guys from yourselves.

Yes, the immediate benefit of giving up your human feat is to become an elf without all of the base elf abilities and without their elf feat. Quite the benefit.

Isn't that what Half-elf always has been?

Not with Ancestral Arms and Paragon Surge.

Xenocrat wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

You mean immediate benefits like those listed in the Half-elf feat?

HALF-ELF (Heritage, Human) FEAT 1 wrote:

elven speed, elven tongue, gifted speaker, or low-light vision

Wow, it's become clear why there is so much spam in this forum on the weekends, those guys must clean up around here before the moderators save you guys from yourselves.

Yes, the immediate benefit of giving up your human feat is to become an elf without all of the base elf abilities and without their elf feat. Quite the benefit.

Isn't that what Half-elf always has been?

No. I mean, you knew that already, but I figured I'd answer anyway.

So one thing I'm somewhat perplexed by is how we manage the races from PF1 that came in a bunch of different flavors? Aasimar, tieflings, and changelings came in a bunch of different varieties that didn't just change their stat boosts (though this was the main attraction usually) but also gave different SLAs and various other abilities.

If I take a heritage feat to be a Changeling, will the list of "other things you can take" have to include ten different options, one for each flavor of hag that your mom could have been?

For aasimar and tieflings I guess you could write them up as full ancestries since they aren't half-anything necessarily, but would changelings get a different treatment for being half-human because mom is a highish CR monster?

Xenocrat wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

You mean immediate benefits like those listed in the Half-elf feat?

HALF-ELF (Heritage, Human) FEAT 1 wrote:

elven speed, elven tongue, gifted speaker, or low-light vision

Wow, it's become clear why there is so much spam in this forum on the weekends, those guys must clean up around here before the moderators save you guys from yourselves.

Yes, the immediate benefit of giving up your human feat is to become an elf without all of the base elf abilities and without their elf feat. Quite the benefit.

Isn't that what Half-elf always has been?

No, in PF1 they share roughly half of the elf features and substitute some others. They don't have fewer racial features. In PF2 they have fewer ancestry features at level 1.

Hey there all,

Interesting to see many of the same debates we had internally playing out here on this issue. I want to point out that humans have a few mechanical benefits that are not shared by any other ancestry. Two floating ability score boosts with no flaw is the best in the game when it comes to build flexibility (compared to the two set boosts, one floating boost, and one flaw of the others). When you look at a feat that gives you other perks on top of that (better speed, languages, vision, or skill use), the costing really does start to even out.

As for orcs, there are a handful of Orc feats in the book to make half-orc perfectly viable. I am not sure that there is much value in debating the presentation at the moment (they are an addendum at the end of the human entry) as that is all going to change quite a bit in the final book. We will certainly be asking a number of questions during the playtest about this presentation and the way these half-ancestries are included in Pathfinder.

I think people may also be comparing things too directly with pf1e. Yes, a half-elf in pf1e had more at 1st level than a half-elf in pf2e appears to have. But with many racial abilities moving to the ancestry feat system, that's pretty much the case for ALL ancestries, full-blooded OR half. There appears to be far less mechanical difference between ALL the ancestries at 1st level than there was between pf1e races. The difference between a pf2e elf and a pf2e human at 1st level is not that drastic, and a pf2e half-elf appears to sit right between them, as would make sense.

They mention cherrypicking, then offer:

"Select two of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light)."

I like the mention of Adoptive Ancestry. Confirmed we can make especially tall dwarves!

"To dwarfs I'm a dwarf, sir. I can do the rite of k'zakra, I know the secrets of h'ragna, I can ha'lk my g'rakha correctly... I am a dwarf."

Based on the fact that Half Orcs can take Orc Ancestry Feats, there needs to be an Orc Ancestry Feat list, and probably in the core rulebook. If there's that...there may well be an Orc Ancestry somewhere (since Feats are like 90% of an Ancestry's wordcount).

Look, just based on P1E we can expect Orcs to have full "PC stats" in Bestiary, same with other races like that in P1E. Reasonably, most of these will have much smaller Ancestry Feat lists than CRB races, although it's possible some will be closer to CRB breadth with extra page in Bestiary etc.

As far as Half-Orcs, it would make alot of sense to give them full-CRB length treatment of "Orc Feats" in the CRB, since like you say those Feats are majority of Ancestry, and there would otherwise be not much content for Half-Orcs. Technically, this would no longer be an Ancestry/Race in same way, but since this would still be less content than needed for "fully discrete" Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, IMHO Paizo would be happy to put this in CRB. Technically Bestiary is de facto necessary to run game, and the larger list could be appended to Orcs there, but convenience to newbies who can just glance at CRB is obvious.

To be fair, based on the population of Golarion, the idea of Orc and Kobold NOT being ancestries in the corebook - and goblins being included - is pretty laughable.

Not really different than P1E here, where those all had "Character Stats" in Bestiary... The Bestiary in fact being "core" de facto required part of the game, simply distinct from "CRB". I am hopeful of the idea that certain entries in Bestiary would get extra material, maybe an extra page to give them fuller Ancestry Feat list, etc. With bigger Bestiary they have decided on, hopefully finding room for that sort of thing is easier.

You turned my favorite race into a Feat-Tax? Boo!

Granting additional options to pick from is only a benefit when you actually get to pick the same number of those options.

So, instead of gaining the benefits of being a human, or those of being an elf: A Human (Half-Elf) has to make-do with fewer racial features than elves start with, and functionally no heritage feat at all for four levels, with the expectation of waiting a total of at least eight levels to benefit from an opportunity cost you paid at 1st level.
You might as well be asking my 'half-elf' to punch themselves in the face every day for their entire career.

I am certain giving everyone an extra ancestry feat will not fix the problem, because the problem is that the heritage feat itself is a horrible trap! All giving us another slot will do is create extra problems while only minimally impacting the actual problem:
By default, Half-elves will recieve the benefits of their opportunity cost at 9th level, by then other Humans will have three heritage feats. Even if I believed Half-Elf Heritage was 50% better than a general feat... that still gives the 9th level human a full half-a-feat edge. Giving us more heritage feats will never change the core problem that Half-elf Heritage needs to be worth at least two heritage feats, not ome-and-a-half general feats.

Therefore, I propose Paizo add to the benefits of the Half-elf/orc heritages a bonus elf/orc heritage feat.

Xenocrat wrote:

Give me $1000 today and I'll give you $2000 in 30 years, it's a strict financial upgrade.

And the Half-Elf feat is not more powerful than other feats the same category. That feat buys 2 out of 4 options. Elves get three of those for free, plus a whole other feat.

That's absolutely correct. $2000 is greater than $1000.

And you don't even have to wait 30 years. You get a better feat than elves at 1st level - and it gets better from there in 4 more levels.

You do realize that the feat's abilities are tacked on to what humans (or dwarves, or whatever you want to crossbreed with) already get, right?

Man, I really want to sell you a financed used car. Time value of money (and feats) is a very important concept to understand.

It's not clear that Humans get anything other than +2 HP, a feat that the Half-Elf traded away, and access to the Human ancestry feat list that you can't touch until level 5.

No, that is not the case. It's a one-time feat, not one you can take again. It's in the first sentence of my post in the quote.

That is... what I said. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

What I am saying is that a human with Natural Ambition will always be one class feat ahead of a half-elf or a half-orc, which actually matters, because class feats are strong options that directly improve a character's ability to carry out their class's specialty. That trumps gaining minor, auxiliary side benefits.

One house rule I am seriously considering if the current ancestry rules are unchanged is allowing players to take 2 ancestry feats at level 1, at most one of which can be a heritage feat. Or some other wording keeping humans from being able to take both bonus feat feats.

But the real crux is that this isn't about the mechanical advantage of these feats for most people, I think; it seems like its focused more on concept-building based on the examples in this thread: like the example given of weapon training to get a weapon that's part of the concept from 1st level.

I'd say this is accurate. I'll also add that I don't love level locked options that compete with non-level locked options. In PF1 this included feats like fey foundling which you could only take at level 1. I don't mind that fey foundling dictated that you were adopted by fey per se... although it was way too powerful to be linked to such a specific background. I had a problem with the fact that you could only take it at 1st level and therefore had to not take something like Power Attack.

This is part of why I think traits were only really well implemented when they were required and campaign specific. They served a far better mechanical niche when they didn't compete with every other trait in the game.

As is, it feels weird that I can't be a falchion wielding half orc from day one. Conversely, it is also strange that if I ever want my gnome to have Discerning Smell, I have to take it at level 1 instead of Weapon Familiarity or Animal Accomplice. The gnome example feels particularly odd because I don't know why it is more of a heritage feat than First World Magic, for example.

Mark Seifter wrote:

No, that is not the case. It's a one-time feat, not one you can take again. It's in the first sentence of my post in the quote.

That is... what I said. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

What I am saying is that a human with Natural Ambition will always be one class feat ahead of a half-elf or a half-orc, which actually matters, because class feats are strong options that directly improve a character's ability to carry out their class's specialty. That trumps gaining minor, auxiliary side benefits.

To be fair, the existence of Natural Ambition is an absolutely terrible idea that ruins the whole notion of separating out ancestry feats so they don't compete with your core character features.

But the real crux is that this isn't about the mechanical advantage of these feats for most people...

Based on my experience in PFS, I would strongly disagree with this. I'll also add that in PFS, as you play higher and higher tier scenarios, the players/characters are far more mechanics focused.

I've noticed that, in PFS, there is a natural barrier about level 4. Beyond this point, the system mastery needed starts to ramp up considerably. Players who have built for concept, ignoring the underlying mechanics tend to get stressed out and simply start over with a new build. The players who continue to enjoy scenarios past 4, are typically those who have figured out some convergence in the mechanics and how to exploit it.

Paizo has put a lot of emphasis on flexibility for P2, but with that, you're steadily increasing the opportunities for players to find convergence. What's more, you make it harder and harder to anticipate the impact of future products. I think I've seen you or another designer reference this exact problem.

My point is it would be folly to throw these options out there and expect players won't systematically find a way to leverage them strictly for the mechanics. The playtest isn't going to find these all, so you need to anticipate this in the design. For example did Paizo anticipate an archer multi-classing into a Waves Oracles with Water Sight spamming Obscuring Mist?

Thinking about it, where is our "Half-Human" Heritage feat for Elves/Orcs? ;P

Honestly, if they are taking this approach, I think allowing that should be heavily considered. If doing so, it may make sense to dial back what the "Half" feat grants, since one can "cherry-pick" either side to use as "base chassis".

I think this approach (allowing "Half-Human" Feat atop Elf/Orc) also distinguishes this Race/Ancestry mechanic more, than the current set-up which Paizo is "appending to end of Human entry" (provisionally, per Jason Bulmahn). Which IMHO is un-satisfactory and confusing to people who would want to just look up info for their Full Human character. IMHO formatting this as Ancestry/Race, but clarifying they must actually select Human/Elf/Orc as chassis to modify with "Half" Feat is coherent approach that would also mollify people who don't like Half-Elves / Orcs becoming "not a real race" anymore. In fact, there should be distinct Race/Ancestry entries for BOTH Half-Orcs AND Half-Elves, with their full art allotment and fluff text and so on. With Elves being in CRB and Orcs not, the Half-Elf entry plausibly could be shorter due to sharing Elf Feats, although on the other hand since "Half-Orc" itself is more "innovative" in accessing content outside conventional purvue (Bestiary PC stats being legit but not quite typical), it could be justified in releasing more Half-Elf specific content.

Although at that point, I might ask "why not just implement them as distint classes even if you "port over" some Elf/Orc feats?" But people ask that anyways.

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Also would be much 'cleaner' if 'Orc' was an actual race in the game

Why would you assume Full Orcs are not "an actual race in the game"? They are in P1E.

Other poster (Arachnofiend) claimed they are not "playable" yet the rules text says nothing of sort:

PRD wrote:

Orc Characters

Orcs are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All orcs have the following racial traits.

+4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Orcs are brutal and savage.[...]

There is NOTHING suggesting they are not playable. They give all material needed for "Orc characters", as opposed to "monsters" with monster stats. I see no reason to believe P2E will not give equivalent treatment. Same for Goblins if they end up not being in CRB.

You should note that the "Orcs as characters" rules in the Bestiary are necessary to make any kind of orc character, because orcs don't have racial hit dice and can't exist without class levels. So if you want orc "monsters" (i.e. NPCs) you need these rules, and that is why they are there, not to make player characters. (Note that it does not say "Orcs as PCs".) Your GM might allow it, but those rules are not intended for player characters. And of course that goes for all races that have an "X as characters" section in their Bestiary entry.

CraziFuzzy wrote:

To be fair, based on the population of Golarion, the idea of Orc and Kobold NOT being ancestries in the corebook - and goblins being included - is pretty laughable.

Not really different than P1E here, where those all had "Character Stats" in Bestiary... The Bestiary in fact being "core" de facto required part of the game, simply distinct from "CRB". I am hopeful of the idea that certain entries in Bestiary would get extra material, maybe an extra page to give them fuller Ancestry Feat list, etc. With bigger Bestiary they have decided on, hopefully finding room for that sort of thing is easier.

The difference being that Goblins ARE in the CRB, while Orc and Kobolds (both seemingly much more populous) remain Bestiary status. I know that is what rubbed me sorely on the initial Goblin announcement, and this hasn't really changed anything in that regard.

I just don't like 'Game Design' decisions to be based on Marketing ideas (like the goblin being Paizo's mascot).

Sgtdrill wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Give me $1000 today and I'll give you $2000 in 30 years, it's a strict financial upgrade.

And the Half-Elf feat is not more powerful than other feats the same category. That feat buys 2 out of 4 options. Elves get three of those for free, plus a whole other feat.

That's absolutely correct. $2000 is greater than $1000.

And you don't even have to wait 30 years. You get a better feat than elves at 1st level - and it gets better from there in 4 more levels.

You do realize that the feat's abilities are tacked on to what humans (or dwarves, or whatever you want to crossbreed with) already get, right?

Man, I really want to sell you a financed used car. Time value of money (and feats) is a very important concept to understand.

It's not clear that Humans get anything other than +2 HP, a feat that the Half-Elf traded away, and access to the Human ancestry feat list that you can't touch until level 5.

There's no compound interest on feats. In fact, as higher level feats are (generally) better, one could argue its the opposite.

And half-elves would also get the flexible stat boosts.

I can totally, absolutely see what they were going for with this, making a kind of Ancestral Archetype a thing... but I have one huge misgiving with this: It completely bars halfbloods (Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, Ganzi, Aphorites and Duskwalkers from Planar Adventures, any of the Elemental-kin, Changelings, Skinwalkers, Dhampir... some of these are far and away my favorite races so I'm personally invested in this) from ever getting any kind of Heritage feats of their own, because Heritage feats can as we know only be taken at first level, and, well, simply playing a Halfblood takes your level 1 Ancestry feat. And according to the Ancestry blog Heritage traits are where you get things like physical features or inherent magic. So, just looking at some of the things in PF1e that this would render completely impossible (drawing from the Alternate Racial Traits, they weren't core to the race then so there's no reason to believe they'd be core to the race now):

Half-Orc Bite Attack (the Toothy ART)
Half-Elven Drow traits
Half-Elven Drow Inherent Magic
Aquatic Half-Elves
Aasimar Halo
Aasimar Exalted Resistance (Inherent Resistance to Evil spells)
Dhampir Bite Attack (Either the honestly kinda lousy one they had as an ART or the one they could take with the PF1e equivalent of a Heritage Feat: A Feat only available at first level)
Dayborn Dhampir
Various alternate Fetchling Inherent Magics
Elemental-Kin Elemental Healing
Ifrit Fire Damage
Oread Crystalline Form
Oread Ferrous Growth
Oread Natural Armor
Sylph Speed Boost
Undine Breath Weapons
Undines that can actually breathe water
Undine Deepsight
Undine Nereid Fascination (A personal favorite)
Undine Watersense
Tiefling Prehensile Tail
Tiefling Natural Weapons
Tiefling Vestigial Wings
Tiefling Natural Armor
Tiefling Soul Sight
Changeling Inherent Magic
Witchborn Changelings
Elementally-focused Suli

I don't know about anyone else... but that seems an awful lot of cool and interesting options that are lost by not allowing Halfbloods to have Heritage Feats. And that's not even touching on all the cool and interesting options they could add that weren't in PF1e. And there's also the issue of "I want my halfblood character to use the weapons of their people... but that's it's own feat and thus I can't use my preferred weapons for 1/5 of the game. As such, and I think I've advocated this before but it's especially worth restating now that some of my favorite races have a feat tax, I am very much advocating multiple Ancestry Feats at level 1.

Mark Seifter wrote:

No, that is not the case. It's a one-time feat, not one you can take again. It's in the first sentence of my post in the quote.

That is... what I said. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

What I am saying is that a human with Natural Ambition will always be one class feat ahead of a half-elf or a half-orc, which actually matters, because class feats are strong options that directly improve a character's ability to carry out their class's specialty. That trumps gaining minor, auxiliary side benefits.

I don't think vision and extra movement speed are minor benefits TBH. You could argue they are auxiliary ones, but that certainly isn't true of every class. Sure, a light spell solves the vision problem for a fighter, but not for a rogue or ranger or other sneaky scout type. A light spell immediately gives them away. You ever seen the issues a human rogue runs into scouting in the dark? It is awkward as heck.

I think the flexible stat boost is being significantly overrated. It isn't any better at your build than an ancestry that's already suited to what you want to do (a half-elf and elf Arcane Archer is going to have identical stat set ups, for example), all it really does is increase the variety in the types of characters you can make with that ancestry.

Archetypes and Alternate Racial traits weren't in the Core Rule book either - and they were added later and work just fine. They could create future ancestry options if they deem it necessary - but I think the whole idea of the ancestry feats is to tone down how much ancestry affects the character at 1st level, and spread that out. That's not just a half-blood thing.

Colette Brunel wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

No, that is not the case. It's a one-time feat, not one you can take again. It's in the first sentence of my post in the quote.

That is... what I said. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

What I am saying is that a human with Natural Ambition will always be one class feat ahead of a half-elf or a half-orc, which actually matters, because class feats are strong options that directly improve a character's ability to carry out their class's specialty. That trumps gaining minor, auxiliary side benefits.

To be fair, the existence of Natural Ambition is an absolutely terrible idea that ruins the whole notion of separating out ancestry feats so they don't compete with your core character features.

I think allowing some limited flexibility between categories is ok, and this one is fine because humans don't get anything else of significance as a baseline of their ancestry, some stronger feat options (at first level) are recompense.

My gut feeling is that I'm going to end up allowing players to pick their 5 ancestry feats at character creation and just deal with the blank levels and the PCs being more powerful than the game expects at lower levels. (I'm used to it since my players have always cheated rolled for stats and ended up at 80-point-buy anyway.) At least that way you can actually be a gnome or an elf or whatever instead of just a PC-shaped blob of protoplasm slowly evolving into a gnome or an elf or a whatever.

I understand that a PC gets better at fighting or wizarding or rogueing by practice, but I don't get why he'd get more elfy or gnomey.

Xenocrat wrote:

Sgtdrill wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Give me $1000 today and I'll give you $2000 in 30 years, it's a strict financial upgrade.

And the Half-Elf feat is not more powerful than other feats the same category. That feat buys 2 out of 4 options. Elves get three of those for free, plus a whole other feat.

That's absolutely correct. $2000 is greater than $1000.

And you don't even have to wait 30 years. You get a better feat than elves at 1st level - and it gets better from there in 4 more levels.

You do realize that the feat's abilities are tacked on to what humans (or dwarves, or whatever you want to crossbreed with) already get, right?

Man, I really want to sell you a financed used car. Time value of money (and feats) is a very important concept to understand.

It's not clear that Humans get anything other than +2 HP, a feat that the Half-Elf traded away, and access to the Human ancestry feat list that you can't touch until level 5.

There's no compound interest on feats. In fact, as higher level feats are (generally) better, one could argue its the opposite.

There is a compound chance of death at every encounter, and starting out weaker at level 1 reduces your chance of being alive at level 5.

You should note that the "Orcs as characters" rules in the Bestiary are necessary to make any kind of orc character, because orcs don't have racial hit dice and can't exist without class levels. So if you want orc "monsters" (i.e. NPCs) you need these rules, and that is why they are there, not to make player characters. (Note that it does not say "Orcs as PCs".) Your GM might allow it, but those rules are not intended for player characters. And of course that goes for all races that have an "X as characters" section in their Bestiary entry.

I don't know what you think you are telling me that you think I don't know. You know that I know if there was any objective overt rules or restrictions against Orc PCs you would have cited those. There is not, that is simply up to campaign conventions. In fact, in ARG Paizo actually classifies Orcs in same tier as Aasimar and Ratfolk (Featured Races) explicitly in context of PCs. But this is besides the point I was actually making.

Whether you use them for PCs or not, Orcs WERE always "an actual race in the game" which CrazyFuzzy was talking about. There is no reason to think that has changed, right? So we can expect them to continue to have the full mechanical stats necessary to be "actual race in the game" even if that is solely within Bestiary. Even if you believe there to be contextual implication that is for NPCs only. The question of breadth of Ancestry Feats (or their location) is really a detail, not question of whether they are mechanical ancestry or not.

Mark Seifter wrote:

No, that is not the case. It's a one-time feat, not one you can take again. It's in the first sentence of my post in the quote.

That is... what I said. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

What I am saying is that a human with Natural Ambition will always be one class feat ahead of a half-elf or a half-orc, which actually matters, because class feats are strong options that directly improve a character's ability to carry out their class's specialty. That trumps gaining minor, auxiliary side benefits.

But that's not correct, so I'm not explaining well. Our example from before is Half-Elf Ezren who takes Half-Elf at 1st level and Natural Ambition at 5th to get Widen Spell when it matters more. Compare to Human Ezren who takes Natural Ambition at 1st and then <something else that isn't a class feat because he can't take Natural Ambition again> at 5th. The half-elf Ezren is not a class feat behind. Now a full elven Ezren would never be able to get that class feat, but the half-elf can.

I understand that a PC gets better at fighting or wizarding or rogueing by practice, but I don't get why he'd get more elfy or gnomey.

If this is how the system is supposed to work, I agree with you. It's genre-contrary to get more ancestry traits as you level.

I like the mention of Adoptive Ancestry. Confirmed we can make especially tall dwarves!

Finally my 6'0" dwarf fighter with a 30 Cha can come into fruition!

I have one huge misgiving with this: It completely bars halfbloods (Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, Ganzi, Aphorites and Duskwalkers from Planar Adventures, any of the Elemental-kin, Changelings, Skinwalkers, Dhampir... some of these are far and away my favorite races so I'm personally invested in this) from ever getting any kind of Heritage feats of their own, because Heritage feats can as we know only be taken at first level, and, well, simply playing a Halfblood takes your level 1 Ancestry feat.

I would have to say I don't believe that is true, simply because unique Heritage Feats can simply be implemented as alternate Half-Blood Heritage ("Entry") Feats. I.e. they give same general benefit in terms of allowing access to both pool, "counting as Elf" etc, but would differ in terms of specifics of what they grant. Obviously there is no concrete example of this until they make one, but conceptually it seems basic. So many posters seem to approach things as if CRB must incorporate every single concept. P1E CRB did that for very few concepts. P2E looks to do so for more, but that doesn't mean some will be left for future products. That is not problem with core system.

Your extensive list does raise question how those will all be handled. Even if this is the route chosen for Half-Elfs/Orcs, it isn't clear all of those would need to follow same route. Some of them are pretty questionable to lump in as "Halfs", I don't think Skinwalkers or Dhampirs really qualify (Dhampirs' Vampire parent was really a Human vampire, so it's not about "Half heritage" as much as obscure blending of Positive/Negative affinity). Changlings are less "Half" because that is simply the 100% normal reproduction cycle for that race.

I do have qualms with this approach, and have proposed alterations within the broad format they have chosen, which IMHO would significantly improve the dynamics around this. We will see.

A bit of a side-track, but when it comes to getting more ancestry feats as you gain levels, we did this to give you the tools to represent your character in the way you wanted. Not all dwarves learn to use dwarven weapons. An elf that did not learn to use the magic is her blood at a young age might be trained later in life.

While some might be a bit odd to gain later, like ancestral longevity, we tried to ere on the side of flexibility instead of littering the game with heritage feats (most only have one or two at most). Those that are there are usually based on physiology and would make almost no sense to suddenly develop later.

I also want to stress that while we want your ancestry to be an important part of your character's make-up, it is not our intent that it overshadow your class. Its meant to compliment and round out your build, not to necessarily define it. I personally think having your connection to your people grow and expand over time is a benefit to this system.

Archetypes and Alternate Racial traits weren't in the Core Rule book either - and they were added later and work just fine. They could create future ancestry options if they deem it necessary - but I think the whole idea of the ancestry feats is to tone down how much ancestry affects the character at 1st level, and spread that out. That's not just a half-blood thing.

If this is at all talking about my list, the issue here isn't just that the're Alternate Racial Traits. It's specifically that they're the kind of Racial Traits (physical features and IIRC Inherent Spellcasting) that fall under the (very explicitly only available at level 1) Heritage Feat's purview. Which Halfbloods very explicitly would not be able to take because their only level 1 Ancestry Trait is taken by just being a Half-blood. So the only Heritage options they can take... are the (frankly bland and generic, if potentially useful) ones inherent to being a Halfblood. Which will almost certainly be along the lines of the default Racial Traits they had in PF1e, rather than anything from the list of Alternate Racial Traits in PF1e.

Sgtdrill wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Sgtdrill wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Give me $1000 today and I'll give you $2000 in 30 years, it's a strict financial upgrade.

And the Half-Elf feat is not more powerful than other feats the same category. That feat buys 2 out of 4 options. Elves get three of those for free, plus a whole other feat.

That's absolutely correct. $2000 is greater than $1000.

And you don't even have to wait 30 years. You get a better feat than elves at 1st level - and it gets better from there in 4 more levels.

You do realize that the feat's abilities are tacked on to what humans (or dwarves, or whatever you want to crossbreed with) already get, right?

Man, I really want to sell you a financed used car. Time value of money (and feats) is a very important concept to understand.

It's not clear that Humans get anything other than +2 HP, a feat that the Half-Elf traded away, and access to the Human ancestry feat list that you can't touch until level 5.

There's no compound interest on feats. In fact, as higher level feats are (generally) better, one could argue its the opposite.

There is a compound chance of death at every encounter, and starting out weaker at level 1 reduces your chance of being alive at level 5.

Ok, let's analyze this. Let's presume that we wanted Dex/Int anyways. The half-elf takes low light vision and 5 ft movement, thus becoming physically identical to the elf. What does the elf take that obliterates +2 HP so badly that the half-elf will die without it?

Bear in mind, this is the best case scenario for the elf comparison.

Ancestries was one of the things I was most excited about, the idea of getting free racial treats as we level up is great. However what I didn't realise at first was that we don't get the same amount of stuff at 1st level as we did in 1st edition. So really what ancestry feats have become is just a way of spacing out our racial traits throughout 20 levels, and I'm very disappointed in that. Why my dwarf can't start out with Greed, Defensive Training, Stonecunning, etc. at 1st level and then get his other ancestry feats later as he levels up as well? That would have been great! It would be like getting all the stuff you normally expect to get from playing a dwarf/elf/gnome whatever in 1st edition, and then getting the 2nd edition equivalents of 1st edition's great racial feats (Orc Hewer, Mage of the Wilds, Effortless Trickery etc.) as ancestry feats later on as you level up. I thought the new ancestry feat system was about developing and emphasizing your ancestry throughtout the whole character advancement instead of just at character creation like in 1st edition. Instead it's just getting the same stuff you got in 1st edition, but instead spaced out through many levels.

Colette Brunel wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

No, that is not the case. It's a one-time feat, not one you can take again. It's in the first sentence of my post in the quote.

That is... what I said. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

What I am saying is that a human with Natural Ambition will always be one class feat ahead of a half-elf or a half-orc, which actually matters, because class feats are strong options that directly improve a character's ability to carry out their class's specialty. That trumps gaining minor, auxiliary side benefits.

But that's not correct, so I'm not explaining well. Our example from before is Half-Elf Ezren who takes Half-Elf at 1st level and Natural Ambition at 5th to get Widen Spell when it matters more. Compare to Human Ezren who takes Natural Ambition at 1st and then <something else that isn't a class feat because he can't take Natural Ambition again> at 5th. The half-elf Ezren is not a class feat behind. Now a full elven Ezren would never be able to get that class feat, but the half-elf can.

And yet Human Ezren takes part 2 of "Insert Wizard build here" at level 5. Half-Elf Ezren has to wait till what... level 7? Further?

There is a compound chance of death at every encounter, and starting out weaker at level 1 reduces your chance of being alive at level 5.

Which I guess makes the +2 hp humans have over elves even better :P

Not to mention the flexible ability scores, not having -con as default and so on.

This feat seems to be a straight upgrade for humans.

Joana wrote:

I understand that a PC gets better at fighting or wizarding or rogueing by practice, but I don't get why he'd get more elfy or gnomey.

If this is how the system is supposed to work, I agree with you. It's genre-contrary to get more ancestry traits as you level.

So it was genre-contrary when Race-pre-req Feats built upon Racial abilities in P1E? Or Drow Nobles etc were implemented as Feat chains?

Joana wrote:

I understand that a PC gets better at fighting or wizarding or rogueing by practice, but I don't get why he'd get more elfy or gnomey.

If this is how the system is supposed to work, I agree with you. It's genre-contrary to get more ancestry traits as you level.

I could understand getting traits that are not based on physiology (e.g. picking up a weapon proficiency and the racial language), but picking up darkvision after first makes no sense. I'd also say picking up a halfbreed feat any time after character creation makes no sense*, as well as dropping one through retraining. The preview above doesn't list that restriction on the feat, but I'm going to assume/hope they have it in the playtest book, or add it in the final version.

* Without magic.

While some might be a bit odd to gain later, like ancestral longevity, we tried to ere on the side of flexibility instead of littering the game with heritage feats (most only have one or two at most). Those that are there are usually based on physiology and would make almost no sense to suddenly develop later.

Edit: Disregard me; I'm a dumb-dumb.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. LIFESPAN is a feat?

I get that you guys are trying to make everything featy into a feat, and everything spelly into a spell, but you don't need to do it for everything. A list of traits would be perfectly acceptable for literal biological aspects of a character.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

While some might be a bit odd to gain later, like ancestral longevity, we tried to ere on the side of flexibility instead of littering the game with heritage feats (most only have one or two at most). Those that are there are usually based on physiology and would make almost no sense to suddenly develop later.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. LIFESPAN is a feat?

I get that you guys are trying to make everything featy into a feat, and everything spelly into a spell, but you don't need to do it for everything. A list of traits would be perfectly acceptable for literal biological aspects of a character.

Lifespan isn't the benefit of that feat. It gives you a flexible skill trained each day based on living a long life of doing all sorts of things.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

While some might be a bit odd to gain later, like ancestral longevity, we tried to ere on the side of flexibility instead of littering the game with heritage feats (most only have one or two at most). Those that are there are usually based on physiology and would make almost no sense to suddenly develop later.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. LIFESPAN is a feat?

I get that you guys are trying to make everything featy into a feat, and everything spelly into a spell, but you don't need to do it for everything. A list of traits would be perfectly acceptable for literal biological aspects of a character.

Ancestral Longevity lets you swap out skills you're trained in daily, as a nod to elves/dwarves who have already had long lives. It does not affect your character's lifespan.