Monk Class Preview

Monday, June 18, 2018

Some players love to play monks so they can strive toward enlightenment. Others just like to punch stuff!

Monk Features

Monks choose whether their key ability is Strength or Dexterity, which will determine the DC of some of their abilities. Their selection of initial proficiencies looks pretty different from most classes! First off, they have expert proficiency in all their saving throws. Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks. They also get powerful fist, which increases the damage die of their fists and lets them make lethal strikes without penalty when using normally nonlethal unarmed attacks. Further, they're untrained in armor, but get graceful expertise at 1st level, which gives them expert proficiency in unarmored defense (everybody else is only trained).

They get one last class feature at 1st level, of course: Flurry of Blows! This is a single action that can be used once per round to make two strikes using an unarmed attack. If both hit, their damage is combined. Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4 penalty (since a fist is agile). Flurry of Blows is a huge advantage, letting the monk attack up to four times in a round, or letting the monk have plenty of actions to move and attack in a single turn. Speaking of moving, at 3rd level, a monk gains incredible movement, increasing his speed as long as he's not wearing armor. This starts at a 10-foot increase, and it goes up by 5 feet every 3 levels.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Because monks can defend themselves in so many different ways, we wanted to let the monk pick how his saving throws improve. His saves increase at 7th level through the path to perfection class feature, which lets him increase a save's proficiency rank to master. The second path to perfection, at 11th level, lets a monk treat any successful save as a critical success instead, as long as he has master proficiency in that save. The monk gets his third path to perfection at 15th level, which he can use to either increase his proficiency rank in another save to master proficiency or progress his proficiency at a save in which he's already a master to legendary.

The monk's unarmored defense proficiency also goes up as he levels, first to master at 13th level and then to legendary at 17th. You'll notice that monks no longer add their Wisdom modifiers to AC, which is due to a few factors. First, depending on the monk's Dexterity modifier, the gulf between a heavily armored character and a monk without armor is extremely low, so adding even more bonuses would put the monk really far ahead. Second, adding more than a single ability modifier to a check or DC now really distorts the game. Third, we have another role for Wisdom to play in the class, and wanted it to be optional so monks aren't dependent on many different ability scores, giving you more flexibility with how you can build a monk character.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk's unarmed attacks get better as he levels up. Magic strikes, at 3rd level, makes the monk's unarmed attacks magical, and increases his proficiency rank to expert. At 5th level, metal strikes causes them to be treated as cold iron and silver; at 17th level, adamantine strikes makes them act as adamantine. Fierce flurry, at 9th level, increases the damage dice of a Flurry of Blows by one step whenever both strikes hit. At 19th level, the monk has developed perfected form, meaning that when he makes an unarmed attack, he can treat any die roll lower than 10 as if he had rolled a 10! This lets the monk plow through weaker enemies who can't handle his immaculate fighting style, and against bosses, he can even turn a good number of misses into hits.

Monk Feats

A monk's feats let him expand how he can attack, teach him special martial arts techniques, let him develop an entire fighting style, or use magic called ki (which we explain in the Ki section).

Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons. This is how Sajan gets to use that sweet temple sword! If you'd rather stick with punches, kicks, knees, and headbutts, take a look at Brawling Focus at 4th level, which gives you the critical specialization effect for anything in the brawling weapon group. This means if you critically hit with your unarmed attacks, the target might be slowed 1 on its next turn, losing 1 action.

Some of the special attacks you can learn include Stunning Fist, a great option if you're looking to recreate your Pathfinder First Edition monk. A Stunning Fist strike takes 2 actions and you make an unarmed strike; if the strike deals damage, the target has to succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC (based on your Strength or Dex, remember?) or be flat-footed for 1 round, or stupefied 2 if it critically fails. So how do you stun the target? If your strike is a critical hit, the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse, and if it critically fails its save it's stunned for 1 round! At 4th level, you can pick up Deflect Arrow, a reaction that gives you a +4 bonus to AC against a ranged weapon attack, or Flying Kick, which lets you use 2 actions to jump and make a strike at the end of your jump. You can even Long Jump—normally 2 actions—as part of your Flying Kick, potentially moving very far before your strike. Other attacks include Ghost Strike, which lets you use 2 actions to target TAC, or Wall Run, which lets you run up vertical surfaces at your full Speed.

Now what about fighting styles? Let's look at one that starts with the Crane Stance feat at 1st level! A stance takes one action to enter, and can be used only in an encounter. You typically stay in a stance until you enter another stance or get knocked out. In Crane Stance, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and get better at jumping, but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks. What the heck are those? Well, many stances give special unarmed attacks that have statistics much like weapons. Crane wing attacks deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. What if Crane Stance isn't enough? Well, you can pick up Crane Flutter, a reaction that increases your AC against a melee attack and lets you immediately riposte with a crane wing strike at a -4 penalty if the triggering attack misses. Each of the stances in the Playtest Rulebook has one special attack tied to it, but I could see us expanding on them in the future, couldn't you? If you really get into stances, you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns.

Ki

Oh, geez, I'm running long, huh? Let's make this quick. You know how I said there's a role for Wisdom? Well, that's where ki powers come into play. And when I say powers, I mean powers—they're spells just like other powers (such as the wizard's school powers or the cleric's domain powers). You gain access to ki by picking up the first ki power feat, Ki Strike, which gives you a pool of Spell Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, which you can spend to cast ki strike. This power is a Verbal Casting free action you can use when making an unarmed strike to get a +1 bonus to your attack roll. So you let out a shout and hit better!

Now that you have Spell Points, you can expand your repertoire of powers to teleport with Abundant Step, fire a cone of force with a Ki Blast, or kill someone with Quivering Palm. Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2. Let's take a look, and then I'm outta here (probably flying away using the wind jump power)!

Quivering Palm Power 8

Attack, Necromancy
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Duration 1 month

Make a melee unarmed Strike, dealing damage normally. If you succeed and the target is alive, anytime during the duration you can spend a Verbal action to speak a word of death that could instantly slay it, depending on its Fortitude save.

Success The target survives, the spell ends, and the target is bolstered against it.
Failure The target is stunned for 1 round but survives. The spell's duration continues, but the target is bolstered against being killed by quivering palm for 24 hours.
Critical Failure The target dies.

If you cast quivering palm again, any previous quivering palm you had cast ends.

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:
... (pointing out crit failing attacks)

Crit-failing an attack doesn’t do anything by default. If the Bard IDs the enemy as one of the rare ones punishing a crit miss, then stick to a flurry.

Sovereign Court

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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Bruno Mares wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
My suspicion is that such a monk will still have Dex second, so 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, and so on, meaning they're behind by 1 or 0 in AC at most levels. A monk like this will probably want Con third for sure. We'll see how it fares in playtest!
Please don't say that ability increases will be similar to Starfinder regarding 2 points to lower than 18 score and 1 point to higher... This is super confusing and not player-friendly...
Weeellllllllp. I guess Logan's comment does confirm our fears about the Starfinder "diminishing returns" ability increases returning, and means odd scores are still a thing. :|

Fine by me. Keeps the cap down and nerfs SAD.

Silver Crusade

Unicore wrote:
I imagine that a str based monk is going to be capable of dealing a lot of damage a round, so there AC might fall behind a Dex based Monk, but that probably means there is not an easy path to dex based damage bonuses to your unarmed attacked, or else the Str monk really serves no viable build. Dex monk is probably going to be a strong defensive character and Str Monk is probably going to be a powerful striker. I am alright with that split. The access to spell points via a feat is interesting. That might be how they handle the ranger as well.

"They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. "

Different builds use different style for damage and grant AC bonuses.


Darius Alazario wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.
So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?
I suspect you get to add your Str mod to both sets of weapon damage dice whether they're against the same target or not, but it's not 100% clear to me.
Okay, but what is the point of waiting until after the second attack roll to make the damage roll for your first attack?
I don't think there is a necessity for waiting to make the damage rolls. The key here is 'the damage of the two attacks is combined' why this is key is if things have say, resistance 5 bludgeoning and you do 2 separate attacks, the damage of each is reduced by 5. However, with this flurry the damages are being combined and as such the resistance only applies once! I imagine there are other similar cases but this is the most obvious one that comes to mind. I suppose also would be overpowering a shield, damage is reduced by...

So, does this mean both attacks must be against a single target?

Scarab Sages

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I'm really digging this new iteration of monk. I feel like they have really become a distinct class of their own.


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MidsouthGuy wrote:
So I can actually make a Strength based Monk and not have people stare at me like I've grown a second head? FINALLY! Hopefully Orcs still get a big bonus to their Strength. I'll take the hit to my mental stats if I can viably play what amounts to a green kung fu gorilla.

????

STR UnMonks are the optimal build in PF1. Who'd fault you for that?

Subutai1 wrote:


Well if you bring up comparsions to PF1, an unchained monk had up to 7 full BAB attacks (not counting the others here). So far, we have seen not a single mechanic in PF2 that would allow even a single 2nd attack to be at full BAB, which basically kills the idea of a class capable of hitting reliably multiple times per round.

This is very disingenuous. UnMonks get 7 BAB attacks with:

- 1x from BAB progression.
- 2x from Flurry.
- 1x from Ki Pool.
- 2x from Medusa's Wrath.
- 1x from Haste.

Haste still exists. We don't know anything about Medusa's Wrath. We know Ki Pool will make you more accurate, which is a big deal. We don't know how Flurry progresses.

This is like the whole UnMonk vs Monk debate again, where people said Monk had more attacks because they had another attack at -15.

Functionality trumps quantity. Let's see the playtest, let's see what it gets, and let's see if it works.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Flurry takes the penalty for cumulative attacks?

So monk can flurry and attack at: -0, -4, -8, -12?

That seems extremely penalizing.

Str monk would flurry at -0, -5, -10, -15?

And if you flurries twice it would be -0, -5, -10, -15, 20?


Nathanael Love wrote:

Flurry takes the penalty for cumulative attacks?

So monk can flurry and attack at: -0, -4, -8, -12?

That seems extremely penalizing.

Str monk would flurry at -0, -5, -10, -15?

And if you flurries twice it would be -0, -5, -10, -15, 20?

Agile weapons max out at -8 and other weapons at -10, so a Dex monk flurries at -0/-4/-8/-8 and a Str monk at -0/-5/-10/-10.

And you can't flurry twice in one round as far as we know.


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Nathanael Love wrote:

Flurry takes the penalty for cumulative attacks?

So monk can flurry and attack at: -0, -4, -8, -12?

That seems extremely penalizing.

Str monk would flurry at -0, -5, -10, -15?

And if you flurries twice it would be -0, -5, -10, -15, 20?

1. Agile applies to STR attacks as well. So it's the same for both, unless you pick up a Style that removes Agile from your attacks, but, in which case, we don't know what benefits the style has to compensate.

2. Cap is at -8 I believe.

Silver Crusade

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You can't flurry twice.

And STR monk is just as the DEX monk at 0 / -4 / -8 / ??(8 or 10)

Thing is: with one action you attack twice. That leaves you with two other actions in that round.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:

Flurry takes the penalty for cumulative attacks?

So monk can flurry and attack at: -0, -4, -8, -12?

That seems extremely penalizing.

Str monk would flurry at -0, -5, -10, -15?

And if you flurries twice it would be -0, -5, -10, -15, 20?

It’s -0, -4, -8, -8. The third penalty is the last. Trading agile for damage would give you -0, -5, -10, -10.

You can’t flurry twice, but getting hasted gives you an extra attack at -8 or -10 (depending on if you have agile fists).


Justin Franklin wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

This preview isn't....very good. At all.

First of all, absolutely no weapon proficiencies without spending a feat is just horrible. It's just a Feat Tax for people not wanting to play a punchy monk.

Secondly, how does Flurry of Blows work? The blog text is kind of confusing. If I use my first action for it, it's two attacks at, I assume, +0/-4. Then, if I use it again, it's what, -8/-8? And -8/-8 again if I use it a third time? Flurry of misses just got revived hard if that's the case. Until 19th level, of course.

Also, a starting Monk will have an AC of 11+Dex. No armor penalty, true, but then, even someone trained in just Light Armor can start with 12+Dex. I really don't see how a Monk can keep up when they'll be limited to 13+Dex at maximum (assuming Legendary in unarmored) while everyone else will be 13+Armor Bonus+Dex (keeping in mind my earlier comment in the Gearing Up! thread about maximising AC). Unless Heavy Armor is seriously underwhelming, that is.

I don't mind Stunning Fist being a feat now (I mean, par for the course at this point), but it's been horribly changed for the worse. Flat-footed on a fail, Stupefied on a Crit, and I need to Crit with my strike and have the target Critically Fail for it to actually stun?! With a feat called Stunning Fist, you'd think it'd actually Stun people regularly, not just when the stars align. Oh and it takes two actions, because of course it does.

The rest of the post is just underwhelming. Really strange scaling on the monk's fists (3-5-17, really?), the styles look alright though.

I also don't like making Ki Powers into feats, but again, par for the course with how this edition is going.

Flurry of Blows is once per round. So Flurry on the first attack and then up to 2 more attacks at -8

Actually I think the penalty is lower than that because the monks fists are considered agile weapons which I believe lowers the iterative penalty.


The maximum penalty from iteratives is -10, no matter how many attacks you make. But it's not actually clear if agile makes that -8 or -9. All we know is that agile reduces the penalty from an iterative attack by 1, I don't know if it's actually been stated that the reduction is /cumulative/ so as to make the third attack -8.

Another thing that isn't clear to me is whether attacks made as reactions inherit and/or increase the iterative penalty. The redcap implies yes, other stuff implies no, and I don't actually know as a result.

So if you made two attacks on your turn, for a net iterative of -5, and then you use Attack of Opportunity (reaction attack at -2) does that mean your AoO is at a total penalty of -2 (full BAB -2)? -7 (current iterative -2)? -12 (add an iterative and -2)? -10 (as previous but capped by the universal -10 limit)?

And if you make another AoO due to having a bonus reaction, is the second one at -5 from the first one?

Liberty's Edge

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Fuzzypaws wrote:
The maximum penalty from iteratives is -10, no matter how many attacks you make. But it's not actually clear if agile makes that -8 or -9.

Actually, it is. We know that at PaizoCon they taled about the final attack with a short sword (which we know are Agile) as being -8. So that's how it works.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Wultram wrote:
This mostly a personal peeve, but I really hate how the blogs are written style wise. I do not care for the conversational tone. Just give the information in a solid easy to see format.

AFAICT they're really meant less to inform than to excite. The devs may write them, but I always get the feeling the VP of Marketing is watching over their shoulder with a gun to their head: "More exciting! More! What's that thing at the end of that sentence?" "A period." "Make it an exclamation point!"

(Fair's fair, this particular blog isn't bad about exclamation points. Too many of the rest are.)

I personally belive it is a bad approuch. I am relatively sure that the vast majority of people reading these are PF1 players, and inside that most probably won't really get any more nor less excited by hype speak. It is just completely wasted effort, and waste of time of the readers. And I am sure it is marketing and limitations on what they are allowed to reveal that is causing the issues. All the same for my tastes the style of writing chosen on these preview blogs is annoying and if anything it will make me less likely to give the company my money. I will grant you that this was hardly the worst offender of the blogs. All I am really doing is voicing my opinion in the hopes that maybe that policy will change at least towards the direction that I would prefer.

To use an analogy, I absolutely loathe when a cars salesman tries to pretend they are my chum. Just give me the damn specs, that is the only thing that matters in regards to my purchase.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
The maximum penalty from iteratives is -10, no matter how many attacks you make. But it's not actually clear if agile makes that -8 or -9.
Actually, it is. We know that at PaizoCon they taled about the final attack with a short sword (which we know are Agile) as being -8. So that's how it works.

When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?


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Fuzzypaws wrote:


So if you made two attacks on your turn, for a net iterative of -5, and then you use Attack of Opportunity (reaction attack at -2) does that mean your AoO is at a total penalty of -2 (full BAB -2)? -7 (current iterative -2)? -12 (add an iterative and -2)? -10 (as previous but capped by the universal -10 limit)?

And if you make another AoO due to having a bonus reaction, is the second one at -5 from the first one?

From Fighter Blog:

"First up is attacks of opportunity. This feature allows you to spend your reaction to strike a creature within your reach that tries to manipulate an object (like drinking a potion), make a ranged attack, or move away from you. This attack is made with a –2 penalty, but it doesn't take the multiple attack penalty from other strikes you attempt on your turn."


PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much of a problem is having a 16 in your main stat in PF2? I know that +1 matters a lot, but I always have trouble with monk stats.

Like I'm thinking of playing a Dwarf Monk with 16 in Dex, Con, and Wis, 12 Str, and 8 Cha. Bad idea?

Pretty sure this will be impossible by the new character building system...:

Class: +2 one stat
Background: +2 two stats
Race: +2 three stats, -2 one stat
Floating: +2 four stats

I think at max you could have 16s in two stats, and that's giving up an 18 in one stat to do it.

EDIT: This is incorrect in my conclusion, as others have pointed out. You can have 3 16s even given the system presented above.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Do we not know what the point buy is yet?

Something I find a bit wonky is the removal of Wis to AC. If it would have been to much to do it and Dex, have the Monk take the better of the two instead of removing it completely. Right now, you have two main stats that need raised, and a third that should be up there with them to be effective. (Please tell me that the Ki pool is a Min 1)

Also, is there still an Alignment restrictions on the Monk? Never understood why they were not non-Chaotic restricted instead of being "Lawful."


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thaX wrote:

Do we not know what the point buy is yet?

Something I find a bit wonky is the removal of Wis to AC. If it would have been to much to do it and Dex, have the Monk take the better of the two instead of removing it completely. Right now, you have two main stats that need raised, and a third that should be up there with them to be effective. (Please tell me that the Ki pool is a Min 1)

Also, is there still an Alignment restrictions on the Monk? Never understood why they were not non-Chaotic restricted instead of being "Lawful."

There is no point buy, but we know how stats are generated.


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tivadar27 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much of a problem is having a 16 in your main stat in PF2? I know that +1 matters a lot, but I always have trouble with monk stats.

Like I'm thinking of playing a Dwarf Monk with 16 in Dex, Con, and Wis, 12 Str, and 8 Cha. Bad idea?

Pretty sure this will be impossible by the new character building system...

I believe your proposed system is correct but your conclusion is not. The proposed dwarf build is buildable using those rules.

thaX wrote:


Do we not know what the point buy is yet?

We are probably missing some details but basically what we have is a new system.

All stats start at 10

Ancestry adds +2 to two stats -2 to a third stat (likely human/half-human will be different but so far dwarf, ef, goblin, etc. have all followed this) and then a floating +2 to any of the non boosted stats but can be used to neutralize the -2.

So: +2/+2/+2/-2 OR +2/+2

Background provides a static +2 based on the background plus another floating +2 to any other stat

Class provides another +2 to one stat dependent upon class. (Id guess Monks can choose either dex or str)

Then finally you can add +2 to any four stats of your choice.

At lvls 5, 10, 15, 20 you can incease four stats of your choice. If the stat is below 18 increase it by 2. if the stat is 18 or higher increase it by 1.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The bonuses from the various aspects of character building is the only way to up the stats?

Boy, that would be horrible! A combined +10 (using the stats from the post above) for six stats. The Monk needs three stats for a Dex build unless he really wants straight damage die for low levels. Even with dumping Int or Cha to 8, that would be two stats at 16 and three at 10.

Ninja'd...

The last part, I misread the previous post, that would mean a little leaway with the other three bonuses I missed.


tivadar27 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much of a problem is having a 16 in your main stat in PF2? I know that +1 matters a lot, but I always have trouble with monk stats.

Like I'm thinking of playing a Dwarf Monk with 16 in Dex, Con, and Wis, 12 Str, and 8 Cha. Bad idea?

Pretty sure this will be impossible by the new character building system...:

Class: +2 one stat
Background: +2 two stats
Race: +2 three stats, -2 one stat
Floating: +2 four stats

I think at max you could have 16s in two stats, and that's giving up an 18 in one stat to do it.

Hmm.

Ancestry: 10/12/12/10/12/8
Background: 10/12/14/10/14/8
Class: 10/14/14/10/14/8
Floating: 12/16/16/10/16/8

Seems possible.


Cyouni wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

How much of a problem is having a 16 in your main stat in PF2? I know that +1 matters a lot, but I always have trouble with monk stats.

Like I'm thinking of playing a Dwarf Monk with 16 in Dex, Con, and Wis, 12 Str, and 8 Cha. Bad idea?

Pretty sure this will be impossible by the new character building system...:

Class: +2 one stat
Background: +2 two stats
Race: +2 three stats, -2 one stat
Floating: +2 four stats

I think at max you could have 16s in two stats, and that's giving up an 18 in one stat to do it.

Hmm.

Ancestry: 10/12/12/10/12/8
Background: 10/12/14/10/14/8
Class: 10/14/14/10/14/8
Floating: 12/16/16/10/16/8

Seems possible.

Yeah it's plenty possible, assuming Monk gives +Dex or +Wis or +Con. Otherwise, you can't pull it off. But you can pull 3 16s, that's for sure. It's just that Class and Ancestry determine which ones.


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thaX wrote:

The bonuses from the various aspects of character building is the only way to up the stats?

Boy, that would be horrible! A combined +10 (using the stats from the post above) for six stats. The Monk needs three stats for a Dex build unless he really wants straight damage die for low levels. Even with dumping Int or Cha to 8, that would be two stats at 16 and three at 10.

You missed a step the total combined bonus is +18 not +10

Also there is no dumping other than racial penalties.


Yep, sorry, had brain math fail! I edited the above post to indicate I was wrong, but left the context so people woudln't wonder what those afterwards were talking about.


I am.. actually quite glad that Monks will no longer have approximately 75012 attacks in a full routine.

It takes... too long to roll all of that out, and add up all your damage.

Streamlining that down to a simple [A] Run to enemy, [A] Flurry enemy, [A] Take defensive stance, really works for me.

... Especially if there re ways to double-down on action-cost attacks with Flurry of Blows.


Bardarok wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:


So if you made two attacks on your turn, for a net iterative of -5, and then you use Attack of Opportunity (reaction attack at -2) does that mean your AoO is at a total penalty of -2 (full BAB -2)? -7 (current iterative -2)? -12 (add an iterative and -2)? -10 (as previous but capped by the universal -10 limit)?

And if you make another AoO due to having a bonus reaction, is the second one at -5 from the first one?

From Fighter Blog:

"First up is attacks of opportunity. This feature allows you to spend your reaction to strike a creature within your reach that tries to manipulate an object (like drinking a potion), make a ranged attack, or move away from you. This attack is made with a –2 penalty, but it doesn't take the multiple attack penalty from other strikes you attempt on your turn."

Thank you, missed or forgot that bit.


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Dracoknight wrote:
Well at least it says "Encounter" when it comes to stances, meaning its not completely locked to combat. Though i would question the idea of going into a combat stance under a social encounter.

The ladies like crane style!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Heh... so, looking at it, a third-level elf Monk with the ancestry feat for speed is moving 45 ft. per action and ignoring one square of difficult terrain. Dwarves and non-elves wearing medium armor need three moves to catch up to you. Even if they’ve got sudden charge, you’re making two or three attacks to their one.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Hmm. Monk I had been quite skeptical about because so many players want so many different things out of the monk. But I think... amazingly enough, they have managed to make the class modular enough to please most of those different types of players. (And those who aren't pleased probably wouldn't be unless the monk was specifically designed to be OP). I was all about scrapping the monk entirely, but it may work after all. Looking forward to seeing it in the playtest.

What intrigues me MORE is this is the first time *I* have noticed (it may have been mentioned before) "Unarmored Defense" as a thing (a feat or whatever) as well as types of unarmed strikes that one may be proficient in. As pleased as I am to see that monks will be quite good at these things (e.g., starting at Expert in Unarmored Defense), I am even more pleased to see that the way it is worded, they seem to be abilities universally accessible by other classes if desired. And hopefully in a way where another class might be pretty decent at--if not best at, because that's probably the unarmed style of monk's niche--unarmored or unarmed fighting without having to dip into monk (or a similar class). I want unarmed combat to be a viable real thing (even while weapons have their own coolness), and especially a reasonable option for things like intrigue campaigns where it isn't always convenient to be hauling a greataxe all over the place.


QuidEst wrote:
Heh... so, looking at it, a third-level elf Monk with the ancestry feat for speed is moving 45 ft. per action and ignoring one square of difficult terrain. Dwarves and non-elves wearing medium armor need three moves to catch up to you. Even if they’ve got sudden charge, you’re making two or three attacks to their one.

Sounds like something to keep an eye on in the test, and another good argument for setting base speed for everyone back to 30. Speed 25 after armor vs a speed 50 opponent is at least doable, whereas speed 20 vs speed 45 means no attacks ever without special abilities or reach, yeah.

Liberty's Edge

Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?

It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.

TheFinish wrote:
Yeah it's plenty possible, assuming Monk gives +Dex or +Wis or +Con. Otherwise, you can't pull it off. But you can pull 3 16s, that's for sure. It's just that Class and Ancestry determine which ones.

Monk is explicitly noted as giving either Str or Dex at 1st in the above Blog Post.

And yeah, a non-human can have three 16s (though a Human can't get above two).

Liberty's Edge

Fuzzypaws wrote:
Sounds like something to keep an eye on in the test, and another good argument for setting base speed for everyone back to 30. Speed 25 after armor vs a speed 50 opponent is at least doable, whereas speed 20 vs speed 45 means no attacks ever without special abilities or reach, yeah.

Well, there's always ranged attacks. Or readying an action (unless the Monk has Reach, of course).


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Fuzzypaws wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Heh... so, looking at it, a third-level elf Monk with the ancestry feat for speed is moving 45 ft. per action and ignoring one square of difficult terrain. Dwarves and non-elves wearing medium armor need three moves to catch up to you. Even if they’ve got sudden charge, you’re making two or three attacks to their one.
Sounds like something to keep an eye on in the test, and another good argument for setting base speed for everyone back to 30. Speed 25 after armor vs a speed 50 opponent is at least doable, whereas speed 20 vs speed 45 means no attacks ever without special abilities or reach, yeah.

There are several ways for a dwarf to deal with a cowardly elven Monk. The easiest is just to step back. Now if the Monk wants to attack you, they have to double-move, and attacking would force them to remain adjacent. Readying an attack is useful, and can be combined with moving back.


This new monk is a pretty cool concept. It looks like it keeps all the good flavor of past versions of the monk, only adapted to PF2's engine in a clean manner. I particularly appreciate that it's inherently less MAD; that you can take wholly different views to it, for example ignoring ki stuff for a purely physical path; and that ki powers are now spells powered by spell points for a unified set of rules with other classes' special powers.

Of course we can debate if it's going to be balanced or not, but, as with past blogs, I don't think this can be judged until we have the whole playtest book in hand.

That said, I have one piece of criticism: I find the description of Stunning Fist to be confusing. So it can give a variety of conditions including flat-footed, stupefied, and stunned? These three things seem rathe loosely related. The rule might be hard to remember.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Heh... so, looking at it, a third-level elf Monk with the ancestry feat for speed is moving 45 ft. per action and ignoring one square of difficult terrain. Dwarves and non-elves wearing medium armor need three moves to catch up to you. Even if they’ve got sudden charge, you’re making two or three attacks to their one.
Sounds like something to keep an eye on in the test, and another good argument for setting base speed for everyone back to 30. Speed 25 after armor vs a speed 50 opponent is at least doable, whereas speed 20 vs speed 45 means no attacks ever without special abilities or reach, yeah.

The new ancestry speeds are all good imo. And I kinda like how the slow but sturdy dwarves or the nimble light small races don't get as affected by difficult terrain, while human-like (25 feet) lose 5 feet if they move only once (or any non-multiple of two).

If anything, I think the monk shouldn't gain +10 at Lv3. It's a little over the top with 3 Move Actions available and the new reduced speeds.
If they make it +5 Feet every 3 Levels starting at 3, its more linear (without the speed increase being twice as much the first time around) and doesn't get out of hand so fast/easily.


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I'm sure it's been posted before, but it would be great for Monk to choose between CHA/WIS/INT when they first pick the Ki feat as the mental stat that keys their Ki pool.

It's a simple change that would open up a heck of a lot of character concepts right from core. Like Charistmatic Scaled Fists or Drunken Masters for CHA, or Kung Fu Geniuses or Monastic Scholars for Int.


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Wow. I wasn't particularly looking forward to the monk blog, because I've never found monks particularly interesting or exciting. But after reading this blog, I feel like they've become something that really fits that mystic fighter niche...

I think the best part of the monk redesign is that it looks like one could build both Daredevil (low mysticism) and Iron Fist (high mysticism) from this chassis, without either one feeling out of place.

Color me impressed!


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Iron Fist, as per the Marvel Netflix TV Series, is definitely not High Wis or High Int though. His mysticism needs to be Cha based!


Azih wrote:
Iron Fist, as per the Marvel Netflix TV Series, is definitely not High Wis or High Int though. His mysticism needs to be Cha based!

Yeah, and the Netflix TV series is a horrible murdering of his character.

In the comics he's actually much wiser than he lets on, but even then, his mystic powers literally come from Shou-Lao the Undying, so if anything his powers fit a Barbarian Totem more than they fit anything else.

He's definitely not using Int though, that's for sure.


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Azih wrote:
Iron Fist, as per the Marvel Netflix TV Series, is definitely not High Wis or High Int though. His mysticism needs to be Cha based!

I understand that the Netflix version dumped charisma too, though.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.

So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?

I'm pretty sure it'd use the heavy weapon's third attack in that case, ie. -10.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?

Probably not. You’d probably have third-iterative penalties. For non-agile weapons, that’s -10.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?

If the premise of the first quotes it's correct, I guess you do the first attack normally, then substract 1xWeapon Penalty on the second attack and 2xWeapon Penalty on the third attack and any that comes afterwards.

So in your example it would be Normal Weapon (0), Agile (-4), Agile (-8), Normal Weapon (-10). Assuming at some point it will exist a really Heavy Weapon that does -6 per interaction, using that one on the third Attack would be -12, and using an Agile again on the fourth attack would be a -8.
At least thats what I'm getting out of it myself.


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QuidEst wrote:
Azih wrote:
Iron Fist, as per the Marvel Netflix TV Series, is definitely not High Wis or High Int though. His mysticism needs to be Cha based!
I understand that the Netflix version dumped charisma too, though.

Nah, the character was a likable dude in-universe, and smoothed over diplomatic problems out of combat (mostly by buying businesses outright sure but the people getting bought out didn't seem unhappy about it).

Definitely didn't dump Cha nearly as badly as Wis, or Int.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?

Sounds to me like Agile affects subsequent attacks, not the main attack you make.

So attack with a non-agile weapon > next attack gets -5, cumulative, up to -10.

Attack with an agile weapon > next attack gets -4, cumulative, up to -8.


Sounds (and looks) amazing. One thing I'm noticing is there is a lot of scaling in terms of proficiencies and whatnot. I hope the GM Screen (when it inevitably comes out) has charts for these scaling concepts. I'll admit, the versatility of the classes we've seen so far right off the bat is high. I'm really looking forward to 2nd Edition!

However, when the GM Screen comes out, can it please be in landscape format?

Liberty's Edge

Cyouni wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?
I'm pretty sure it'd use the heavy weapon's third attack in that case, ie. -10.

Yes. This. It's the same penalty as it would be if it was the third attack. For heavy weapons, this is -10.

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