Monk Class Preview

Monday, June 18, 2018

Some players love to play monks so they can strive toward enlightenment. Others just like to punch stuff!

Monk Features

Monks choose whether their key ability is Strength or Dexterity, which will determine the DC of some of their abilities. Their selection of initial proficiencies looks pretty different from most classes! First off, they have expert proficiency in all their saving throws. Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks. They also get powerful fist, which increases the damage die of their fists and lets them make lethal strikes without penalty when using normally nonlethal unarmed attacks. Further, they're untrained in armor, but get graceful expertise at 1st level, which gives them expert proficiency in unarmored defense (everybody else is only trained).

They get one last class feature at 1st level, of course: Flurry of Blows! This is a single action that can be used once per round to make two strikes using an unarmed attack. If both hit, their damage is combined. Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4 penalty (since a fist is agile). Flurry of Blows is a huge advantage, letting the monk attack up to four times in a round, or letting the monk have plenty of actions to move and attack in a single turn. Speaking of moving, at 3rd level, a monk gains incredible movement, increasing his speed as long as he's not wearing armor. This starts at a 10-foot increase, and it goes up by 5 feet every 3 levels.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Because monks can defend themselves in so many different ways, we wanted to let the monk pick how his saving throws improve. His saves increase at 7th level through the path to perfection class feature, which lets him increase a save's proficiency rank to master. The second path to perfection, at 11th level, lets a monk treat any successful save as a critical success instead, as long as he has master proficiency in that save. The monk gets his third path to perfection at 15th level, which he can use to either increase his proficiency rank in another save to master proficiency or progress his proficiency at a save in which he's already a master to legendary.

The monk's unarmored defense proficiency also goes up as he levels, first to master at 13th level and then to legendary at 17th. You'll notice that monks no longer add their Wisdom modifiers to AC, which is due to a few factors. First, depending on the monk's Dexterity modifier, the gulf between a heavily armored character and a monk without armor is extremely low, so adding even more bonuses would put the monk really far ahead. Second, adding more than a single ability modifier to a check or DC now really distorts the game. Third, we have another role for Wisdom to play in the class, and wanted it to be optional so monks aren't dependent on many different ability scores, giving you more flexibility with how you can build a monk character.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk's unarmed attacks get better as he levels up. Magic strikes, at 3rd level, makes the monk's unarmed attacks magical, and increases his proficiency rank to expert. At 5th level, metal strikes causes them to be treated as cold iron and silver; at 17th level, adamantine strikes makes them act as adamantine. Fierce flurry, at 9th level, increases the damage dice of a Flurry of Blows by one step whenever both strikes hit. At 19th level, the monk has developed perfected form, meaning that when he makes an unarmed attack, he can treat any die roll lower than 10 as if he had rolled a 10! This lets the monk plow through weaker enemies who can't handle his immaculate fighting style, and against bosses, he can even turn a good number of misses into hits.

Monk Feats

A monk's feats let him expand how he can attack, teach him special martial arts techniques, let him develop an entire fighting style, or use magic called ki (which we explain in the Ki section).

Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons. This is how Sajan gets to use that sweet temple sword! If you'd rather stick with punches, kicks, knees, and headbutts, take a look at Brawling Focus at 4th level, which gives you the critical specialization effect for anything in the brawling weapon group. This means if you critically hit with your unarmed attacks, the target might be slowed 1 on its next turn, losing 1 action.

Some of the special attacks you can learn include Stunning Fist, a great option if you're looking to recreate your Pathfinder First Edition monk. A Stunning Fist strike takes 2 actions and you make an unarmed strike; if the strike deals damage, the target has to succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC (based on your Strength or Dex, remember?) or be flat-footed for 1 round, or stupefied 2 if it critically fails. So how do you stun the target? If your strike is a critical hit, the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse, and if it critically fails its save it's stunned for 1 round! At 4th level, you can pick up Deflect Arrow, a reaction that gives you a +4 bonus to AC against a ranged weapon attack, or Flying Kick, which lets you use 2 actions to jump and make a strike at the end of your jump. You can even Long Jump—normally 2 actions—as part of your Flying Kick, potentially moving very far before your strike. Other attacks include Ghost Strike, which lets you use 2 actions to target TAC, or Wall Run, which lets you run up vertical surfaces at your full Speed.

Now what about fighting styles? Let's look at one that starts with the Crane Stance feat at 1st level! A stance takes one action to enter, and can be used only in an encounter. You typically stay in a stance until you enter another stance or get knocked out. In Crane Stance, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and get better at jumping, but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks. What the heck are those? Well, many stances give special unarmed attacks that have statistics much like weapons. Crane wing attacks deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. What if Crane Stance isn't enough? Well, you can pick up Crane Flutter, a reaction that increases your AC against a melee attack and lets you immediately riposte with a crane wing strike at a -4 penalty if the triggering attack misses. Each of the stances in the Playtest Rulebook has one special attack tied to it, but I could see us expanding on them in the future, couldn't you? If you really get into stances, you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns.

Ki

Oh, geez, I'm running long, huh? Let's make this quick. You know how I said there's a role for Wisdom? Well, that's where ki powers come into play. And when I say powers, I mean powers—they're spells just like other powers (such as the wizard's school powers or the cleric's domain powers). You gain access to ki by picking up the first ki power feat, Ki Strike, which gives you a pool of Spell Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, which you can spend to cast ki strike. This power is a Verbal Casting free action you can use when making an unarmed strike to get a +1 bonus to your attack roll. So you let out a shout and hit better!

Now that you have Spell Points, you can expand your repertoire of powers to teleport with Abundant Step, fire a cone of force with a Ki Blast, or kill someone with Quivering Palm. Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2. Let's take a look, and then I'm outta here (probably flying away using the wind jump power)!

Quivering Palm Power 8

Attack, Necromancy
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Duration 1 month

Make a melee unarmed Strike, dealing damage normally. If you succeed and the target is alive, anytime during the duration you can spend a Verbal action to speak a word of death that could instantly slay it, depending on its Fortitude save.

Success The target survives, the spell ends, and the target is bolstered against it.
Failure The target is stunned for 1 round but survives. The spell's duration continues, but the target is bolstered against being killed by quivering palm for 24 hours.
Critical Failure The target dies.

If you cast quivering palm again, any previous quivering palm you had cast ends.

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
601 to 650 of 861 << first < prev | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | next > last >>

Valantrix1 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?

My question is "What is the Opportunity cost of [not] taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?"

'look a creature flying 15' in the air... maybe I can spend 2 actions to high jump and HOPE I roll high enough to hit it with a punch [and not crit fail and look silly damaging myself]. Or I can just meditate until people with ACTUAL ranged attacks finish it off...'

'Oh look, a diseased/poisonous/ect creature... Well I either punch it, since master never trained me up to wizard weapon standards, or I go back to meditating...'

ect...

OK, seriously guys, I think monks should get weapon profiency by default too, but this "even wizards can use simple weapons" meme needs to stop. We have not been told that, and its omission from the wizard blog plus cantrips replacing the need to shoot a crossbow makes me think they probably don't get them.

Given the untrained penalty is only -2 and everyone is adding their full level to attack rolls anyway, there's very little reason to give weapon proficiency to classes or beings that don't actually use weapons. The monk should maybe not fall into that category, but let's stop assuming the wizard is better until we have an indication that they actually are.

Ok, I’m going to comment here. I playtested Ezren at Origins and he was proficient with a staff, dagger, and crossbow. Whether or not he was proficient with other simple weapons, that remains to be seen.

Good to know! I can get the staff, and even the dagger, but the crossbow seems like a weird choice if monks don't also get crossbows.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
Valantrix1 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?

My question is "What is the Opportunity cost of [not] taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?"

'look a creature flying 15' in the air... maybe I can spend 2 actions to high jump and HOPE I roll high enough to hit it with a punch [and not crit fail and look silly damaging myself]. Or I can just meditate until people with ACTUAL ranged attacks finish it off...'

'Oh look, a diseased/poisonous/ect creature... Well I either punch it, since master never trained me up to wizard weapon standards, or I go back to meditating...'

ect...

OK, seriously guys, I think monks should get weapon profiency by default too, but this "even wizards can use simple weapons" meme needs to stop. We have not been told that, and its omission from the wizard blog plus cantrips replacing the need to shoot a crossbow makes me think they probably don't get them.

Given the untrained penalty is only -2 and everyone is adding their full level to attack rolls anyway, there's very little reason to give weapon proficiency to classes or beings that don't actually use weapons. The monk should maybe not fall into that category, but let's stop assuming the wizard is better until we have an indication that they actually are.

Ok, I’m going to comment here. I playtested Ezren at Origins and he was proficient with a staff, dagger, and crossbow. Whether or not he was proficient with other simple weapons, that remains to be seen.

Good to know! I can get the staff, and even the dagger, but the crossbow seems like a weird choice if monks don't also get crossbows.

I'll note that this staff isn't a quarterstaff, which is probably a special type of staff for monks now, but just a "staff". They've already said before that the wizard doesn't go around swinging a 2 handed staff weighted for using both ends in combat, but a 1 handed club like staff weapon.


My friend who was playing Ezren also said that if the staff was wielded in both hands, it dealt 1d8 damage rather than 1d6, but since he didn't have a strength bonus we don't know if it increases damage from multiple hands, either.


MusicAddict wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Valantrix1 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?

My question is "What is the Opportunity cost of [not] taking Monastic Weapons at level 1?"

'look a creature flying 15' in the air... maybe I can spend 2 actions to high jump and HOPE I roll high enough to hit it with a punch [and not crit fail and look silly damaging myself]. Or I can just meditate until people with ACTUAL ranged attacks finish it off...'

'Oh look, a diseased/poisonous/ect creature... Well I either punch it, since master never trained me up to wizard weapon standards, or I go back to meditating...'

ect...

OK, seriously guys, I think monks should get weapon profiency by default too, but this "even wizards can use simple weapons" meme needs to stop. We have not been told that, and its omission from the wizard blog plus cantrips replacing the need to shoot a crossbow makes me think they probably don't get them.

Given the untrained penalty is only -2 and everyone is adding their full level to attack rolls anyway, there's very little reason to give weapon proficiency to classes or beings that don't actually use weapons. The monk should maybe not fall into that category, but let's stop assuming the wizard is better until we have an indication that they actually are.

Ok, I’m going to comment here. I playtested Ezren at Origins and he was proficient with a staff, dagger, and crossbow. Whether or not he was proficient with other simple weapons, that remains to be seen.

Good to know! I can get the staff, and even the dagger, but the crossbow seems like a weird choice if monks don't also get crossbows.
I'll note that this staff isn't a quarterstaff, which is probably a special type of staff for monks now, but just a "staff". They've already said before that the wizard doesn't go around swinging a 2 handed staff weighted for...

I think it was a quarterstaff, being blind I don't fully remember. The staff in question could be used one-handed for 1d4 or two-handed for 1d8. Make of that as you will.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is slightly misleading: It sounds like there will eventually be multiple 'get a Ki Pool' Feats, but you still need to take one of those before any other Ki Feats.

Ye! That's what I was trying to say, sorry for the confusion :3


Benjamin Medrano wrote:
My friend who was playing Ezren also said that if the staff was wielded in both hands, it dealt 1d8 damage rather than 1d6, but since he didn't have a strength bonus we don't know if it increases damage from multiple hands, either.

As I recall, it's a one handed weapon now so you can use it in two hands if you wish but you don't have to.

Ninja'd by Valantrix1 ;)


Yeah, I don't remember how much damage it did one-handed. I didn't get the chance to play Ezren, and no one ever used the staff in-play. I saw the crossbow a couple of times, but mostly I saw burning hands, magic missile, and acid splash.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Captain Morgan wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1? Like are level 1 monk feats pretty much just "establish what you do" so if I wanted to play a stick-fighter, then spending one feat on replicating most of ascetic style doesn't make me vastly worse at things I'm going to want to do eventually, it just defines what I do.
At a glance, Crane Style is the only feat we know is first level. So they are going to be losing out on being able to take an action that gives them +1 AC and jumping buffs.

We're going to need actual rules text to see if those abilities even work together.

Monastic weapons means you can use any abilities which work with unarmed strikes with a weapon.

Crane Style says the only strikes you can make are Crane Wing strikes.

So does the monk with both make Crane Wing strikes which deal bludgeoning damage even if the are using a sword? Or can you choose between sword strikes and Crane Wing strikes?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Insight wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Crikey, flashbacks to 2012.

Yeah, sorry for the derailment. Revisionist history puts my favorite edition into even more of a negative light than it is already amongst enthusiasts. I feel an irrational need to defend it (as you’ll see is common in many hobbies, i.e. PCs versus consoles).

That said, no further sidetracks from me in this thread.

Not alone, my friend *high five*

Still, I'm viewing PF2 by itself, and I'm not seeing any of the mistakes 4e supposedly had or actually had. PF2 will have its own problems. It's an interesting game in of itself, and that's what it matters.
Anyway, specific issues are good, but just saying "it looks like 4e" without having anything to indicate how a particular mechanic is bad or disliked sounds trash. Not saying you did that, but some did.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So I guess my question is- What is the Opportunity cost of taking Monastic Weapons at level 1? Like are level 1 monk feats pretty much just "establish what you do" so if I wanted to play a stick-fighter, then spending one feat on replicating most of ascetic style doesn't make me vastly worse at things I'm going to want to do eventually, it just defines what I do.
At a glance, Crane Style is the only feat we know is first level. So they are going to be losing out on being able to take an action that gives them +1 AC and jumping buffs.

We're going to need actual rules text to see if those abilities even work together.

Monastic weapons means you can use any abilities which work with unarmed strikes with a weapon.

Crane Style says the only strikes you can make are Crane Wing strikes.

So does the monk with both make Crane Wing strikes which deal bludgeoning damage even if the are using a sword? Or can you choose between sword strikes and Crane Wing strikes?

Hmm. That's a fair point actually. If Monastic Weapon doesn't work with style feats, then taking it at first level doesn't really seem to be "cost" whatever benefits Crane Style feats.

I mean, I'd assume there's going to be enough 1st level feats for you to be giving up SOMETHING useful. But I guess we don't know that for sure.

Theoretically, 1st level feats could be like the equivalent of a Heritage feat, or selecting between Vigilante specializations. Essentially determining what path you probably want to take with the rest of your feats. That would feel contrary to the modular nature we are expecting from the game, though.


I imagine there might be an "intended path" for weapon wielding monks, or perhaps even styles which are designed to work with specific classes of weapons. Perhaps not in core, but something like the Darting Viper/Dorn-Dergar Master feats as style feats for those Kusarigama (and similar) wielding monks.


Captain Morgan wrote:
If Monastic Weapon doesn't work with style feats, then taking it at first level doesn't really seem to be "cost" whatever benefits Crane Style feats.

Well, from the text we get that with Monastic Weapons, the monk can use "any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks", and the Crane Wing is an unarmed attack with a set damage.

I assume from the text you can use Crane Wing while using a Monastic Weapon no problem, but looks like the damage will still be the 1d6 set by the Crane Style, like if you hit the enemy with your grip, using the Style's set damage instead of the weapon's.

Just speculation, but that's how I think it will be. We also have to take into account that some of the Blog Posts aren't that well redacted, and they are obviously missing a lot of info, so maybe in the final text all this is explained and obvious how they work together.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Elleth wrote:
Subutai1 wrote:
Elleth wrote:
Unless I've missed something, I'm a little curious as to why an entry feat is needed for ki, rather than simply giving the pool for the first ki power you take (most of the others feat gated higher than ki strike).
They wanted to allow monks without any kind of magic/ki power to exist. So you could build a basic brawler without any kind of sparkles. And from the sounds on how the new archetypes will work, this could not be realized that way.

Ah sorry, I might have been unclear.

I meant being given the pool by the first ki power you take, but not mandating specific entry points. I understand why Ki is optional in general. I can see some cases for gating it by a feat (such as stopping people suddenly taking ki only for quivering palm) but it's a bit harder to see why that should be how it works below high levels, unless there's a balance point I'm unaware of. Maybe it's like pseudo spell progression? So level 1, level 2, level 3... but that would probably burn through your class feats too fast.

Here's what I'd like:

* You can take any basic low level Ki feat as your entry point.
* More powerful Ki feats have "1 Ki feat" as a prerequisite.
* Very powerful Ki feats, like Quivering Palm, have "2 Ki feats" or "3 Ki feats" as a prerequisite.
* Level can still be a prerequisite since that's a thing in this edition.

Cleans it up for me. That way there's multiple entry points, and you don't have someone's first or second Ki feat being kamehameha or one-punch.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Insight wrote:

Well, neither of us know exact revenue figures, here is what we do know:

4e products from the first few years were listed on the best seller lists far higher for far longer than any Pathfinder product then or since. 4e topped the ICV2 industry charts for every year since 2008, except from the time that the D&D next Playtest was first previewed to the release of the 5e PHB (and that one product was enough to retake the number one spot that PF had held for a couple of years while WotC wasn’t releasing any new products).

Per ICV2, Pathfinder outsold D&D4E in about 1/3 of quarters (5/12 quarters to be specific) between 2011 and 2014 (links easily findable on the Pathfinder RPG Wikipedia page). 4E beat them on a yearly basis, sure, but Pathfinder was second in those quarters they weren't first.

Saying 4E outsold them in total during years both were active is certainly true, but acting like Paizo couldn't imagine the money 4E made is not, the amount of money they made over a 4 year period was similar enough that some quarters they were ahead in sales.

In short, my point was not that Pathfinder sold better than 4E, it was that it sold a very similar amount. Slightly lower, sure, but nowhere near 'Paizo wouldn't know what to do with the money' lower.

Insight wrote:

Peak DDI subscriptions dwarfed any of Paizo’s subscriptions and even the sustained annual subscription numbers were higher than Paizo could expect to have for their own products until the very end of 4e’s lifespan (where even the meager 12,000 annual DDI subscriptions still on the books at the end is probably competitive with most of Paizo’s subscriptions).

If Pathfinder eventually caught up with 4e’s lifetime revenues it was only with the benefit of 4 more years of sales. And it’s undeniable that Paizo’s rpg sales are a fraction of WotC’s over the total time frame since 2008 (4e and 5e combined). So I say again, if Paizo “fails” as spectacularly as WotC , they won’t know what to do with all the money.

No, I'm not talking total revenue, I was examining per quarter analyses. And actually, given Pathfinder's ongoing popularity (and the increasing size of Paizo due to their success) it might well currently be selling better now than 4E ever did.

It routinely comes second to D&D 5E in sales even now, and 5E definitely seems to be doing better than 4E did, so Pathfinder's current per year profits as compared to 4E's are impossible to analyze properly, but it wouldn't be wildly surprising if 2017's Pathfinder sales are better than 4E's sales in any individual year (adjusted for inflation).


graystone wrote:
Benjamin Medrano wrote:
My friend who was playing Ezren also said that if the staff was wielded in both hands, it dealt 1d8 damage rather than 1d6, but since he didn't have a strength bonus we don't know if it increases damage from multiple hands, either.

As I recall, it's a one handed weapon now so you can use it in two hands if you wish but you don't have to.

Ninja'd by Valantrix1 ;)

That is a straight duplication of D&D5's "versatile" quarterstaff. (Which is awesome, btw, I really appreciated it.)


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Insight wrote:
...

Forgive me if I'm repeating stuff that has already been said, but I don't know that WotC beating pathfinder only 2/3rds of the time says great things about 4e, given the edge it had in brand name recognition and such.

I don't have anything against 4e; I barely played it or 3.5 and basically just hopped straight into Pathfinder. I don't want to cast aspersions on a game I am not familiar with, so I'm really just talking about market performance. Bad things flourish in the market all the time, and good things lose out. But 4e under performed, and I think if 4e had just been Pathfinder with the D&D logo it probably would have sold more.

I also don't mind if PF2 borrows stuff from 4e, if the things it borrows are good. "It looks like 4e" is just one of a string of meaningless complaints I keep seeing over and over again.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Pathfinder Design Team: "Hey guys, with the new action system making that last attack with a big penalty often isn't worth it, so we're giving classes lots of FEATS and class abilities that let them trade that last attack that probably won't hit anyway for something more useful!"

Monks: "Oh, cool. So what ability do we get in place of making that third attack?"

PDT: "You get Flurry of Blows, which lets you make two attacks at the highest penalty instead of just one!"

Monks: ...

Uh, you could make the Flurry of Blows as your first attack, which would be +0/-4, like doing two attacks, meaning you could move in, get in two attacks, and get out of dodge, something that's not really an option for many classes.

Plus, you could do Flurry of Blows then a Ghost Strike. Three actions, three attacks, but your -8 attack would be against Touch AC. Not amazing against, say, another Monk, which would probably have equal normal AC and Touch, but I'm betting a foe in Full Plate or a Dragon might not have the best Touch AC.

Just some valid options.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yeah, having two actions to play with after two attacks is a very flexible ability for the monk.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Plus, I mean, the "Flurry of Misses" phenomenon was because the core PF1 monk was a 3/4 BAB class with no built-in accuracy boosters.

In PF2, the monk will be essentially full-BAB *and* will add a proficiency bonus on-top of that.

So a 3rd level monk in PF2 with a 18 in their attacking stat would make three attacks at +8/+4/+0 and have an action left over (which could be used to make a 4th +0 attack.) Whereas a 3rd level (core) monk in PF1 with an 18 in their attacking stat would flurry at +5/+5 with no third attack, and could not move before or after attacking.

It is also likely that the unarmed monk magic enhancer will not be twice as expensive as a comparably enhanced magic weapon because of people who are not monks anymore.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Insight wrote:
...

Forgive me if I'm repeating stuff that has already been said, but I don't know that WotC beating pathfinder only 2/3rds of the time says great things about 4e, given the edge it had in brand name recognition and such.

I don't have anything against 4e; I barely played it or 3.5 and basically just hopped straight into Pathfinder. I don't want to cast aspersions on a game I am not familiar with, so I'm really just talking about market performance. Bad things flourish in the market all the time, and good things lose out. But 4e under performed, and I think if 4e had just been Pathfinder with the D&D logo it probably would have sold more.

I also don't mind if PF2 borrows stuff from 4e, if the things it borrows are good. "It looks like 4e" is just one of a string of meaningless complaints I keep seeing over and over again.

the reason this is a concern I have is because if it cribs too much from 4e it's going to be a battle to get my group to even try it. PF1e billed itself as "not-4e" and very cheekily as "True D&D" (through the 3.5 survives thrives advert). Had PF1e not been directly descended from 3.5 my group would not have played it. Starfinder which has more in common with 3.5 then PF2e appears to have was criticised in my group as "being too similar to 4e" (it got a free pass because it's sci fi).

But all this is off-topic because IMO ki powers being spells isn't homogenization in my opinion because so many ki powers were already spells in PF1e


PossibleCabbage wrote:
So a 3rd level monk in PF2 with a 18 in their attacking stat would make three attacks at +8/+4/+0 and have an action left over (which could be used to make a 4th +0 attack.)

And that Ghost Strike (or whatever) that Mark mentioned as perfect to use for final attack to counter "iterative" penalty by targeting Touch AC.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Weather Report wrote:
Insight wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Crikey, flashbacks to 2012.
Yeah, sorry for the derailment. Revisionist history puts my favorite edition into even more of a negative light than it is already amongst enthusiasts.
Yes, but the classic edition warring rhetoric is so old, and laced with propaganda. I mean, it seems if some 4th Ed fans can claim its failure on planetary alignments, they will, anything but the actual game itself, it gets tedious.

It is your opinion that 4e failed. I don’t need to come up with alternate reasons for why 4e failed, because I don’t think it did. 4e May have failed you, but it didn’t fail me. And if this type of attitude persists into PF2, I don’t think it will be healthy for the game.


Honestly, I don't quite care right now which game sold more to Beyouncé fans or whatever. Have stopped caring for that stuff a long time ago.

I just analyze the game as it is and how Paizo presents it. It has been clear to me that Paizo wants PF2 to be a Tactical RPG. That doesn't mean "looks like 4e", that's an entire gamist rules-style :)
I'm particularly happy with this. I'll not shut up other people who don't like it. I just think that saying "it looks like 4e" implying this is automatically bad is not healthy. I could argue better with specific complaints in mind, but not this sort of comparative.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
...

But we can see that in the many quarters that 4e was ahead, the 4e products reached far higher for far longer on the best sellers list than any Pathfinder product has ever reached (even more true for 5e products where they are amongst the best selling books quarter after quarter period). So in those quarters where 4e had very little volume, Pathfinder did jump ahead, aided by their clockwork release schedule (and good production values and loyal fans, no doubt). But the key is that many of the quarters where 4e was ahead (which was most of them), their sales were so far ahead of numbers 2-5 that any of those companies would obviously be envious of the sales numbers.

There are no doubt small movie studies that have occasionally outperformed Disney for a month or 2, but to suggest that those studios (and even some of the larger ones to be honest, like Universal or WB) are not envious of Disney’s total revenue is absurd.

And I agreed that the D&D name brand is a large part of that, and not the rules system itself, but I can also imagine a world where Pathfinder had gained wider mainstream recognition (whether via something like Penny Arcade, or Twitch or a blockbuster movie or video game). But for whatever reason, it hasn’t happened yet. But that Isn’t necessarily a positive fact for Pathfinder when discussing these things.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Let's get back to the Monk.

I'm not a big fan of Ki Strike. It just doesn't excite me much. Would it be too unbalancing to let the monk spend a ki to Flurry twice in a round?

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Folks, please head back to the monk discussion. If you want to have broader discussion about the direction or impact of the playtest and edition upgrade, there are other threads that would be more appropriate or you can create your own. Thanks!


@KingOfAnything: Personally, I think letting monks get another two attacks each round would be too strong. Action Economy is the most valuable resource in the game. One extra attack is good, three is just overwhelming. The lowered accuracy numbers mean the +1 bonus from Ki Strike probably remains more relevant - and remember, it's really just the first in a series of talents. It's not necessarily meant to be as powerful as some later options. ^^


Im kinda curious on ki progression. Like for me personally the only ki power i'd want would be abundant step (cause teleportie monk is fun).

Going by the blog i'd have ki equal to my wisdom from ki strike and then the bonus to ki I'd get from taking the abundant step feat.
Will there be other feats to increase ki widouth having to take ki abilities that I'd never use (mostly out of RP principle)


Imps wrote:

Im kinda curious on ki progression. Like for me personally the only ki power i'd want would be abundant step (cause teleportie monk is fun).

Going by the blog i'd have ki equal to my wisdom from ki strike and then the bonus to ki I'd get from taking the abundant step feat.
Will there be other feats to increase ki widouth having to take ki abilities that I'd never use (mostly out of RP principle)

I'd be pretty surprised if there was no abundant step ki power feat and I think spell point pools may have a component that increases with level.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
GM Rednal wrote:
@KingOfAnything: Personally, I think letting monks get another two attacks each round would be too strong. Action Economy is the most valuable resource in the game. One extra attack is good, three is just overwhelming. The lowered accuracy numbers mean the +1 bonus from Ki Strike probably remains more relevant - and remember, it's really just the first in a series of talents. It's not necessarily meant to be as powerful as some later options. ^^

Not another two attacks, another extra attack for a total of two extra attacks over the standard. My first thought was to add an extra attack to the flurry, allowing three attacks for one action but that seemed crazy. Four attacks in two actions was a little better, maybe?


there is an abundant step power feat it is in the blog. i was talking about how the blog makes it seem that you only get bonus ki from taking ki power feats


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, some observations:

You can effectively choose a path for the Monk starting at the first level using your first feat. You can be a weapons fighter Monk with the Monastic Weaponry, Unarmed fighter Monk with a fighting style feat like Crane Wing Stance, or a Ki fighter Monk with Ki Strike.

Personally, I'm not too big on the Ki feat being a striking move that gives +1 attack bonus. I feel Ki can be more differentiated from the others, perhaps supporting a more supportive style with Ki-based healing, maybe?

Something else I noticed is that, let's say you want to be a Dexerity-based Monk but you also want a lot of Wisdom and use a bunch of Ki abilities. You sorta still get more out of having 18 Dexterity than you do out of 18 Wisdom, since the Ki Strike feat lets you get +1 attack bonus sometimes, but 18 Dexterity gives you +1 attack bonus always and you still get 3 uses of Ki Strike(as opposed to 4), along with all of the other bonuses of the higher Dexterity.

Of course, some of this changes as one increases in level, and there's still a lot of other stuff to consider, but still, hm…

Liberty's Edge

Imps wrote:

Im kinda curious on ki progression. Like for me personally the only ki power i'd want would be abundant step (cause teleportie monk is fun).

Going by the blog i'd have ki equal to my wisdom from ki strike and then the bonus to ki I'd get from taking the abundant step feat.
Will there be other feats to increase ki widouth having to take ki abilities that I'd never use (mostly out of RP principle)

We have no idea if there are other ways to get more Ki. That said, even a moderate Wis of 14 to start with will go to 18 by 10th level, and result in 6 Ki Points. That's 6 Teleports per day, and that's already probably as many as a 10th level PF1 Monk could manage.

So this is at least no worse than PF1.

Meophist wrote:
Something else I noticed is that, let's say you want to be a Dexerity-based Monk but you also want a lot of Wisdom and use a bunch of Ki abilities. You sorta still get more out of having 18 Dexterity than you do out of 18 Wisdom, since the Ki Strike feat lets you get +1 attack bonus sometimes, but 18 Dexterity gives you +1 attack bonus always and you still get 3 uses of Ki Strike(as opposed to 4), along with all of the other bonuses of the higher Dexterity.

Monks can't start with Wis 18 anyway, the only stats you can start with an 18 in as a Monk are Str and Dex.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Something else I noticed is that, let's say you want to be a Dexerity-based Monk but you also want a lot of Wisdom and use a bunch of Ki abilities. You sorta still get more out of having 18 Dexterity than you do out of 18 Wisdom, since the Ki Strike feat lets you get +1 attack bonus sometimes, but 18 Dexterity gives you +1 attack bonus always and you still get 3 uses of Ki Strike(as opposed to 4), along with all of the other bonuses of the higher Dexterity.
Monks can't start with Wis 18 anyway, the only stats you can start with an 18 in as a Monk are Str and Dex.

Ah, right, forgot that you can only get 18 in your key ability.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

We have no idea if there are other ways to get more Ki. That said, even a moderate Wis of 14 to start with will go to 18 by 10th level, and result in 6 Ki Points. That's 6 Teleports per day, and that's already probably as many as a 10th level PF1 Monk could manage.

So this is at least no worse than PF1.

Assuming Abundant Step doesn't take 2 ki points.

Quote:
Monks can't start with Wis 18 anyway, the only stats you can start with an 18 in as a Monk are Str and Dex.

Damn, guess I wont have any 18s until 5th level then on my monk. That's unfortunate, but suppose it makes sense if I'm making a wis focused monk that the scores wont be able to reach as high.


Is anyone else wondering if other/all classes will get a choice of deciding what their key ability is? I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the other class blogs, and while I like the concept here for the Monk (particularly if it means there may later be other key ability options), I would find it kind of odd for one class to have that as a feature and not something proliferated across other classes.

IE, is there a good argument to be made as to why the Monk would warrant this kind of design consideration, as opposed to other classes?


Cthulhudrew wrote:

Is anyone else wondering if other/all classes will get a choice of deciding what their key ability is? I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the other class blogs, and while I like the concept here for the Monk (particularly if it means there may later be other key ability options), I would find it kind of odd for one class to have that as a feature and not something proliferated across other classes.

IE, is there a good argument to be made as to why the Monk would warrant this kind of design consideration, as opposed to other classes?

I can see it as a thing for martial classes, who might not be tied strictly to Str or Dex (though I'd suspect Barbs to be Str only, or maybe Str or Con), but I think from what we saw in the cleric preview (and maybe the wizard?) that indicates casters are tied to the key ability score associated with their casting stat.


Cthulhudrew wrote:

Is anyone else wondering if other/all classes will get a choice of deciding what their key ability is? I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the other class blogs, and while I like the concept here for the Monk (particularly if it means there may later be other key ability options), I would find it kind of odd for one class to have that as a feature and not something proliferated across other classes.

IE, is there a good argument to be made as to why the Monk would warrant this kind of design consideration, as opposed to other classes?

In starfinder most classes have a set ability modifer while the soldier gets Str or Dex. So following that I would expect all casters to get +2 to casting stat, Rogues to get +2 Dex, and everyone else to get two options maybe just Str or Dex since in Starfinder no one gets +2 Con.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Assuming Abundant Step doesn't take 2 ki points.

True. But the only example we have costing two is the equivalent of an 8th level spell. Dimension Door is a 4th level spell. I think it being only one point is a decent bet.

Milo v3 wrote:
Damn, guess I wont have any 18s until 5th level then on my monk. That's unfortunate, but suppose it makes sense if I'm making a wis focused monk that the scores wont be able to reach as high.

A 16 in your primary attack stat seems perfectly workable in PF2.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Is anyone else wondering if other/all classes will get a choice of deciding what their key ability is? I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the other class blogs, and while I like the concept here for the Monk (particularly if it means there may later be other key ability options), I would find it kind of odd for one class to have that as a feature and not something proliferated across other classes.

IE, is there a good argument to be made as to why the Monk would warrant this kind of design consideration, as opposed to other classes?

The only Classes that we've seen with only one key Ability are full casters (who have it in their casting stat). I'd bet that's the general rule: Casters have one, Martials have a choice of two. There may be exceptions to this, but I bet it's how most Classes are.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Assuming Abundant Step doesn't take 2 ki points.

True. But the only example we have costing two is the equivalent of an 8th level spell. Dimension Door is a 4th level spell. I think it being only one point is a decent bet.

Milo v3 wrote:
Damn, guess I wont have any 18s until 5th level then on my monk. That's unfortunate, but suppose it makes sense if I'm making a wis focused monk that the scores wont be able to reach as high.

A 16 in your primary attack stat seems perfectly workable in PF2.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Is anyone else wondering if other/all classes will get a choice of deciding what their key ability is? I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the other class blogs, and while I like the concept here for the Monk (particularly if it means there may later be other key ability options), I would find it kind of odd for one class to have that as a feature and not something proliferated across other classes.

IE, is there a good argument to be made as to why the Monk would warrant this kind of design consideration, as opposed to other classes?

The only Classes that we've seen with only one key Ability are full casters (who have it in their casting stat). I'd bet that's the general rule: Casters have one, Martials have a choice of two. There may be exceptions to this, but I bet it's how most Classes are.

I would actually prefer for casters to be more MAD as well. Clerics have an obvious thing with Charisma. Sorcerers and Druids are natural for Constitution. Wizards seem a good fit for Cha or Wis depending on if they're tricksy enchanters and summoners or sagely diviners and the like. Bards could go Dex or Int as a secondary, tbh. And so on~

Shadow Lodge

Meophist wrote:
Ah, right, forgot that you can only get 18 in your key ability.

where was this mentioned?...this is the first i've heard of it...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

OK, so monks get a lot of abilities to beat people up with, but what can they do out of combat? I don't see a single non-combat ability in the preview.


nohar wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Ah, right, forgot that you can only get 18 in your key ability.
where was this mentioned?...this is the first i've heard of it...

I don't know if it's been expressly mentioned anywhere, but based on what we've seen so far, you can have:

+2 to three ability scores, -2 to one, from your race (and likely +2 to two if you're human)
+2 to two ability scores, from your background
+2 to one ability score, based on your key ability, from your class
and +2 to four ability scores freely chosen at 1st level.

This gives, at max

18/16/14/12/10/8, though other combinations are possible.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
deuxhero wrote:
OK, so monks get a lot of abilities to beat people up with, but what can they do out of combat? I don't see a single non-combat ability in the preview.

You can punch things out of combat... :P As a bonus, those -8's don't matter if the target is a door.

Liberty's Edge

nohar wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Ah, right, forgot that you can only get 18 in your key ability.
where was this mentioned?...this is the first i've heard of it...

It's inherent in the way stats are determined in PF2, which has 4 phases:

Ancestry - +2 to two set stats, floating +2, -2 to one set stat (or +2 to 2 floating stats for Humans, probably)
Background - +2 to two stats
Class - +2 to one stat
First Ability Up - +2 to any four stats

And that's it. But since you can't raise any individual stat more than once per phase and there are only four phases, getting an 18 requires you to enhance it in every single phase. And thus to get a bonus to it from Class.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah, well.


deuxhero wrote:
OK, so monks get a lot of abilities to beat people up with, but what can they do out of combat? I don't see a single non-combat ability in the preview.

I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing Skill feats are the main way for out of combat ability. But there might be some Tongue of Sun and Moon, ect things for the monk, but I think most of it will be skill feats.

And I can definitely see why that might not be enough, but one of my issues with 1e is that non-combat and combat options competed for the same resources, and I enjoy that 2e is attempting to solve this problem.

Liberty's Edge

deuxhero wrote:
OK, so monks get a lot of abilities to beat people up with, but what can they do out of combat? I don't see a single non-combat ability in the preview.

Fighter and Barbarian don't really list any of these either. They get Skill Feats, as do Monks, because everyone does, but the Classes themselves seem to give you little beyond those for your out of combat needs.

This appears standard for 'combat heavy' classes in PF2. And may well be reasonable depending on how far the Skill Feats you get go (something we know very little about so far).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would assume that the monk's non-combat abilities beyond skill feats are about "getting around". Like if your full speed is enormous, and you can run up vertical surfaces, then you can get on top of stuff faster than climbing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Long jumping can be handy too. Clearing obstacles without burning spell slots. A dex focused monk with all those mobility options makes for an excellent sneaky scout. But as others mentioned, skill feats will be the big thing.

On key abilities: I wonder what they will do for the Paladin. The obvious key stats are strength and charisma, but if someone wants to make a dex based paladin they need that. But dex and strength only feels wrong. Then again, I would have said not including wisdom as an option for the monk would have felt wrong before the preview.

601 to 650 of 861 << first < prev | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Paizo Blog: Monk Class Preview All Messageboards