Monk Class Preview

Monday, June 18, 2018

Some players love to play monks so they can strive toward enlightenment. Others just like to punch stuff!

Monk Features

Monks choose whether their key ability is Strength or Dexterity, which will determine the DC of some of their abilities. Their selection of initial proficiencies looks pretty different from most classes! First off, they have expert proficiency in all their saving throws. Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks. They also get powerful fist, which increases the damage die of their fists and lets them make lethal strikes without penalty when using normally nonlethal unarmed attacks. Further, they're untrained in armor, but get graceful expertise at 1st level, which gives them expert proficiency in unarmored defense (everybody else is only trained).

They get one last class feature at 1st level, of course: Flurry of Blows! This is a single action that can be used once per round to make two strikes using an unarmed attack. If both hit, their damage is combined. Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4 penalty (since a fist is agile). Flurry of Blows is a huge advantage, letting the monk attack up to four times in a round, or letting the monk have plenty of actions to move and attack in a single turn. Speaking of moving, at 3rd level, a monk gains incredible movement, increasing his speed as long as he's not wearing armor. This starts at a 10-foot increase, and it goes up by 5 feet every 3 levels.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Because monks can defend themselves in so many different ways, we wanted to let the monk pick how his saving throws improve. His saves increase at 7th level through the path to perfection class feature, which lets him increase a save's proficiency rank to master. The second path to perfection, at 11th level, lets a monk treat any successful save as a critical success instead, as long as he has master proficiency in that save. The monk gets his third path to perfection at 15th level, which he can use to either increase his proficiency rank in another save to master proficiency or progress his proficiency at a save in which he's already a master to legendary.

The monk's unarmored defense proficiency also goes up as he levels, first to master at 13th level and then to legendary at 17th. You'll notice that monks no longer add their Wisdom modifiers to AC, which is due to a few factors. First, depending on the monk's Dexterity modifier, the gulf between a heavily armored character and a monk without armor is extremely low, so adding even more bonuses would put the monk really far ahead. Second, adding more than a single ability modifier to a check or DC now really distorts the game. Third, we have another role for Wisdom to play in the class, and wanted it to be optional so monks aren't dependent on many different ability scores, giving you more flexibility with how you can build a monk character.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk's unarmed attacks get better as he levels up. Magic strikes, at 3rd level, makes the monk's unarmed attacks magical, and increases his proficiency rank to expert. At 5th level, metal strikes causes them to be treated as cold iron and silver; at 17th level, adamantine strikes makes them act as adamantine. Fierce flurry, at 9th level, increases the damage dice of a Flurry of Blows by one step whenever both strikes hit. At 19th level, the monk has developed perfected form, meaning that when he makes an unarmed attack, he can treat any die roll lower than 10 as if he had rolled a 10! This lets the monk plow through weaker enemies who can't handle his immaculate fighting style, and against bosses, he can even turn a good number of misses into hits.

Monk Feats

A monk's feats let him expand how he can attack, teach him special martial arts techniques, let him develop an entire fighting style, or use magic called ki (which we explain in the Ki section).

Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons. This is how Sajan gets to use that sweet temple sword! If you'd rather stick with punches, kicks, knees, and headbutts, take a look at Brawling Focus at 4th level, which gives you the critical specialization effect for anything in the brawling weapon group. This means if you critically hit with your unarmed attacks, the target might be slowed 1 on its next turn, losing 1 action.

Some of the special attacks you can learn include Stunning Fist, a great option if you're looking to recreate your Pathfinder First Edition monk. A Stunning Fist strike takes 2 actions and you make an unarmed strike; if the strike deals damage, the target has to succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC (based on your Strength or Dex, remember?) or be flat-footed for 1 round, or stupefied 2 if it critically fails. So how do you stun the target? If your strike is a critical hit, the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse, and if it critically fails its save it's stunned for 1 round! At 4th level, you can pick up Deflect Arrow, a reaction that gives you a +4 bonus to AC against a ranged weapon attack, or Flying Kick, which lets you use 2 actions to jump and make a strike at the end of your jump. You can even Long Jump—normally 2 actions—as part of your Flying Kick, potentially moving very far before your strike. Other attacks include Ghost Strike, which lets you use 2 actions to target TAC, or Wall Run, which lets you run up vertical surfaces at your full Speed.

Now what about fighting styles? Let's look at one that starts with the Crane Stance feat at 1st level! A stance takes one action to enter, and can be used only in an encounter. You typically stay in a stance until you enter another stance or get knocked out. In Crane Stance, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and get better at jumping, but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks. What the heck are those? Well, many stances give special unarmed attacks that have statistics much like weapons. Crane wing attacks deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. What if Crane Stance isn't enough? Well, you can pick up Crane Flutter, a reaction that increases your AC against a melee attack and lets you immediately riposte with a crane wing strike at a -4 penalty if the triggering attack misses. Each of the stances in the Playtest Rulebook has one special attack tied to it, but I could see us expanding on them in the future, couldn't you? If you really get into stances, you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns.

Ki

Oh, geez, I'm running long, huh? Let's make this quick. You know how I said there's a role for Wisdom? Well, that's where ki powers come into play. And when I say powers, I mean powers—they're spells just like other powers (such as the wizard's school powers or the cleric's domain powers). You gain access to ki by picking up the first ki power feat, Ki Strike, which gives you a pool of Spell Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, which you can spend to cast ki strike. This power is a Verbal Casting free action you can use when making an unarmed strike to get a +1 bonus to your attack roll. So you let out a shout and hit better!

Now that you have Spell Points, you can expand your repertoire of powers to teleport with Abundant Step, fire a cone of force with a Ki Blast, or kill someone with Quivering Palm. Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2. Let's take a look, and then I'm outta here (probably flying away using the wind jump power)!

Quivering Palm Power 8

Attack, Necromancy
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Duration 1 month

Make a melee unarmed Strike, dealing damage normally. If you succeed and the target is alive, anytime during the duration you can spend a Verbal action to speak a word of death that could instantly slay it, depending on its Fortitude save.

Success The target survives, the spell ends, and the target is bolstered against it.
Failure The target is stunned for 1 round but survives. The spell's duration continues, but the target is bolstered against being killed by quivering palm for 24 hours.
Critical Failure The target dies.

If you cast quivering palm again, any previous quivering palm you had cast ends.

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I like what's been done with the class here - the base is an unarmored martial-arts character with above-average saves and the ability to attack and move faster than others, which is what's kind of always been at the core of the class. The Unchained Monk's style strikes coupled with style feat chains gives a good basis for the martial aspects of monks while the opt-in Ki feats means you don't have to be supernatural if you don't want to. I knew I was going to want to make a Monk in PF2, but now I'm really interested in how it turns out!

I've already gone and requested the day off, now if only August 2nd could just come faster...

Paizo Employee Designer

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Bardarok wrote:
Stupefied also seems like an odd choice since it doesn't fit a progression from flat footed->stupefied->stunned. Unless the second step is flat footed AND stupefied.

Yes, it should say that they're both flat-footed and stupefied.


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TheFinish wrote:
First of all, absolutely no weapon proficiencies without spending a feat is just horrible. It's just a Feat Tax for people not wanting to play a punchy monk.

Well, that feat doesn't just give you proficiency, it also makes all of your unarmed fighting bonuses apply to those weapons, something which used to cost 4 feats.


Tholomyes wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
If they crit fail, they're stunned. If you crit on your attacj, their save is treated as one step worse. So if you crit on your attack and they regular fail their save, it counts as a critical fail. If you crit on the attack and they succeed on the save, then it counts as a regular fail.
That isn't how it reads. If you crit fail, they're stupified. You'd have to crit, and have them crit fail for them to be stunned... All in all, as an attack no longer limited in rounds per day, I don't mind if it gets nerfed accordingly, but this seems a little much.

You're still ignoring the "the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse" function. Regular failure is treated as Critical Failure. Only difference of "real" Crit Failure vs "upgraded" Crit Failure is "real" one can counter a target ability to downgrade Save Failures. And like you say, you can throw these out all day long, and probably will be doing so alot given choice of 1 Stunning Fist vs. 2 attacks at -4/-8, for example.


Souhiro wrote:

There's something I find odd, re-reading this.

Should Fighter (And since I think it's a feat, I suppose that Monk, Paladin, and Ranger too) want to use Power Attack in order to increase damage, they have to spent their actions.
BUT rogues can add sneak damage, without extra action expenditure? And they can even dual-wield, and add sneak attack MANY TIMES?

/GodRogueEdition


Best playtest blog at all! You did it well, Logan!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Been looking forward to this


I assume monks can't get dex to damage then?

Not that it hugely matters the way abilities increase now scores can end up being much closer to each other.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really hope I didn't just read that styles are now locked to Monks exclusively as a set of "feats".

That's a major blow to my interest. The style feats are probably the most fun I've had in the game, and turning them into monk-only abilities? I seriously hate that change. Make monks better at using them, sure. Make them the only ones capable of using them? God no.


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"you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns."

Are free actions still a thing in this new action economy? I had thought free/swift actions were simply replaced with "reactions" based on a previous blog.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I think Flurry of Blows might lead to more mobile monks. The favored tactic at low levels might come to be to move in, flurry for two attacks, then back off to let more heavily armored or shielded allies take the hits.

I'm all for more mobile monks, but I think their AC at the moment is looking a bit anemic even using this strategy.

How so? Being 1-2 points behind in AC doesn't matter as much when you can avoid being the target of attacks.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
-Poison- wrote:

"you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns."

Are free actions still a thing in this new action economy? I had thought free/swift actions were simply replaced with "reactions" based on a previous blog.

Immediate actions would become reactions, not free/swift. Most swift actions seem to be just regular actions now, but free actions are still a thing.

Paizo Employee

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Anecdotally, the monk that I played in Mark's playtest games actually prioritized his stats at STR>WIS>CON>DEX/CHA>INT since he wanted to hit hard and use a bunch of ki powers. He had some spectacular damage using Dragon Style and really amazing mobility with Incredible Movement, Flying Kick (which I described as more of a flying shoulder tackle since Cobra was supposed to be a really big dude), and wind jump. While he did take quite a beating in certain fights, he actually survived the fight that killed Luis' fighter Randyll and pretty much "tanked" the last half of that fight after Luis went down (while dealing with the fearsome monster that Luis' corpse turned into no less!). His deep hit points, ki powers, and some clever positioning allowed him to really hold the line and deal some really punishing amounts of damage, and he performed really solidly out of combat as well with some fun skill feats. Using his first path to perfection on his Reflex meant that he had really strong and balanced saves, so if I recall correctly he only failed a saving throw on two occasions over about 3 levels of play (8th through 10th), and only critically failed once on a really bad roll.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
I think Flurry of Blows might lead to more mobile monks. The favored tactic at low levels might come to be to move in, flurry for two attacks, then back off to let more heavily armored or shielded allies take the hits.

I'm all for more mobile monks, but I think their AC at the moment is looking a bit anemic even using this strategy.

How so? Being 1-2 points behind in AC doesn't matter as much when you can avoid being the target of attacks.

1 or 2 points behind a Fighter would be fine. 1 or 2 points behind a Rogue isn't.

Envoy's Alliance

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Wait, wait, huh . . . what? Powerful fist only increases the damage die of my fists, so if I want to elbow dudes, wield the Knee of Justice, or just use Flying Kick to do, y'know, a kick, I'll only be dealing a d4 damage die??

What happened to PF1's monk unarmed strike damage specifically saying that you can deal monk damage dice with other body parts so you don't need a free hand?

Liberty's Edge

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-Poison- wrote:

"you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns."

Are free actions still a thing in this new action economy? I had thought free/swift actions were simply replaced with "reactions" based on a previous blog.

No, Free Actions remain, though they're rarer.

KingOfAnything wrote:
How so? Being 1-2 points behind in AC doesn't matter as much when you can avoid being the target of attacks.

Three things:

1. It keeps people from attacking you too many times, but their first attack is the one it matters most on due to crits and they can almost certainly get one attack.

2. Ranged attacks. Sure, Deflect Arrows helps with this...if you have it.

3. AoO are still a thing. They're no longer universal, but they do exist, and make this tactic not universally applicable.

Secret Wizard wrote:
1 or 2 points behind a Fighter would be fine. 1 or 2 points behind a Rogue isn't.

This is also a factor.


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Quandary wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
If they crit fail, they're stunned. If you crit on your attacj, their save is treated as one step worse. So if you crit on your attack and they regular fail their save, it counts as a critical fail. If you crit on the attack and they succeed on the save, then it counts as a regular fail.
That isn't how it reads. If you crit fail, they're stupified. You'd have to crit, and have them crit fail for them to be stunned... All in all, as an attack no longer limited in rounds per day, I don't mind if it gets nerfed accordingly, but this seems a little much.
You're still ignoring the "the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse" function. Regular failure is treated as Critical Failure. Only difference of "real" Crit Failure vs "upgraded" Crit Failure is "real" one can counter a target ability to downgrade Save Failures. And like you say, you can throw these out all day long, and probably will be doing so alot given choice of 1 Stunning Fist vs. 2 attacks at -4/-8, for example.

The stun is essentially critical critical failure, essentially its effects chart looks like this:

Success (they crit succeed and you crit attack, or they just succeed and you normal attacked): nothing happens.

Failure (critical attack and a successful save, normal attack and failed save, failed save with save prof boosting to success and crit attack): they're flat-footed 1

Critical failure (crit fail save and normal attack, crit attack and failed save): stupefied 2

Critical critical failure (crit fail save and crit attack): stunned 1


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It would be nice to see an option for Wis to AC instead of Dex.
Then a Str Monk interested in Ki powers doesn't go MAD or tank their AC.
A Fighter dip for heavy armor shouldn't be so tempting...

Also, shuriken. I want them to be viable.

And what about maneuvers?


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Ssalarn wrote:
Anecdotally, the monk that I played in Mark's playtest games actually prioritized his stats at STR>WIS>CON>DEX/CHA>INT since he wanted to hit hard and use a bunch of ki powers. He had some spectacular damage using Dragon Style and really amazing mobility with Incredible Movement, Flying Kick (which I described as more of a flying shoulder tackle since Cobra was supposed to be a really big dude), and wind jump. While he did take quite a beating in certain fights, he actually survived the fight that killed Luis' fighter Randyll and pretty much "tanked" the last half of that fight after Luis went down (while dealing with the fearsome monster that Luis' corpse turned into no less!). His deep hit points, ki powers, and some clever positioning allowed him to really hold the line and deal some really punishing amounts of damage, and he performed really solidly out of combat as well with some fun skill feats. Using his first path to perfection on his Reflex meant that he had really strong and balanced saves, so if I recall correctly he only failed a saving throw on two occasions over about 3 levels of play (8th through 10th), and only critically failed once on a really bad roll.

Sounds to me like a STR-based defensive action should be in there somewhere to pad out the squishiness.


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Castilliano wrote:

It would be nice to see an option for Wis to AC instead of Dex.

Then a Str Monk interested in Ki powers doesn't go MAD or tank their AC.
A Fighter dip for heavy armor shouldn't be so tempting...

Oh god yes. Replacing DEX for INT/WIS/CHA would be super fun.


Quandary wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
If they crit fail, they're stunned. If you crit on your attacj, their save is treated as one step worse. So if you crit on your attack and they regular fail their save, it counts as a critical fail. If you crit on the attack and they succeed on the save, then it counts as a regular fail.
That isn't how it reads. If you crit fail, they're stupified. You'd have to crit, and have them crit fail for them to be stunned... All in all, as an attack no longer limited in rounds per day, I don't mind if it gets nerfed accordingly, but this seems a little much.
You're still ignoring the "the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse" function. Regular failure is treated as Critical Failure. Only difference of "real" Crit Failure vs "upgraded" Crit Failure is "real" one can counter a target ability to downgrade Save Failures. And like you say, you can throw these out all day long, and probably will be doing so alot given choice of 1 Stunning Fist vs. 2 attacks at -4/-8, for example.

I don't think it works that way, it's treated as one degree worse, but the way it's worded implies that you would not just have to fail but critically fail, following a critical hit. A regular fail would be treated as a non-crit critical fail, and a regular success would be treated as a non-crit fail, but those are still just fails and successes.


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I'm worried with the Str and Dex choice.

Str bigger damage, and lower AC -> dead in every battle
Dex lower damage, higher AC -> fast kid punching

Liberty's Edge

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Sounds to me like a STR-based defensive action should be in there somewhere to pad out the squishiness.

Or Wis based, yeah.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

It would be nice to see an option for Wis to AC instead of Dex.

Then a Str Monk interested in Ki powers doesn't go MAD or tank their AC.
A Fighter dip for heavy armor shouldn't be so tempting...
Oh god yes. Replacing DEX for INT/WIS/CHA would be super fun.

This is also a solid option I'm in support of (for AC only).


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Belial__ wrote:

I'm worried with the Str and Dex choice.

Str bigger damage, and lower AC -> dead in every battle
Dex lower damage, higher AC -> fast kid punching

Flurry of glass shards vs flurry of tickles

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
How so? Being 1-2 points behind in AC doesn't matter as much when you can avoid being the target of attacks.

Three things:

1. It keeps people from attacking you too many times, but their first attack is the one it matters most on due to crits and they can almost certainly get one attack.

2. Ranged attacks. Sure, Deflect Arrows helps with this...if you have it.

3. AoO are still a thing. They're no longer universal, but they do exist, and make this tactic not universally applicable.

Having allies helps with both 1 and 3. You gotta play around your team and position well to give enemies hard choices.

Ranged attacks will still be hard to deal with. Extra speed helps to close with attackers or find cover, though.

Paizo Employee

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Anecdotally, the monk that I played in Mark's playtest games actually prioritized his stats at STR>WIS>CON>DEX/CHA>INT since he wanted to hit hard and use a bunch of ki powers. He had some spectacular damage using Dragon Style and really amazing mobility with Incredible Movement, Flying Kick (which I described as more of a flying shoulder tackle since Cobra was supposed to be a really big dude), and wind jump. While he did take quite a beating in certain fights, he actually survived the fight that killed Luis' fighter Randyll and pretty much "tanked" the last half of that fight after Luis went down (while dealing with the fearsome monster that Luis' corpse turned into no less!). His deep hit points, ki powers, and some clever positioning allowed him to really hold the line and deal some really punishing amounts of damage, and he performed really solidly out of combat as well with some fun skill feats. Using his first path to perfection on his Reflex meant that he had really strong and balanced saves, so if I recall correctly he only failed a saving throw on two occasions over about 3 levels of play (8th through 10th), and only critically failed once on a really bad roll.
Sounds to me like a STR-based defensive action should be in there somewhere to pad out the squishiness.

Given that Cobra went with a build that was pretty specifically dropping AC for power and was still consistently surviving above-tier fights that were dropping his armored companions, I don't know that I would come to that conclusion.


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The good: Less MAD monks.

The bad: Everything else.

Sounds like the monk is going to be bleeding actions just to do stuff that they used to do for free.

Stunning Fist requiring both a critical hit and a critical failure on the save just to stun is BAD.

"Flurry of Blows" gives the monk ONE extra hit per round. That's not a flurry, that's one extra hit.

No more WIS to AC hurts, but I get the reasoning. Maybe allow Monks to add DEX OR WIS to AC? As it stands, they are likely going to be noticeably less tanky than Paladins and on par with anyone else proficient in armor.

Rant:
My only issue is that this appears to be a common problem with the new edition, and therefore, the "patch" should have been made elsewhere. (In other words, fix what causes stacking Attributes to be too strong, don't prohibit stacking attributes.) My fear is that the issue is in the core +level to everything mechanic, which appears to be fast becoming the best example of "one size fits all, doesn't".

I get that +level to everything makes "balancing things MUCH easier, but it seems to be costing the game too much in other areas.

In the words of my college physics professor, "Life is full of quick, easy, and intuitive answers, and they are almost always wrong."

If DEX Monks get DEX to damage, STR Monks are borderline useless. (Maybe if you want to focus on STR based skills?) You could have fixed the MAD for monks by JUST giving them DEX to damage.

I get the feeling that the PF2 monk used to be really awesome, but you guys found it to be too powerful, so you nerfed it into the ground. Now it's just plain bad.

To be fair, I haven't seen it in action, so I could be wrong, but this leaves a REALLY bad taste in my mouth.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
TheFinish wrote:
First of all, absolutely no weapon proficiencies without spending a feat is just horrible. It's just a Feat Tax for people not wanting to play a punchy monk.
Well, that feat doesn't just give you proficiency, it also makes all of your unarmed fighting bonuses apply to those weapons, something which used to cost 4 feats.

I count 3 unless I'm messing something. Still that's pretty bad and it only applied to 1 weapon you picked(Though Weapon Focus is a decent feat)


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KingOfAnything wrote:

Having allies helps with both 1 and 3. You gotta play around your team and position well to give enemies hard choices.

Ranged attacks will still be hard to deal with. Extra speed helps to close with attackers or find cover, though.

Again, being a category below Rogues and requiring team help to work is reminiscent of the Monk's state in PF1 upon release.

Ssalarn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Anecdotally, the monk that I played in Mark's playtest games actually prioritized his stats at STR>WIS>CON>DEX/CHA>INT since he wanted to hit hard and use a bunch of ki powers. He had some spectacular damage using Dragon Style and really amazing mobility with Incredible Movement, Flying Kick (which I described as more of a flying shoulder tackle since Cobra was supposed to be a really big dude), and wind jump. While he did take quite a beating in certain fights, he actually survived the fight that killed Luis' fighter Randyll and pretty much "tanked" the last half of that fight after Luis went down (while dealing with the fearsome monster that Luis' corpse turned into no less!). His deep hit points, ki powers, and some clever positioning allowed him to really hold the line and deal some really punishing amounts of damage, and he performed really solidly out of combat as well with some fun skill feats. Using his first path to perfection on his Reflex meant that he had really strong and balanced saves, so if I recall correctly he only failed a saving throw on two occasions over about 3 levels of play (8th through 10th), and only critically failed once on a really bad roll.
Sounds to me like a STR-based defensive action should be in there somewhere to pad out the squishiness.
Given that Cobra went with a build that was pretty specifically dropping AC for power and was still consistently surviving above-tier fights that were dropping his armored companions, I don't know that I would come to that conclusion.

What tipped me off was your mention of "clever positioning". Sounds to me like this was a high skill player, and my concern is seeing players send STR Monks to their deaths right away.

So, I argue that some padding is needed so the skill floor isn't that high.

Perhaps when you pick STR you get +1 AC and when you pick DEX you get +1 damage?

thflame wrote:
If DEX Monks get DEX to damage, STR Monks are borderline useless. (Maybe if you want to focus on STR based skills?) You could have fixed the MAD for monks by JUST giving them DEX to damage.

Give me death before DEX Monks.


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Quandary wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Mechalibur wrote:
If they crit fail, they're stunned. If you crit on your attacj, their save is treated as one step worse. So if you crit on your attack and they regular fail their save, it counts as a critical fail. If you crit on the attack and they succeed on the save, then it counts as a regular fail.
That isn't how it reads. If you crit fail, they're stupified. You'd have to crit, and have them crit fail for them to be stunned... All in all, as an attack no longer limited in rounds per day, I don't mind if it gets nerfed accordingly, but this seems a little much.
You're still ignoring the "the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse" function. Regular failure is treated as Critical Failure.

Right, and the critical failure effect is being flat footed and stupefied. That means

If you hit normally
Success: No effect
Failure: Flat-footed
Crit failure: Flat-footed and stupefied

If you crit
Crit success: No effect
Success: Flat-footed
Failure: Flat-footed and stupefied
Crit failure: Stunned.


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Stunning Fist now uses STR/DEX for DC instead of WIS. That's alot more failed Saves.

Grand Lodge

I like to see the emphasis on different styles feeling different.

I'm actually a little conflicted about the monks having the same AC as other characters. Removing the old paradigm of a monk having to overcome his big weakness of a low AC will take a little bit to get used to.


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Hmm. Not seeing any mention of alignment or anathema or did I just miss it?


Secret Wizard wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

It would be nice to see an option for Wis to AC instead of Dex.

Then a Str Monk interested in Ki powers doesn't go MAD or tank their AC.
A Fighter dip for heavy armor shouldn't be so tempting...
Oh god yes. Replacing DEX for INT/WIS/CHA would be super fun.

Guided Hand Monk, pls make a return


What? So is the new AC higher or lower in the end? (compared to rogue in both editions)


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Temperans wrote:
What? So is the new AC higher or lower in the end? (compared to rogue in both editions)

Comparing to previous editions is misleading.

Seems like the Monk is below the Rogue in total AC if they go DEX by 1 KAC, and by more if they go STR.

Shadow Lodge

Varun Creed wrote:

Calling it..

Ki Powers give me a strong feeling on how we'll see Kineticist Wild Talents implemented. *_*

And Blasts will be like powerful Cantrips.
Wild Talents are like Ki Powers.

I do hope they'll keep the Con/HP burn mechanic.

I just hope the powers and blasts aren't based on expending those spell points. Kineticists could go all day every day and have a resource pool other than burn and hit points does not do that well.


Tholomyes wrote:
thflame wrote:
If DEX Monks get DEX to damage, STR Monks are borderline useless. (Maybe if you want to focus on STR based skills?) You could have fixed the MAD for monks by JUST giving them DEX to damage.

I agree with everything except this. Based on the way damage scales in 2e, I can see a STR monk still being valuable for damage over the Dex monk, but I think the issue isn't Dex to Damage, it's that their solution to MADness doesn't really solve MADness. The way I see it, I feel like Monks should basically have two stats that they rely on between Dex, Str and Wis, while the others have their usual benefits but no strict class synergy. The issue is that, while this works for Dex and Wis, there isn't really any synergy that we can see that can have anyone disregard Dex. Without Dex to damage, monks would be no less MAD, but they'd all be equally MAD.

Some of the Solutions presented (Wis replacing Dex for AC, for Str-Wis monks) work well, but I feel like they need to make sure that all three of Str-Wis, Dex-Wis and Str-Dex (ki-less) monks work well and feel distinct.

Also STR/INT inspiration monks plz.

Liberty's Edge

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Temperans wrote:
What? So is the new AC higher or lower in the end? (compared to rogue in both editions)

Comparing to previous editions is misleading.

Seems like the Monk is below the Rogue in total AC if they go DEX by 1 KAC, and by more if they go STR.

They may well catch up with Rogue eventually (due to increasing Proficiency) if Dex based...but not until 13th level at the earliest. Which is less than helpful in many ways.

They do not catch up with Fighter even then.

Paizo Employee

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Secret Wizard wrote:


What tipped me off was your mention of "clever positioning". Sounds to me like this was a high skill player, and my concern is seeing players send STR Monks to their deaths right away.

"Clever positioning" was something that wasn't super relevant until the action economy got flipped on the party by an enemy who got to add minions whenever a party member was killed, at which point Cobra was doing the job of two characters in a situation that was stacked against them more than is common for a typical Pathfinder game.

I don't know that many players are going to look at the Monk class and think "Huh, what if I played this unarmored guy with a starting Dex of 10?", but I suppose that's what the playtest is for. Dex wasn't even a tertiary stat for Cobra, so anyone who isn't specifically avoiding putting points in Dex will likely end up with a higher AC by at least a point, probably several points.


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thflame wrote:
"Flurry of Blows" gives the monk ONE extra hit per round. That's not a flurry, that's one extra hit.

Everything about Monk in 2E seems a bit underwhelming/nerfed, doesn't it?

Even compared to other martials, i'm not seeing much here that's comparable to the exciting buffs martials got in 2E or that reminds me of Unchained Monk, like Unchained Flurry of Blows.

Even if the damage die progression for fists were to be nerfed in order to balance, being able to hit 6 times during a round (taking away the 1-round limit on 2E FoB) at a high level for say 0/0/-4/-4/-8/-8 would fit much more in-line with the ability and satisfaction of a Flurry of Blows.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:


They do not catch up with Fighter even then.

Monk feels like a lot of investment for, honestly, nothing spectacular or noteworthy like Rogue gets.


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I really like how flexible the Monk in P2e seems to be, especially with Wisdom being pretty optional now!

I would really like to see what the status is on their alignment restrictions, like a few others in here. Beyond mechanics, one of the reasons why I wasn't particularly fond of the Monk in P1e was the fact that they had to be Lawful, and it would be a relief to hear if they were instead bound by anathemas that the player could choose, much like the Barbarian Totem anathemas but perhaps stricter.

I never really vibed with the notion that Lawful=Disciplined inherently, because it's entirely possible for Neutral or even Chaotic characters to be disciplined in regards to their physical and spiritual training.


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thflame wrote:
"Flurry of Blows" gives the monk ONE extra hit per round. That's not a flurry, that's one extra hit.

That's at low levels, and a low level PF1 monk didn't get a ton of extra attacks either. I expect there will be class abilities or feats at higher levels to flurry more than once per round. That's how TWF etc worked in unchained action economy, after all.

Temperans wrote:
What? So is the new AC higher or lower in the end? (compared to rogue in both editions)

Lower than the rogue in this edition. So, basically as bad as you can be at AC without being a wizard.

Quandary wrote:
Stunning Fist now uses STR/DEX for DC instead of WIS. That's alot more failed Saves.

You keep missing the part where you can't actually stun them unless you critically hit AND they critically fail their save. So sure, more failed saves, but unless the target is a caster (pretty rare) all you do is flat-foot them.


It's tough for me to make a judgement call here without seeing the class in action. Not knowing how often critical hits/failures tend to happen makes it difficult to judge how useful certain abilities actually are.

One sort of build I've always wanted to try in PF1 is a "one punch" style character, focusing everything into one big attack each round. PF1 isn't really a great system for that, since iterative are so important, so how viable might this be for a monk PF2?

Could one build a "caster" monk that gets most of their damage from ki abilities?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:


First of all, absolutely no weapon proficiencies without spending a feat is just horrible. It's just a Feat Tax for people not wanting to play a punchy monk.

I agree with this, having to spend my first level Feat to be able to use a Bo staff is more than a little disappointing

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Since monks use kicks, punches, elbows, headbutts, etc. could we re-name all of their abilities to not use the word "fist"? They're all unarmed strikes, so instead of powerful fist, can we have powerful strike, and have stunning strike instead of stunning fist, etc?

Have to agree that stunning fist doesn't seem very stunning anymore. Either re-name it or make stunning a more likely result. Having it only happen on a crit hit and a crit save failure is pretty unlikely.

I'm also not at all a fan of how ki powers are implemented. I don't care that they're all optional, but acting just as spells and having verbal components doesn't make sense. It works if you want an anime flavored monk, but not if you want say Iron Fist. Ki powers shouldn't be so much like spells that you have to speak/shout to use them. It reminds me of Order of the Stick with Haley shouting "Sneak attack!" every time she does. Monks should be able to be stealthy using their powers, and not seem like a cartoon/Street Fighter character "Ki strike!" each time they want to use the ability.

I think changing their powers to be somatic only instead would make more sense if you have to shoehorn them into the spell format.

For Master of Many Styles, it sounds like you gain the ability to change styles quickly, rather than have 2 styles active at once. For a 16th level ability, I'd have thought you'd be able to have 2 at once. Is there a way to accomplish this (perhaps as an 18th or 20th level ability)?

Also, for magic strikes, metal strikes, and adamantine strikes, do those have the monk's strikes count as _____ for all purposes, or only for bypassing DR like in PF1?


Brew Bird wrote:
One sort of build I've always wanted to try in PF1 is a "one punch" style character, focusing everything into one big attack each round.

You would have loved how Pummeling Style used to work in 1E.

The Saitama action was so real.


Brew Bird wrote:

It's tough for me to make a judgement call here without seeing the class in action. Not knowing how often critical hits/failures tend to happen makes it difficult to judge how useful certain abilities actually are.

One sort of build I've always wanted to try in PF1 is a "one punch" style character, focusing everything into one big attack each round. PF1 isn't really a great system for that, since iterative are so important, so how viable might this be for a monk PF2?

I think I could see this as an extension of the Flurry of Blows, since the two damages pool, for overcoming DR. Maybe Something that lets you add extra attacks (at the usual penalty) for extra actions, adding to that single pool, and flavored as a single strong punch.

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