Monk Class Preview

Monday, June 18, 2018

Some players love to play monks so they can strive toward enlightenment. Others just like to punch stuff!

Monk Features

Monks choose whether their key ability is Strength or Dexterity, which will determine the DC of some of their abilities. Their selection of initial proficiencies looks pretty different from most classes! First off, they have expert proficiency in all their saving throws. Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks. They also get powerful fist, which increases the damage die of their fists and lets them make lethal strikes without penalty when using normally nonlethal unarmed attacks. Further, they're untrained in armor, but get graceful expertise at 1st level, which gives them expert proficiency in unarmored defense (everybody else is only trained).

They get one last class feature at 1st level, of course: Flurry of Blows! This is a single action that can be used once per round to make two strikes using an unarmed attack. If both hit, their damage is combined. Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4 penalty (since a fist is agile). Flurry of Blows is a huge advantage, letting the monk attack up to four times in a round, or letting the monk have plenty of actions to move and attack in a single turn. Speaking of moving, at 3rd level, a monk gains incredible movement, increasing his speed as long as he's not wearing armor. This starts at a 10-foot increase, and it goes up by 5 feet every 3 levels.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Because monks can defend themselves in so many different ways, we wanted to let the monk pick how his saving throws improve. His saves increase at 7th level through the path to perfection class feature, which lets him increase a save's proficiency rank to master. The second path to perfection, at 11th level, lets a monk treat any successful save as a critical success instead, as long as he has master proficiency in that save. The monk gets his third path to perfection at 15th level, which he can use to either increase his proficiency rank in another save to master proficiency or progress his proficiency at a save in which he's already a master to legendary.

The monk's unarmored defense proficiency also goes up as he levels, first to master at 13th level and then to legendary at 17th. You'll notice that monks no longer add their Wisdom modifiers to AC, which is due to a few factors. First, depending on the monk's Dexterity modifier, the gulf between a heavily armored character and a monk without armor is extremely low, so adding even more bonuses would put the monk really far ahead. Second, adding more than a single ability modifier to a check or DC now really distorts the game. Third, we have another role for Wisdom to play in the class, and wanted it to be optional so monks aren't dependent on many different ability scores, giving you more flexibility with how you can build a monk character.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk's unarmed attacks get better as he levels up. Magic strikes, at 3rd level, makes the monk's unarmed attacks magical, and increases his proficiency rank to expert. At 5th level, metal strikes causes them to be treated as cold iron and silver; at 17th level, adamantine strikes makes them act as adamantine. Fierce flurry, at 9th level, increases the damage dice of a Flurry of Blows by one step whenever both strikes hit. At 19th level, the monk has developed perfected form, meaning that when he makes an unarmed attack, he can treat any die roll lower than 10 as if he had rolled a 10! This lets the monk plow through weaker enemies who can't handle his immaculate fighting style, and against bosses, he can even turn a good number of misses into hits.

Monk Feats

A monk's feats let him expand how he can attack, teach him special martial arts techniques, let him develop an entire fighting style, or use magic called ki (which we explain in the Ki section).

Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons. This is how Sajan gets to use that sweet temple sword! If you'd rather stick with punches, kicks, knees, and headbutts, take a look at Brawling Focus at 4th level, which gives you the critical specialization effect for anything in the brawling weapon group. This means if you critically hit with your unarmed attacks, the target might be slowed 1 on its next turn, losing 1 action.

Some of the special attacks you can learn include Stunning Fist, a great option if you're looking to recreate your Pathfinder First Edition monk. A Stunning Fist strike takes 2 actions and you make an unarmed strike; if the strike deals damage, the target has to succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC (based on your Strength or Dex, remember?) or be flat-footed for 1 round, or stupefied 2 if it critically fails. So how do you stun the target? If your strike is a critical hit, the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse, and if it critically fails its save it's stunned for 1 round! At 4th level, you can pick up Deflect Arrow, a reaction that gives you a +4 bonus to AC against a ranged weapon attack, or Flying Kick, which lets you use 2 actions to jump and make a strike at the end of your jump. You can even Long Jump—normally 2 actions—as part of your Flying Kick, potentially moving very far before your strike. Other attacks include Ghost Strike, which lets you use 2 actions to target TAC, or Wall Run, which lets you run up vertical surfaces at your full Speed.

Now what about fighting styles? Let's look at one that starts with the Crane Stance feat at 1st level! A stance takes one action to enter, and can be used only in an encounter. You typically stay in a stance until you enter another stance or get knocked out. In Crane Stance, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and get better at jumping, but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks. What the heck are those? Well, many stances give special unarmed attacks that have statistics much like weapons. Crane wing attacks deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. What if Crane Stance isn't enough? Well, you can pick up Crane Flutter, a reaction that increases your AC against a melee attack and lets you immediately riposte with a crane wing strike at a -4 penalty if the triggering attack misses. Each of the stances in the Playtest Rulebook has one special attack tied to it, but I could see us expanding on them in the future, couldn't you? If you really get into stances, you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns.

Ki

Oh, geez, I'm running long, huh? Let's make this quick. You know how I said there's a role for Wisdom? Well, that's where ki powers come into play. And when I say powers, I mean powers—they're spells just like other powers (such as the wizard's school powers or the cleric's domain powers). You gain access to ki by picking up the first ki power feat, Ki Strike, which gives you a pool of Spell Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, which you can spend to cast ki strike. This power is a Verbal Casting free action you can use when making an unarmed strike to get a +1 bonus to your attack roll. So you let out a shout and hit better!

Now that you have Spell Points, you can expand your repertoire of powers to teleport with Abundant Step, fire a cone of force with a Ki Blast, or kill someone with Quivering Palm. Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2. Let's take a look, and then I'm outta here (probably flying away using the wind jump power)!

Quivering Palm Power 8

Attack, Necromancy
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Duration 1 month

Make a melee unarmed Strike, dealing damage normally. If you succeed and the target is alive, anytime during the duration you can spend a Verbal action to speak a word of death that could instantly slay it, depending on its Fortitude save.

Success The target survives, the spell ends, and the target is bolstered against it.
Failure The target is stunned for 1 round but survives. The spell's duration continues, but the target is bolstered against being killed by quivering palm for 24 hours.
Critical Failure The target dies.

If you cast quivering palm again, any previous quivering palm you had cast ends.

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Not fond of the restriction on taking a stance only once per combat, though -- this means that if you need to switch from Crane Style to something else and then back, you're out of luck.

Also wonder if we will get any equivalent of Master of Many Styles?


Blog mentions MoMS as 16th level ability allowing new style on round by round basis (free action).
...Guessing there will be complaints about that level req, like there was for Fighter's Shield to Reflex Saves.
Although taking it MUCH earlier probably means taking VERY few non-Style Feats and/or no 'advanced' Style Feats like Crane Flutter.


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You can switch stances as often as you want. It takes one action. You can only use a stance in an encounter, not once per encounter.


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So I can actually make a Strength based Monk and not have people stare at me like I've grown a second head? FINALLY! Hopefully Orcs still get a big bonus to their Strength. I'll take the hit to my mental stats if I can viably play what amounts to a green kung fu gorilla.


So as far as I understand if you save against quivering palm you can still be killed after 24 hours?

Is it a balance reason that a word must be spoken to kill the subject?


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Personally i would prefer that Ki-strike alone didnt unlock Ki, but ANY Ki power regardless of level and previous feats would unlock the Ki pool. ( Choose a power, get the pool )

I guess its something about the choices in character progression that some things needs to be learned before you can expand, negatively known as "feat tax"... but honestly some people call any requirement a "tax" in this game regardless... the term have nearly lost its meaning.

However i do wish Ki had more entrance "side-grades" than just the strike.


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Honestly, unless other things specifically
build on Ki Strike, it does sound quite a bit like the type of feat tax we were told wouldn't happen. Though it technically builds on the pool you gain access to, it's still not a great feeling...

Liberty's Edge

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Dracoknight wrote:
However i do wish Ki had more entrance "side-grades" than just the strike.

Logan did mention that in the final version there'd likely be more options to access Ki (ie: different Feats you can take to do that), though that doesn't really help for the playtest.


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It's good to see that Flurry is now one action. That might finally make the mechanic of the mobile monk work.

I like that all magical stuff is now bound to spell points for all classes. If you have a monastic monk you could take a few levels of cleric now and have one large pool to spam monk attacks and domain powers.

And Ki strike and Quvering Palm have verbal casting actions? It's RAW: Monks have to shout their special attacks by name! :)
I want a feat that let's you add extra verbal actions so that the attacks becomes stronger the louder and longer you scream the attacks name!


I could see Ki Strike taking 1 action (it's free now) but granting a bigger bonus, that would seem more attractive IMHO. +WIS bonus, or heck, True Strike is 1st level spell, seems like this could match that even. Or keep it a free action +1 bonus but apply to ALL actions for 1 round. Don't think that will break the game, especially if there is rule like "can only use 1 Ki Power per turn".

Having alternative 'entry feats' is best approach though, let's people choose option suited to their specific playstyle and avoid options not suited (or pick them up later when they better synergize). I do see value in having specific feats also granting the pool (i.e. not requiring previously having a pool), so there is build-up of ki proficiency and not just grabbing some apex ki power at high level out of the blue (that concern can also be addressed by both level req AND "number of ki powers" req).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
However i do wish Ki had more entrance "side-grades" than just the strike.
Logan did mention that in the final version there'd likely be more options to access Ki (ie: different Feats you can take to do that), though that doesn't really help for the playtest.

I'd very much like a starter Ki feat that let you get DR as a reaction (similair to a shield user) possibly based off your Strength as a defensive way to get into the Ki line of things.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Quandary wrote:

I could see Ki Strike taking 1 action (it's free now) but granting a bigger bonus, that would seem more attractive IMHO. +WIS bonus, or heck, True Strike is 1st level spell, seems like this could match that even. Or keep it a free action +1 bonus but apply to ALL actions for 1 round. Don't think that will break the game, especially if there is rule like "can only use 1 Ki Power per turn".

H

The problem with it being its own true action would be it is disabled to combine with other actual Strikes. I quite like it is a minor thing that lets me buff my Flurry for example.


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Stone Dog wrote:
You can switch stances as often as you want. It takes one action. You can only use a stance in an encounter, not once per encounter.

I read it wrong. My bad. (Although it still leaves me a bit bummed that in both Pathfinder 1st Edition and 2nd Edition, it seems that you can't go into a Style Feat/Stance if you know that an encounter is likely to start soon.)


@M_C: I don't know why it would per se a problem if it worked differently in that regard, but I didn't intend that, simply shifting free->standard action and applying bonus to subsequent attack in same way (as True Strike applies to next attack roll whatever that may be, the spell action does not contain 'it's own attack'). So it would impinge on total # of actions you can take in same round (unlike free action version), but those can be whatever you want, e.g. Flurry of Blows. But I'm not wedded to that, like I proposed alternative free action +1 but to all actions in round, since you're spending Ki Spellpoint for this. Anyhow, sounds clear they do intend other entry feats for Ki Pool, we'll see how Ki Strike itself changes from playtest.


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Well at least it says "Encounter" when it comes to stances, meaning its not completely locked to combat. Though i would question the idea of going into a combat stance under a social encounter.


It looks like Ki is optional, which I am pleased about, and I like that it is a spell point pool.

I really like the sound of different Unarmed weapons from Stances. Though I am not that jazzed to see that nonlethal is still a thing, but we'll see how it pans out. I also find it a bit odd that agile and finesse are two different weapon qualities, seem if it's finesse, it would be agile, I am probably missing something.

Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?

Not being proficient in any weapons at all is rather extreme, so they are purely sans weapons by default?

I agree with someone else who mentioned some classes not making an appearance this edition, due to the modular feat like nature (hybrid), archetypes, and we still haven't seen multiclassing.


Btw, did the designers do anything to the Lawful requirement? If anything the Vow system for monk would be a idea to put anathema to.


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At first glance, it seems weird that both Ki and Monk weapons are gated behind feats. I know that feats will be given out like candy, but it still seems like there might be a bit too much rev-up time in purchasing feats.


Logan Bonner wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
On the other hand, it sounds like you made Ki Strike the sole point of entry into the Ki power tree, just like Point Blank Shot in PF1 was the feat tax to be able to do anything else whatsoever as an archer. Not sure how I feel about that. It'd be better if there was at least two points of entry. I know there will be more options later down the line, but even the CRB shouldn't constrict things this much. All the other ki feats should have "Possesses ki" as their printed prerequisite rather than specifically "Ki Strike" to make this more future compatible.
Hoping to add more access paths in the full Core Rulebook.

Maybe something defensive like "Ki Block" for some shield ac or something like that.


Seeing how Stunning Fist interacts with crutical hits makes think that all pressure point attacks could be ki based crit focus feats with the critical hit representing the nerbe or chakra point being affected.

Wondering if adding a somatic action (a ki focusing action) to downgrade the need for a crit into a hit would be unbalanced?


Felinus wrote:

Seeing how Stunning Fist interacts with crutical hits makes think that all pressure point attacks could be ki based crit focus feats with the critical hit representing the nerbe or chakra point being affected.

Wondering if adding a somatic action (a ki focusing action) to downgrade the need for a crit into a hit would be unbalanced?

While I don't think we know details of how components work yet, I'll bet somatic components are defined to be gestures that require a free hand, so this would be problematic while wielding a two-handed weapon.

OTOH is there any reason they couldn't take two verbal actions for the same "spell"?


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So I got in a little discussion about what the attack penalties on a Monk would look like, because we got two different interpretations of what Agile Weapons exactly do.

Would the attacks be at 0/-4/-8 (reducing each penalty from -5 to -4), or would they be at 0/-4/-9 (-1 to the normal penalty for that attack)?


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I see good ideas with some bad execution. This however can simply be because the blog is badly written, due to not revealing enough information. (Which in fact it was considering the bracers and mage armor thing revealed in the thread later.)

DEX or STR: This is more of a thing in the system in general than spesific to monk. But it really seems STR is completely useless stat this time around, due to how damage really comes from adtional dice. Well outside of low levels, but those seem to be even worse waste of time than in PF1. I personally hope that the styles will help the case, especially since I would presume bulk at least partially is effected by STR but monk does not wear armor and possibly doesn't wield a weapon so they have lot less use for it.

Yeah monks should definetly get simple weapon profiency, by all means martial weapons and getting to use unarmed stuff with said weapons can be behind a feat. But it just does not make any sense thematicly and any ranged options being locked behind a feat isn't excatly appealing, and given that eventually everyone needs a ranged option then if you want to play unarmed you had to pick up a class feat as a tax.

Verbal component on Ki powers? Yeah no bad idea, sure if it is some sonic effect or something go ahead. But to my asthetics it is worse than the stereotypical lute playing bard being taken seriously by anyone.

As many have said Ki strike really needs to not be the only one to open up Ki powers.

This mostly a personal peeve, but I really hate how the blogs are written style wise. I do not care for the conversational tone. Just give the information in a solid easy to see format.


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Wultram wrote:
This mostly a personal peeve, but I really hate how the blogs are written style wise. I do not care for the conversational tone. Just give the information in a solid easy to see format.

AFAICT they're really meant less to inform than to excite. The devs may write them, but I always get the feeling the VP of Marketing is watching over their shoulder with a gun to their head: "More exciting! More! What's that thing at the end of that sentence?" "A period." "Make it an exclamation point!"

(Fair's fair, this particular blog isn't bad about exclamation points. Too many of the rest are.)


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With all the clarifications Mark and the others are giving us, I just love it. I think it'll be an awesome class.

I don't say it nearly enough, but I really have a lot of respect for your work, Paizo devs. Cheers.


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Wultram wrote:
Verbal component on Ki powers? Yeah no bad idea, sure if it is some sonic effect or something go ahead. But to my asthetics it is worse than the stereotypical lute playing bard being taken seriously by anyone.

It's tying the monk to the whole Kiai shout deal, which is rather specific.


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Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?

I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.

Note that this is a disadvantage, because DR is gone and the weakness mechanic favors multiple separate attacks. (Right?)

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?

I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.

Note that this is a disadvantage, because DR is gone and the weakness mechanic favors multiple separate attacks. (Right?)

No, resistance is a thing. The previewed skeletons resist slashing and piercing.


I can easily see flavouring the Verbal component of the Ki Powers to be controlled breathing and forced exhalation, which plays into what Ki is supposed to be, for those characters who want to be more Iron Fist than Goku.

As a long-term fan of Monks, and fighting unarmed, I won't personally be affected by the lack of weapon proficiencies by default - I typically play defensive and use blocking tactics to protect my party members when ranged combat comes into play anyway - but I can see why this may present an issue to most other styles of play.

Ideally, I think simple monk weapons at least should be trained at the start.

The rest of this is sounding really good! I'm a big fan of the modular approach, as it really allows me to build the monk I want to play.
Well, so long as I have enough Class Feats, that is! :wink:


KingOfAnything wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?

I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.

Note that this is a disadvantage, because DR is gone and the weakness mechanic favors multiple separate attacks. (Right?)

No, resistance is a thing. The previewed skeletons resist slashing and piercing.

Cool! Then combining damage is an advantage sometimes and a disad sometimes, which is reasonable.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?

I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.

Note that this is a disadvantage, because DR is gone and the weakness mechanic favors multiple separate attacks. (Right?)

No, resistance is a thing. The previewed skeletons resist slashing and piercing.
Cool! Then combining damage is an advantage sometimes and a disad sometimes, which is reasonable.

Yeah. This also how the two weapon fighting feat works IIRC.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.

Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?


Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?

Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.

And if you have Fierce Flurry (9th level) then hitting twice also means the damage dice for both attacks increase. Which I believe is pretty spiffy if you're wielding a +N weapon (or have +N handwraps, whatever).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Wultram wrote:
DEX or STR: This is more of a thing in the system in general than spesific to monk. But it really seems STR is completely useless stat this time around, due to how damage really comes from adtional dice. Well outside of low levels, but those seem to be even worse waste of time than in PF1. I personally hope that the styles will help the case, especially since I would presume bulk at least partially is effected by STR but monk does not wear armor and possibly doesn't wield a weapon so they have lot less use for it.

Based on Crane Wing attacks being pretty similar to non-style attacks, you're looking at d6s for damage. That means if you max strength at the start of the game, +2 handwraps leave strength still providing more than a quarter of your damage. If we go by PF1, that means that strength by itself is relevant until level 9.

So, what about high levels? The dragon style they mentioned looks like it trades out finesse and agile to get d10s instead of d6s, and you need to be strength-focused to remain accurate with that style. That's an extra 60% dice damage.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.

Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?


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Wultram wrote:
Verbal component on Ki powers? Yeah no bad idea, sure if it is some sonic effect or something go ahead.

I have to agree with this.

While I can see a Verbal Component making sense with some powers, Somantic Components make much more sense in my mind as you are making specific moves or striking specific points on your opponent for the desired effect. Does that make sense?


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I am confident Paizo will manage to make sure that the average damage of a monk is on par with other non-caster classes.

However, I am disappointed in the heavy punishment for attacking multiple times per round, which became most apparent with the monk now, even if other classes are affected by it as well, since this is an inherent problem with the new system as a whole. The penality for iterative attacks is huge, especially in a crit system that is tied to your chance to hit. So most of your damage comes from your first attack, just like any other non-caster class. Any attack after the 2nd one has next to no chance to hit any worthwhile foe. The only counteracting feature we know of so far is agile, and its a minor counter measure at best, since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

So you are basically forced to build around your first hit (or 2 hits because of flurry of blows), which is why all those ideas about a hit&run monk come up in this thread. From what we have seen thus far, I am concerned the days of a viable multi hitter are all but gone in PF2, which is a bit too much of streamlining for my taste.


Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?

That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.

So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?


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Kaemy wrote:

So I got in a little discussion about what the attack penalties on a Monk would look like, because we got two different interpretations of what Agile Weapons exactly do.

Would the attacks be at 0/-4/-8 (reducing each penalty from -5 to -4), or would they be at 0/-4/-9 (-1 to the normal penalty for that attack)?

I think agile is 0/-4/-8/-10 (with that rare 4th attack). I vaguely recall Mark saying something to this effect in a thread somewhere. It was about 2-3ish weeks ago, but that's all I remember. Hm, I think it was in reference to two weapon fighting and double slice.

The main factor is how many attacks have you made, and then the weapon type you are using. So, the 1st attack you make has no penalty. The 2nd attack you make normally has -5, but if you use an agile weapon it is -4. It does not matter what weapon you used to make the 1st attack.

So, you could use a standard weapon to do the 1st and 2nd attack at 0/-5 then the 3rd attach with the agile weapon would be -8. The 4th attack is -10, because it maxes out at -10.


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Subutai1 wrote:
since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

We don't know that for sure. Don't get me wrong, -8 is huge, but in PF1 everyone with multiple attacks due to BAB already had a -5 per attack.

A Lv11 Fighter had 0/-5/-10, and a Lv16 had 0/-5/-10/-15, granted it was worded diffent (+16, +11, +6, +1) but it was the same principle.

From my understanding, and early comments that the Fighter would be hitting their target more often than other classes, and other clases would do so more often than in PF1, I get the feeling that instead of the 2nd hit being hard to hit and the third imposible, I think the first one will be almost guaranteed, the second will be normal, and the third one hard to hit rather than almost impossible... Maybe not exactly, but you get the idea, it may not be as bad as we think right now when we read -8 and -10.


Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.
So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?

I suspect you get to add your Str mod to both sets of weapon damage dice whether they're against the same target or not, but it's not 100% clear to me.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Subutai1 wrote:

I am confident Paizo will manage to make sure that the average damage of a monk is on par with other non-caster classes.

However, I am disappointed in the heavy punishment for attacking multiple times per round, which became most apparent with the monk now, even if other classes are affected by it as well, since this is an inherent problem with the new system as a whole. The penality for iterative attacks is huge, especially in a crit system that is tied to your chance to hit. So most of your damage comes from your first attack, just like any other non-caster class. Any attack after the 2nd one has next to no chance to hit any worthwhile foe. The only counteracting feature we know of so far is agile, and its a minor counter measure at best, since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

So you are basically forced to build around your first hit (or 2 hits because of flurry of blows), which is why all those ideas about a hit&run monk come up in this thread. From what we have seen thus far, I am concerned the days of a viable multi hitter are all but gone in PF2, which is a bit too much of streamlining for my taste.

Your chance to hit with your third attack is at least as good as your chance to crit with your first. Monk can essentially have two third attacks (three with Haste), and since two hits is usually worth about as much as a crit, Monk seems quite well-equipped for either hit-and-run or multi-hit.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.
So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?
I suspect you get to add your Str mod to both sets of weapon damage dice whether they're against the same target or not, but it's not 100% clear to me.

Okay, but what is the point of waiting until after the second attack roll to make the damage roll for your first attack?


Kaemy wrote:
Subutai1 wrote:
since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

We don't know that for sure. Don't get me wrong, -8 is huge, but in PF1 everyone with multiple attacks due to BAB already had a -5 per attack.

A Lv11 Fighter had 0/-5/-10, and a Lv16 had 0/-5/-10/-15, granted it was worded diffent (+16, +11, +6, +1) but it was the same principle.

From my understanding, and early comments that the Fighter would be hitting their target more often than other classes, and other clases would do so more often than in PF1, I get the feeling that instead of the 2nd hit being hard to hit and the third imposible, I think the first one will be almost guaranteed, the second will be normal, and the third one hard to hi.. Maybe not exactly, but you get the idea, it may not be as bad as we think right now when we read -8 and -10.

Well if you bring up comparsions to PF1, an unchained monk had up to 7 full BAB attacks (not counting the others here). So far, we have seen not a single mechanic in PF2 that would allow even a single 2nd attack to be at full BAB, which basically kills the idea of a class capable of hitting reliably multiple times per round.

I would much rather have preferred the monk to attack accurately multiple times per round but dealing lower damage per hit instead of one hit per round that really counts and the others are just thrown in for good measure but nothing to rely on. This would set the monk farther appart from other melee classes. But as it stands, the different feeling of fighting in melee will have to come from styles primarily.

On another note, will you be able to combine stunning fist with flurry of blows? If not, then stunning fist is indeed next to useless, since you will always want to start with flurry, as those are your only reliable hits you will get and after that, good luck stunning someone with -8 to hit.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.
So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?
I suspect you get to add your Str mod to both sets of weapon damage dice whether they're against the same target or not, but it's not 100% clear to me.

From the way it's worded I'm 100% sure you add Str Mod to both:

"If both hit, their damage is combined"

So 1st hit does 1d6+3, then you hit with the 2nd also for 1d6+3, you'd do 2d6+3 if both are at one target. Or, more likely, you roll the first hit's damage, then the second and you add them together.

QuidEst wrote:
Subutai1 wrote:

I am confident Paizo will manage to make sure that the average damage of a monk is on par with other non-caster classes.

However, I am disappointed in the heavy punishment for attacking multiple times per round, which became most apparent with the monk now, even if other classes are affected by it as well, since this is an inherent problem with the new system as a whole. The penality for iterative attacks is huge, especially in a crit system that is tied to your chance to hit. So most of your damage comes from your first attack, just like any other non-caster class. Any attack after the 2nd one has next to no chance to hit any worthwhile foe. The only counteracting feature we know of so far is agile, and its a minor counter measure at best, since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

So you are basically forced to build around your first hit (or 2 hits because of flurry of blows), which is why all those ideas about a hit&run monk come up in this thread. From what we have seen thus far, I am concerned the days of a viable multi hitter are all but gone in PF2, which is a bit too much of streamlining for my taste.

Your chance to hit with your third attack is at least as good as your chance to crit with your first. Monk can essentially have two third attacks (three with Haste), and since two hits is usually worth about as much as a crit, Monk seems quite well-equipped for either hit-and-run or multi-hit.

Sure, but your third attack also has a much higher chance to critically fail. People often bring up PF1E penalties but in PF1E, you have a variety of ways to pump your score that PF2E doesn't have and you don't care all that much about your low to-hits because missing's the worst that can happen. Not so in PF2.

I mean, the 19th level upgrade that lets the Monk count any roll lower than 10 as a 10 wouldn't be there if this wasn't an issue, I figure.


Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.
So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?
I suspect you get to add your Str mod to both sets of weapon damage dice whether they're against the same target or not, but it's not 100% clear to me.
Okay, but what is the point of waiting until after the second attack roll to make the damage roll for your first attack?

Well, if you're 9th+ and have Fierce Flurry, you don't know what damage die to use for your first attack until you've seen whether your second attack hits. At lower levels I suppose you may not be required to make the second attack roll (and therefore declare your second target) until you've seen how much damage your first attack did, but it's kind of weird for such a thing to change when you hit 9th level; I just assumed you should do it the same way at every level.

Dark Archive

Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Maybe I am still half asleep, but how does Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then your make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?
I believe you make your first attack, it hits, you make your second attack, it hits, then you roll once for the sum of the damage.
Once for the sum being the damage dice from both attacks (double damage dice)?
Yeah. Well, double if you used the same weapon both times, you don't have to AFAICT.
Thanks, so both attacks have to be against the same target?
That has not been stated explicitly. I would guess you can probably make the attacks against two targets but forfeit the extra benefits of a double hit by doing so. An interesting difference from PF1.
So 1 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 2 targets, or 2 x weapon damage + Str mod vs. 1 target?
I suspect you get to add your Str mod to both sets of weapon damage dice whether they're against the same target or not, but it's not 100% clear to me.
Okay, but what is the point of waiting until after the second attack roll to make the damage roll for your first attack?

I don't think there is a necessity for waiting to make the damage rolls. The key here is 'the damage of the two attacks is combined' why this is key is if things have say, resistance 5 bludgeoning and you do 2 separate attacks, the damage of each is reduced by 5. However, with this flurry the damages are being combined and as such the resistance only applies once! I imagine there are other similar cases but this is the most obvious one that comes to mind. I suppose also would be overpowering a shield, damage is reduced by hardness and if they are separate attacks with separate damage each is reduced individually, again, in this case you are combining the damages and that pool is reduced only once.


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Kaemy wrote:
Subutai1 wrote:
since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

We don't know that for sure. Don't get me wrong, -8 is huge, but in PF1 everyone with multiple attacks due to BAB already had a -5 per attack.

A Lv11 Fighter had 0/-5/-10, and a Lv16 had 0/-5/-10/-15, granted it was worded diffent (+16, +11, +6, +1) but it was the same principle.

From my understanding, and early comments that the Fighter would be hitting their target more often than other classes, and other clases would do so more often than in PF1, I get the feeling that instead of the 2nd hit being hard to hit and the third imposible, I think the first one will be almost guaranteed, the second will be normal, and the third one hard to hit rather than almost impossible... Maybe not exactly, but you get the idea, it may not be as bad as we think right now when we read -8 and -10.

Let's use two 1st level monks with 18 dex to math it out, trying to hit each other. +5 to hit, 16 AC.

The roll you need to hit on full attacks are: 11/15/19/19. So that isn't amazing for those final attacks. Also you will only crit on a 20-- though I suppose, for perspective, that means you're equally likely to crit on an iterative as a 1st attack.

However! You won't usually be fighting mirror opposites, as you are meant to actually win most fights. A zombie seems to have an AC of like 11. So that's 6/10/14/14. I'd certainly consider throwing attacks out if I need a 14 or better to hit, especially if I'm getting weakness damage.

For anothe point of comparison, a 3rd level two weapon fighter has master proficiency and probably expert quality weapons. If they are agile, he's got an attack routine of +10/+6/+2, and with double slice that is +10/+10/+2.

Pit him up against an ogre with AC 16 and he needs to roll 6/6/14 for his hits to land. His first two hits both have 20% odds to crit and his final attack can at least land 30% of the time, which ain't terrible.

Also, this all at low levels. You get better at hitting things as you level up, and unlike PF1 you can throw out large numbers of attacks even at these low levels and can attack more than once and still move. In PF1 you couldn't attack 3 or 4 times until level 6. You couldn't actually attack more than that until level 11... And we know very little of how 11th+ feats may change things in PF2.

The only real loss for multi attacks I can see are natural weapons, which were always kind of borked, and haste and ki flurry no longer granting a full BAB attack. Meanwhile, multi hitters get a variety of other benefits like less strenuous feat prerequisites, built in weapon finesse, lower penalties with agile weapons, and help offsetting MAD through ability boosts.

So yeah, not really seeing this style of fighting losing out.

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