Monk Class Preview

Monday, June 18, 2018

Some players love to play monks so they can strive toward enlightenment. Others just like to punch stuff!

Monk Features

Monks choose whether their key ability is Strength or Dexterity, which will determine the DC of some of their abilities. Their selection of initial proficiencies looks pretty different from most classes! First off, they have expert proficiency in all their saving throws. Monks aren't trained in any weapons, but they are trained in all unarmed attacks. They also get powerful fist, which increases the damage die of their fists and lets them make lethal strikes without penalty when using normally nonlethal unarmed attacks. Further, they're untrained in armor, but get graceful expertise at 1st level, which gives them expert proficiency in unarmored defense (everybody else is only trained).

They get one last class feature at 1st level, of course: Flurry of Blows! This is a single action that can be used once per round to make two strikes using an unarmed attack. If both hit, their damage is combined. Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4 penalty (since a fist is agile). Flurry of Blows is a huge advantage, letting the monk attack up to four times in a round, or letting the monk have plenty of actions to move and attack in a single turn. Speaking of moving, at 3rd level, a monk gains incredible movement, increasing his speed as long as he's not wearing armor. This starts at a 10-foot increase, and it goes up by 5 feet every 3 levels.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Because monks can defend themselves in so many different ways, we wanted to let the monk pick how his saving throws improve. His saves increase at 7th level through the path to perfection class feature, which lets him increase a save's proficiency rank to master. The second path to perfection, at 11th level, lets a monk treat any successful save as a critical success instead, as long as he has master proficiency in that save. The monk gets his third path to perfection at 15th level, which he can use to either increase his proficiency rank in another save to master proficiency or progress his proficiency at a save in which he's already a master to legendary.

The monk's unarmored defense proficiency also goes up as he levels, first to master at 13th level and then to legendary at 17th. You'll notice that monks no longer add their Wisdom modifiers to AC, which is due to a few factors. First, depending on the monk's Dexterity modifier, the gulf between a heavily armored character and a monk without armor is extremely low, so adding even more bonuses would put the monk really far ahead. Second, adding more than a single ability modifier to a check or DC now really distorts the game. Third, we have another role for Wisdom to play in the class, and wanted it to be optional so monks aren't dependent on many different ability scores, giving you more flexibility with how you can build a monk character.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk's unarmed attacks get better as he levels up. Magic strikes, at 3rd level, makes the monk's unarmed attacks magical, and increases his proficiency rank to expert. At 5th level, metal strikes causes them to be treated as cold iron and silver; at 17th level, adamantine strikes makes them act as adamantine. Fierce flurry, at 9th level, increases the damage dice of a Flurry of Blows by one step whenever both strikes hit. At 19th level, the monk has developed perfected form, meaning that when he makes an unarmed attack, he can treat any die roll lower than 10 as if he had rolled a 10! This lets the monk plow through weaker enemies who can't handle his immaculate fighting style, and against bosses, he can even turn a good number of misses into hits.

Monk Feats

A monk's feats let him expand how he can attack, teach him special martial arts techniques, let him develop an entire fighting style, or use magic called ki (which we explain in the Ki section).

Your monk could take Monastic Weaponry at 1st level, letting him use his unarmed attack proficiencies, as well as any monk abilities that normally work with unarmed attacks, with simple and martial monk weapons. This is how Sajan gets to use that sweet temple sword! If you'd rather stick with punches, kicks, knees, and headbutts, take a look at Brawling Focus at 4th level, which gives you the critical specialization effect for anything in the brawling weapon group. This means if you critically hit with your unarmed attacks, the target might be slowed 1 on its next turn, losing 1 action.

Some of the special attacks you can learn include Stunning Fist, a great option if you're looking to recreate your Pathfinder First Edition monk. A Stunning Fist strike takes 2 actions and you make an unarmed strike; if the strike deals damage, the target has to succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC (based on your Strength or Dex, remember?) or be flat-footed for 1 round, or stupefied 2 if it critically fails. So how do you stun the target? If your strike is a critical hit, the target's saving throw result is treated as one category worse, and if it critically fails its save it's stunned for 1 round! At 4th level, you can pick up Deflect Arrow, a reaction that gives you a +4 bonus to AC against a ranged weapon attack, or Flying Kick, which lets you use 2 actions to jump and make a strike at the end of your jump. You can even Long Jump—normally 2 actions—as part of your Flying Kick, potentially moving very far before your strike. Other attacks include Ghost Strike, which lets you use 2 actions to target TAC, or Wall Run, which lets you run up vertical surfaces at your full Speed.

Now what about fighting styles? Let's look at one that starts with the Crane Stance feat at 1st level! A stance takes one action to enter, and can be used only in an encounter. You typically stay in a stance until you enter another stance or get knocked out. In Crane Stance, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and get better at jumping, but the only Strikes you can make are crane wing attacks. What the heck are those? Well, many stances give special unarmed attacks that have statistics much like weapons. Crane wing attacks deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. They're not too different from normal fist strikes, but others differ more; for instance, heavy dragon tail attacks deal 1d10 bludgeoning damage and have the backswing trait instead of agile or finesse. What if Crane Stance isn't enough? Well, you can pick up Crane Flutter, a reaction that increases your AC against a melee attack and lets you immediately riposte with a crane wing strike at a -4 penalty if the triggering attack misses. Each of the stances in the Playtest Rulebook has one special attack tied to it, but I could see us expanding on them in the future, couldn't you? If you really get into stances, you can pick up Master of Many Styles at 16th level, which lets you enter a stance as a free action at the start of each of your turns.

Ki

Oh, geez, I'm running long, huh? Let's make this quick. You know how I said there's a role for Wisdom? Well, that's where ki powers come into play. And when I say powers, I mean powers—they're spells just like other powers (such as the wizard's school powers or the cleric's domain powers). You gain access to ki by picking up the first ki power feat, Ki Strike, which gives you a pool of Spell Points equal to your Wisdom modifier, which you can spend to cast ki strike. This power is a Verbal Casting free action you can use when making an unarmed strike to get a +1 bonus to your attack roll. So you let out a shout and hit better!

Now that you have Spell Points, you can expand your repertoire of powers to teleport with Abundant Step, fire a cone of force with a Ki Blast, or kill someone with Quivering Palm. Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2. Let's take a look, and then I'm outta here (probably flying away using the wind jump power)!

Quivering Palm Power 8

Attack, Necromancy
Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting
Duration 1 month

Make a melee unarmed Strike, dealing damage normally. If you succeed and the target is alive, anytime during the duration you can spend a Verbal action to speak a word of death that could instantly slay it, depending on its Fortitude save.

Success The target survives, the spell ends, and the target is bolstered against it.
Failure The target is stunned for 1 round but survives. The spell's duration continues, but the target is bolstered against being killed by quivering palm for 24 hours.
Critical Failure The target dies.

If you cast quivering palm again, any previous quivering palm you had cast ends.

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
451 to 500 of 861 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hi, I don't think I've seen this confirmed yet so I just want to check if Mark or anyone else is able to answer, but I take it that monk feats aren't going to have mandatory chains too much deeper than fighting stance + special fighting stance action, or ki entry + ki use?

Just mildly concerned about how the number of chains going around might throttle monk feats otherwise. Thanks!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


So it seems to me like we are looking at three main builds:
Dex/wis/con: dodge wuxia monk. Hard to hit, deal okay damage, have some neat little tricksy tricks. All their saves are gonna be hella impressive too.
Str/dex/con: DPS monk that is a little easier to hit but hits hard in return. I worry that this build has little support but maybe the damage will truly be sick when we know all the mechanics at play here.
Dex/con/wis: dodge tank monk. This is pretty much the first kind of monk but with more health and fewer tricks.

I had a huge success with Strength 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10. If I was a dwarf, I could have had Cha 8 and 18 in either Con or Wis, which would have been even better.

Quote:
On a related note: I want to try and get dragon tail style on a barbarian somehow.
Hmm, that would be awesome on a dragon totem barbarian for maximum dragonation! Animal totem barbarians can already do things of similar magnitude based on their animal.

That Dwarf is obviously not level 1, what level is he Mark?

Edit- I agree that he's probably level 10.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

No weapons other than unarmed strike is just an absurd feat tax on the class, now way to overcome bludgeoning resistance and no ranged options?

Casters can now toss around spells in heavy armor with no restrictions, but Monks can't use their basic class features in armor is like a bad joke about martials not being allowed to have nice things.


BTW, if ASF% is to return to the game (which I support), perhaps best to consider how mechanic could be improved.
Why not convert it to instead of outright failure, it just increases the action cost to cast a spell?
That seems alot more likely to be relevant to actual play, as IME nobody played a caster who had chance to completely waste turn & slots.
Could also impact DC, Dispel, Disruption checks, that sort of thing. Same could apply to unarmored-but-encumbered.
IMHO converting to Fort Save makes sense (modified by armor penalty, spell level), and benefit marginalized CON build (+multiclasses ala Eldritch Knight).
EDIT: That even would facilitate Critical Fail/Success outcomes for casting in armor, maybe only Critical Failure means spellcasting fails.
(although IMHO even should not mean the slot is expended, wasting your action is more than enough)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Could a developer confirm if the Stat Progression only gives +1 for Stats over 18? I was under the impression that PF2 was looking at always giving progressions that affected the bonus and that it would be always +2 to 4 Stats, no matter what their values.

Otherwise, 22 is the maximum you can get on any stat, at Lv20, assuming it started at 18 on Lv1... Wich feels a little low for a Fantasy Roleplaying Game. I though (and hoped) there weren't Stat Boosting items anymore, so most of the STR of a Legendary Lv20 Barbarian came from within, not from a Belt he happened to be wearing?

Also, I remember Mark mentioning in the past that the progression "wasn't exactly like Starfinder", but it's looking exactly like Starfinder.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quandary wrote:

BTW, if ASF% is to return to the game (which I support), perhaps best to consider how mechanic could be improved.

Why not convert it to instead of outright failure, it just increases the action cost to cast a spell?

Adding off this, since ASF only ever impacted Somatics anyways, I could see it forcing Somatic actions to take 2 actions to use.

Paizo Employee Designer

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


So it seems to me like we are looking at three main builds:
Dex/wis/con: dodge wuxia monk. Hard to hit, deal okay damage, have some neat little tricksy tricks. All their saves are gonna be hella impressive too.
Str/dex/con: DPS monk that is a little easier to hit but hits hard in return. I worry that this build has little support but maybe the damage will truly be sick when we know all the mechanics at play here.
Dex/con/wis: dodge tank monk. This is pretty much the first kind of monk but with more health and fewer tricks.

I had a huge success with Strength 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10. If I was a dwarf, I could have had Cha 8 and 18 in either Con or Wis, which would have been even better.

Quote:
On a related note: I want to try and get dragon tail style on a barbarian somehow.
Hmm, that would be awesome on a dragon totem barbarian for maximum dragonation! Animal totem barbarians can already do things of similar magnitude based on their animal.
That seems like a very respectable strength-first stat spread. For some reason, I was expecting the “4th best stat” to end up in a somewhat more dire position. Perhaps I should withhold my exact judgement on the state of MAD for the monk until I know all of the rules for attribute progression.

4th best stat probably starts at 12 and ends at 18, but it can vary based on what you're doing. Typically 5th and 6th stats are the ones that start at 10 (or 10, 8) and then stay roughly put for at least levels 1-14, but if you're willing to be flexible with your key ability score, you can eventually manage:

22, 20, 20, 18, 18, 14

for a spread that is as good as possible at 5th and 6th stat without losing much at all from others. A more typical top-heavy alternative might be more like:

24, 20, 20, 18, 14, 8


Quandary wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Perhaps I should withhold my exact judgement on the state of MAD for the monk until I know all of the rules for attribute progression.
Flagged for wrong forum...

They are doing the starfinder type advancement every 5 levels. It is more efficient to boost scores 16 and lower so your primary one hits 18 then starts increasing slowly while the other ones catch up pretty fast. By level 10 your lower picks all probably have +4 boosts so it is WAAAY easier to keep even your third and fourth stat boosted to very good levels. For your dex to lag far enough behind to be a problem would have to be done intentionally by just refusing to boost it which makes little sense for a monk not to spend one of their 4 boosts on it when they get their boosts.


Quivering Palm seems like a terrible 16th level feat; it's basically 1.0's stunning fist, but kills on a crit fail.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Idea:

Change Ki Strike to be a Verbal Action.
Change effect to: Cost 1 Spell Point. You infuse your next strike with Ki. On your next strike, target Touch AC instead of AC.

Reasoning:


  • Verbal single actions are similar to normal spells, instead of being a 'free' action
  • More truthful to "ki strike" fantasy, and also more FUN then a flat bonus (which we agreed in old blogs aren't fun)
  • Feels more impactful for the cost of a spell point


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:
Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?

I mean, if we could tell the difference between the Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, Oracle, Arcanist, Shaman, and Psychic; or the Hunter, Magus, Occultist, Mesmerist, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Bard, 2 kinds of Summoner, Spiritualist, Investigator, Skald, and several different Vigilante archetypes, I think we will be fine.

I mean, the differences between the Wizard, the Sorcerer, and the Arcanist are not dramatic in PF1 (they're all 1/2 BAB, 9-level arcane spellcasters using the same spell list) but it's not like these were homogenous.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:

Hi, I'm a monk. My special abilities are called Ki Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a cleric. My special abilities are called Domain Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a wizard. My special abilities are called school powers and allow me to cast spells.

Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?

Hi, I'm a Fighter. My special abilities are called combos and don't even remotely resemble spells.

Hi, I'm a Rogue. I don't really have any special abilities unique to me, but I can do twice as many of the special abilities that everyone has access to.

Hi, I'm a Barbarian. My special abilities might be magic, but they might not be, and either way they operate on a boom/bust system rather than any point expenditure.

In the future it might be wise to pay attention to all of the class blogs so you don't make a fool of yourself.

To be fair, the type of differentiation you quote is even more reminiscent of 4e, particularly Essentials (See the Slayer, Warden, and Psion for examples of how differentiation is injected into a mostly formulaic universal progression).

I’d also add that most people will find that the apparent parallels between 4th edition and PF2 increases with each preview blog they read, rather than diminish. It is more than clear from reddit, EnWorld threads, Discord chats, and FLGS discussions that there are plenty of people excited about a potential evolution of 4e (everything previewed seems like it could have easily been the progression of a revised 4e, especially regarding fixing some of the most widely derided aspects, but otherwise keeping the core).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Trekkie90909 wrote:
Quivering Palm seems like a terrible 16th level feat; it's basically 1.0's stunning fist, but kills on a crit fail.

Seems like something suited to longer term campaigns. Where you keep fighting some guy who attacks then runs away. Tag them with quivering palm and then every day you get a chance to kill them. And also works visa versa trying to hunt down the evil monk who afflicted your party member. With a duration of 1 month it clearly is something set for a more grand scale type reoccuring opponent theme.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Good news about the lack of alignment restrictions. That just leaves one odd duck.


15 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm really kind of sick of the "it's like 4e" comparisons as though this is a complaint. Games are complex beasts with a lot of moving parts and even if you don't like the game as its constituent parts come into a holistic entity, it's not like there were not good ideas which went into that game.

And "everybody gets to do cool stuff no matter what class they pick" is unarguably a good idea.

I want Pathfinder 2nd Edition to borrow, adapt, steal, poach, purloin, etc. every good idea they can find from anywhere, even if it's a similar game that a bunch of people dislike (but a bunch of people like it too.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Varun Creed wrote:

Idea:

Change Ki Strike to be a Verbal Action.
Change effect to: Cost 1 Spell Point. You infuse your next strike with Ki. On your next strike, target Touch AC instead of AC.

Reasoning:


  • Verbal single actions are similar to normal spells, instead of being a 'free' action
  • More truthful to "ki strike" fantasy, and also more FUN then a flat bonus (which we agreed in old blogs aren't fun)
  • Feels more impactful for the cost of a spell point

I dunno, this seems worse. As stated in the blog you get +1 to hit for 1 spell point with no action cost. What you have proposed is +2 to hit for 1 spell point and an action.

Remember, the difference between touch and regular AC is much smaller than it was in PF1.


How does a quivering palm end when you cast another one?

If you use it again does the last enemy you killed with it suddenly come back to life?

Also, I thought we were trying to get rid of rocket tag? But here we have an ability that a Monk can easily use in the first round of combat to instant kill an enemy.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm really kind of sick of the "it's like 4e" comparisons as though this is a complaint. Games are complex beasts with a lot of moving parts and even if you don't like the game as its constituent parts come into a holistic entity, it's not like there were not good ideas which went into that game.

And "everybody gets to do cool stuff no matter what class they pick" is unarguably a good idea.

I want Pathfinder 2nd Edition to borrow, adapt, steal, poach, purloin, etc. every good idea they can find from anywhere, even if it's a similar game that a bunch of people dislike (but a bunch of people like it too.)

No complaints here. 4e was great.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm really kind of sick of the "it's like 4e" comparisons as though this is a complaint. Games are complex beasts with a lot of moving parts and even if you don't like the game as its constituent parts come into a holistic entity, it's not like there were not good ideas which went into that game.

And "everybody gets to do cool stuff no matter what class they pick" is unarguably a good idea.

I want Pathfinder 2nd Edition to borrow, adapt, steal, poach, purloin, etc. every good idea they can find from anywhere, even if it's a similar game that a bunch of people dislike (but a bunch of people like it too.)

I agree with this overall. That said, I'd also like the game to resemble the game I like and prefer as well. I'm hoping that those two goals can meet somewhere in the middle.

Paizo Employee Designer

9 people marked this as a favorite.
kaid wrote:
For your dex to lag far enough behind to be a problem would have to be done intentionally by just refusing to boost it which makes little sense for a monk not to spend one of their 4 boosts on it when they get their boosts.

That is roughly what Mike did with Cobra, just to see what happened if he did. It might be worse for him if he wasn't just so darn mobile, always leaping and flying around. With two other front-liners, there's usually someone else the enemies would have to move past to get to Cobra, and they have more trouble flanking him when he comes in at the edge of the fight and pulverizes the stragglers, arcing lightning damage into the main masses before leaping into a flank against an enemy who's already started working down the barbarian and might want to finish that rather than switch to the new target (even though it turns out he's easier to hit than the raging barbarian, they won't know that until they divert effort to him, and splitting up your damage to two targets isn't usually as good as focus fire; in fact, even in the case where the enemy switches targets, splitting damage to him instead of focusing down the barbarian is probably a win for Cobra, as it makes it easier for the shield fighter Solveig to protect them and the cleric to heal them).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

How does a quivering palm end when you cast another one?

If you use it again does the last enemy you killed with it suddenly come back to life?

Also, I thought we were trying to get rid of rocket tag? But here we have an ability that a Monk can easily use in the first round of combat to instant kill an enemy.

Only if he critfails the save. This means that it's likely to be really effective in a normal fight but not so much vs. a boss.

Shadow Lodge

7 people marked this as a favorite.

the problem with 4e for me wasn't that classes were mechanically streamlined so they all used the same basic framework...it was that the classes basically had identical powers that only changed the stat they ran off...every class basically had a power that did the same attack and damage that was based on their primary stat...so every class felt exactly the same...i'm not getting that vibe from these previews at all...sure a lot of classes are getting abilities that work the same as casting spells...but they aren't all getting the exact same spells at the exact same level...

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

How does a quivering palm end when you cast another one?

If you use it again does the last enemy you killed with it suddenly come back to life?

No? I don't know why you would think that. The ability to kill someone with a word lasts up to a month or until you hit someone else with it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
knightnday wrote:
I agree with this overall. That said, I'd also like the game to resemble the game I like and prefer as well. I'm hoping that those two goals can meet somewhere in the middle.

I mean, all that has happened here is that PF2 has made "Spell-Like Abilities" into spells since they basically functioned identically anyway. People's PF1 monks cast all kinds of SLAs (Barkskin was an especially popular one) so it's not like "Monks are limited spellcasters" is new.

I mean, the Invested Regent Monk was amazing if you had some generous stats to work with- it let you cast Divine Favor and Divine Power.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
kaid wrote:
For your dex to lag far enough behind to be a problem would have to be done intentionally by just refusing to boost it which makes little sense for a monk not to spend one of their 4 boosts on it when they get their boosts.
That is roughly what Mike did with Cobra, just to see what happened if he did. It might be worse for him if he wasn't just so darn mobile, always leaping and flying around. With two other front-liners, there's usually someone else the enemies would have to move past to get to Cobra, and they have more trouble flanking him when he comes in at the edge of the fight and pulverizes the stragglers, arcing lightning damage into the main masses before leaping into a flank against an enemy who's already started working down the barbarian and might want to finish that rather than switch to the new target (even though it turns out he's easier to hit than the raging barbarian, they won't know that until they divert effort to him, and splitting up your damage to two targets isn't usually as good as focus fire; in fact, even in the case where the enemy switches targets, splitting damage to him instead of focusing down the barbarian is probably a win for Cobra, as it makes it easier for the shield fighter Solveig to protect them and the cleric to heal them).

This doesn't sound too flattering.

Sounds like enemies that focus a STR Monk would mow them down easily, whereas the Barbarian has temporal HP to pad it out.

Even the mobility and damage of the Monk are put into question, given that the Barbarian is probably as good in terms of output and mobility, and has HP padding.

I don't want STR Monk to be Barbarian-but-needs-team-coordination.

Again, high skill games and low level AC for STR remain a concern to me.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
nohar wrote:
the problem with 4e for me wasn't that classes were mechanically streamlined so they all used the same basic framework...it was that the classes basically had identical powers that only changed the stat they ran off...every class basically had a power that did the same attack and damage that was based on their primary stat...so every class felt exactly the same...i'm not getting that vibe from these previews at all...sure a lot of classes are getting abilities that work the same as casting spells...but they aren't all getting the exact same spells at the exact same level...

An example I thought of was that a fighter with Sudden Charge and a monk using Flurry of Blows can both move twice then attack twice in a single round. But outside that specific combination of actions, the two abilities play very differently and will be used in very different ways.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

How does a quivering palm end when you cast another one?

If you use it again does the last enemy you killed with it suddenly come back to life?

No? I don't know why you would think that. The ability to kill someone with a word lasts up to a month or until you hit someone else with it.

It was a joke.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
knightnday wrote:
I agree with this overall. That said, I'd also like the game to resemble the game I like and prefer as well. I'm hoping that those two goals can meet somewhere in the middle.

I mean, all that has happened here is that PF2 has made "Spell-Like Abilities" into spells since they basically functioned identically anyway. People's PF1 monks cast all kinds of SLAs (Barkskin was an especially popular one) so it's not like "Monks are limited spellcasters" is new.

I mean, the Invested Regent Monk was amazing if you had some generous stats to work with- it let you cast Divine Favor and Divine Power.

True. I was speaking more overall than just with the monk, sorry. I've watched a number of game systems go to a new version that changes things in such a way as they only barely resemble the previous version. Sometimes it can be good. More often than not though it ended up as a new game rather than a continuation of the previous.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
That is roughly what Mike did with Cobra, just to see what happened if he did. It might be worse for him if he wasn't just so darn mobile, always leaping and flying around. With two other front-liners, there's usually someone else the enemies would have to move past to get to Cobra, and they have more trouble flanking him when he comes in at the edge of the fight and pulverizes the stragglers, arcing lightning damage into the main masses before leaping into a flank against an enemy who's already started working down the barbarian and might want to finish that rather than switch to the new target (even though it turns out he's easier to hit than the raging barbarian, they won't know that until they divert effort to him, and splitting up your damage to two targets isn't usually as good as focus fire; in fact, even in the case where the enemy switches targets, splitting damage to him instead of focusing down the barbarian is probably a win for Cobra, as it makes it easier for the shield fighter Solveig to protect them and the cleric to heal them).

This doesn't sound too flattering.

Sounds like enemies that focus a STR Monk would mow them down easily, whereas the Barbarian has temporal HP to pad it out.

They have to catch him first.

Quote:
Even the mobility and damage of the Monk are put into question, given that the Barbarian is probably as good in terms of output and mobility, and has HP padding.

What makes you say that? I don't remember any action-economy enhancers a la Flurry in the Barbarian preview.

Quote:
I don't want STR Monk to be Barbarian-but-needs-team-coordination.

What do you want a Str Monk to be? Highly mobile and damaging sounds just about right to me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:
I don't want STR Monk to be Barbarian-but-needs-team-coordination.

^This is why Monk doesn't feel it stands out to me.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

How does a quivering palm end when you cast another one?

If you use it again does the last enemy you killed with it suddenly come back to life?

No? I don't know why you would think that. The ability to kill someone with a word lasts up to a month or until you hit someone else with it.
It was a joke.

Yeah, taking your comment seriously is probably a sign I should take a break from the thread. I'm getting a little frustrated with my fellow posters.


Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:
Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?

There is certainly a similarity in that both are getting accused of being the same. And rom the previews I have seen so far it does not look like it will be any more true for PF2 than it was for D&D 4e (which is to say, not at all).

_
glass.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:

What makes you say that? I don't remember any action-economy enhancers a la Flurry in the Barbarian preview.

No but Barb gets rage and damage enhancers that would off-set the Only 1 extra hit that a Monk gets with his "Flurry" of Blows.

Paizo Employee Designer

6 people marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Varun Creed wrote:

Idea:

Change Ki Strike to be a Verbal Action.
Change effect to: Cost 1 Spell Point. You infuse your next strike with Ki. On your next strike, target Touch AC instead of AC.

Reasoning:


  • Verbal single actions are similar to normal spells, instead of being a 'free' action
  • More truthful to "ki strike" fantasy, and also more FUN then a flat bonus (which we agreed in old blogs aren't fun)
  • Feels more impactful for the cost of a spell point

I dunno, this seems worse. As stated in the blog you get +1 to hit for 1 spell point with no action cost. What you have proposed is +2 to hit for 1 spell point and an action.

Remember, the difference between touch and regular AC is much smaller than it was in PF1.

The TAC gap can be bigger (or smaller), depends on the foe. There is currently a (very very nice) monk feat called Ghost Strike that is essentially Varun Creed's idea but for no spell point cost. My monk's top favorites were often

Enter Stance->Flying Kick
Flying Kick->Flurry
Flurry->Flying Kick
Flurry->Ghost Strike (helps me hit on -8 if it's vs touch)

depending on where the enemies were compared to me.

Paizo Employee Designer

10 people marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
kaid wrote:
For your dex to lag far enough behind to be a problem would have to be done intentionally by just refusing to boost it which makes little sense for a monk not to spend one of their 4 boosts on it when they get their boosts.
That is roughly what Mike did with Cobra, just to see what happened if he did. It might be worse for him if he wasn't just so darn mobile, always leaping and flying around. With two other front-liners, there's usually someone else the enemies would have to move past to get to Cobra, and they have more trouble flanking him when he comes in at the edge of the fight and pulverizes the stragglers, arcing lightning damage into the main masses before leaping into a flank against an enemy who's already started working down the barbarian and might want to finish that rather than switch to the new target (even though it turns out he's easier to hit than the raging barbarian, they won't know that until they divert effort to him, and splitting up your damage to two targets isn't usually as good as focus fire; in fact, even in the case where the enemy switches targets, splitting damage to him instead of focusing down the barbarian is probably a win for Cobra, as it makes it easier for the shield fighter Solveig to protect them and the cleric to heal them).

This doesn't sound too flattering.

Sounds like enemies that focus a STR Monk would mow them down easily, whereas the Barbarian has temporal HP to pad it out.

Even the mobility and damage of the Monk are put into question, given that the Barbarian is probably as good in terms of output and mobility, and has HP padding.

I don't want STR Monk to be Barbarian-but-needs-team-coordination.

Again, high skill games and low level AC for STR remain a concern to me.

This is not an analysis of Strength monk. This is "intentionally tanking Dexterity to 5th-stat priority levels to test an extreme" monk. I honestly told Mike I was worried about his AC due to his Dex before he started, but I'm extremely happy he persisted because even though when I have worries "by the numbers" about a character I am usually proven right in playtest, I couldn't believe how amazing his character has been doing when I saw it in play. And Mike's a really skilled player, so one week he didn't show up and we were low on players, I played his character on auto-pilot as the GM (wasn't going to stick him with a death if it occurred) just to see how he fared with a straightforward approach and he was still doing really well on that front.

My Strength monk was the party's best defended, including the paladin (two-handed Ragathiel paladin) against pretty much everything, while also having our best direct offense (this last was due to factors of opposition and itemization; the paladin could have been equal or better at offense in other situations)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
-Poison- wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

What makes you say that? I don't remember any action-economy enhancers a la Flurry in the Barbarian preview.

No but Barb gets rage and damage enhancers that would off-set the Only 1 extra hit that a Monk gets with his "Flurry" of Blows.

That covers output, maybe. Not so much mobility.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:

Hi, I'm a monk. My special abilities are called Ki Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a cleric. My special abilities are called Domain Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a wizard. My special abilities are called school powers and allow me to cast spells.

Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?

nope ,

but to be fair i did not find most of 4th to be homogenized, boring OR the same


kaid wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Perhaps I should withhold my exact judgement on the state of MAD for the monk until I know all of the rules for attribute progression.
Flagged for wrong forum...
They are doing the starfinder type advancement every 5 levels. It is more efficient to boost scores 16 and lower so your primary one hits 18 then starts increasing slowly while the other ones catch up pretty fast. By level 10 your lower picks all probably have +4 boosts so it is WAAAY easier to keep even your third and fourth stat boosted to very good levels. For your dex to lag far enough behind to be a problem would have to be done intentionally by just refusing to boost it which makes little sense for a monk not to spend one of their 4 boosts on it when they get their boosts.

We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?

It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.

TheFinish wrote:
Yeah it's plenty possible, assuming Monk gives +Dex or +Wis or +Con. Otherwise, you can't pull it off. But you can pull 3 16s, that's for sure. It's just that Class and Ancestry determine which ones.

Monk is explicitly noted as giving either Str or Dex at 1st in the above Blog Post.

And yeah, a non-human can have three 16s (though a Human can't get above two).

We know what humans do?

Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Azih wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Azih wrote:
Iron Fist, as per the Marvel Netflix TV Series, is definitely not High Wis or High Int though. His mysticism needs to be Cha based!
I understand that the Netflix version dumped charisma too, though.

Nah, the character was a likable dude in-universe, and smoothed over diplomatic problems out of combat (mostly by buying businesses outright sure but the people getting bought out didn't seem unhappy about it).

Definitely didn't dump Cha nearly as badly as Wis, or Int.

I disagree. He very much dumped cha but used the bonus to diplomacy by spending gp to compensate.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

If this is true, then how did Mark arrive at a Strength of 24 in is example stat spread upthread? Also, Mark's examples have far more stat points then is possible given Starfinder's progression.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Sarcastic Sage wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

If this is true, then how did Mark arrive at a Strength of 24 in is example stat spread upthread? Also, Mark's examples have far more stat points then is possible given Starfinder's progression.

Stat boosting magic items probably.

Liberty's Edge

The Sarcastic Sage wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

If this is true, then how did Mark arrive at a Strength of 24 in is example stat spread upthread? Also, Mark's examples have far more stat points then is possible given Starfinder's progression.

Someone will probably answer this before I post but;

Starting with an 18, +1 at 5, 10, 15, and 20, and +2 more from a magic item would lead to 24, yeah? Now if it was achieved without a magic item, I don't know, stats should cap at 22 without them, unless I'm missing my math, which is possible.


The Sarcastic Sage wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

If this is true, then how did Mark arrive at a Strength of 24 in is example stat spread upthread? Also, Mark's examples have far more stat points then is possible given Starfinder's progression.

Because we get stat boost items as well. +2 to any stat is the max we get in 2e. So if you max out your respective stat, you'll end up with 24.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Insight wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm really kind of sick of the "it's like 4e" comparisons as though this is a complaint. Games are complex beasts with a lot of moving parts and even if you don't like the game as its constituent parts come into a holistic entity, it's not like there were not good ideas which went into that game.

And "everybody gets to do cool stuff no matter what class they pick" is unarguably a good idea.

I want Pathfinder 2nd Edition to borrow, adapt, steal, poach, purloin, etc. every good idea they can find from anywhere, even if it's a similar game that a bunch of people dislike (but a bunch of people like it too.)

No complaints here. 4e was great.

This post (along with others like it) is a startling insight into the current PF2e fanbase. If most people feel like this I worry that PF2e isn't going to resemble a game my group enjoys.

The problem with stealing "the best ideas" from 4th ed, is that there is little to no universal agreement as to what the best ideas are. 5th edition decided that +1/2 level to everything for everyone was ultimately bad design and reduced the number porn significantly to address the criticisms that it had introduced. Now we have +level to everything for everything for everyone.

That said, I don't see any significant similarity in the current preview of the monk with 4e. Yes the monk has spells. He also had them in PF1e. Empty body, abundant step, no sacrifice and greater ki sacrifice were all effectively spells cast with spell points. Qi gong jing monk was blatantly casting spells and in my group it was the most popular archetype. Simplifying that is not homogenising the classes. We will have to wait and see how similar they all are when the full rules come out.

Paizo Employee Designer

14 people marked this as a favorite.
The Sarcastic Sage wrote:


Also, Mark's examples have far more stat points then is possible given Starfinder's progression.

The starting assignment for ability scores is far more generous than Starfinder's is. You can find spot-on analysis that predicted the way this works from posts that go back to startlingly early times, thanks to the keen analysis of some of our fellow forumgoers.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

Thanks for the link, I had apparently missed that one. Ugh, well, that's... horrible. I had thought they might have figured out this was a bad idea with Starfinder... So much for that. Going to make monk a lot harder to build with multiple stats as well... I'm really not a fan of essentially forcing players to have even stats/not tank a stat, but so it goes...


Iron_Matt17 wrote:
The Sarcastic Sage wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

If this is true, then how did Mark arrive at a Strength of 24 in is example stat spread upthread? Also, Mark's examples have far more stat points then is possible given Starfinder's progression.
Because we get stat boost items as well. +2 to any stat is the max we get in 2e. So if you max out your respective stat, you'll end up with 24.

Ah, I was under the impression that those stats were sans items, that would indeed account for the discrepancies.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
tivadar27 wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
We don't know this for sure. In fact, all the evidence we have suggests that the increments are +2 even for higher stat boosts (note that Mark gave a bunch of stat arrays and none of them included an odd number...). Personally, I like this way better. Essentially forcing characters to generalize (or get half the usual bonus) is bad in my book.

Confirmed in this thread, actually

Logan mentioned a stat progression with 18 Str/16 Dex at 1st level, 19/18 at 5th level, 20/19 at 10th level, etc.

Thanks for the link, I had apparently missed that one. Ugh, well, that's... horrible. I had thought they might have figured out this was a bad idea with Starfinder... So much for that. Going to make monk a lot harder to build with multiple stats as well... I'm really not a fan of essentially forcing players to have even stats/not tank a stat, but so it goes...

It also doesn't really fit with the "learn it once, apply it always" mantra if there's a step change.

Also not a fan.

451 to 500 of 861 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Paizo Blog: Monk Class Preview All Messageboards