Weapon Training—And So Many Weapons!

I'm 99% sure that it's on a Season 6 chronicle sheet, actually. As is my gunslinger's new favorite thing in the whole world...

I don't know very many of the Chronicle Sheets - pretty much only the ones I've run, plus a couple of famous ones (Quest for Perfection, etc.)

But I do know that it's a relatively infamous part of the adventure in that spoiler. ^_^

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Once I add in any Technology Guide weapons, I'm willing to revisit those two dwarven weapons.

Tindalen wrote:

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Once I add in any Technology Guide weapons, I'm willing to revisit those two dwarven weapons.

As long as the dwarven longhammer stays in the hammer group.

John Compton wrote:

Tindalen wrote:

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Once I add in any Technology Guide weapons, I'm willing to revisit those two dwarven weapons.

As long as the dwarven longhammer stays in the hammer group.

Yes, I was suggesting that they belong in both groups, much the same as how the dwarven maulaxe is in both the axe and hammer groups.

Also, thank you for your quick response and offer to reconsider, Mr. Compton.

Don't forget the monowhip.

mmm...monofilament...

Okay, I think I have a good sense of where most of the Technology Guide entries would fit, but there's one that I'm struggling to catalogue. Where would you fit the laser torch?

Okay, I think I have a good sense of where most of the Technology Guide entries would fit, but there's one that I'm struggling to catalogue. Where would you fit the laser torch?

I'm thinking Close, based on the 6" range. If I had to add another, I'd say Blades, Light.

Can we re-look at the knuckle axe as well? Why is this in the axe group and not the close group? It's basically a bladed brass knuckle. They have no haft, so they're not used like a normal axe, so the training for them should be completely different.

John, as somebody mentioned upthread the minotaur double crossbow from Classic Monsters Revisited was not included in the list of crossbows.

John, as somebody mentioned upthread the minotaur double crossbow from Classic Monsters Revisited was not included in the list of crossbows.

It astonishes me that anything from that book is PFS-legal.

Actually... is flesh to ooze legal? I always wanted to get that spell some exercise...

John Compton wrote:

Okay, I think I have a good sense of where most of the Technology Guide entries would fit, but there's one that I'm struggling to catalogue. Where would you fit the laser torch?

I'm thinking Close, based on the 6" range. If I had to add another, I'd say Blades, Light.

I'd put it in firearms. It's a pistol-grip welder with a 6" range. Granted, it functions as a melee weapon, but it really doesn't fit in any melee weapon group.

Kalindlara wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Okay, I think I have a good sense of where most of the Technology Guide entries would fit, but there's one that I'm struggling to catalogue. Where would you fit the laser torch?

I'm thinking Close, based on the 6" range. If I had to add another, I'd say Blades, Light.

I'd put it in firearms. It's a pistol-grip welder with a 6" range. Granted, it functions as a melee weapon, but it really doesn't fit in any melee weapon group.

I considered Firearms as the second group, since I feel pretty sure about Close. The issue I had was putting a melee-only weapon into Firearms.

Are there any melee-only weapons in Firearms, Bows, or Crossbows?

Imbicatus wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Okay, I think I have a good sense of where most of the Technology Guide entries would fit, but there's one that I'm struggling to catalogue. Where would you fit the laser torch?

I'm thinking Close, based on the 6" range. If I had to add another, I'd say Blades, Light.

I'd put it in firearms. It's a pistol-grip welder with a 6" range. Granted, it functions as a melee weapon, but it really doesn't fit in any melee weapon group.

I considered Firearms as the second group, since I feel pretty sure about Close. The issue I had was putting a melee-only weapon into Firearms.

Are there any melee-only weapons in Firearms, Bows, or Crossbows?

Not melee only, but firearms has the dagger pistol, sword cane pistol, and musket axe, and you can use firearm or crossbow training in melee with a Sharpshooter's Blade.

Michael Eshleman wrote:

John, as somebody mentioned upthread the minotaur double crossbow from Classic Monsters Revisited was not included in the list of crossbows.

It astonishes me that anything from that book is PFS-legal.

Actually... is flesh to ooze legal? I always wanted to get that spell some exercise...

It is, but that's from Dungeon Denizens Revisited, not Classic Monsters Revisited.

Kalindlara wrote:

Michael Eshleman wrote:

John, as somebody mentioned upthread the minotaur double crossbow from Classic Monsters Revisited was not included in the list of crossbows.

It astonishes me that anything from that book is PFS-legal.

Actually... is flesh to ooze legal? I always wanted to get that spell some exercise...

It is, but that's from Dungeon Denizens Revisited, not Classic Monsters Revisited.

You can really tell which books I've barely read. ^_^

Thank you!

Fromper wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Tindalen wrote:

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Once I add in any Technology Guide weapons, I'm willing to revisit those two dwarven weapons.

As long as the dwarven longhammer stays in the hammer group.

Yes, I was suggesting that they belong in both groups, much the same as how the dwarven maulaxe is in both the axe and hammer groups.

Also, thank you for your quick response and offer to reconsider, Mr. Compton.

There's an issue with another dwarven weapon as well. . . the dwarven double waraxe. It's not actually a double weapon at all, so I'd argue that perhaps it doesn't deserve to be in that group. (The axe group that it's in is fine, of course.)

We need to pay attention to dwarves, because dwarves deserve special treatment. Because they rock.

We need to pay attention to dwarves, because dwarves deserve special treatment. Because they rock.

Yeah, they made this wonderful *redacted* that allows the PFS to *redacted* and *redacted* with the wibbley-*redacted* and yeah.

There's an issue with another dwarven weapon as well. . . the dwarven double waraxe. It's not actually a double weapon at all, so I'd argue that perhaps it doesn't deserve to be in that group. (The axe group that it's in is fine, of course.)

We need to pay attention to dwarves, because dwarves deserve special treatment. Because they rock.

+1. As Rubia states, despite the name the dwarven "double" waraxe does note have the double weapon special feature and cannot be wielded as such.

So how is the Temple Sword not in the monk weapon group? I have overlooked it until now because it clearly should be. That is really odd.

While we're at it, what's up with the "Thrown Weapons" category? Sling and Blowgun are in it, which would allow you to use them with the Splintering Weapon feat and add your strength modifier to damage. But both of these are listed as "Projectile weapons" (which isn't a category listed above) which doesn't let you use your strength bonus, exempting the sling by special mention. Do mentions of "thrown weapons" refer to the weapon category, or to something else?

And where does grapple fit into all of this? Since I can Weapon Focus in grapple, doesn't it into some category?

I'll reiterate that for the purpose of this blog, I did not change any weapon's existing category from a hardcover book. I simply added any unattributed weapons to the lists.

While we're at it, what's up with the "Thrown Weapons" category? Sling and Blowgun are in it, which would allow you to use them with the Splintering Weapon feat and add your strength modifier to damage. But both of these are listed as "Projectile weapons" (which isn't a category listed above) which doesn't let you use your strength bonus, exempting the sling by special mention. Do mentions of "thrown weapons" refer to the weapon category, or to something else?

And where does grapple fit into all of this? Since I can Weapon Focus in grapple, doesn't it into some category?

You're confusing fighter weapon groups with types of weapons. They're not the same things.

All weapons belong to one of two general types: melee or ranged. Melee weapons are further divided into light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons. Ranged weapons are divided into projectile weapons and thrown weapons.

Thrown weapons are tricky. If a thrown weapon can also be used as a melee weapon, its melee type (light, one-handed, or two-handed) takes precedence and it is listed as a melee weapon with a ranged increment. (See dagger for an example.) If a thrown weapon cannot be used as a melee weapon, it is listed as a ranged weapon. (See shuriken as an example.)

None of those categories (light, one-handed, two-handed, projectile, or thrown) are fighter weapon groups, which this blog is listing. Fighter weapon groups are groups of thematically similar weapons that are grouped together solely for the purposes of feats and class features, namely a fighter's weapon training ability but also the new weapon style feats from the Weapon Master's Handbook.

So, to reiterate:

• Thrown weapons are a type of ranged weapon. The name also lends itself to the thrown fighter weapon group. Unless an ability says, "Weapons belonging to the thrown fighter weapon group," then any ability that references thrown weapons is referring to any ranged weapon that you throw.
  
• Projectile weapons are a type of ranged weapon. They are too varied to have a single fighter weapon group, as projectile weapons include crossbows (a fighter weapon group), bows (a fighter weapon group), firearms (a fighter weapon group), and certain thrown weapons.
  

One could make the argument about whether or not the Pathfinder Design Team should issue an FAQ on the subject of whether the terms "thrown weapons" and "weapons in the thrown fighter weapon group" should be synonymous, but currently they aren't. The distinction between types of weapons and fighter weapon groups is important in certain circumstances, however. For instance, the urumi does not have the monk weapon feature (and is therefore not a "monk weapon"), but Ultimate Equipment lists it as being in the monk fighter weapon group.

I'll reiterate that for the purpose of this blog, I did not change any weapon's existing category from a hardcover book. I simply added any unattributed weapons to the lists.

Checking...hmm...it seems like it was listed under monk group in Humans of Golarion, if my source is correct.

It's not a hardcover but does it still count?

I'll reiterate that for the purpose of this blog, I did not change any weapon's existing category from a hardcover book. I simply added any unattributed weapons to the lists.

I understand, but Humans of Golarion added Temple Sword to the monk list, so there is a precedent there for it belonging to the monk weapon group. I know those weapon groups are not PFS legal, but the Temple Sword is clearly a monk weapon.

I understand, but Humans of Golarion added Temple Sword to the monk list, so there is a precedent there for it belonging to the monk weapon group. I know those weapon groups are not PFS legal, but the Temple Sword is clearly a monk weapon.

There is a difference between the temple sword being a monk weapon, there by being usable in Flurry of Blows, and being part of the weapon group that is used by fighters or others taking the correct feats. At least that is how it appears to me.

My comment is not directed toward the comment on the source book Humans of Golarion.

Imbicatus wrote:

I understand, but Humans of Golarion added Temple Sword to the monk list, so there is a precedent there for it belonging to the monk weapon group. I know those weapon groups are not PFS legal, but the Temple Sword is clearly a monk weapon.

There is a difference between the temple sword being a monk weapon, there by being usable in Flurry of Blows, and being part of the weapon group that is used by fighters or others taking the correct feats. At least that is how it appears to me.

My comment is not directed toward the comment on the source book Humans of Golarion.

Yes. I understand that. Weapon Group is not the same as Weapon Ability. I have no problem with that. But in the case of the Temple Sword, it should be part of the weapon group, and was placed there in Humans of Golarion.

I've often seen the Ratfolk Tailblade referred to as simply the Tailblade, but I notice that the Light Blades group lists both "Ratfolk Tailblade" and "Tailblade." Is that an accidental duplication or is there another Tailblade that I don't know about?

There's some kobold tail weapons, maybe one of those?

There's some kobold tail weapons, maybe one of those?

I considered that but...

(A) "Kobold tail attachment" and "tailblade" are pretty different phrasings
(B) Kobold tail attachments have their own weapon group
(C) not all of the Kobold tail attachments are "blades"

So I don't think that is the likely explanation.

Shouldn't throwing shields still be also in the Close weapon group?

They don't stop being shields after all.

-j

Catfolk Claw Blades are also missing.

I was hoping beyond hope that you would allow the Lucerne Hammer into the Hammer category.

My Hellknight Sunderer would be slightly more efficient with a Lucerne Hammer than he is with the Bardiche but I suppose without this ruling there would be very little reason to use a Bardiche so there you have it.

So, any news about the chainsaw?

The Dwarven Maulaxe seems to be the only throwing weapon in the game that isn't in the thrown weapon group. Any reason why?

Will this get updated to include the weapons from Ultimate Intrigue? Or maybe clarified in the Additional Resources/Campaign Clarifications page? I'm specifically interested in wrist launchers being classified as part of the crossbows weapon training group for PFS use. I'm assuming it'll be on that list because it's pretty much like the tube arrow shooter.

Will this get updated to include the weapons from Ultimate Intrigue? Or maybe clarified in the Additional Resources/Campaign Clarifications page? I'm specifically interested in wrist launchers being classified as part of the crossbows weapon training group for PFS use. I'm assuming it'll be on that list because it's pretty much like the tube arrow shooter.

Also interested in the wrist launchers.

Still say it should be pfs legal to have "weapon group, whatever weapon this thing is in"

So, is this just in regards to a fighter's weapon training ability or does it also affect other features? I ask because I have a rogue fighter that uses a rapier. Rapier is listed as a 1-hand, but in the light weapons section on this post. Does that mean I can use Piranha Strike with it now? Hero labs seems to think it does but I don't want to get surprised at the table.

Rapier is listed as a 1-hand, but in the light weapons section on this post. Does that mean I can use Piranha Strike with it now? Hero labs seems to think it does but I don't want to get surprised at the table.

It's not part of a "light weapons" group, it's part of the "Light Blades" group. That's just a description of the weapon group, rather than of the effort required to use it. A rapier sized for you is still a one-handed weapon. Same with the sword cane, also in that group.

Tindalen wrote:

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Once I add in any Technology Guide weapons, I'm willing to revisit those two dwarven weapons.

Have there been any decisions made on Technology Guide weapons? Thanks!

Approximately when would the Adventurer's Guide weapons get added?

I think this is a great place to get a listing of all legal weapons, and was looking for a couple before I went over to the Additional Resources to see that the Adventurer's Guide is listed, and no weapons I wanted are banned.

John Compton wrote:

Tindalen wrote:

Can we get a reconsideration on the dwarven long axe and dwarven long hammer? These are clearly pole arms as well as axe/hammer, and it devastates my dwarven Phalanx Soldier who now can not use the weapons of his people with his fighter training. (PFS)

Once I add in any Technology Guide weapons, I'm willing to revisit those two dwarven weapons.

Have there been any decisions made on Technology Guide weapons? Thanks!

Niketas!

...now enjoys his several chainsaws and will soon have more Weapon Training to spread around. In the name of Kurgess - that is to say, fair play - has the passage of years helped to resolve this question?

Old as time, but just noticed chakram was added to heavy blades, so it's on both the heavy and light blades list. seems weird.

Edit: Also repeating hand crossbow listed twice.

Sorry to join in on raising this thread, but one of my players asked me about their chainsaw-wielding warpriest/fighter (also a decent name for a band, methinks), in regards to this.

I know PF2E is the main focus right now, but is there any advice we can get on what to tell season 6 aficionados?

Thanks in advance!

For the tech weapons, let's go with what James Jacobs said in this post. Players who were using fighter weapon training and similar weapon-group specific options using other categories can switch them to match the weapon's new classification, or sell the weapon back for the full value if it no longer works for their character.

Awesome - thank you!!

Any chance of an update to this list to bring it up to date with all the weapons released since then? This is of importance as my pfs elven fighter is rapidly approaching 5th level and will need to choose his weapon training - currently dual-wielding elven thornblades - which don't officially have a home n the weapon group list.

Holy necro Bat-man!!

I think there there is very little chance that there will any update for anything 1e.

Holy necro Bat-man!!

"I'm Necro Bat Man!"