Ultimate Intrigue—Vigilante Playtest!

I had a barbarian 2/fighter 2 once die from a pit trap. And just after he finished his build, too!!! (Spring Attacking Power Attacker, 3.5) (Well, her build--cursed with Girdle of Opposite Sex (and I thought the Opposite of Sex was a Christina Richie movie...))
And I had just discovered the joys of mounted combat!!!

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

tell that to elongated man and hour man.

Milo v3 wrote:

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

tell that to elongated man and hour man.

Those are exceptions. Which are more iconic as inventor vigilantes; batman and ironman, or elongated man and hour man?

christos gurd wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

tell that to elongated man and hour man.

Those are exceptions. Which are more iconic as inventor vigilantes; batman and ironman, or elongated man and hour man?

I've seen several stories where Batman had to use chemistry to save the day.

All the choices for the vigilante specialization look cool. I wanna play the warlock.

All the choices for the vigilante specialization look cool. I wanna play the warlock.

Spoony reference? ^_^

Milo v3 wrote:

christos gurd wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

tell that to elongated man and hour man.

Those are exceptions. Which are more iconic as inventor vigilantes; batman and ironman, or elongated man and hour man?

I've seen several stories where Batman had to use chemistry to save the day.

There are several stories where batman had to use magic to save the day. But, the main things he invents are his gadgets, not chemicals that he takes. The chemicals he does utilise generally are things he sprays at other people anyway or at objects to do things like make them melt. His main invention theme is not chemical in nature, he can do it, but it is the main thing.

Ventnor wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

christos gurd wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

tell that to elongated man and hour man.

Those are exceptions. Which are more iconic as inventor vigilantes; batman and ironman, or elongated man and hour man?

I've seen several stories where Batman had to use chemistry to save the day.

There are several stories where batman had to use magic to save the day. But, the main things he invents are his gadgets, not chemicals that he takes. The chemicals he does utilise generally are things he sprays at other people anyway or at objects to do things like make them melt. His main invention theme is not chemical in nature, he can do it, but it is the main thing.

my mistake, i didn't know i was only allowed to play batman.

Axial wrote:

All the choices for the vigilante specialization look cool. I wanna play the warlock.

Spoony reference? ^_^

What's a paladin?

Milo v3 wrote:

Ventnor wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

christos gurd wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

tell that to elongated man and hour man.

Those are exceptions. Which are more iconic as inventor vigilantes; batman and ironman, or elongated man and hour man?

I've seen several stories where Batman had to use chemistry to save the day.

There are several stories where batman had to use magic to save the day. But, the main things he invents are his gadgets, not chemicals that he takes. The chemicals he does utilise generally are things he sprays at other people anyway or at objects to do things like make them melt. His main invention theme is not chemical in nature, he can do it, but it is the main thing.

my mistake, i didn't know i was only allowed to play batman.

He's not saying that. He's saying that an Inventor Vigilante should be someone who builds gadgets and devices or modifies them. Not someone who uses Mutagens and Alchemy as his primary "thing" that he does. Most heroes that invent things use gadgets, rarely do they ever rely on constant intake of drugs to fuel them.

I mean with the talent mechanic why not have both? Make it a "scientist build"

I mean with the talent mechanic why not have both? Make it a "scientist build"

Because you can't really have a single specialization that grants two sets of spellcasting progression. It'd be rather strange.

I feel like this is an interesting system, but I don't see how it will work well in a mixed party with non vigiantees.

Role playing will include a lot of the following: "Hey [vigilante] is here, but where did [social] disappear to?"

I guess blabbing about another player's secret identity should now also be considered PVP.

pixierose wrote:

I mean with the talent mechanic why not have both? Make it a "scientist build"

Because you can't really have a single specialization that grants two sets of spellcasting progression. It'd be rather strange.

It may not be spellcasting that is being referred to here. Bombs (smoke/flash/teargas/sleep gas); mutagens and other bio-upgrades as well as offensive bio-weapons; gadgets (lights, vision goggs, capture equipment....) tricks'n'traps; vehicles; armors'n'weapons; - inventing as being only one of these is a pointlessly restrictive definition.

This is really an option to finally visit the Artificer concept and make it work. Making a Warlock by this back-door is already weird enough, why not also make an Artificer?

I'd also would like to see more specializations. I can understand wanting to keep the number small for the playtest but I hope we get a few more in the book.

Possible Specializations:
Artificer/Inventor/Engineer)
Beast (Rager)
Mastermind
Psychic

By Stat:
Str: Avenger
Dex: Stalker
Con: Beast (Rager)
Int: Warlock, Artificer
Wis: Psychic
Cha: Zealot, Mastermind

I think these cover the basic tropes.

SM

I'm nearly finished making the 15th warlock with living shadow, and I've noticed the vigilante can be the best magic thief class I've found so far. I can only assume the living shadow will make it even better in that role.

I just love the theme of this new class. It makes me think of new feats, items, archetypes, even prestige classes.

In other words, it fires up the imagination like nothing I read before in this game.

That alone makes it an excellent design idea IMO.

It was needed.

A few comments on "Avenger" builds.

1) I think some more nature (ranger) based Vigilante talents might be in order. Think of the concept that instead of a ranger, take a Robinhood scenario where instead of being an ousted noble, Robin keeps his nobility and then is a thief by night. I think Robin and his merry men as vigilantes as the build. I think it could work well. You could technically do it with the stuff already published, but it could get even better. (A nature based archtype could also work well.)

2) Been building some of the high level fighter concepts people have played around here, except redoing them as avengers. The downside, is really the lack of archtypes, but even when losing archtypes, most of the time archyped fighters were better when built as an avenger. For fighters not built as a fighter, they were better as an avenger 100% of the time we tried it. In all cases, we simply ignored the fact that the dual role existed, and just said the character would be in vigilante mode 100% of the time. Issue with this is that the optimal solution seems to not be in the spirit of the class.

One thing I hope they include is a feat that allows the vigilante to pick from specializations other than his own. The reason for this is that I feel that having the vigilante talents limited to by specializations is actually a bad idea, I feel that talents should be open to all specializations, thus allowing for some interesting builds.

One thing I hope they include is a feat that allows the vigilante to pick from specializations other than his own. The reason for this is that I feel that having the vigilante talents limited to by specializations is actually a bad idea, I feel that talents should be open to all specializations, thus allowing for some interesting builds.

Or not even a feat, but a class feature that lets you select a talent from a different specialization.

A Crime Lord archetype might be fun. Lots of minions and Teamwork feats and buffing.

I'm looking at a paladin / vigilante character based in Egorian. What are the limitations on alignment? (Put another way, can the Social persona have a non-Good alignment, without the Paladin needing continual atonement spells.)

I'm looking at a paladin / vigilante character based in Egorian. What are the limitations on alignment? (Put another way, can the Social persona have a non-Good alignment, without the Paladin needing continual atonement spells.)

"For the purposes of meeting a qualification for a feat, class, or other ability, he is only eligible if both of his alignments meet the requirements."

Just because you can fool spellcasters doesn't mean that you disappear from your deity's radar whenever you change personas.

Also this:

"A vigilante’s two alignments must be within one step of each other."

So LG could be LN,NG or LG.

I think that a Paladin/Vigilante should remain LG in both his identities.

So besides my hulk build i have a. Idea for a "bomb and blast" warlock build, maybe take a 1 dip into alchist so that I DO get the bonus from int... but then taking the bomb talent in warlock might not even be yseful. Unless you get some bonus if you have that class feature from another class?

I just re-read the pdf., and the zealot option really reminds me of just another way to make an inquisitor--and a weaker version at that. Is there something I'm missing?

I just re-read the pdf., and the zealot option really reminds me of just another way to make an inquisitor--and a weaker version at that. Is there something I'm missing?

That seems to be the general consensus

Honestly I had expected something more in line with the chameleon from races of destiny. In Fact if allowed to change focus each day and have a "dual focus" ability at 10th level where you can split your talents on two paths that is exactly what we would have.

Which is what I think I will do.

Maybe the zealot should have a way to display their zeal? Maybe a judgment-like or rage-like ability that can make them tougher, faster, better? And maybe some smite-like abilities?

I imagine a zealot vigilante acting in a 'verse where they are a religious minority. Maybe they should have a way to defend themselves from the divine magic of unbelievers and the members of rival faiths? Also, maybe a way to preach to the masses, converting them on down low.

1. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: "Baker by day; Vigilante by night," this guy has no business knowing how to wield martial weapons or shields, or even medium armor. I say remove all those, and instead grant them "Any one Exotic Weapon Proficiency of choice, or Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything or Improved Unarmed Strike feat." Perhaps then add "medium armor + shields" as an Avenger talent. I don't really see a Warlock or anything else really slinging shield and medium armor... If you think about most super heroes / vigilante genre characters, like Daredevil, they'll have weird weapon that's unusual or fight really good with their hands or whatever street sign or bar stool they get their hands on... I'd go even further and say that I wouldn't have a problem if they get all of the above listed feats instead of martial weapons and shields, or perhaps one bonus feat at level 1, 2, 3 and 4 (to choose from any one Exotic Weapon Proficiency of choice, or Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything or Improved Unarmed Strike feat) as this would make the most sense with a cape type with a secret identity.

2. Two alignments in one brain??!?!? I can't truly grasp the two alignment concept... really they should have a real alignment and perhaps their mundane/social alias should "pretend" to be a different alignment for the sake of blending into the society they live in, but to have two separate alignment in one brain just borders too much on multiple identity disorder to me... or maybe that's the point? I mean oracles have "curses" and this vigilante, well, he's just bat s@#% crazy and you have to accept it? if not, make it "Vigilante have one true alignment, but they can pretend to be any one other alignment within one step of their true alignment for the purpose of spell effects, alignment detection, and so on."

2. Two alignments in one brain??!?!? I can't truly grasp the two alignment concept... really they should have a real alignment and perhaps their mundane/social alias should "pretend" to be a different alignment for the sake of blending into the society they live in, but to have two separate alignment in one brain just borders too much on multiple identity disorder to me... or maybe that's the point? I mean oracles have "curses" and this vigilante, well, he's just bat s@#% crazy and you have to accept it? if not, make it "Vigilante have one true alignment, but they can pretend to be any one other alignment within one step of their true alignment for the purpose of spell effects, alignment detection, and so on."

This. They should be able to mask their true alignment to detection spells, but it's weird to say that a PC's general moral and personal attitudes change depending on what outfit they're wearing. Even if Clark Kent acts mild-mannered, he doesn't actually have different moral feelings from Superman when he's wearing glasses. There are very few dual-identity tropes where the two identities are separate personalities rather than just playing a social part while out of costume.

I also wonder how useful restricting the second alignment to being within one step of the first is, past allowing the secret villain to not ping evil to the paladin. I'd love to see a Zealot of Milani being able to maintain a cover identity as a loyal subject of the House of Thrune.

I don't really see why the Vigilante has to be within one step for their social alignment. For the Chaotic Good freedom fighter, masking himself as Neutral Good or Chaotic Neutral does not do much of any good if he's trying to hide from the Lawful Evil empire.

for those who are wondering how a vigilante would procure his equipment a non magical(neither Warlock or Zealot) could make his own using the Master Craftsman feat to build his gear

The concept of "having" multiple alignments isn't completely unheard of in PF or even 3.X. Use Magic Device allows a character to emulate alignments. The Master Spy prestige class can do all sorts of alignment shenanigans and can essentially "be" any alignment though they still do essentially still have only one "true" alignment. I don't really see how this is that different. Essentially, the Vigilante/Master Spy/UMD-User have mastered mental techniques that allow them to "be" different alignments for different reasons.

The concept of "having" multiple alignments isn't completely unheard of in PF or even 3.X. Use Magic Device allows a character to emulate alignments. The Master Spy prestige class can do all sorts of alignment shenanigans and can essentially "be" any alignment though they still do essentially still have only one "true" alignment. I don't really see how this is that different. Essentially, the Vigilante/Master Spy/UMD-User have mastered mental techniques that allow them to "be" different alignments for different reason.

Let's not forget horizon walker, which can be effected by things as if they were a different alignment (in some cases multiple alignments simultaneously).

xevious573 wrote:

The concept of "having" multiple alignments isn't completely unheard of in PF or even 3.X. Use Magic Device allows a character to emulate alignments. The Master Spy prestige class can do all sorts of alignment shenanigans and can essentially "be" any alignment though they still do essentially still have only one "true" alignment. I don't really see how this is that different. Essentially, the Vigilante/Master Spy/UMD-User have mastered mental techniques that allow them to "be" different alignments for different reason.

Let's not forget horizon walker, which can be effected by things as if they were a different alignment (in some cases multiple alignments simultaneously).

Thanks! Forgot one apparently.

The things Superman let's happen as Clark Kent, just to keep his identity safe, definitely make me think he's a different alignment with those glasses.

My (humorous) proof: Cracked.com.

I digress. I love the idea of the class, and will definitely try one out in PFS if I have the time. It does seem a little weak, but I'm assuming that's by design for playtest purposes. It's easier to scale up than scale down power, after all.

EDIT : the link doesn't work because of profanity filter, so if you want to read the article, you can search "superman identity" on cracked.

I don't really see why the Vigilante has to be within one step for their social alignment. For the Chaotic Good freedom fighter, masking himself as Neutral Good or Chaotic Neutral does not do much of any good if he's trying to hide from the Lawful Evil empire.

This is the issue I just ran into with my character. My original concept was to be a Chelish noble (LN) who has an alternate identity as a masked rebel wanting to destroy the Hell Knights and his own family, House Thrune as a secret follower of Milani (CG) Seemed to fit so perfectly, and it just dawned on me as we started play it was not allowed.

Unfortunately, there is no combo that would work both with the fluff and the crunch here. So I decided to hand wave it, okay I'm CG and, um, um NG (with strong lawful and not good tendencies to the point one would be really hard pressed to suggest I was anything but LN or even LE in my boring persona).

But, leads me to a question. What happens when there is a forced alignment change? Can I just not play anymore, period? What exactly happens when a Vigilante "falls"? Especially a Zealot?

Hopefully they drop the One Step rule, and especially for Zealot allow their social personality to not be affected by any of the normal Divine Class Alignment issues, or it basically just kills the class, whose one job is to hide amongst the enemy and secretly strike out for their faith. Not being able to blend in with the enemy you are fighting against basically paints a huge target on your face, cowled or not.

But, leads me to a question. What happens when there is a forced alignment change? Can I just not play anymore, period?

If a vigilante is

the target of an effect that would change his alignment,
it changes both alignments to the new alignment

I think that a Paladin/Vigilante should remain LG in both his identities.

It does already have to be LG in both identities if you're a paladin.

DM Beckett wrote:

But, leads me to a question. What happens when there is a forced alignment change? Can I just not play anymore, period?

Playtest PDF wrote:

If a vigilante is

the target of an effect that would change his alignment,
it changes both alignments to the new alignment

I meant in a way that violates the One Step Rule, or in the Zealot's more specific case, at least one of their alignments no longer is suitable for their faith. In Pathfinder/Golarion, if you have a Patron Deity, you must be within the alignment one step rule even if your not a divine caster.

Does it take 2 Atonements to fix? Two Epic quests to reprove your worth? What class features do they loose?

In PFS, that's potentially 6,000 gp or 16 PP, while Raise Dead is 5,450 or 16PP.

Joana wrote:

DM Beckett wrote:

But, leads me to a question. What happens when there is a forced alignment change? Can I just not play anymore, period?

Playtest PDF wrote:

If a vigilante is

the target of an effect that would change his alignment,
it changes both alignments to the new alignment

I meant in a way that violates the One Step Rule, or in the Zealot's more specific case, at least one of their alignments no longer is suitable for their faith. In Pathfinder/Golarion, if you have a Patron Deity, you must be within the alignment one step rule even if your not a divine caster.

Does it take 2 Atonements to fix? Two Epic quests to reprove your worth? What class features do they loose?

Well, since both alignments are changed, it shouldn't violate the one-step rule. And a vigilante who has his alignment forcibly changed isn't any worse off than a cleric, paladin, or monk under the same circumstances.

Your follow-up questions are certainly valid, though.

How about each path gets it's main ability for free instead of spending talents for it. So the avenger gets it's martial abilities, warlock/zealot gets spell casting and the last one getting it's sneak attack like ability. Maybe even giving the avenger a martial training path that it can choose such as unarmed strike like a brawler, favored enemy, weapon training, etc.

How about each path gets it's main ability for free instead of spending talents for it. So the avenger gets it's martial abilities, warlock/zealot gets spell casting and the last one getting it's sneak attack like ability. Maybe even giving the avenger a martial training path that it can choose such as unarmed strike like a brawler, favored enemy, weapon training, etc.

That might work..

Mark Seifter wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

Okay, my brother is planning on doing a 15th level playtest of the vigilante, does that count for the shadow body leak?

If it's with warlock and shadow body, and if he promises to run it, rather than it just being a possible plan, then it does count indeed. Let me know, though of course, it being the weekend, I'm not at the office, so I may or may not see until Monday.

Hmm... Seems my brother doesn't want to go warlock. I'll make the warlock shadow character then, may as well playtest two specializations at 15th level. Probably make them a secret cultist or something...

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.

In my opinion these are a good thing. Slow fall is too weak to be acceptable as a whole talent, and fighter + ability to do more than just stabbing people is a good thing. Fighter shouldn't be used as a measuring stick.

Edit: I hope that the warlock gets so artificer stuff in the end, magic a gadgeteer is difficult right now but having a talent that gave a item crafting feat as a bonus feat in the same vein as the avengers combat talent would be useful.

Since Milo v3 has promised to playtest a level 15 warlock (no small feat!) he has unlocked the following Occult Adventures preview. So let's hear it for Milo!

Shadow Body reminds me of Dr. Facilier's Voodoo Minions. ^_^

Also, how was the expo?

Shadow Body reminds me of Dr. Facilier's Voodoo Minions. ^_^

Yeah, that visual works very well, especially the parts with them sort of just sliding over the walls and sometimes becoming impossible to see when they overlapped with normal shadows.

Also, how was the expo?

It was pretty small and not many people, and PFS was pretty much doing their own thing with plenty of GMs, but Linda and I wound up being needed to help with the Adventure Card Game, which was running more games and only had one guy for it. Fortunately, despite not working on ACG at all, Linda and I play it a bunch, so we managed to do it!

Since Milo v3 has promised to playtest a level 15 warlock (no small feat!) he has unlocked the following Occult Adventures preview. So let's hear it for Milo!

** spoiler omitted **...

And I see this in the middle of the first playtest battle (frightening appearance is very fun even if it's for one round).

hmmm... Being able to stealth even against darkvision is a nice ability, the moving along walls sounds delightfully creepy, and it still lets the warlock use it's mystic bolt and spells. I'd prefer if it was more than once per day, but it is a playtest so it's sensible to be cautious with incorporeality.