Ultimate Intrigue—Vigilante Playtest!

Friday, June 19, 2015


Illustration by Miroslav Petrov

The streets of almost every large city are rife with corruption. Greedy merchants, cruel guards, and bloodthirsty gangs oppress the poor common folk and those who dare to stand up against them find themselves with the dagger in the back more often than not. That is where the vigilante comes in. With their true identity hidden behind a secret persona, the vigilante is unafraid to take the fight to the powerful. Of course, not all vigilantes fight for what is good and just. Some use their secret identity to commit acts of depravity, unburdened by guilt or consequence.

Due to release in early 2016, Ultimate Intrigue includes a new base class for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: the vigilante. By participating in this playtest, you can help us make this class a fun, vibrant part of the game.

Starting today, you can download a playtest version of the vigilante right here! Create a vigilante, use it in your games, and then head over the playtest forums to tell us what you think. Tell us what works with the class and what other abilities you think it should have. We need your thoughts and ideas to refine this class and get it ready to stalk through the shadows of game tables everywhere. We have two subforums for you to use: one for general discussion about the class and the playtest and another specifically for feedback based on actual play.

For the Pathfinder Society players, the playtest version of this class opens as a character option. And there will be a special Chronicle sheet available soon that allows you to gain benefits that increase in future utility the more sessions that you play a vigilante for the playtest, or GM a game with at least one vigilante player at the table.

This playtest will remain open until Thursday, July 20, 2015. Although the forum discussions will close as that time, we'll be setting up a “Final Thoughts” thread. That thread will remain open until August 17, 2015 and you can post in that thread once with your final comments and feedback from the playtest. As always, we ask that you check for an existing thread that covers your topic before starting a new one. Remember that we are all here to make a better vigilante, so please be polite and civil to your fellow playtesters and community members.

We are truly excited to see your thoughts and feedback on the vigilante. It's a class unlike any other that we've ever done and we hope it will make for an exciting addition to your game. See you on the boards!

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Tags: Miroslav Petrov Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Vigilantes
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Paizo Employee Designer

Milo v3 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:


Since Milo v3 has promised to playtest a level 15 warlock (no small feat!) he has unlocked the following Occult Adventures preview. So let's hear it for Milo!

** spoiler omitted **...

And I see this in the middle of the first playtest battle (frightening appearance is very fun even if it's for one round).

hmmm... Being able to stealth even against darkvision is a nice ability, the moving along walls sounds delightfully creepy, and it still lets the warlock use it's mystic bolt and spells. I'd prefer if it was more than once per day, but it is a playtest so it's sensible to be cautious with incorporeality.

Yeah, it wouldn't shock me if the final let you split up the time in increments of 1 minute (1 round at lower levels).


Milo v3 wrote:

And I see this in the middle of the first playtest battle (frightening appearance is very fun even if it's for one round).

hmmm... Being able to stealth even against darkvision is a nice ability, the moving along walls sounds delightfully creepy, and it still lets the warlock use it's mystic bolt and spells. I'd prefer if it was more than once per day, but it is a playtest so it's sensible to be cautious with incorporeality.

Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

I agree about the uses/day. Maybe it can be used in 1-round increments? If that's a bit much it could be kept at 1/day for levels 6-13 and become usable in 1-minute increments from level 14 onwards.

Overall, though, definitely a fun ability. I'd take it on a Warlock for sure. Thanks for sharing it with us, Mark!

Edit to add: I got ninja'd by the man himself, suggesting the very same thing as I thought of :D


Extra Anchovies wrote:


Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

It does let them cast "You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions", you just can't cast spells with a material component.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Extra Anchovies wrote:


Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

It does let them cast "You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions", you just can't cast spells with a material component.

Read the warlock ability, not the spell. "This effect lasts for 1 round per vigilante level, and the warlock vigilante can’t cast spells while in this form." Once you hit 14th, that's not an issue anymore, though!

And yeah, I really hope the final version of this can be split up over multiple rounds/minutes, I love the concept, but I find it really hard to justify a 1/day ability, even one as cool as that one.


Okay, first battle finished. Since it was the first fight I got an easy challenge of a 14th level NPC rogue from the NPC Codex. With coming out of stealth and causing the rogue to run away in fear with his first action (and taking a haste potion), and then paralysing it with hold person I was able to simply walk up to it, quick draw my gold-plated swordcane and kill the chain mauler with a TWF full attack.

Attack with mystic bolt got 19 damage, not much but the fear was a great rider effect, and the full attack did 102 damage. Admittedly, one of the hits with the mystic bolt in the full attack was a critical.

Although quick, it was fun to see an enemy described as "The chain mauler is a vicious sadist whose weapon allows her the bloodiest satisfaction.", run away in terror.

Luthorne wrote:


Read the warlock ability, not the spell. "This effect lasts for 1 round per vigilante level, and the warlock vigilante can’t cast spells while in this form." Once you hit 14th, that's not an issue anymore, though!

And yeah, I really hope the final version of this can be split up over multiple rounds/minutes, I love the concept, but I find it really hard to justify a 1/day ability, even one as cool as that one.

Ahh... Missed that.


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Personally I think one addition the martial focused guys should get is a Grit Pool type of mechanic.

The problem I notice a lot of people having is that the casters are too much more powerful than the martials.. but toning the casters to the martials is the wrong direction... the martials are just TOO weak. Giving them a Grit mechanic allows the designers to maybe tune up the powers the martial guys get by having a limited resource (utilizing points) and does not completely break the feel of the class.

My other suggestion is twofold. Either fix the progression of the spell casters, or if you want to do something different, allow the spell casters to cast off any list of their respective types (divine vs arcane) but keep the mandate of using their talents to unlock further levels of spell casting. This makes it so there is seen as some sort of justification for the ability (vs as it stands right now where it is seen as a tax for no reason since Magus and Inquisitor get full casting AND class abilities... and the Magus can cast even more than any Warlock... and they can do it in armor) since it creates a very interesting flavor and (especially for the warlock) allows for that flexibility to really be stretched but still be kept in check by their spells per day (which is abysmall... even at max training...)


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Maybe panache rather than grit? Since that's more charisma-y? Though... grit is more... gritty. Which is very vigilante-y


WEll that is why I said a Grit pool type of mechanic. Honestly I will always think of it as grit because Panache is just reflavored grit.. and I love Gunslingers :P but either way. A pool mechanic similiar to grit or Panache.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Maybe panache rather than grit? Since that's more charisma-y? Though... grit is more... gritty. Which is very vigilante-y

"Swear to me!"


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PIXIE DUST wrote:

Personally I think one addition the martial focused guys should get is a Grit Pool type of mechanic.

The problem I notice a lot of people having is that the casters are too much more powerful than the martials.. but toning the casters to the martials is the wrong direction... the martials are just TOO weak. Giving them a Grit mechanic allows the designers to maybe tune up the powers the martial guys get by having a limited resource (utilizing points) and does not completely break the feel of the class.

My other suggestion is twofold. Either fix the progression of the spell casters, or if you want to do something different, allow the spell casters to cast off any list of their respective types (divine vs arcane) but keep the mandate of using their talents to unlock further levels of spell casting. This makes it so there is seen as some sort of justification for the ability (vs as it stands right now where it is seen as a tax for no reason since Magus and Inquisitor get full casting AND class abilities... and the Magus can cast even more than any Warlock... and they can do it in armor) since it creates a very interesting flavor and (especially for the warlock) allows for that flexibility to really be stretched but still be kept in check by their spells per day (which is abysmall... even at max training...)

They'd have to make some Deeds that are really, really, REALLY damn good to even think about competing with spellcasting.


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Well, nothing is gonna compete with spellcasting sadly, but powering up the Martials would be a start, and Paizo seems really dead set on nerfing powers that don't come from a pool of some sort ("you can do them all day" is a poor excuse to give the fighter cruddy stuff... and 1/day abilities are just horrible for martials sadly...)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Kalindlara wrote:
Shadow Body reminds me of Dr. Facilier's Voodoo Minions. ^_^

I just saw Voodoo Glow Skulls IRL. :-)

Liberty's Edge

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Kalindlara wrote:
"Swear to me!"

I don't think you have to actually swallow the grit to have grit points.

At least I hope not, my Doc Holiday inspired Gunslinger doesn't really have the Constitution for that...


loooking through the book, it seems like the casting specializations are really bogged down by the talent requirements for their spellcasting. while i agree that getting their casting for free might be a little on the powerful side, it feels pretty bad to be so limited in your options compared to other 6-level casters. comparing the warlock to a magus, they get no casting with armor, less spells per day, and less other class features on top of that. if you want your already reduced casting to be at reasonable levels, you only get 2 other talents by level 12, which sort of defeats the purpose of having all of the talents in the first place.

maybe gain new spell levels without talents, but with only 1 spell per day of any level, and use talents to increase spells/day? it just feels like a huge tax on otherwise super cool, interesting options

Dark Archive

I dunno if this is the right thread, but as I posted my other ideas here, I figure this is as good as any of the threads about the playtest. In addition to my previous post other posters have given me ideas on how to best add more cool things to the avenger and stalker to make them more on par.

Avenger/Stalker changes:

The Avenger and Stalker need to be a little more than they currently are, but also not just straight up beat out what the fighter's/Rogue's job. So, using systems already created(if not core) I have come up with a solution. Below are additions to the Avenger and Stalker specializations.

Both the Avenger and Stalker gain Grit and the Deeds mentioned below.

The Avenger gains a stamina pool at 1st level as from Pathfinder: Unchained, if everyone already gains a stamina pool then instead the Avenger gains Extra Stamina and Push the Limits as bonus feats.

At 20th level instead of Vengeance Strike the Vigilante Avenger gains the following:
Avenger's Strike: As a full-round action the Avenger may move up to twice their speed and make any number of attacks they are normally allowed+1 along the path. This movement can instead be taken by a mount if the Avenger is mounted, and either way does not provoke attack of opportunity.

The Stalker gains an Inspiration pool based on Intelligence. They can use this pool only for attack rolls, saves, and Charisma based skill or ability checks.

At 20th level instead of Vengeance Strike the Vigilante Stalker gains the following:
Stalker's Ingenuity: The Stalker's Hidden Strike ability now applies to any opponent that is staggered or stunned. If the Stalker could make a Hidden Strike, it ignores all Armour and Natural Armour bonuses possessed by the foe. The Stalker is now only affected by Divination effects when they choose to be.

Grit:
The Avenger gains a grit pool that allows them to pull off amazing stunts to survive in even the most dire situations.
This Grit pool is equal to their charisma modifier, and they regain grit points whenever they confirm a critical hit or succeed at a check which had a good chance to kill them during combat(Ex: Jumping across buildings with a 100' drop and no way to reduce the falling damage).

Deeds:

Adrenaline Rush: At 1st level whenever the Vigilante would make a Strength or Dexterity based skill or ability check they may spend 1 grit point to add 1d4 to that roll.

Avenger's Vigilance: At 1st level the Vigilante reduces all negatives to Perception checks from distance or interference by half rounded up as long as they have at least 1 grit point in their grit pool.

Not Dead Yet: At 1st level the Vigilante may spend 1 grit point to receive 1d6 temporary hit points that last 1 minute, this is a morale effect. The amount of temporary hit points gained increases by 1d6 at 10th, and 20th level.

Power of Will: At 6th level whenever the Vigilante would make a save against a mind-affecting effect they may spend 1 grit point to add their Charisma bonus to that save.

Intense Training: At 6th level the Vigilante may spend 1 grit point when performing a full attack to replace any attack with a combat manoeuvre, these combat manoeuvres do not provoke attack of opportunity.

Push through the Pain: At 11th level whenever the Vigilante would be knocked unconscious from damage, they may spend 1 grit point to ignore up to their Vigilante level in damage for a number of rounds equal to their Charisma modifier, in addition during this time they add their Charisma score to their Constitution score to determine at what hit points they die.

One Hit, One Kill: At 11th level whenever the Vigilante could make a full attack, they may instead spend 2 grit points and make their maximum number of attack rolls from their base attack bonus vs. their opponents AC. For each hit the Vigilante rolls the weapon's damage die and adds their Charisma modifier to each hit. If the total damage exceeds 1/2 of the opponents hit points after applying damage reduction then instead of taking damage the opponent must make a fortitude save vs. the damage dealt+the Vigilante's Charisma modifier or be instantly killed. This is a death effect, all effects that prevent or apply to critical hits and sneak attack apply to this attack.

Intimidating Glower: At 16th level whenever the Vigilante makes an intimidate check, they may spend 1 grit point and make a gaze attack vs. one opponent within 30 feet. The opponent must make a Will save equal to the Avenger's level + the Avenger's Charisma modifier or be frightened for 3 rounds. The number of rounds increases to 3+ the Vigilante's Charisma modifier at 16th level. Once affected by the Vigilante's Intimidating Glower, the subject is immune to this effect for 24 hours.

No One Can Know: At 16th level whenever the Vigilante's secret identity is at risk, the Avenger may spend all remaining grit points in their grit pool to perform 2 full rounds of actions. These actions can only be used to escape or prevent their identity from being revealed. If the Vigilante's identity is revealed or they are in their social aspect instead the Vigilante may at any time spend 1 grit point to re-roll a disguise or bluff check.

Unflinching Dedication: At 19th level whenever the Vigilante would be affected by a negative condition(Ex: stunned, dazed) they may spend 1 grit point to ignore that condition for a number of rounds equal to their Charisma modifier. This may be done for separate conditions, but you must spend 1 grit point for each condition. This deed cannot be reduced by any feat or ability(such as signature deed).

Sense of Purpose: At 19th level whenever the Vigilante would deal a deciding blow to an enemy in combat, they may instead spend 2 grit points and forgo that blow to make a Charisma check with a bonus equal to the Vigilante's level to convert an opponent to their point of view. The opponent makes a will save vs. the Charisma check and receives a +5 on this save for every step in difference between their alignment and the Vigilante's(Ex: CE character receives a +20 bonus on this save vs a LG character, but a LE character receives only a +10 bonus.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Not had a chance to use the Vigilante yet, but very soon.

The feeling I get with all of the specializations from reading is that it's definitely the Intimidate class, and some folks have provided feedback that Intimidation should be a class skill, which I certainly agree with.

It might be interesting, with so many class abilities interacting with Intimidate, if the combat role and mechanics of the Vigilante were expanded to embrace that as a core mechanic, so that the unarmed strikes made by the vigilante are more effective against demoralized foes; perhaps bumping the damage rolls on demoralized targets up to monk/brawler levels or allowing Hidden Strike to have full effect on demoralised targets rather than flanked targets, to differentiate it from Sneak Attack.

A grit style mechanic would definitely be appropriate for this class and should it be implemented, also tied to Intimidate to allow point recharges, perhaps through successfully reducing a target to cowering by repeatedly intimidating them.

I'd actually favour having BOTH of these mechanics apply; have the Vigilante grow more powerful as combat progresses based on how many of her foes are afraid of her. The grit points feed the powers which trigger more intimidation rolls which generate more grit - literally make it the class that feeds on it's enemies fears.


I just hope that the final version of the warlock will be able to use its Concealed Casting ability even in his social guise in the final version. That ability is *made* for secretly casting spells on people when you aren't dressed in your costume.


Personally I think it's social guise shouldn't get it's "super powers" such as spells, martial powers, or sneak attack like ability.


I just read over the avenger/stalker/warlock parts of the class. (didnt bother with Zealot as Im not much into divine). everything looks pretty good. Couple things I might add to the Stalker though. I see a stalker as being a traditional spy/assassin. Socialite who poisons the chalice of the king by day, sneak in and stab the king in the heart in the bed by night.

1. give them access to poison use through a talent.

this will allow them to poison their blades or try and slip poison in someones drink/food. especially since it says they can add their sneak attack if the target doesnt notice their presence OR thinks they are an ALLY. When I read the sneak attack and saw the "or thinks they are an ally" part all I pictured was 2 men walking down the hall with their arms around each others shoulders laughing, but one man was holding a dagger ready to plunge in the other man with a quick move. best add poison to that blade in case you miss a vital spot at least you can still poison the man and finish the job.

2. Give them a talent that boosts stealth numerically. Im not talking about taking the negative from armor away, I mean something like "Feather Step; you have become so good at walking softly its almost as if your feet dont touch the ground. you gain a +5 competence to stealth checks and can hide in plain sight even when adjacent to another creature."

3. Give them a boost numerically to Bluff or Diplomacy. as I said this is the socialite assassin. So he would be able to talk his way close to his target (usually high ranking like a king)


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Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

Scarab Sages

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SmiloDan wrote:
There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.

All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.
All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.

For all that I am enjoying the vigilante so far, I really do think that the renown sizes are too small. It's especially weird that the sizes only really seem to matter for the social persona - "within miles equal to level" on the Intimidate side means you'll encompass an entire metropolis by 3rd or 4th level, while your social is still limited to something like a single city block.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Shisumo wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.
All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.
For all that I am enjoying the vigilante so far, I really do think that the renown sizes are too small. It's especially weird that the sizes only really seem to matter for the social persona - "within miles equal to level" on the Intimidate side means you'll encompass an entire metropolis by 3rd or 4th level, while your social is still limited to something like a single city block.

Yeah, if you can't get at least a district of Korvosa or Westcrown very early, there's an issue.


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The population problem could be funny in a game.

Quote:

Hey, you know what? There's another name you might know me by!

.....Starlord!!
Who!?!
Starlord man. Legendary outlaw?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Cubic Prism wrote:

The population problem could be funny in a game.

Quote:

Hey, you know what? There's another name you might know me by!

.....Starlord!!
Who!?!
Starlord man. Legendary outlaw?

Actually... I don't hate this. ^_^

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Maybe start out in Hell's Kitchen? Or maybe Heck's Pantry?

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And then a few levels later:

Quote:

KORATH: Star-Lord!

STAR-LORD: FINALLY.


Kalindlara wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
There are a lot of fun city-based campaign areas: Sigil, Greyhawk, Waterdeep, Absalom, Madripoor, Sanctuary, Lankhmar, Adrilankha, etc.
All of which have populations far too large for renown to work on. Even the smallest district of any of those cities has a population above 200.
For all that I am enjoying the vigilante so far, I really do think that the renown sizes are too small. It's especially weird that the sizes only really seem to matter for the social persona - "within miles equal to level" on the Intimidate side means you'll encompass an entire metropolis by 3rd or 4th level, while your social is still limited to something like a single city block.
Yeah, if you can't get at least a district of Korvosa or Westcrown very early, there's an issue.

You want Charm Person for the whole city at level 3? The only difference is instead of getting a save, they just have to not hate you as soon as you meet. You are well-liked in a small part of the community- everywhere else, you just get bonuses.


Kryzbyn wrote:
Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

Not really, this is the class the person who says "Ill be whatever the party needs to fill it out" takes. Lots of options. Not to mention someone who takes this class can say, Ill take this class but make a tank, so the rest of the group knows what to make to round out the party. (At least I hope there is some talk on what people are making to make a cohesive party, if not then your group might be screwed).

And all the Vigilante needs is a week in the new town to gain influence and the Intimidation benefit, he loses it in the old city but meh. and only needs to spend 4 hours a day during that week to do it. so once he's done mingling as his Social Identity he can go investigating, track down leads, gather info, stop some random crimes to maybe add more influence as his Vigilante Identity. for roleplaying purposes most GM's will say ya sure you can take that week to influence this town but roleplay it, I wanna hear what your character would say to people. Throw in that your Vigilante Identity also spends the week routing crimes and stuff and a couple skill checks later and boom you have now established the vigilante in the new town, without really impacting the story, even if its time sensitive (like Reign of Winter, the geas spell said it understood preping for the journey, well establishing a reputation to make gathering info and preping for your journey easier would be an understandable act).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:
Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...

And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

LazarX wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...
And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.

...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RainyDayNinja wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...
And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.
...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons.

1. No one is twisting your arms to play the class.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

3. There are people who have the talent to GM an appropriately themed campaign on their own.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...
And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.
...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons.

1. No one is twisting your arms to play the class.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

3. There are people who have the talent to GM an appropriately themed campaign on their own.

It does mean that there's a mechanical context we're not aware of yet, though... for a playtest, that could result in inaccurate data.

Also, I basically did #3 in CoT (with one PC who was basically a vigilante in all but name).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Seems that this class would only work well in a game where everyone in the party was a vigilante, and it was almost always in the same large city or area...
And I suspect that a significant amount of Ultimate Intrique will be about running campaigns in that style.
...Which means they're asking us to playtest a class designed for a type of campaign they haven't written yet.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons.

1. No one is twisting your arms to play the class.

2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

3. There are people who have the talent to GM an appropriately themed campaign on their own.

Well, the goal of a playtest is usually to get as much testing done as possible with as broad of an audience as possible... I don't know what Paizo has in mind with this one, but "This class isn't usable for me." would certainly be considered valuable feedback in many playtesting contexts. And it's not as if they've given us a list of situations they had in mind.


Dragon78 wrote:
Personally I think it's social guise shouldn't get it's "super powers" such as spells, martial powers, or sneak attack like ability.

I like the idea that the social guise has all or most of the abilities, but when he uses them he risks having his cover get blown. It could make him vulnerable to divination and such.


LazarX wrote:
2. There ARE scenarios that are social and intrigued theme already published by Paizo that are PERFECT for this class.

See also, Kingmaker.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I just realized that all of the strangeness with the social identity starts making sense if your superhero identity is a mechanized suit and your vigilante talents are represented as new tech. Hmm.


Terminalmancer wrote:
I just realized that all of the strangeness with the social identity starts making sense if your superhero identity is a mechanized suit and your vigilante talents are represented as new tech. Hmm.

I have been having trouble taking the vigilante class seriously ever since I started picturing them as power rangers. ;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Compton wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Any idea when the PFS chronicle sheet is gonna be available? Or if it can count the times played before the chronicle is available retroactively if it's not out til next week or so?
I anticipate having the Chronicle sheet as part of Monday's blog. I won't make promises about retroactive credit at this time, but I'm inclined to say that allowing it would be okay, given the duration of the playtest.

Any update on this?


"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,
he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.


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Dobreev wrote:

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.


Dobreev wrote:

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

Every time the Vigilante uses this, he will have a -6 penalty to AC. It would turn him into a glass cannon and probably get him killed.

I do have to ask though: Does that -4 penalty from Mad Rush kick in at the start of the charge or once he starts making the full attack? That is very important because I am sure many avengers are going to foolishly charge creatures with reach.


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Dobreev wrote:

"Mad Rush (Ex): Whenever the avenger vigilante charges,

he can make a full attack. Whenever he uses this ability, he
takes a –4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn
(in addition to the AC penalty for charging). An avenger
vigilante must be at least 12th level to select this talent."

That's insane. This talent will single-handedly kill any other melee-based martial build, doubly so for dual-wielding after level 12.

I'll be the first to say, martial melee characters *all* need easy access to a pounce-type feature to even begin to compete with archers... but if you give it to one while withholding it from others, there's no point in any other melee-character even showing up to the table.

The Mobile Fighter and pounce barbarian are still viable alternatives.


Quote:
Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.

Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.


The classes without effective pounce options are

Fighters: joke class
Swashbucklers: joke class
Bloodragers:Are strong enough to stand without pounce
Paladins:Same as Bloodrager
Cavaliers: Mounted charges are better than pounce in 90% of circumstances.
Slayers: The only non-joke martial class missing and needing a method for mobile damage.


Dobreev wrote:
Quote:
Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.
Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

I'm thinking you don't deal with Pounce that often if you think all 4 attacks are gonna hit. Have you actually seen the damage the avenger can do? Not much at that level compared to others. And this seems very late in the Pathfinder game about one more martial getting pounce-like effect. At this point, folks are happy more options are coming up. But -2 penalty to AC? Bleh


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Dobreev wrote:
Quote:
Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.
Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

It's sucked for them since the game released. It not sucking for some classes anymore doesn't change that.


Dobreev wrote:
Quote:
Barbs have had lv10 pounce for a long time, and yet there are still other martials.
Didn't know that, but the point still stands. Expanding the list of classes that get Pounce tacked on without really considering the martials that are getting left out in a cold, doomed to only swing only once if they have to move while Barbarians and Vigilantes put out 4x their damage in the same situation, is going to start to suck for them eventually.

mweh, there will probably be a feat for "amateur vigilante" that allows you to select a second feat to gain a vigilante talent. Also, Pummeling Style exists on top of the barbarian.


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I just realized that my favorate part of the Vigilante class is that now I have the Arcane and Divine Rogue variants that I always wanted.

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