Ultimate Intrigue—Vigilante Playtest!

I am wondering why Mystic Bolts requires level 4. I suppose because it is a bit more reliable at that level, but I think it would benefit the specialization to have that option of an alternate to a weapon earlier on (especially since at level 4, it competes with improving your spells)

I believe it's for the reason you parenthetically observed; it intentionally competes with improving your spells. Given that you have to wait til 8th to get 3rd level spells anyway, you have a choice: mystic bolts at 4th and 2nd level spells at 6th, or vice versa? Even though 2nd level spells are a very useful option, it's actually not a no-brainer, particularly if you think someone else in the party might be providing haste at 5th.

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.

Some initial concerns is that the Avenger can take "Combat Talent" at every even level and have the same number of feats as a Fighter, while also having better social skills and abilities. Even worse, some of his talents actually grant multiple feats, so he can be nearly equal to the fighter in combat ability, and better in the social ability. Plus, he's much less likely to succumb to Will saves (though Fort are now a concern).

The other two concerns (well, 1 concern and 1 annoyance) are Perfect Fall and Twisting Fear. Perfect Fall kicks Monks' Slow Fall right in the gonads. As soon as you take the ability, you can fall any distance without taking damage if you are within arms reach of a wall or other surface. Not only is it instant "fall any distance" whereas the Monk has to slowly scale up until he can do the same, but the Monk is, per RAW, limited to only falling near walls (even Unchained Monk needs walls). Very annoying.

As a side note, certain versions of Stalkers will be capable of falling the maximum distance and taking 20d6 points of damage and surviving, with a decent chance of occurrence, at second level. A 16 con Stalker with Toughness and FCB could have 15 hp at first level, and about ~23 hp at second level. Average damage of 20d6 is ~70 which is halved by perfect fall to ~35 points of damage. This means the Stalker could fall from 200 feet with no way of slowing his fall, hit the ground and survive. He'd be unconscious (and bleeding out), but he'd survive. Only second level to boot. Just to make it worse, once he heals, he should be able to do it again (assuming average results).

Twisting Fear is odd, as a Stalker Vigilante can K.O. whole crowds of people in an instant. Dazzling Display allows for an intimidate check against everyone within 30 ft. and applies the shaken condition. Twisting Fear deals half hidden strike damage to those the Stalker gives the shaken condition. So a Stalker could make a Dazzling Display, and roll hidden strike damage, and apply half of it to all beings within 30 ft. of him. For low level creatures, he could conceivably knock out an entire crowd of NPCs with a single round and no resources consumed.

Picture the scene from Indiana Jones when that guy does that display with his sword, except all of the onlookers then scream in pain and collapse unconscious.

I plan on reading more of the Vigilante later, but I'm not very enthused with the class. I don't like the forced flavor, or that mechanics are being given to what used to be a roleplay aspect of the game.

Are Warlock talents intended to be competitive with advancing their casting to the point where not getting all 6 levels would be a viable option? I think that's a great idea, but I don't think it's feasible at this time.

Should Avengers get a Good Fort Save? Seems odd, but also kind of puts them in an odd place for Balance. It makes sense they would also have a good Refl and Will, so I'd be hard presses to drop those, but all good saves is too much.

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.....

Rather than quote his entire post, I'll just simply say I agree with what Tels brings up about Perfect Fall (it's too good) and Twisting Fear (seems OP). But whereas Tels was sick I'm buzzed on the painkillers I have to take so I, or we, may be entirely wrong, but those two features just seem too good to be true.

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.

Some initial concerns is that the Avenger can take "Combat Talent" at every even level and have the same number of feats as a Fighter, while also having better social skills and abilities. Even worse, some of his talents actually grant multiple feats, so he can be nearly equal to the fighter in combat ability, and better in the social ability. Plus, he's much less likely to succumb to Will saves (though Fort are now a concern).

Still the fighter has Weapon Training and Armor Training.

On top of that, surpassing the Fighter isn't a sign of overpowered-ness by itself, as the Fighter is a subpar class.

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.....

Rather than quote his entire post, I'll just simply say I agree with what Tels brings up about Perfect Fall (it's too good) and Twisting Fear (seems OP). But whereas Tels was sick I'm buzzed on the painkillers I have to take so I, or we, may be entirely wrong, but those two features just seem too good to be true.

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

I regret that I'll probably not get to playtest the Vigilante with my group. We're not scheduled to even get together again until July 11th and getting one of them to play it would be like pulling and unwilling dragon's teeth. I hope I can work it in as an NPC, maybe as an adversary for them.

Mark Seifter wrote:

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

I regret that I'll probably not get to playtest the Vigilante with my group. We're not scheduled to even get together again until July 11th and getting one of them to play it would be like pulling and unwilling dragon's teeth. I hope I can work it in as an NPC, maybe as an adversary for them.

No worries. We can always use more, but I'm sure we'll get at least some playtests coming in as time goes by!

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.....

Rather than quote his entire post, I'll just simply say I agree with what Tels brings up about Perfect Fall (it's too good) and Twisting Fear (seems OP). But whereas Tels was sick I'm buzzed on the painkillers I have to take so I, or we, may be entirely wrong, but those two features just seem too good to be true.

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

2 Levels of Stalker Vigilante and anyone can fall any distance and survive within arms reach of a wall or other surface. At a certain point (second level) even the wall isn't necessarily needed. By 5th level, most everyone can fall any distance, with or without the wall (with perfect fall) and survive because of 1 single talent.

I just don't understand why 1 single talent is leagues better than the Monk's Slow Fall considering he can't fall any distance without taking damage until 20th level! Hell, he can't even start slow falling until 4th level. I mean, it's bloody ridiculous that a 19th level Monk and a 2nd level Stalker can both jump off a 3,000 foot cliff and slide to the bottom, but the Monk takes damage and the Stalker doesn't. The Unchained Monk can, at least, fall any distance, but it requires the expenditure of resources (that he can't afford to expend) to do it.

Core Rule Book is supposed to be the sacred cow and things that share the same niche aren't supposed to be so drastically better that the CRB is obsolete in every way. But I guess someone wanted some steaks and sent this cow to the butcher.

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.....

Rather than quote his entire post, I'll just simply say I agree with what Tels brings up about Perfect Fall (it's too good) and Twisting Fear (seems OP). But whereas Tels was sick I'm buzzed on the painkillers I have to take so I, or we, may be entirely wrong, but those two features just seem too good to be true.

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

Regarding twisting fear:

Mark Seifter wrote:

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.....

Rather than quote his entire post, I'll just simply say I agree with what Tels brings up about Perfect Fall (it's too good) and Twisting Fear (seems OP). But whereas Tels was sick I'm buzzed on the painkillers I have to take so I, or we, may be entirely wrong, but those two features just seem too good to be true.

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

Regarding twisting fear:

IMO the problem ist not that the talent is too good, but it leads to boring one-trick-pony gameplay. if the opponents are not immune to fear or non-lethal damage I just need to stand there and use dazzling display each round until they drop. It is quite easy to maximize intimidate to the point where avery attempt is a success, because the mechanic gives no way to protect against it, unless you are immune against fear.

To be fair, it's really only useful against creatures way under your level. Hidden Strike damage caps out at 10d6, and because it's not a sneak attack, you don't get shenanigans like Sap Adept/Master to boost it.

Even at max damage, Twisting Fear isn't going to do a lot of damage, especially not enough to actually end fights against anything other than very low level mooks.

It certainly does make for an interesting villain, I guess. Introduce him early on with him making a Dazzling Display and knocking the PCs unconscious using nothing more than his mastery of a blade, and then walking away.

[Edit] Actually, even if it were Sneak Attack, Sap Adept/Master wouldn't apply here, so you're still not getting huge damage numbers out of it.

Core Rule Book is supposed to be the sacred cow and things that share the same niche aren't supposed to be so drastically better that the CRB is obsolete in every way. But I guess someone wanted some steaks and sent this cow to the butcher.

Sacred cow up to a point. Classes like the fighter, rogue and core monk are severely lackluster and other classes that cover similar niches shouldn't be gimped in order to not make those look bad.

The classes should be balanced against more rounded classes like the bard or the ranger, rather than the underpowered ones.

Tels wrote:

Core Rule Book is supposed to be the sacred cow and things that share the same niche aren't supposed to be so drastically better that the CRB is obsolete in every way. But I guess someone wanted some steaks and sent this cow to the butcher.

Sacred cow up to a point. Classes like the fighter, rogue and core monk are severely lackluster and other classes that cover similar niches shouldn't be gimped in order to not make those look bad.

The classes should be balanced against more rounded classes like the bard or the ranger, rather than the underpowered ones.

Honestly, yes, we all know this. It doesn't matter, because classes like the Monk, Rogue and Fighter are still there and are still used as the balancing metric.

The classes aren't going to go away, so comments like these are pointless. Maybe in future edition, things will change, but until that happens, they are still going to be there.

The Fighter is always going to be the measurement stick of how good a martial class is. The Rogue is always going to be the unit of measurement for skill classes. The Monk is always going to be how an unarmed melee class is measured.

It doesn't matter what should be done, but what is done. Besides, if we're going to talk about what should be done, then the those classes should have been better in the first place.

[Edit] By the way, when it comes to balancing things, it always caters to the least powerful ability. Remember, Paizo doesn't want to so obviously obviate a class. Whatever is used as the least powerful metric will always hold back the designs of new material.

I really like this class, especially the Warlock and Avenger paths for the Vigilante, but I'd like if there was a way to mix-and-match the paths a little, instead of being stuck on one.

Reviewing over the play-test packet I would echo the idea mentioned in another post about merging the Avenger and Stalker specializations keeping some of the more unique abilities so that the specialization isn't a "bad" fighter or rogue.

Perhaps a Gadgeteer specialization could work? Move the bombs ability from warlock into that one and have access to grappling hooks and a nifty tool belt?

Currently the ability that I adore the most would be the tattoo chamber under the Warlock specialization, I think some more unique abilities like this would help separate the vigilante from some of the classes it is emulating with specializations.

Who cares about the falling talent? It's no better than a 1st-level spell!

Ravingdork wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

pixierose wrote:

So I managed to make a "Hulk" build using the Warlock specilization.

Focus your small amount on spells like enlarge person, bears endurance, and bull strength.

Pick up mystic bolt and elemental armor for, acid("gamma radiation") or fire(" you can be red hulk")
Arcane strike( sonic damage for that sonic clap)

A few othee things here and there.

That could be cool! We have an in-house freelancer working on vigilante archetypes, and I've heard that a more specifically Hulk type archetype is at least on the list of possibilities being considered. Sound interesting?

I wonder what they are going to replace to get rage.

No clue. Could wind up using mutagen, master chymist-y stuff, or even something different. If they do go that route, I'm looking forward to seeing it!

With a little luck it will be a unique "bulking" mechanic that will stack with barbarian rage and mutation warrior mutagen. Only then might we see the extreme levels of strength that the Hulk was known for.

Did anyone else notice that you can combine non-lethal spells and mystic bolt? I thought that was neat.

That combo and the ability to switch between lethal and non lethal damage couple with the dual identity and you know what you get?

The Emperor!

I thought of a cool thing you could add on that would help people like the dual identity thing more, as it stands it is detrimental if people find out about your identity. There should be an option(or archetype) of revealing your secret identity to lose the bonuses it gives you in return for everyone thinking your awesome and attractive(starting attitudes are two higher for those that like the vigilante part of you, two less for those that don't, bonuses on cha based skills, etc. but you lose all the disguisey abilities)

Mark Seifter wrote:

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.....

Rather than quote his entire post, I'll just simply say I agree with what Tels brings up about Perfect Fall (it's too good) and Twisting Fear (seems OP). But whereas Tels was sick I'm buzzed on the painkillers I have to take so I, or we, may be entirely wrong, but those two features just seem too good to be true.

On the other hand, there are others saying they think stalker is too weak. The talents are intentionally very good. I figured there would be people on both sides of opinion though. I'd like to see these guys in playtest before we reach a conclusion.

2 Levels of Stalker Vigilante and anyone can fall any distance and survive within arms reach of a wall or other surface. At a certain point (second level) even the wall isn't necessarily needed. By 5th level, most everyone can fall any distance, with or without the wall (with perfect fall) and survive because of 1 single talent.

I just don't understand why 1 single talent is leagues better than the Monk's Slow Fall considering he can't fall any distance without taking damage until 20th level! Hell, he can't even start slow falling until 4th level. I mean, it's bloody ridiculous that a 19th level Monk and a 2nd level Stalker can both jump off a 3,000 foot cliff and slide to the bottom, but the Monk takes damage and the Stalker doesn't. The Unchained Monk can, at least, fall any distance, but it requires the expenditure of resources (that he can't afford to expend) to do it.

Core Rule Book is supposed to be the sacred cow and things that share the same niche aren't supposed to be so drastically better that the CRB is obsolete in every way. But I guess someone wanted some steaks and sent this cow to the butcher.

To be honest it sounds like Slow Fall from the Monk is the problem, not the Vigilante.

Also the CRB stopped being the universal measuring stick the second we got the APG and Barbarians became better in just about every way+Rangers got instant enemy. The release of Slayer, Cavalier, Samurai, Bloodrager, and Unchained Monk only further destroyed the Fighters place in the game.

Well, honestly. I prefer to keep the "supernatural", if you will, extraordinary abilities as close to or after 6th level. E6, Alexandrian's "Calibrating Expectations", and all that shenangians. I realize this is supposed to be the "Superhero" class... but Level 2 is way to early for that type of Superhero ability to show up for a Mundane.

Well, honestly. I prefer to keep the "supernatural", if you will, extraordinary abilities as close to or after 6th level. E6, Alexandrian's "Calibrating Expectations", and all that shenangians. I realize this is supposed to be the "Superhero" class... but Level 2 is way to early for that type of Superhero ability to show up for a Mundane.

I on the other hand think fighters and non spellcasters should get nice things.

Perhaps I think the nice things should be in the range when the disparity between casters and martials is truly widening like 9th level and above?

I know psychic magic was already mentioned, but what about alchemical vigilantes? It definitely fits the class' feel.

Perhaps I think the nice things should be in the range when the disparity between casters and martials is truly widening like 9th level and above?

Feather Fall is a first level spell. Hell, a Ring of Feather fall is only 2.2k.

There's an awesome pair of boots for around 2k as well. Admittedly I don't expect my characters to fall hundred of feet in the early levels. I expect them to fall 10 to 20 feet. Turns out if we use that set of expectations, Noncasters DO have the equivalent of Feather Fall, doesn't even require a spell per day or a spell prepared/known. We call it Acrobatics.

EDIt: Boots of the Cat costs 1k and are a required item for my favorite Dragoon build.

There's an awesome pair of boots for around 2k as well. Admittedly I don't expect my characters to fall hundred of feet in the early levels. I expect them to fall 10 to 20 feet. Turns out if we use that set of expectations, Noncasters DO have the equivalent of Feather Fall, doesn't even require a spell per day or a spell prepared/known. We call it Acrobatics.

Have fun making that check in full plate!

I don't think I've ever seen a spellcaster prepare Feather Fall for the record, so I think both the fighter and the wizard/cleric would screwed.

xevious573 wrote:

Perhaps I think the nice things should be in the range when the disparity between casters and martials is truly widening like 9th level and above?

Feather Fall is a first level spell. Hell, a Ring of Feather fall is only 2.2k.

Also Sylphs are born with FF 1/day, Witches can get permanent FF at 1st level with the Flight Hex, and Shamans can get Flight Hex by second level.

I mean, if you're spending one of your only ten talents on being better at falling, with a character who doesn't have lots of spells and stuff to handle things, shouldn't you get something pretty big? Martials can have pretty cool non-DPR things too, but only if we (by we I mean we all the players and GMs, not we the design team) are OK with it (and for the record, it might be better to compare the Unchained monk, which no longer has a limit but does have to spend ki; however, if you're making lots of falls every single day such that the ki starts adding up, that's pretty unusual in my mind). Anyway, the way some people are talking, it sounds like Perfect Fall is an obvious selection for them, but for me, there's other stalker talents I would likely take instead depending on the build (though Perfect Fall + the feign death one are a fun combo for that stereotypical thing in movies in comics where they fall off a cliff but you didn't see the body, and they aren't actually dead).

Sooo my warlock Hulk build in terms of talent would look something like this.

Casters Defense
Mystic Bolt (acid)
Arcane Training II
Elemental battle armor (acid)
Arcane strike
Educated Defense
Shadow Jump
Arcane Training III
Arcane Training IV
Arcane Training V

I thought maybe bond of blood but i sidnt know where to place it, i want to access certain things that I feel more "urgent" but later levels im not really ssure how useful only 1d6 temporary hit points is worth it.

The three arcane trainings in the back are placeholders. Because spell slots are always useful.. but other abilities would have been good too. The tattoo seems like a useful one to have.
My spells would be more about "buffing" me meelee anyways.

For other character aspects I imagine I wouldnt focus so much on charisma and more on my strength/int and con, and maybe some in dex.

Feat wise i might go the two weapon route?

I mean, if you're spending one of your only ten talents on being better at falling, with a character who doesn't have lots of spells and stuff to handle things, shouldn't you get something pretty big? Martials can have pretty cool non-DPR things too, but only if we (by we I mean we all the players and GMs, not we the design team) are OK with it (and for the record, it might be better to compare the Unchained monk, which no longer needs surfaces but does have to spend ki; however, if you're making lots of falls every single day such that the ki starts adding up, that's pretty unusual in my mind). Anyway, the way some people are talking, it sounds like Perfect Fall is an obvious selection for them, but for me, there's other stalker talents I would likely take instead depending on the build (though Perfect Fall + the feign death one are a fun combo for that stereotypical thing in movies in comics where they fall off a cliff but you didn't see the body, and they aren't actually dead).

You misunderstand me. I have a problem with WHEN it is available. NOT that it is available. It breaks expectations for a guy who is barely not a commoner (lvl 2) to be able to fall a mile and expect to survive. If this guy had bit more power and experience under his belt, then I'm fine and cool with it.

As to talking about spellcasters preparing Feather Fall or taking the flight hex. That starts getting into the differences between a character who has a limited amount of resources per day (spellcasters) vs a character who can go all day and doesn't need to spend per day resources to do their "thing". With "mundanes", this gets difficult to figure out how exactly to give them powers that are equivalent(ish) to what the spellcasters get without breaking them into utterly supernatural areas [note: I actually have a large capacity to accept something as merely extraordinary and not necessary magic]. It is a difficult task and is much more complicated once we start discussing numbers.

I mean, if you're spending one of your only ten talents on being better at falling, with a character who doesn't have lots of spells and stuff to handle things, shouldn't you get something pretty big? Martials can have pretty cool non-DPR things too, but only if we (by we I mean we all the players and GMs, not we the design team) are OK with it (and for the record, it might be better to compare the Unchained monk, which no longer has a limit but does have to spend ki; however, if you're making lots of falls every single day such that the ki starts adding up, that's pretty unusual in my mind). Anyway, the way some people are talking, it sounds like Perfect Fall is an obvious selection for them, but for me, there's other stalker talents I would likely take instead depending on the build (though Perfect Fall + the feign death one are a fun combo for that stereotypical thing in movies in comics where they fall off a cliff but you didn't see the body, and they aren't actually dead).

A monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent by expending 1 point from his ki pool. When he uses this ability, he takes no damage from the fall (as if using feather fall), but he must be adjacent to a wall for the length of the fall (although this can be used to reduce the damage from a fall if only part of it is adjacent to a wall).

Yes, yes he does require a surface, he also requires the expenditure of a resource. I even pointed this out in my initial post about Perfect Fall. Keep in mind, it explicitly calls out needing a wall, where as Perfect Fall requires a wall "or any surface".

Slow Fall is also such a bad talent to pick that I have never heard of anyone take it intentionally. Pre unchained it was archetype and Qingong fodder. Post Unchained it's an option no one takes.

If it's a bad option, it's a bad option. At least the Vigilante one is better, if still bad.

I can just see the scenario now. Our Big Bad has captured the party, and has them all tied up at the top of his tower as he reveals his dastardly plan:

"Und now I shall dangle you interfering dolts over ze precipice wall, where ze rats shall slowly chew through the rope strand by agonizing strand, until it finally snaps, und you all fall to your deaths! Muahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!"

He stops laughing, and then points at the Stalker.

"Except for zat vun. Ve shall just kill him outright."

"I told you you should have picked up 'Another Day' instead, Batdude!"

"D'OH!"

I was completely underwhelmed when I heard about the new class even as I was overjoyed about the idea of Ultimate Intrigue as a whole. So after 9 straight of days work I finally get a day off and a chance to read the playtest document.

WOW! I'm completely sold. I would like to see a "Psychic" specialization and I think there may be room for a "charismatic leader" specialization.

As I was reading it the image of a ninja clan who maintained the appearance of a peaceful village with Vigilante "commoners" while the Slayers and Ninjas hid among them or in a secret stronghold deeper in the surrounding forest or mountains came to mind. Officials who become to nosey meet unfortunate "accidents" that seem to plague the cursed village.

A traveling circus or festival where the performers and crew are Vigilantes also came to mind. The circus travels the land robbing the locals blind or maybe righting terrible wrongs or maybe a little of both.

I'll read more tonight after I catch up on other things.

SM

I was completely underwhelmed when I heard about the new class even as I was overjoyed about the idea of Ultimate Intrigue as a whole. So after 9 straight of days work I finally get a day off and a chance to read the playtest document.

WOW! I'm completely sold. I would like to see a "Psychic" specialization and I think there may be room for a "charismatic leader" specialization.

As I was reading it the image of a ninja clan who maintained the appearance of a peaceful village with Vigilante "commoners" while the Slayers and Ninjas hid among them or in a secret stronghold deeper in the surrounding forest or mountains came to mind. Officials who become to nosey meet unfortunate "accidents" that seem to plague the cursed village.

A traveling circus or festival where the performers and crew are Vigilantes also came to mind. The circus travels the land robbing the locals blind or maybe righting terrible wrongs or maybe a little of both.

I'll read more tonight after I catch up on other things.

SM

you're circus idea reminds me of the 1602 version of the guardians of the galaxy.

I also think this would be a really great concept for a modern campaign.. like a combo of shadowrun and marvel 2099

Salafax wrote:

First of all -- Thanks, Paizo! I've been looking forward to this since the PaizoCon announcement

Second -- There are several abilities that trigger off of atacking foes unaware of the Vigilante's presence or consider him an ally. Are there some examples of how a player is intended to pull this off in an adventure/scenario? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this concept. Thanks!!!

It's likely that if you are personally stealthing or invisible, foes won't be aware of your presence at the start of combat (they may know about the other loud party members who were clanking from hundreds of feet away, but probably not you).

Thanks, Mark! That's what I got from the second read. The challenge I'm seeing now (granted, without yet playtesting) is that having access to regular invisibility at low levels is tough, especially for such a key ability.

Also, your example of party members "hundreds of feet away" hasn't been my experience in PFS play. More often that not, we end of bunched up due to map constraints then the GM yells "roll for initiative." Stealth during combat is really tough.

Milo v3 wrote:

Okay, my brother is planning on doing a 15th level playtest of the vigilante, does that count for the shadow body leak?

If it's with warlock and shadow body, and if he promises to run it, rather than it just being a possible plan, then it does count indeed. Let me know, though of course, it being the weekend, I'm not at the office, so I may or may not see until Monday.

Hmm... Seems my brother doesn't want to go warlock. I'll make the warlock shadow character then, may as well playtest two specializations at 15th level. Probably make them a secret cultist or something...

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.

In my opinion these are a good thing. Slow fall is too weak to be acceptable as a whole talent, and fighter + ability to do more than just stabbing people is a good thing. Fighter shouldn't be used as a measuring stick.

Edit: I hope that the warlock gets so artificer stuff in the end, magic a gadgeteer is difficult right now but having a talent that gave a item crafting feat as a bonus feat in the same vein as the avengers combat talent would be useful.

Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.

In my opinion these are a good thing. Slow fall is too weak to be acceptable as a whole talent, and fighter + ability to do more than just stabbing people is a good thing. Fighter shouldn't be used as a measuring stick.

Agreed. The only time when fighter should be measured against is for damage numbers.

Edit: I hope that the warlock gets so artificer stuff in the end, magic a gadgeteer is difficult right now but having a talent that gave a item crafting feat as a bonus feat in the same vein as the avengers combat talent would be useful.

It would be cool to see an "inventor" specialization where they get an alchemy progression, can take bombs as a talent (Warlock would lose access to bombs) and get a bunch of cool crafting stuff.

It would be cool to see an "inventor" specialization where they get an alchemy progression, can take bombs as a talent (Warlock would lose access to bombs) and get a bunch of cool crafting stuff.

I hope they don't make an inventor specialization just alchemy progression since inventor vigilante's in fiction are only very very very very very rarely chemical based. Using the formulae mechanics from alchemist would be fine, but I really don't want it to be using extracts when they don't fit at all.

Inventors vigilantes should make devices, not drugs.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

A warlock would probably be interesting to play in a setting where arcane casting is feared.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Part of me wonders if this is going to be a genderfluid iconic.

I mean, I figure it's unlikely, since it'd be a bit gimmicky, but it would be kinda interesting to see.

There's already a genderfluid iconic, the ninja.

Uhh...I totally knew that. No reason we can't have two!

All these iconics are hard to keep track of. There's a ninja iconic? ;P

You probably haven't seen the ninja iconic because s/he's a ninja. ;-)

Look out your window. See that "empty" street? Ninja parade.
Look under your bed for monsters. See "nothing" there? Ninja monsters.
Look over your shoulder. "Nobody" there? Ninja. Watching. Waiting.

Oh, okay, that makes...wait. Should I be concerned if there is something under my bed?

No. You should be concerned if it gets IN your bed.

So, wait...really? The falling ability seems pretty good to me. Virtual immunity to falling damage (especially from pit traps/cliffs) and I get to always land on my feet. Just avoiding prone alone is pretty nice. Do most gamers not deal with falling damage often?

So, wait...really? The falling ability seems pretty good to me. Virtual immunity to falling damage (especially from pit traps/cliffs) and I get to always land on my feet. Just avoiding prone alone is pretty nice. Do most gamers not deal with falling damage often?

I rarely see it in home games, but PFS writers have some weird DM boner for climb-based environmental hazards.

So, wait...really? The falling ability seems pretty good to me. Virtual immunity to falling damage (especially from pit traps/cliffs) and I get to always land on my feet. Just avoiding prone alone is pretty nice. Do most gamers not deal with falling damage often?

I had a character take a d6 of falling damage one time…

My thoughts.

I attempted to remain optimistic and less scathing than usual up through the end when the "vigilante Feats" sidebar kinda ticked me off.

Overall it's a decent concept that is poorly executed in most aspects IMO, especially the Stalker and almost all of its universal class abilities.

I saw a samurai almost die of falling damage after chasing a BBEG in a PFS game before, then I chased after him with a pregen cleric to heal him, and then convert him to Sarenrae.

Most of my fall damage comes purposefully, whether jumping off a building or dimension dooring above an enemy or some such. I have a Dragoon(Fighter Archetype) build that relies on jumping off a flying mount and using the Branch Pounce feat from Heroes of the Wild to do lotsa damage. This build was going to use Boots of the Cat to minimize my own fall damage. Due to quirks of wording on the feat and magic item involve in this combination, I would take minimal damage and the target of my charge would take full.

At higher level, my dragoon archetype should (in theory) let me jump back onto my mount instead of landing adjacent to the target of my charge. I assumed my mount dive bombed downward.