Ultimate Intrigue—Vigilante Playtest!

It's mostly a pretty decent class and does a good job of being the same role as an Investigator or Alchemist without being as complicated.

The Avenger Specialization seems oddly weak though. Compared to Slayer you get significantly reduced combat effectiveness for decent social skill use and more MADness.

I would change the Base Ability to include some sort of boost to attack/damage. I think this could be most easily accomplished with inherent bonuses to str as you level.

The Hide in Plain Sight Stalker talent really needs to be a base class feature for the Avenger and Zealot specializations to actually have a chance to use their stealth specialty stuff. Otherwise it's mostly a waste of page space.

Genuine wrote:

I suspect that Warlock characters are going to end up feeling very feat starved after taking extra talent feats.

There are not any extra talent feats for vigilantes, see the sidebar on pg 13.

That said, you don't need to take every casting talent if you don't want to. Spells give a lot of utility, but some of the talents are quite powerful, and may be worth sacrificing or delaying casting to pick up.

the side bar only says that there will probably not be an extra talent feat, in the final version they might put one in, also to most people that part about spell-casting would probably be considered blasphemy

Frightening Presence "any enemies with 10 feet" should be "within 10 feet".

I read this as an ability for demoralizing pesky remorhazes.

My first read-through caught a number of grammar issues. This one right away popped out:

The vigilante can start each day in either of his identities, referred to simply as social or vigilante.

I felt like there should be a the in there, but I'm not sure if the social is the intended use here? What if my daytime personality is Edward Nigma and I'm a bit anti-social? :)

Imbicatus wrote:

Genuine wrote:

I suspect that Warlock characters are going to end up feeling very feat starved after taking extra talent feats.

There are not any extra talent feats for vigilantes, see the sidebar on pg 13.

That said, you don't need to take every casting talent if you don't want to. Spells give a lot of utility, but some of the talents are quite powerful, and may be worth sacrificing or delaying casting to pick up.

the side bar only says that there will probably not be an extra talent feat, in the final version they might put one in, also to most people that part about spell-casting would probably be considered blasphemy

The sidebar states that the vigilante talents are stronger than other classes' talents or varied options and that's why there probably isn't gonna be any Extra Vigilante Talent feat. Unless they weaken the talents in the final version, I'm thinking that "No extra talent feat for vigilantes" thinking is most likely gonna stick around by then.

also to most people that part about spell-casting would probably be considered blasphemy

True. But it's never going to be a full 3/4s casting class anyway. Each talent only gives you 1 spell of the new level and two of the previous. Even if you take all the spellcasting talents, your spell slots per day are extremely limited with 4/3/3/3/2/1.

First impressions:
It looks like the zealot is pretty much the way to go. The MAD warlock in a far second. The avenger with equivalent full BAB is a distant third, and stalker is dead last. I think the avenger and stalker should have a bit more to offset the fact that the spellcasters have spells. Having full BAB doesn't offset that. Gaining 1d4 every odd level (1d6 if you're not noticed) does not offset that. However, I'll admit that a MAD spellcaster does bring down their effectiveness somewhat.
For anyone relatively experienced in Pathfinder first trying out the class, the zealot would be the way to go, with the avenger being second. The other two would take more planning, and a specific campaign setting. That said, I'm more than just a little sure that I'll see way more zealots and warlocks than I'll ever see avengers or stalkers during this playtest....

err yeah if you compare one base ability versus another plus 5 talents. not saying the spellcasting isn't more useful in general but an apples to apples comparison is probably better for making judgments on its design.

Hmm, a Tengu Stalker Vigilante.

Let's get dangerous.

Hmm, a Tengu Stalker Vigilante.

Let's get dangerous.

That gave me the mental Image of Darkwing Duck.

A kitsune vigilante is sounding rather hilarious. I can be human or kitusne in my social identity, human or kitsune in my vigilante identity, and eventually, human or kitsune in my mundane identity. Then, I could take Realistic Likeness and be in social, vigilante, or mundane identity in YOUR identity.

Bring it.

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm, a Tengu Stalker Vigilante.

Let's get dangerous.

That gave me the mental Image of Darkwing Duck.

Exactly as intended...

A kitsune vigilante is sounding rather hilarious. I can be human or kitusne in my social identity, human or kitsune in my vigilante identity, and eventually, human or kitsune in my mundane identity. Then, I could take Realistic Likeness and be in social, vigilante, or mundane identity in YOUR identity.

Bring it.

I dub thee....Moon Knight.

Yeah, at lvl 12 they'll need to use 4 of their 6 talents to keep their spellcasting maxed. That leaves a lot of flavorful abilities behind. I suspect that Warlock characters are going to end up feeling very feat starved after taking extra talent feats.

I feel confident that the options will be very limited for the playtest, but there will be many more when the full book comes out. When haven't they done that with a playtest?

Actually, it's only 3 of 6 at level 12, which isn't that bad. You get Arcane Training I without spending any talents. You're picking up your flavor talents at 2, 6, and 12. Not too bad a deal.

I think an entire party of Vigilantes (perhaps in Hell's Rebels?) would be a very enjoyable group.

I think an entire party of Vigilantes (perhaps in Hell's Rebels?) would be a very enjoyable group.

Vigilante/Kineticist gestalt is how you make a magical girl party.

A few people have said that the Warlock is MAD. Unless I missed something, I don't think it is? Int is used for spells and bombs, but nothing else requires a DC or actually scales with charisma (beyond skill checks, and there's a trait for any of those that you really need).

No mutagenic vigilantes that sprout adamantine claws or turn into big green monsters?

No artificer vigilantes that craft custom suits of magic armor?

No supernatural flight talent?

Robert Brookes wrote:

The leaner, meaner cousin of the factotum rises from the shadows!

I think my first question is: how married is everyone to the name vigilante? Something like 'enigma' might have less self-appointed law enforcer baggage.

As the designer of the Factotum, I was wondering when someone would notice the similarities. As for the name, I think we are pretty much locked in on that front. In general, by the time we announce a name, we are well past the point of changing it. Too much is already in motion.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

As the factotum is one of my favorite classes, hearing this has definitely perked my interest in the Vigilante. I haven't read the playtest yet (I mainly just run 3.5 with a tiny amount of pathfinder content tacked on, so I'm pretty slow to read through new pathfinder content), but I'll have check it out.

A kitsune vigilante is sounding rather hilarious. I can be human or kitusne in my social identity, human or kitsune in my vigilante identity, and eventually, human or kitsune in my mundane identity. Then, I could take Realistic Likeness and be in social, vigilante, or mundane identity in YOUR identity.

Bring it.

Be a warlock on top of it, taking Social Simulacrum. You can now be both at the same time!

Personally, I kind of like that you have to spend talents to get more spellcasting. Lets you choose to play a dabbler who knows a bit but focuses on other things without the oddities of multiclassing. Mind, it's probably still worth blowing half your vigilante talents on spellcasting, but there's some interesting options...and I hope the finished version will have more. Warlock's definitely my favorite, though, some really neat, mystical abilities there even beyond the spellcasting. Hope there's a lot more vigilante talents in the final product, though...

I really like this. It's looking pretty solid so far. Good work!

I have some questions about some things:

The "Warlock Spells Known" subtitle on that table on page 9 threw me for a bit of a loop for a few seconds.

The use of spellcasting progression talents to modulate spellcasting seems... a little wonky? But the modular approach should work well with a more experienced player. I kind of like it.

I also like the appearance of Track as an vigilante talent (for the Zealot, where it seems to come from the Ranger class?). I do wonder whether it would also make sense to add it to the Stalker vigilante. It seems like they would want to be good at stalking things!

The Pull Into the Shadows talent's text strikes me as inconsistent.

I think an entire party of Vigilantes (perhaps in Hell's Rebels?) would be a very enjoyable group.

that is an awesome idea

Allowing someone to make a Vital Strike as an attack of opportunity is a really fascinating way to try to make Vital Strike a viable feat.

The combination of a bunch of the talents, particularly Mad Dash and the Combat Skill talent may make the Avenger Vigilante a preferred melee class... compared to a Fighter, you lose out on some feats, heavy armor proficiency, and the various Trainings, but for a new Pounce option that also gains a bunch of bonus feats and has full BAB it might be worth it. You can also get Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with one "feat," although specialization won't come until 8th level. But still--it's a pounce-like ability!

I also love the idea of a 6-level prepared arcane caster with the full breadth and depth of the Sorcerer/Wizard list available, so long as you have it in your spellbook. I have no idea how it's going to play, but the idea is awesome.

Anyone got any recommendations for a mid-to-high-level module (or scenario, I guess!) that could work for a party of all vigilantes?

The one thing I'm not sure of is how best to integrate the dual personas into a campaign of "normal" adventurers.

What does MAD stand for?

What does MAD stand for?

MAD

Color me intrigued.

What does MAD stand for?

Multiple Attribute Dependence. Basically, classes that are forced to invest into multiple attributes to be operational.

SAD is single attribute dependence. Wizards are an example of a SAD class, as they only require one ability score to be high to play their role. Other ability scores being high, such as dexterity or constitution are just icing on the cake.

MAD classes such as monk require dexterity and wisdom for armor class, constitution to survive the front line, and strength or heavy feat investment to be accurate and be capable of hurting things.

That said, my only feedback for this class is that if charisma is to be their main mental ability score, then any spellcasting they get should also be based off charisma. Warlock should be charisma based.

Ah..thanks, Adam. And I agree with you on the Warlock.

Small question, how do Assault Training and Hidden Strike work with the Evangelist PrC? For Arcane Training and Divine Training it's easy to see how it works with the PrC since you need the higher talent to gain new levels in spells, however Assault Training and Hidden Strike reference to the character's Vigilante level, since a Vigilant/Evangelist with aligned class is listed as essentially adding every evangelist level beyond first to her aligned class to determine what class features she has does this mean that an Avenger/Evangelist has BAB equal to their level for all levels other then the first evangelist level, and does the Stalker get their Hidden Strike dice for their evangelist levels?

What are the retraining synergies for vigilante? I'm considering retraining a level 2 with 5 xp for a head start in PFS.

GeneticDrift wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I approve of the Warlock Vigilante's ability to hide spellcasting. I really like the design of the class so far :D

I dislike the hidden spell casting. A spell cast with no components is not hidden so this doesn't do much. If it is intended that magic can be hidden by hiding the components (V/S/M) and any caster can do it then, I will just go into the corner and grumble about it.

It would be awesome to be able to secretly buff the party. PC drinks some water, secretly cast fly. PC opens door, secretly cast close. PC mentions your preferred deity in a positive way, secretly cast guidance or other cantrip.

A spell cast with no components isn't hidden, that's correct, but this ability specifically allows you to hide spells (which so far I think mainly only the bard can do with that one feat).

The dawnflower dissident from Paths of Prestige has the Secret Caster ability to hide their spells as well, if anyone was looking for alternate options.

The Gold Baron shall rise...

I AM THE SUBAQUATIC DARKNESS!
I AM THE ABYSSOPELAGIC LAYER!
I EXERT THE PRESSURE OF JUSTICE ON THE METAZOIC CREATURES WHO LURK IN THE DEEP!
I AM THE HERO THE OCEAN DESERVES!

I AM YOUR SEMIAMPHIBIOUS KNIGHT!

MY PARENTS DIED AT SEA!

I have a hard time accepting the dual alignment rule. It makes the character seem like he or she has Multiple Personality Disorder rather than a drive to right wrongs or exact vengeance or the like.

You're not just going to pop open the book and go, "Oh! I want that bundle of paperwork!".

The player who wants that should hold out for the Underwriter class from Ultimate Bureaucracy.

I can't say I'm too thrilled about the Everyman ability. At 19th level that just seems really unnecessary. The Many Guises and a good Disguise check can do something remotely the same.

As an aside, I've never quite understood the taboo of allowing characters to disguise themselves as specific individuals (magically or through mundane means). It seems like every version of D&D had this as does Pathfinder. Is it really that game breaking to be able to make yourself appear to be someone else?

Does the zealot have to worship a deity?

Thinking more about how this class interacts with others, how on earth is the secret identity going to survive a party? Just keep scrying on the other, more susceptible members until you see someone who isn't the secret identity. I mean, I guess there's no real mandate that the social identity is secret, but that is where the dual identities thing is supposed to go, particularly with the scrying provisions.

Thinking more about how this class interacts with others, how on earth is the secret identity going to survive a party? Just keep scrying on the other, more susceptible members until you see someone who isn't the secret identity. I mean, I guess there's no real mandate that the social identity is secret, but that is where the dual identities thing is supposed to go, particularly with the scrying provisions.

Yeah, this has occurred to me, as well.

I suppose it's possible that the party only knows about your vigilante persona, while not being familiar with your social persona, but then that means they are less involved when your social persona is doing something.

Does the zealot have to worship a deity?

I wondered the same thing. The wording under the Domain Talent implies that he must, but that really should be stated outright.

If I understand how this works, a 20th level Warlock who has all six Arcane Training Talents would be able to cast the following number of spells per day:

6 cantrips
4 1st level
3 2nd level
3 3rd level
3 4th level
2 5th level
1 6th level

That seems a bit underwhelming when compared to, say, a Bard or Magus. I also don't see any combat mechanic similar in value to Performance or Spell Conbat/Spellstrike. Am I missing something?

Thinking more about how this class interacts with others, how on earth is the secret identity going to survive a party? Just keep scrying on the other, more susceptible members until you see someone who isn't the secret identity. I mean, I guess there's no real mandate that the social identity is secret, but that is where the dual identities thing is supposed to go, particularly with the scrying provisions.

Actually, I think it might come up long before then. I mean, how is the secret identity going to survive ...shopping?

We've pretty much accepted that Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is a standard fixture of the game. What's everyone going to think when the mild-mannered social persona shows up to buy wands and potions and that really sweet +2 Agile Rapier? Especially in the smallish adventuring towns, people are gonna talk. That's how rumours get started!

Terminalmancer wrote:

Thinking more about how this class interacts with others, how on earth is the secret identity going to survive a party? Just keep scrying on the other, more susceptible members until you see someone who isn't the secret identity. I mean, I guess there's no real mandate that the social identity is secret, but that is where the dual identities thing is supposed to go, particularly with the scrying provisions.

Actually, I think it might come up long before then. I mean, how is the secret identity going to survive ...shopping?

We've pretty much accepted that Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is a standard fixture of the game. What's everyone going to think when the mild-mannered social persona shows up to buy wands and potions and that really sweet +2 Agile Rapier? Especially in the smallish adventuring towns, people are gonna talk. That's how rumours get started!

This is why Alfred crafts.

Eryx_UK wrote:

We don't need even more base classes!

Bah! Speak for yourself! This is exactly what I had wanted for a rogue! Or heck, ANY of my potential Curse of the Crimson Throne characters.

If I understand how this works, a 20th level Warlock who has all six Arcane Training Talents would be able to cast the following number of spells per day:

6 cantrips
4 1st level
3 2nd level
3 3rd level
3 4th level
2 5th level
1 6th level

That seems a bit underwhelming when compared to, say, a Bard or Magus. I also don't see any combat mechanic similar in value to Performance or Spell Conbat/Spellstrike. Am I missing something?

Well, it's Arcanist casting (ie: the best each of prepared and Spontaneous). So there's that.

And you still get 5 Talents and way more skills and skill advantages than a Magus...but yeah, some combat bonus would be nice on all the Vigilante Specializations as well.

Thinking more about how this class interacts with others, how on earth is the secret identity going to survive a party? Just keep scrying on the other, more susceptible members until you see someone who isn't the secret identity. I mean, I guess there's no real mandate that the social identity is secret, but that is where the dual identities thing is supposed to go, particularly with the scrying provisions.

Well, that probably depends how you split up your identities. Honestly, with a typical adventurer party, I imagine the vigilante being in vigilante mode the vast majority of the time, only returning to civilian mode when the PCs head into town...when the PCs are likely to be around a number of other NPCs anyways.

Of course, maybe I underestimate just how much scrying is going on...

Actually, I think it might come up long before then. I mean, how is the secret identity going to survive ...shopping?

We've pretty much accepted that Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is a standard fixture of the game. What's everyone going to think when the mild-mannered social persona shows up to buy wands and potions and that really sweet +2 Agile Rapier? Especially in the smallish adventuring towns, people are gonna talk. That's how rumours get started!

Well, you could do it in vigilante mode, or you could disguise yourself as someone totally unrelated, if you're a warlock or a zealot you could craft your own gear, or if the other PCs are in on the secret you could ask them to buy it for you (or craft it for you if someone else in the party crafts). Or, of course, you could practice your Bluff checks. Or your civilian identity could be an eccentric trader known for catering to adventurers. I'm sure there's plenty of other possibilities someone could envision...

Does the zealot have to worship a deity?

Dude!!! Don't ruin it for the rest of us.

I have a hard time accepting the dual alignment rule. It makes the character seem like he or she has Multiple Personality Disorder rather than a drive to right wrongs or exact vengeance or the like.

It's not a disorder, it's a cover. Think about how docile and uninterested Clark Kent is compared to the pinnacle of Lawful Good behavior that is Superman. Clark Kent's behavior is such a darn good cover that Detect Good doesn't ping on him, and what Antipaladin hunting Superman is going to suspect a guy that doesn't ping as good?

Terminalmancer wrote:

Thinking more about how this class interacts with others, how on earth is the secret identity going to survive a party? Just keep scrying on the other, more susceptible members until you see someone who isn't the secret identity. I mean, I guess there's no real mandate that the social identity is secret, but that is where the dual identities thing is supposed to go, particularly with the scrying provisions.

Actually, I think it might come up long before then. I mean, how is the secret identity going to survive ...shopping?

We've pretty much accepted that Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is a standard fixture of the game. What's everyone going to think when the mild-mannered social persona shows up to buy wands and potions and that really sweet +2 Agile Rapier? Especially in the smallish adventuring towns, people are gonna talk. That's how rumours get started!

That Loyal Aid ability could be tweaked a bit.

Maybe use a middle-man? That guy who knows a guy?

Chris Ballard wrote:

Does the zealot have to worship a deity?

Dude!!! Don't ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm going in with Sarenrae as being my deity. Blunt arrows, and a beat stick (tonfa). Now because of strength issues, now I have to make things lighter......