Star Wars Saga Dawn of Defiance

Game Master JASON RODARTE

Any of these would require a way to dock it onto the Banshee correct?

Well, we almost have enough people for a half squadron of snubs.

Honestly, I think we need a ship that can carry snubs inside.
Give me a day or so, and I think I might be able to chase down the ship that I am thinking of.

Tramp freighter with some fighters. Yay, go team. :)

Well, turning a freighter into a pocket light carrier is possible, but hugely expensive. For instance, the Rin Assid Bulk Hauler has Colossal (Frigate) size, so it can carry smaller ships; it has a huge amount of storage that can be converted to emplacement points, allowing one to customize it into a light carrier Q-ship—enough so that they wrote an advice column saying that you shouldn't do that.

Even so, ships of that size run in the hundreds of thousands of credits. Ardan just can't afford that sort of thing. Wealth gives him 5kcr x level each time he levels up, so getting, say, 400kcr would take... all of the money he gets from now until level 14. There is no "filthy rich" Talent to increase the amount he gains from Wealth.

So, it's really up to "what do we get issued" or "what can we steal/scavenge" if we want to get into a ship that size. Plus, a ship like the Rin Assid has a minimum Crew size of 15, so we would need a bunch of NPCs just to help fly the thing.

Basically, "by the book," if we want to play a squadron of fighter pilots in a light carrier, the GM needs to arrange the narrative so that we become part of a nascent Rebel task group that uses such a ship. As is, the Baudo-class star yacht can't really support it, and making our own larger ship into a pocket carrier is prohibitively expensive. This doesn't mean "impossible," it just means the GM would need buy-in to decide that this is a good direction for the game (assuming everyone even wants to do a bunch of starfighter piloting).

If we just want a pair of fighter craft as escorts for our current ship, that is slightly more doable, but still expensive. Once again, probably a "beg/borrow/steal" kind of situation, especially to get hyperdrive-capable ships. (We can always mod a captured or used starfighter to have a hyperdrive if we must.)

One plus to just getting a pair of fighter craft is that it makes sense narratively: A space yacht showing up on the Rim with a pair of fighter escorts can very easily pass off as "Rich folks on a pleasure cruise to see the grotty and dangerou Outer Rim territories, with a pair of security escorts for safety." It would be like a wealthy tourist on safari with a pair of trained guides. It wouldn't go unnoticed (a rich tourist will attract some attention) but it isn't noteworthy in the way that showing up with a military light carrier group is. :)

Quen Pah the basic Docking Clamps are built into the cost of all Starships and have no special game effect other than to allow passengers to move from a smaller ship to a larger ship. However, the basic Docking Clamps are not strong enough to do much more than hold the ship in place during routine docking.

There is a modification for the Docking Clamps for larger vessels that can be used as a makeshift Starfighter launch. The basic Size Restriction is Colossal(Frigate) or Larger but then most Starfighters are of Gargantuan size, thus 2 steps smaller. So perhaps the much smaller Starfighters of only Huge size (the size of a Truck) might only require a Colossal (2 steps smaller) or Larger ship but that would ultimately be your call because the GaW does not directly address this rather obvious oversight.

Well, there are freighters such as the J-1 which holds 1 inside, and the Wayfarer which holds 2 inside.

The one that I was thinking of was in fact a frigate with a crew of 122, and 12 starfighters, which was bigger than I was thinking.

As for the conversion space, it would ultimately be up to the GM as to whether he would allow it or not. :)

EDIT:

Still a moot point, as all we have right now is just the Banshee. Things like carriers will have to wait. :)

It is only semi-moot as we are upgrading the Banshee and could potentially pick up one of those Star Fighters I outlined that are of only Huge size and not overly expensive and even if not we could upgrade the Docking Clamps to allow for a better Huge Starfighter once we can acquire one by either buying it or finding a busted one and fixing it.

Still it is quite interesting that the J-1 Shuttle which is just Colossal in Size (just like the Banshee) can carry not only a Starfighter but a Gargantuan Sized Starfighter. So if it can do it why can the Banshee not do it? Again this seems to go back to some kind of oversight by the original game developers. Now I am not suggesting we allow the Banshee to carry a Gargantuan Starfighter but I definitely think it should be able to carry a Huge Starfighter and that the J-1 Shuttle being able to carry a Gargantuan Starfighter is a strange anomaly in the Guidelines inadvertently created by mistake by the game designers.

Still the the discussion should be brought up.

Do we want to work like the crew of the Phantom?

Or do we want to work like the crew of Phoenix squadron ?

Myself, I think we should be looking at a mix.
We should remain a team for missions on the ground, but we should also be able to snag snubs along with the banshee if and when it calls for it.

I also think that we do need a couple of snubs available for things like this situation that we find ourselves in where we could use the extra firepower.

Well that I can concur with Dreamchaser but getting more than one additional Snub would require that the Banshee could hold at least one and we have not even established if that will be allowed by the GM.

Still I can see it holding 2 one port-top and one starboard-top but that would require an addtional set of Enhanced Docking clamps.

Oh there is a minor issue with the Docking Clamps and that is that if the Banshee takes damage -- like getting hit by an asteroid -- that would disconnect the Docking Clamps

However, maybe the GM will allow us to put in place a mini-real-close-ranged-tractorbeam that unless deactivated prevents the docked ship from disengaging. Basically removes the stress from the Docking Clamps should the Banshee take damage but that is all it does.

Similar to what the A wings did with the Ghost. :)
In flight, they attached to the sides to give the pilots breaks.
They all detached, when the ship was landing though, so snubs landed under their own power.

However, Until we find any, I think that we are kind of hands tied and the discussion is just a what if.

Do the rules allow for this? Some of these things were done POST this rule set

Basically, by the Saga edition rules, if you want to carry fighters, you either need:
* A ship that has a listed number of carried craft, or
* A docking clamp mod on a Colossal (Frigate) or larger ship

While you can dock a fighter to a smaller ship, that's literally just a small docking tube/assembly and it won't stand up to combat or going to hyperspeed.

The Banshee is just not set up to be a pocket carrier with even one attached fighter. If we want to "launch Vipers" then we need a bigger ship, which means a bigger crew and more costs.

Okay Ardan while the guidelines do state that one must have a Colossal (Frigate) or larger ship to use Docking Clamps to attach a Starfighter if you look closely most Starfighters are of Gargantuan size. Further, as I stated I think this was an oversight (aka an error) on the part of the game designers and that it is simply meant to be a 2 size shift.

Next I will point out some of the ships that are denoted as having a carried craft (which they do not state where it is being carried nor how mind you) are the same size as the Banshee and they are carrying a Gargantuan Starfighter. So the guidelines are seemingly outright contradicting themselves and all I am attempting to do is thread a balanced solution through the eye of this contradictatorial needle.

Further, where in the guidelines does it state you MUST have a Colossal ship that was designed by the game designers to carry another ship? As far as I can see, they simply provide examples of such ships doing so, which means one can make modifications (and some of their modifications are rather extreme when you look at some of the unique ships that are based on a standard design) to a standard design to fit what one desires.

Now sure Banshee, the luxury craft she is, is not currently designed to be more militaristic that does not mean it cannot be. Nor that it cannot be and still maintain its air of luxury. It would just not be easy nor inexpensive, I am sure.

However, I see step one as being -- make the mods. Then step two and over time -- adjust those mods to be more her more sleak and luxurious looking once more.

As for Docking Clamps I want to point out that it explicitly states that if a ship takes damage while another ship is docked using docking clamps that the ship(s) is immediately (for a lack of a better word) jettisonned. Which is part of the reason, I suggested this route as this seemed more balance game mechanics wise, as it would require more ingenuity and thus expense to compensate for this in some way (to which I proposed a potential solution for).

Lastly we do not need to even use Docking Clamps, that just seemed like the most appropriate solution and one that had a balance of requiring addtional methods to secure a ship to the outer hull.

However as stated other ships of the same size as the Banshee can carry a Gargantuan Starfighter (without issue -- aka no mention of Docking Clamps thus no chance of being jettisoned accidentally) -- further they do not say where or how this is beign done. Perhaps they are located within some kind of special semi-internal dock (or completely internal dock) rather than using a fully external docking clamp.

So per the guidelines there is no reason that the Banshee cannot carry a Gargantuan Starfighter or two for that matter but I was not even suggesting that -- I was suggesting only a Huge Starfighter and Dreamchaster suggested two of them, along with the stipulation that the Banshee could not land with the Starfighters attached which seems like a reasonable balance in mechanics as well.

Still ultimately in the end it is the GMs decision to allow or disallow anything not explicitly (or even explicitly) covered under the guidelines as written. In the end, the GM is simply supposed to look at what is being proposed and decide whether it seems balanced or not and whether it will help make the game more enjoyable for everyone (GM included) and as stated my suggestions were meant to help maintain game balance as well as aesthetical in-game engineering.

The designers also specifically wrote in an advice column that the published existing ships don't fit the ship construction rules. The fact that some ship exists that can carry a fighter but isn't Colossal (Frigate) or larger isn't supposed to imply that anyone can make a ship that does that.

Ultimately it depends on what the GM decides we get to do. As written, the Banshee isn't a carrier. I already suggested previously that you could just get a hyperspace-capable snub fighter and fly that, but you rejected that notion. I don't know why you're hung up on having a fighter that is clamped to or carried in our main ship, but using the stuff in the Saga system that's really something you do either with a specialty-ship approved by the GM, or by playing a style of game where you are part of a carrier group and doing something like Rogue Squadron.

Anyway, argue for whatever you want. The GM asked for the rules in the book, and that's what I gave. It's up to the GM to decide whether to cleave to them or to customize something for our group.

Note I actually did initially think about the concept of a hyperspace-capable starfighter (I even completely created one and presented it to the GM but then I had to crash it). So I did not simply just reject the notion as you state but then again you did not ask why I declined that option either.

So to explain since it has become relevant and you are not seeing it for yourself here it be: As I continued to looked at game-play and in-game logistics I realized that having such an external starfighter was not practical. First it would detracted from the game-play (not allowing anyone in the solo-ship to interact with the others on the primary ship during hyperspace travel). Second the logistics of maintaining the supplies for that other ship which does not have the supply range of the Banshee would greatly restrict the range that the group could go between resupply stops. So it just seemed for the game to be a non-viable concept, however, if you truly want to split up the party and make it less interactive, that can be done but me I was trying to think of things that would still allow for interactive game play as well as potential in-game issues, like scrambling to get into one of these starfighters and launch before the Banshee takes too much damage to render her less effective or any other interesting twists or complications that the GM might want to throw our way based on the situation we created.

As to your quote about the advice column you stopped a bit short as it also stated:

"Now, if you as the GM want to build Starships beyond what the Stock Starships can manage, there's really not a reason for you to hamstring yourself with those rules: just write up stats that seem like a good challenge for your players, using similar Starships as benchmarks for things like price, appropriate game statistics for that type of ship, and so forth.

And if you and your players really want more comprehensive rules that go beyond those in the book, by all means do so! You might look at Gear Templates to get some inspiration for coming up with appropriate special benefits and restrictions for different manufacturers."

So yes while we cannot duplicate some of the ships that are already created (and I never stated that we should do that), there is no reason that we cannot make modifications that are not directly specifically outlined within the guidelines. For those guidelines even specifically state to feel free to do just that and perhaps use these other guidelines to help you with what you are attempting to do.

Also in my last post I did state that it is up to the GM to make the final decision and while you did provide some of the guidelines as written, as I have noted, you did not provide them in their entirety.

Oh and btw I am not arguing just stating the facts more thoroughly.

A friendly question to you, why are you so opposed to the concept of having a starfighter clamped on to or carried within the main ship as you seem to be? Is it a question of aesthetics or is it something else you are objecting to. I mean it seems fairly obvious (at least to me) that you really do not like this idea at all. Which I can respect, especially if I understand the why of it. Now I have explained why I am so "hung up on" it so will explain why you are so against it?

Lastly the game is ultimately about having fun for everyone, and I am not the only one that thought having a starfighter would augment things, Dreamchaser proposed having two starfighters would be even better -- and I presume in their eyes more fun. Still I do not want to disrespect your concept of fun either, we just need to know what and why so that we can all make a better compromise so that everyone has fun, GM included.

That's where I'm trying to get to, how do we get the game to give everyone what they will find enjoyable and challenging, but I'm just reciting the data in the books when the GM asks for it. Ultimately it's up to the GM to decide how to use it and what we keep and what we decide for ourselves.

If you want to find some kind of guideline for gutting part of the back of the Banshee and turning it into a fighter port the way that the J-1 carries a twintail, I'd suggest using the cargo pod rules as a start. On the Banshee, a medium cargo pod would take one emplacement point and carry 25 tons of cargo. One might argue that you could use this to represent a (tight) fighter docking slip in the rear of the ship—a ramp that opens and launches a snub fighter of Huge or Gargantuan size. I'd personally charge more for the modification because it's not just a big cargo box, it's an actual fighter docking area with maintenance and computer facilities, but again, this is just suggesting a starting point.

(Basically this is a scaled-down version of the hangar bay rules, which normally requires a Colossal (Frigate) or larger ship with 8 emplacement points to spare.)

Awesome great to hear we are aiming at the same goal and wonderful suggestions btw. However all I would suggest when quoting the guidelines as written that everyone keeps in mind that the game designers did not mean for them to be hard fast rigid rules but merely guidelines to help the game remain balanced. Which again is all I am striving for maintaining balance and within our restricted parameters think of ways that we might achieve what we would like and stay within those restrictions.

Now I concur with the thought that a Colossal(Frigate) two steps bigger than a Gargantuan starfighter is what is required for a starfighter of that size without super special modifications like the Colossal J1 obviously has had. Thus for any other more normal Colossal sized ship, one must use a two step smaller starfighter (aka Huge size) to enact something similar. Thus game balance, and we can get the one (or perhaps two) Starfighter(s) but with the restriction that it has to be fairly cheap.

Now I will look at the Cargo Pod and Hangar Bay guidelines a bit later on but I also concur that it would probably cost more than just a Cargo Pod by itself because, yes, it should contain docking, maintanence, and computer facilities. Still most of that can covered by one of those full mechanics shops to represent all the extra necessary specialized equipment. Which is to say while the full mechanics shop covers lots of things what we would be getting is a more specialized version that incorporates the docking and computer facilities. Your thoughts on that idea?

Lastly if we the players can hammer out a balanced concept, that does not color too far outside the guidelines and present it as a cohesive and game-balanced idea, I think our GM would be receptive of such a plan as that means they did not have to do the work. They just need to read everything we have been saying and will be saying as we hash things out and decide if it sounds viably balanced and fits within what they are wanting to run and perhaps apply any tweaks they feel might be needed or would increase the fun.

Note the starfighter I had designed was meant to be problematic, aka while it functioned it required a lot of on going work to keep it flying. It was meant to be a flying bucket of pain in the butt bolts. Aka a ship with personality so-to-speak. Kind of like some of the issues that Han had with the Millennium Falcon. Basically creating extra challenges to have to over come from time to time when the GM decides we need something interesting to complicate our already complicated lives ;-)

Normally I would just say "screw it, just make a custom corvette that has a hangar bay," but that would cost millions of credits and require a crew of 50, so that's kind of a non-starter.

Thing I saw, was considered a light cruiser. But was frigate sized.

Carried a squadron of snubs, and had a crew of 122.

So yes a non starter. :)

Also a handful of weapons making it a good picket ship.

But like I have stated, We would need to discuss exactly where we see the campaign going.

I like the idea, of taking a small transport, and sneaking a pair of snubs into a cargo bay.

Take a look at the wayfarer transport, as that has room for 2 Snubs inside the cargo bay.

Actually just using the Guidelines as they are the Banshee has plenty of room for a pair of Snubs inside her cargo bay I believe and I think it makes for an even better sneak since who would expect a dilletante to make their expensive pretty yacht more military-like.

Also yes I concur the covertte and the frigate are way to big for what I envision us doing and would change the entire paradigm of what our adventures would be like. I mean I too like the idea of taking a small (just Colossal sized) transport and sneaking a pair of Huge sized snubs inside her cargo bay. It gives us a bit more oomph without going over the top so-to-speak.

I will also look at the Wayfarer Transport, but I really feel the Banshee would be the best ship for us role-playing-wise, especially with the few enhancements we are considering. ;-) Now granted, we might have to take out that full sized swimming pool and replace it with a much smaller jacuzzi but yeah I think we can get things to fight within, a bight tight perhaps but room but hey, sacrificing some comfort over safety and staying alive is a good thing.

That is kind of what I was thinking. Next a speeder or a couple of swoops for the party.

None the less, it is all dependent on the GM.

Plus, I can root for those being long term plans, and not rushing into it.

Well adjusting the Banshee to have a pair of snub docks should perhaps be double (assuming its affordable) in our down time and I think we kind of need a least one snub if we are going to take on that bad guy ship and rescue that jedi guy.

BTW snub is that a slang term or an acronym?

Slang term. Actually used in the original movie! "Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are snub-fighters going to be against that?"

Either that, or it is going to be boarders away. :)

Wait, still going to be away boarders, due to us needing to affect a rescue.

Hey that would be waay easier if we had teleporters ;-) I think we need to take a trip to alpha quadrant in a completely different galaxy and get that technology and bring it back. What say you all? :-D

All we would need is a convenient worm-hole that we could survive traveling there and back and that would stop existing after we did so. That sounds fairly easy for the GM to whip up. Right GM ;-)

Grab a ride on a purgol.

Nope, Delta Quadrant with Janeway/ Better than Sisko and Picard!

Ah great, Delta Quardrant will do, I sure we can get that equipment there.

However to make it clear all I want to do is get the teleportation technology not bump into a commander of a starship or starbase as that would most likely be rather detrimental to the endeavor ;-)

Oh, one other fun factoid about all of the back-and-forth on turning a ship into a light carrier escort: The Wayfarer-class, which was called out for sometimes carrying two fighters in its cargo pod, is considered a "medium freighter" but there are no rules for making such a ship. The ship creation rules only have light and heavy carriers. So they made no design middle ground for making your own medium freighters. :)

Yes they did ;-) they stated that if you wanted to make your own ship template that to go ahead and do so. Further they stated that the GM could caveat any ship design that is presented. Being that I am a fairly good game designer -- I would be more than happy to build a medium carrier ship template based on the guidelines presented for such. I think all of my thoughts and suggestions have been inline with the core guidelines thus far after having them corrected of course by Ardan. To which I think Ardan and I make great pair in implementing any adjustments to the guidelines. I play in the outfield and he plays catcher and between the two of us the results end up in the infield.

Of course it would fantastic to actually hear the GM weigh in on any of this as so far its just all pie in the sky regardless if its outfield or infield.

"Make it up yourself" is not what I would consinder their design team actually making design rules, but in that vein, while there is no "medium freighter" entry on starship construction, it is possible to built-your-own fighter craft. A custom interceptor could make a somewhat affordable small (Huge-sized) fighter, if someone wants to get the Starship Designer feat at some point.

Oh I could do that did not know that feat existed. Nice to know and put on my list of to do's

"Make it up yourself" is however literally what they said to do. Granted they also suggested basing it off some other ship already designed but frankly that base comment is not even debatable.

As for building a huge starfighter from scratch, I do not think anyone has suggested that. All we are suggesting is getting one of the various affordable starfighters and modifying it for our use. Like putting a tie fighter cockpit into a droid starfighter for instance as that would be extremely cheap. Granted not the best huge starfighter but at least a start.

Still I keep anxiously waiting for the GM to chime in and give us some solid direction and some such. As until that happens its all pie in the sky with no place to land.

Next time I publish a book I'll remember "Just make it up yourself" counts as game design and I'll get paid for the full contract! :D

Anyway I brought up the possibility of constructing a custom fighter because that way it's easier to make exactly what you want, with hyperdrive, lasers or missiles, shields, etc., and for smaller ships like interceptors it's affordable.

I don't have Mechanics or Pilot but I'll post where I think Phineas can assist.

As you pointed out Ardan -- or at least I thought you did -- that to do what you are saying requires the Starship Designer feat which no one currently has. So why make that suggestion at all?

Also your rather dismally negative sarcastic comment is so sad it is almost not worthy of even commenting on but just to be respectful to the game designers -- I will point out that every quality game designer fully well knows that no matter what they come up with for guidelines (aka not rules just guidelines) they can never cover every situation that the players are going to come up with and they understand that a GM is at some point in time going to have to play it from the hip using the guidelines as just that guidelines and doing the best that they can do while basically making it up as they go -- either that or the dm (demotion and lower case on purpose) holds to the guidelines like there are some kind of hard fast brick wall rules and the game fun comes crashing down like a wingless plane.

Further, you seem like you are doing much more than just quoting the guidelines as you are constantly seemingly trying to shoot down any idea that does not conform to some unknown agenda that you are trying to pursue. An agenda I cannot fathom because you see-saw back and forth -- against -- for -- against. Have the balls to pick a side and stick to it. What is it that you are ultimately striving for here? I mean if we cannot agree on a single approach to this then what is the use of even pursuing it to begin with? I and Dreamchaser have tossed a few ideas out there and you have even tossed a few quality ideas out when you are in the functional for mode -- that you then basically seem to shoot down when you shift back to the against mode.

Now currently the only proposition that (has been voiced thus far) we have that still adheres to the guidelines as written is to simply modify some low cost huge starfighter as that we have the skill base and resources for unless you have been holding out on us all along and your character actually happens to have the Starship Designer feat.

With that I retire, its all yours Ardan you figure it out going forward as I am done trying to seemingly compete with you over figuring out a solid solution that does not bend the guidelines to the point of breaking them.

Let's not let the game devolve.

Who is still around?

Still here.

Still here but just roleplaying going forward --- the out-of-game problem is Ardan's to solve

It makes sense that you would need to use mechanics or engineering to install and Computer Use to make sure everything is connected/

In that case, I can have Phineas make those checks when he gets back, after his attempted fact finding mission.

---

Here!

Kol does have a better Use Computer than Phineas he's +11 versus my +8.

Last we heard, more than a few weeks ago, is that Kol was on vacation. Not much since then. Have not heard from our Mandalorian other.

Do we consider them dropped?

Last we heard, more than a few weeks ago, is that Kol was on vacation. Not much since then. Have not heard from our Mandalorian other.

Do we consider them dropped?

I don't think so yet, post Labor Day it takes time to ramp back up again (generally speaking in the US), our Mando is pretty quiet even prior to the Holidays! [I am assuming both are American which may be incorrect].

I'll take a look and see if they've been posting on other parts of the boards.

Ty

The player posted in another game on Sep. 4. I'll send a private message, maybe their board notifications are wonky (I've had that happen before, so the board stops showing new posts).

I am still here. Just wasn't online during the weekend.

Was enjoying Starfield.

Will make a mental note to check the games at least once during my days off.

The player posted in another game on Sep. 4. I'll send a private message, maybe their board notifications are wonky (I've had that happen before, so the board stops showing new posts).

ty. What about Kol?

If we have people drop, I am not interested in recruiting again.