No I am not talking Dark Side Adepts as they have chosen of their own free will, outside coercion, (and not counting that the Dark Side does seem to be a temptor) to embrace the Dark Side.
And no I am not trying to skirt any issues, I am talking about a more canon-like galaxy Star Wars situation.
Basically some non-Jedi Force Users gets captured by the Sith, and is "forced" (as they do) to use the Dark Side. Aka if you do not use the Dark Side they kill you. So the individual does no more than they absolutely have to do to stay alive. However, the Sith being who they are, would probably IMO submerge them into the deep end of the pool numerous times for full saturation effect.
Then they finally get rescued from the Sith, in a way that truly means they are finally free, and now they want to purge themselves of the Dark Side. Could they do it, could they return from the Dark Side and completely embrace the Light Side?
Yes, I realize that this would be a highly unusual scenario and probably might never happen in fiction nor in a game. But again hypothetically, would such a thing be possible. Is there any canon material anywhere that outlines this being impossible or any where something like this was even tried?
Oh and personally, I am not interested in using the Dark Side as playing evil characters is not my cup of tea and it has been clearly outlined that this GM plays by the concept that its Black or its White there is no Gray since they are using the guidelines as written and those guidelines do not incorporate the "Gray" concept at all.
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I don’t think there’s any such thing as being forced to use the Dark Side, ultimately. Even if you did so to save your skin, you still chose to do it. You still valued self-preservation above doing the Right Thing, no matter the consequences. Keep on that “I had to do it to survive” track long, and pretty soon you won’t *want* to go back.
I don’t think there’s any such thing as being forced to use the Dark Side, ultimately. Even if you did so to save your skin, you still chose to do it. You still valued self-preservation above doing the Right Thing, no matter the consequences. Keep on that “I had to do it to survive” track long, and pretty soon you won’t *want* to go back.
Yep. You can always find a justification. You describe your moral convictions in how you behave when there is a cost, and what line you are unwilling to cross.
Interesting -- so if you do then you do willingly -- if you do not you die -- I wonder how many folks if it got down to that would choose the latter over the former.
Psychologically speaking, self-preservation is an extremely strong motivator. Yes there are those that fore-go that but they are usually the exception to the rule rather than being the common rule.
Further to me it is easy to sit back and arm chair these concepts, but I wonder if any of you would choose death over a doing some bad things just to live a bit longer, with the hope you might some day be able to atone for those forced upon you sins. Sure you chose to do them, but it was either you or them, and you didn't even know them.
Again, just looking for some deep introspection on this, and straight forward honesty. Personally I cannot say what I would do faced with such a situation. I would like to think I would chose death but I cannot say 100% sure that would be what I chose. Thus the question.
The Force is black and white. One either uses it for good or for bad.It is very much a dualistic understanding.
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It's one of Star Wars' (many) troublespome spots that they make specific moral claims about supernatural agency that place objective values upon choices regardless of context. Taken in conjunction with the rebellion against the Empire, it becomes ideologically incoherent (which leads to some hoop-jumping in the stories at some points).
As a specific example, consider Luke's actions in his struggle against the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Luke ultimately rejects violence and chooses not to fight the Emperor, convinced that in doing so he will give in to anger and hate and become the very thing that he is trying to destroy. He throws away his saber and refuses to fight any more. The Emperor then moves in for the kill with lightning and it's only when Vader intervenes that Luke is saved. Had Vader not been there, Luke would've died for his convictions.
Anyway, game mechanically, if a power is tagged [Dark Side], then you are engaging the dark side of the Force when you use it, regardless of the circumstances and motivations.
Yes I gathered that from the fact you are using the guidelines as written but how does that affect someone who is only choosing to perserve their life versus someone pursuing power?
Is there absolutely no difference? Yes game mechanically most likely not as the outcome is the same but again hypothetically just focussing on the Force outside of game mechanics what would be the outcome?
Personally I do not see the Force as being black and white based on numerous aspects about the Force that has been presented.
Luke mentions (in one of the later films) that the Force seeks balance, if a great Dark should arise it will cause a great Light to arise and vice-versa. Note that is a reflective statement of what they actually said, do not recall the word for word dialogue.
Further way in the beginning on the planet where the Major Force Users began, there was the concept that the Force was to be used internally in a balanced manner. If you were too Light you needed more Dark if you were to Dark you needed more Light. And if those practicing the Force on this planet got too out of balance they would experience Force Storms. Then they, due to an outside issue, splintered into the Jedi and Sith.
Now it seems to me that the imbalance between the Light and the Dark now creates these "Force Storms" in the form of galactic battles and until the balance is restored these galactic battles (or Force Storms) will continue to rage.
So how do you see this constant war between Black and White in lew of this information? I mean, yeah the White and Black may continue but if the balance could once more be restored, these galactic storms (aka wars) would conceivably cease.
One cannot use evil to do a good
One cannot use evil to do a good
Evil perverts or subverts your ultimate goal.
One of the Dragonlance themes with the Kingpriest of Istar and his crusades to eradicate the "evil" races. I always thought that was an interesting angle and taught a pretty powerful lesson.
I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(
Okay I know you all seem to view the Light and Dark Side of the Force as Good vs Evil but from many of the elements I have read it is more like a tool. As such, it is neither good nor evil.
Only those that use it are the ones that can attribute good or evil to it. Yes, I agree the Dark Side is used more for evil than good and vice versa but that again is based on those that use it and not what it is.
Still yes, per the Guidelines there is no other way to interpret this as they have clearly taken the stance that the Dark is Evil and the Light is Good. Even though that is not quite the way the originator outlined the Force to begin with as it is strongly based on the concept of Yin and Yang. Still it is what it is and I am not trying to convert anyone from their view of the Force.
Again all I was just interested in was if someone forced to pursue the Dark Side could "repent" and follow only the Light Side. Thus it seems, that no one here thinks that would be possible. So thanks for your thoughts.
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Okay I did a quick google search and found this in response to this question:
Core Rulebook. Pg. 70. "Repair Object: You can spend 1 hour and make a D20 Mechanics check to repair a damaged object, restoring 1d8 hit points and removing any persistent conditions currently affecting the device or vehicle. If you are on board a damaged vehicle while you attempt to repair it, apply any penalties from the vehicle's position on the condition track to your Mechanics check. (Major vehicle repairs are best attempted in a garage, hangar, dry dock, or other specialized facility.)
Scum and Villainy pages 94 - 97, tables 3-8, 3-9, 3-10, 3-11, and 3-12 cover costs relating to parts availability, docking bay security, refueling, restocking, and mechanic availability. On pg. 95 there is a specific price point of 100 credits per hp of damage for someone else to fix your ship. However, if you do it yourself it is free-ish. This does not factor in the costs listed on the mentioned tables.
Chapter 3 of Starships of the Galaxy provides everything you need to know for modifying your ship, including large scale upgrades and the necessary price points for a build your own.
I think that there are rules for atonement.
I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(
I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
Okay I know you all seem to view the Light and Dark Side of the Force as Good vs Evil but from many of the elements I have read it is more like a tool. As such, it is neither good nor evil.
Only those that use it are the ones that can attribute good or evil to it. Yes, I agree the Dark Side is used more for evil than good and vice versa but that again is based on those that use it and not what it is.
Still yes, per the Guidelines there is no other way to interpret this as they have clearly taken the stance that the Dark is Evil and the Light is Good. Even though that is not quite the way the originator outlined the Force to begin with as it is strongly based on the concept of Yin and Yang. Still it is what it is and I am not trying to convert anyone from their view of the Force.
Again all I was just interested in was if someone forced to pursue the Dark Side could "repent" and follow only the Light Side. Thus it seems, that no one here thinks that would be possible. So thanks for your thoughts.
Oh I could see an argument as to how it is a tool and it's the wielders intent that is dispositive, but I don't think that mechanically it is viewed that way in most of the RPGs or the Expanded Universe for that matter ( at least based on the boos that I have read over the years - though I have only read maybe 20% of what was released since the 90's). I don't know or care how "new" Lucasfilm sees it as I don't think they think too deeply about anything at all.
Of course I am a Lawyer so it's my job to argue either side depending on who I'm representing!
Well I am not a lawyer but a game designer on the side, so yeah I fully understand that (as far as I am concerned) the various developers got the Force way wrong in their coverage of the mechanics. They simply glossed over the top rather than doing a deeper dive into its more metaphysical origins. Still they were probably rushed and underpaid so simply pushed out whatever regardless of its actual galactic conceptual quality.
I was investigating at one time how to more properly define the use of the Light and Dark Side as tools in conjunction with the corruption of ones mortal views on using it but seeing how it seemed no one was interested in the Force as a simple tool but would much rather go with Light is Good, Dark is Evil. I just felt it was not worth pursuing.
Still my basic concept was that the Light Side represented control while the Dark Side represented power and to properly use it you wanted a balanced approach in some way. Equal parts Light and equal parts Dark, or at least to balance that internally at some point.
For instance, what if the Light Side garnered Light Side points like the Dark Side garners Dark Side points. Your objective is to keep these two in balance as much as possible as they cancel one another. However using too much Light is as bad as using too much Dark. For this could create a Force Storm within oneself much like the Force Storms that got created on the original planet. As well as the Force Storms (galactic wars) that are created today due to the imbalance in the Force.
Now I was not fully sure how to proceed with this but since no one seemed interested I let it go as a useless endeavor.
Notably, in the movies specifically, the term "Light Side" does not appear until the Clone Wars movies. In the original SW films there is only the Force, and then the corrupted "Dark Side" usage from those who misuse it.
Yes and there are a couple of internet articles describing how the mysterious entities collected numerous species within massive mysterious pyramids and brought them to Tython which existed somewhere within the galaxy's Deep Core.
Now Tython had two moons, a light moon and a dark moon. Those living on Tython soon learned about the Force and found only those that had the ability to use it could exist safely upon the planet. Further, these first followers of the Force, the Ja'daii, used the Force in a peaceful and balanced manor for centuries. They found if too much Light Force or too much Dark Force was focussed on they would experience planet wide Force Storms. So staying internally balanced between Light and Dark was very important. However, how this would be achieved game mechanics wise was never addressed as the simplier Light is Good, Dark is Evil was much simpler to design. However, I will mention that there is a much later faction of Force Users that seemed to have relearned this aspect of using the Force in a balanced manner without every succumbing to being completely consumed by the Dark Side which is a concept constantly pushed by the proponents of the singular Light Side approach, and to some degree those of the Dark Side as well.
Now this basic status quo on Tython, due to outside forces (which more than one completely different catalyst is described for this based on which source material you pull it from) that caused a major schism and the Great Force War on Tython came to be. This then at the conclusion saw the exile from the planet of those that would be called Sith and those remaining who would become the Jedi.
Thus the Force would be for every in a state of imbalance, and the Force Storms (aka galactic wars) would now rage across the galaxy.
Once I read this concept about the Force, I found it extremely intriguing as this more correctly mirrored the concept of Yin and Yang, However on the flip-side, it did not reflect how Chi (or Ki) is viewed as that is more the Good vs Evil as is being portrayed by the Force in current guidelines. However, the latter greatly steps away from the concept of the balance of the Force, which has been hinted at and almost out right stated within the movies and other canon material.
I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
The 5e stuff takes away the uniquness of Goldmoon and the Disks of Mishakel. They also got rid of the prestige of the various Knights Orders. You can take a feat, IIRC at 4th level and be a Knight of the Crown, Sword or Rose .
I like the new novels. I am looking forward to the new one, part of what I like is that the metallic dragons are on the cover.
I liked what Weis developed in the Age of Mortals. I feel bad for poor Jean Rabe who had to develop the 5th Age.
From the 2 editons of the Star Wars game that I have played there has not been Light Side points. The point is not to fall to the Dark Side, which I think happens if your DSP total goes past your Wisdom score.
I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
Terevalis was a fun character to play, even if Pollyanna Althea defended the knight all of the time :)
I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
The 5e stuff takes away the uniquness of Goldmoon and the Disks of Mishakel. They also got rid of the prestige of the various Knights Orders. You can take a feat, IIRC at 4th level and be a Knight of the Crown, Sword or Rose .
I like the new novels. I am looking forward to the new one, part of what I like is that the metallic dragons are on the cover.
I liked what Weis developed in the Age of Mortals. I feel bad for poor Jean Rabe who had to develop the 5th Age.
At that's it, the 5th AGE, that's what I didn't like! Got my Dragonlance history mixed up!
Terevalis was a fun character to play, even if Pollyanna Althea defended the knight all of the time :)I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
Yeah, that was a great game and we all played or characters really well, too bad the DM just up and disappeared on us. Ah well, it happens.
At that's it, the 5th AGE, that's what I didn't like! Got my Dragonlance history mixed up!I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
The 5e stuff takes away the uniquness of Goldmoon and the Disks of Mishakel. They also got rid of the prestige of the various Knights Orders. You can take a feat, IIRC at 4th level and be a Knight of the Crown, Sword or Rose .
I like the new novels. I am looking forward to the new one, part of what I like is that the metallic dragons are on the cover.
I liked what Weis developed in the Age of Mortals. I feel bad for poor Jean Rabe who had to develop the 5th Age.
5E D and D did that in terms of the Knights, 5th Age D and D was still under 2E, Saga and 3-3.5 Edition
Yeah, that was a great game and we all played or characters really well, too bad the DM just up and disappeared on us. Ah well, it happens.Terevalis was a fun character to play, even if Pollyanna Althea defended the knight all of the time :)I love Dragonlance and hate what 5E did to it. :(I hated what was done to it in the Age of Mortals TBH, have not seen what 5E did.
The new Weis/Hickman book I'm not sure about either, I'll be getting book II so I will see how that one is.
I hope that the DM is okay. I looked the other day to see if High God had many any posts lately and it has been years since he has posted IIRC.
Yeah, a lot of people I have played with on the boards over the years have just disappeared. :-(
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Yeah RL happens and sometimes it does not happen kindly. We would have had a player in one the games I am in just ghost us, if it was not for another gamer that new them personally.
Long story short, they were killed in a car accident. Sad to hear but things like that happen. You are only guaranteed yesterday (yestertime if it is the same day) for the tomorrow (no matter how short it be in time) may never come.
So live like you die tomorrow but plan like you will live forever. Or as Tim MacGraw wrote:
"I went skydiving, I went Rocky Mountain climbing
I went two point seven seconds on a bull named Fu Man Chu
And I loved deeper, and I spoke sweeter
And I gave forgiveness I'd been denyin'"
And he said, "Someday I hope you get the chance
To live like you were dyin'"
I will try to add more tomorrow or Saturday, had to stay a bit late for work due to new employee orientation and I ended up pulling a muscle in my neck. it sucks getting old, lol.
GM, I fully understand the getting older statement.
My wife accuses me of falling under the Old Timers Syndrome.
AKA - Cannot hear her
But injuries accrued over 22 years of military service are still bothering me. :(
I ahoild be on tbis pm. Uesterday was busier than I expected.
Happy 4th of July
Happy belated 4th!
I marked off the Force Point, but for future reference do you need to decide before to use it or can you roll and spend it after the fact like I did/tried to do?
IIRC, you can do it after the fact? What do the rules say?
One of the schools that I interviewed with in May contacted me today with an offer almost 30k more than I am making now. I will be resigning tomorrow and think that the 28th will be my last day at Job Corps.
One of the schools that I interviewed with in May contacted me today with an offer almost 30k more than I am making now. I will be resigning tomorrow and think that the 28th will be my last day at Job Corps.
Wow, nice turn of events!
While I enjoy my job, this is bot something I can turn down.
Cannot blame you for jumping ship.
I rendered the resignayion a few moments ago supervisor totally understood.
Leaving on good terms, nothing wrong with that.
My supervisor and other teaching cohort are sad I am leaving but theybtotally get it.
That's an awesome raise.
That's an awesome raise.
I could not say no, especially since it will advance my career much more than my current job.
I am here just monitoring the game discussion, I will move us on Tuesday.
I cannot move the game forward if there is nothing to advance. There has been no activity since Saturday and no one real plan that is being set upon, mostly due to lack of posting activity from a few party members.
I need to know what direction this group wants to take, if it wants to take any direction.
Friday is the new date, I have the day off so I will be looking in the early afternoon.
I know I cannot find Ion weapons in the books I have, but they are in canon; and I seriously cannot think of anything else.
Are they in the Wookiepedia page? IIRC they used to have them in the Revised Core book, the edition that came out before SAGA.
You're probably thinking of something like an ionized cluster missile.
I yhought they had grenades as eell
Sure, but I doubt that even a handful of ion grenades will disable a whole ship.