Savage Rifts and the Tomorrow Legion

Game Master Shadow Bloodmoon

The world ended and now you are a part of its rebirth and aftermath. The Tomorrow Legion protects the innocent from those who would harm, hinder or simply eat them. You are a part of the Legion, make us proud.

Maps


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Sovereign Court

oh man! some great RP!

Okay so some points)

1) Mines are always big sprawling messy.places. Like army bases. It's almost impossible for them to be inside city limits. Like army bases.

2) The field gives a -4 to notice my stealth. and it doesnt malfunction. as close to invisibility as non-magic can get. Thats a big difference between it and a GB. indeed I invested in that for that purpose.

3) Mmmmmmrmph. In the fight we had coming back when I wasnt in my suit I did all of butt. the one against the platform and slave girls. I dont think I did a single wound. if this fight can give you a challenge I will be useless.

4) I actually like this idea of leaving Anya behind. Either Burgurk will triumph, and thus she is shamed and seen as not important, and therefore nothing bad would have happened if she had gone along....
or....
or Burgurk is pinned down and wounded and must wrestle with the difficult decision of making the call to the unpredictable mech jock, knowing that he doesn't want to, but having no choice if he wants to survive!

Seemes like a win-win to me.


Burgurk wrote:


P.S. - Atlas, in another RIFTS game my PC has a Glitter Boy, which so far he has not had the chance to wear or use *the entire game*, because he's in a city that doesn't allow them. That's the problem with powersuits, they can be taken away from you. But, like Anya, he has cyber enhancements which lets him keep up.

Being honest, that sounds like a situation where I'd ask to swap characters, because that's the kind of thing a GM should tell you before the game starts.

Kind of like if you made a Cleric for a Pathfinder game but the GM after the game starts is like "SO this game takes place in Rahadoum...".


Storm Dragon - well, I thought we'd only be in the city for a little while, and now the game's stalled (but it's "not dead yet"), and so far we haven't come up against anything that my cyber-enhancements can't handle. Now, if we'd repeatedly come up against powerful foes, I might consider that.

Anya - ok, I finally tracked down where Burgurk followed the guy to the mine, and DB SBM said when he came back, he "starts walking back towards the town." When I said that I hid behind some buildings so he wouldn't notice me, I was imagining that he was still *in* the town, and the mine *entrance* was inside the town.

So, it is arguable (on our part) that taking the armor to the mine would not be taking it inside the town, but the people who run the town might decide differently and just say that the mine is *part* of the town.

And, Longshot has already said that using your armor "would instantly bring the wrath of his demons on the town" - do you want to be responsible for that? On that argument alone, Burgurk would be adamant that you not use your armor.

Regarding your cloak, a -4 to Notice is *NOT* a guarantee by any means. If you walked by a dozen men on the way to the mine entrance and inside it, that's a dozen chances for someone to notice you, of which one will probably succeed. And the description says the field fails if the user "attacks or does something really un-steathfully". So the moment you attack, everyone sees you. Also, if you fly, I'd assume that the engines would make some noise, giving you away. This doesn't sound very foolproof to me. If Burgurk knew all this (and being team leader, he'd've acquainted himself with all his teammates' abilities), he'd dismiss your "invisibility" as very unreliable.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

The tension is getting high, yes, and so far you guys have managed to keep it civil on the Real Side of things. I'd like to keep it that way. As mentioned by others earlier, Anya is a loose cannon and many times, loose cannons end up bringing the bad stuff back on the rest of the team. I suspect that at some point in the near future, this will cause an issue in which Anya will have to have a serious discussion with her inner self about going off the rails on a regular basis. Her perceived cavalier attitude back at base was precisely the reason she was not selected for command. As far as her story goes, I am looking towards a dynamic character arc between the two of you, where if you may not see eye to eye, there is at least a mutual respect.

That said, I can't force the issue. If we need to break up the team due to differences in opinion, we can certainly do that in order to keep the peace in Real Life. In game, it would be an act of Burgurk reporting Anya's insubordination and going from there.

As far as her disappearing act, yes, if she does something that is plainly visible or audible, there is almost zero chance that people won't notice. Stealth systems on vehicles are more for other vehicle sensors systems. I have seen an F117 and a B2 flyover and believe you me, you can't miss them. Even with a cloaking device, there is always some tell tale sign of passing. Engine baffles not withstanding.

As mentioned in the game thread, the entrance is in fact in town, but the mines themselves lead out and away from town as you go inside.

Sovereign Court

Alright, I can settle this whole thing in two moves:

1)

ZenFox42 wrote:
Also, if you fly, I'd assume that the engines would make some noise, giving you away.

Please stop this. This line of thinking has already been disproven before in this game.

It's trapping is that it's a super-quiet anti-gravity machine of silent death because SCIENCE! So please stop it.

Also, there are only two men on guard at the mine entrance. Less if Longshot lures them away.

I could just glide in silently into the mindshaft as quiet as a ghost, or a specter, or a...something else? I can't think of it right now but it'll come to me.

But that doesn't matter because:

2)

I finally recognized the RP path that Burgurk is taking. I thought I knew all ZenFox's tricks but he got this one past me. It's like he's doing a very smooth McClellen-based track. Very good. Very subtle. Most of the inspiration coming from the...Peninsula Campaign, I'm guessing?

Anyway, we've been trying to do it the hard way, but it's time we entertained the easy way:

Burgurk: "Well, Anya, you're right. I do want all our big guns facing forward, and so we should try to bring all our resources into play.

You and Shakti stay here. When Longshot lures the guards away, I'll peek in to the mineshaft and record the demons.

Boom, that'll complete our mission.

-IF- I think we should attack, I'll call you on the radio, and Shakti can teleport you two to my location."

Anya: "Huh. That way I get to be in my panzer AND it's in the mine, and not in town. You're so smart BG!"

There. Everybody wins.


1. I have a terrible memory, please be patient with me if I forget something that's been said before. Especially if it doesn't deal directly with my character. And was probably months ago IRL.

2. Given that Longshot has said that Anya's presence in her suit would cause the demons to attack the townspeople, there is *no way* that Burgurk is going to let Anya near the mine in her armor. Ever.

And, as DB SBM has said twice, the entrance to the mine *is* inside the town. So that's a second reason Burgurk wouldn't let Anya near the mines in her suit.

Also, there's no point in Burgurk doing a re-con : we already know what the situation is - demons are being summoned from an alternate plane. Burgurk will still insist on contacting Castle Refuge immediately to tell them what we know already, and ask for further instructions.

*IF* we are given the go-ahead to attack, here's a counter-proposal : Burgurk, Shakti, and Ezekial go to the mine and wipe out the demons and the sorcerer that's summoning them. Anya can accompany us without her armor, or wait outside the town in her armor, but Burgurk will make it clear that he will *never* call her in to fight (unless maybe all the demons are dead, and we're just dealing with the sorcerer...).

I'm not sure whether I should be typing all this here, or in-character in the campaign. I'm doing it here so Anya's player can respond first.


A killer GM with a killer smile.

Don't really want to poke my nose in to a fight I don't have a dog in, but I have to ask, Wraith, is this the same suit that I approved when Wraith was introduced to my game, or did you rebuild/renegotiate with DMBloodmoon when you switched over? If it is the same, I don't know that your assertions necessarily track. We used a regular Super-SAMAS for the base, and then traded off some stats to get a Stealth System from the Sci-Fi companion.

That Stealth system adds extra baffles, mufflers, and a chameleon like coating that makes the suit harder to track and target, but does not make it even invisible, let alone silent. If the details got changed when you were working with DM BM I'll butt out, as my info will be out of date, but from the discussions you and I had, we may need to press reset for a second, and make sure everyone is on the same page about what your suit can or cannot actually do.

Sovereign Court

ZenFox42 wrote:
1. I have a terrible memory, please be patient with me if I forget something that's been said before. Especially if it doesn't deal directly with my character. And was probably months ago IRL.

Fair 'nuff.

ZenFox42 wrote:


Anya can...wait outside the town in her armor, but Burgurk will make it clear that he will *never* call her in to fight (unless maybe all the demons are dead, and we're just dealing with the sorcerer...).

NOW we're getting some Role=Playing!

I can really respect someone who stands up for what they believe in. (Even if it's an arbitrary and easily-avoided rule. ;)

Done and done!

May you die with honor. =)

Sovereign Court

Rigor Rictus wrote:
Don't really want to poke my nose in

Let's not re-open old wounds that were already hashed out months ago. We only just now got all the things settled.


Ok, now I'm just curious - Anya, the two reasons Burgurk won't let you in the town with your suit are 1)it would threaten the people of the town, and 2)it would violate the rules of the town.

How are these "easily avoided"?


A killer GM with a killer smile.

I wonder about your definition of Settled as well. Could you point to the post(s) where we agreed to an interpretation of your stealth capabilities?

It was a while ago, but the last time it came up, I recall thinking that what you were describing was not what I had agreed to.

When the group was discussing it, I thought the only agreement we came to was that we ended up using a different strategy, and effectively kicking the Stealth conversation-can down the street a bit, as it ended up not being something that needed to be hashed out at that time.

I think this is why it keeps getting brought up, because while you may feel it was settled, no one else actually agreed to anything.

Zen, am I wrong?

I think this is something DMBloodmoon needs to rule on; was the stealth ability something different you negotiated with Atlas2112, or was it the same Stealth Tech the character had when she was in my game?

If it was something the DM approved, I have no issues with the GM providing a bit of Ultra-Tech, and will drop it entirely. In fact, the group can get behind exploiting some of the perks of that kind of tech being available, when appropriate (which is not here in this village, at least not yet). If it is the stealth tech I approved, Wraith may have to adjust her thinking in regards to what the unit is capable of.


I don't want to get involved in making decisions or anything, but I will report what I found :

On Feb 9, Shakti said HERE, "I would think that no amount of stealth bonus is going to do much against the sound of the turbine engines on a flight mech."

In response, Anya said on Feb 9 HERE, "Guys, it says -4 to detect. That would hardly be worth anything if it still made the sound of a jet engine. It's probably "anti-grav boosters" or something."

DM SBM didn't comment about this interpretation of "stealth" or how it interacts with engine noise at that time. Immediately after, he allowed her to get within 500 yards of the enemy, but no Notice rolls were made at all.

However, the Stealth option and the Flight option are two different options (so one *might* negate the other, either way...or not), and as DM SBM has said recently, "Stealth systems on vehicles are more for other vehicle sensors systems."


A killer GM with a killer smile.

I want to stress to Atlas2112 that we are not hashing this out to pick on you, or cramp you style. I am doing this because you and the rest of the players seem to be on very different pages about what the expectations of such a Stealth system should be able to do. You have declared the issue settled, but it appears to be very far from that. I've noticed that when you suggest something and face resistance, you often offer what you see as a compromise, and than proceed as though the suggestion has been accepted, the issue settled. However, your suggestions often do not get to the core of the objection, and are not really agreeable to all parties for that reason. This is meant as a constructive criticism, so I hope you can take it in that light, but when negotiating with others, it is often important to make sure you understand the nature of the objection, and that not all compromises will be acceptable, because compromise has to be a negotiation, and acceptable to all parties. Here of course, DM BM has final say on rules issues, and if he is OK with the Stealth system on your mech being an Ultra-Tech invisibility field, we can accept that, but if he doesn't, then it needs to get sorted, or this type of objection will continue to come up every time the Stealth feature gets brought up.

That is more in line with what I had envisioned. Here is what the Sci-Fi companion actually says:

Here is what the Sci-Fi companion says about the Stealth Upgrade:

Sci-Fi Companion wrote:
Stealth System (1): This thin and pliable piezoelectric material combines chameleon-like visual skin with heat baffles, radar scramblers, and other devices to make the suit difficult to detect by vision or sensors. Those trying to attack or detect the suit subtract 4 from their rolls against it. The effect is triggered as a free action, but is negated any round in which the user fires a weapon or emits some other non-cloakable signal such as radio broadcasts or active sensor searches.

It does not say anything about changing the kind of drive system the core vehicle has; it says it adds mufflers and perhaps other sound suppression systems. So it wouldn't have a silent gravity drive, as it is essentially a Super-SAMAS (that is where we derived the stats from), with the same kind of boosters a SAMAS has (it is not actually a SAMAS, as we established it is from another dimension, but is the equivalent of a SAMAS for all intents and purposes). As the engines are nuclear powered, I am picturing a system where the power is used to super-compress air and superheat the air, which would further increase the pressure as the heated air would naturally want to expand. The high pressure air would be expelled from the engines, providing thrust. Essentially a modern turbine jet engine, but one where nuclear powered electric coils are used to heat the air instead of a combustible fuel. On a non-stealth craft, this would be extremely loud, on par with a regular jet engine.

What I imagine the stealth system would do would be to add baffles that would obscure the otherwise distinctive heat signature, a highly specialized muffler system that would dampen the noise, and use a coating on the skin to create an adaptive camouflage. It might also use some sort of active electronic countermeasures, such as radar jamming, or Active Noise control, where inverse sound waves are used to cancel out some of the existing sound.

In all three cases, heat, noise, and visibility, these would work to reduce the craft’s signature, making it harder to spot, and harder to get a target lock. Notice in the description, it never uses any words along the lines of invisible, undetectable, silent, or anything else of that variety.

I think the misunderstanding here is that this is not Invisibility, with -4 to penetrate that invisibility, it is actually just less obvious, or like a regular power suit flying but with -4 to notice it. The stealth system would enable you to get much closer than a turbine powered suit should be able to get before being noticed, but it does not make it something other than a turbine powered suit.

I think of this like real firearm sound suppressors. While movies show gunshots being reduced to the volume of mouse farts, when in reality, they usually just reduce the sound enough to make the noise less damaging to the ears. A silenced gun will be way less noisy than an unsilenced one, but it is still a gun. It will still wake up everyone in the house when fired, but that is probably better than waking up everyone on the street, which is what it would do unsuppressed.


Seems pretty cut and dried to me; if you want the suit to be actually invisible/silent, certainly there are ways to do that I think.

What would it cost to get a device that mimics the invisibility spell or superpower installed?


A killer GM with a killer smile.

I dont think there is a way to do it in the rules. Word of Clint is that spells like invisibility or shield do not apply to vehicles, so TW is out, even if Wraith could use it, which as a non psionic cyborg, she cant anyway.

An ultra-tech device of some sort would be exactly what it would need to be; a one of a kind device, that was as a result would be basically priceless. Could be the result of a quest line or something, or something plot relevant. Or a boon from a super genius or alien race, that we did a favour, or that sort of thing.


While we're waiting for DB SBM to weigh in on this, I'm going to pick the collective brains of the PEG community about this.... I'd ask for an official answer, but the guy in charge of that answers questions only about once every other week.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

I have been monitoring this discussion and here is the thing, yes, Rifts is full of overpowered high octane characters. Wait until the Wormwood supplement comes out...* Anyway, a lot of the mitigating factors have to come from in game, such as other creatures who can match your powers, or overwhelming odds, or the fact that unleashing your powers could cause a lot of innocent deaths.

One thing that stands out is that Anya's suit is power armor and power Armor gets a flat -6 to Stealth all the time (SWEX Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide, pg. 82). Her Stealth Systems put a -4 penalty on the viewer, but does not change the Power Armor modifier to Stealth. This stays in line with what everyone, including myself, has been saying. Yes, the Stealth System is impressive, but even so, the fact that it is power armor, with all the noise, size and sensor data that it gives off, it can still be found, just not as easily as a Glitter Boy. Regardless of the arbitrary anti-grav system that makes it quieter, it is still bigger than a person and easier to see, giving a net -2 to Stealth. (-6 from being Power Armor, +4 as the inverse of the penalty to Notice to observers.) That should mitigate the perceived power imbalance in the game.

The GM's Book for Rifts doesn't go into detail about putting invisibility as a spell on power armor, only how it can detect someone with it, but based on what I've read so far, unless it is TW Armor, it can not have invisibility cast on it, similar to casting shield on it.

*Note that this is conjecture. The only ones I know for sure are the upcoming Atlantis and Coalition books.

Sovereign Court

I too have been monitoring this discussion and have roughly the same viewpoints.

How odd it is to think that such a thing is beyond the game's ken...when the very same modifiers are offered up in the Body Armor table of the Hero's Journey.

@GM: When I roll stealth do you just want me to subtract 2 to keep the math easier?
Also @GM: Know that I've been playing Anya under the new ranks, it seems like giving her the command edge was too soon. She needs to actually be in the environment where such a thing is needed to feel that inner growth.

Can I swap it out to shore up some weaknesses? Increase to Stealth and Intimidate.


Still, a -2 to Stealth is not "invisibility". If Anya ups her Stealth to d10, a -2 gives her a 58% chance of making an un-contested regular Success - just a little over half the time!

And, if the roll *is* un-contested (by say an "inactive" guard), wouldn't that roll be at -6, since no Notice is involved to get the +4 from the Stealth system? In which case her chances of success are a measly 17%!

If an "active" enemy gets an opposed Notice roll, let's say as low as d6, she still only has a 53% chance of success - again, just half the time!

I have no problem with DM SBM's ruling, but it is clear that Anya cannot treat her suit as "invisible" or "silent" by any means.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

Technically, by rules as written, yes, the inactive roll would be a straight roll with the modifier. I feel it odd that it is actually easier to detect her when they are not paying attention, but I digress. To keep the math simple and still viable, the -2 works for me.

As for trappings of it, perhaps Anya herself misunderstands the technology of the suit because she wasn't the one who designed it, or had anything to do with its creation, she just happened to be in it when she arrived on Rifts Earth. To her, she is invisible and silent, but in reality, she is just more difficult to detect.

As for changing the Command Edge, I'm inclined to say yes, but not without a caveat. First, I feel that since that is a path that Anya is working on, she should still be working on it. Secondly, there are two NPCs on your team that can still benefit from the Edge. Even though Burgurk is the leader of the team, Anya's fearless attitude inspires them to keep fighting. Or something along those lines. I also like to keep such changes as having an in-game reason. Why did she suddenly lose the ability to inspire, but then get better at the other things.

Just some things to consider.


Heh. Yeah, right after Anya got her suit she flew overhead of some people, who she noticed didn't even look at her. She concluded that she must be invisible and silent, but in reality the people were just too tired, dumb, and/or not curious enough to look. ;) Oh, and her suit's *helmet* blocks all the noise her thrusters make, so she hears nothing herself.

Also, that "easier to notice when they're not looking" *is* very weird, I'm fine with a constant -2 as well.

Sovereign Court

Does anyone else get the feeling that Burgurk is just being obstinate?

I don't know if it's just a really cunning RP line, but I'm starting to get confused.

Also, it seemed like the "I can see you just fine" line is kinda taking away my agency. I just rolled a Stealth success, under the conditions we just agreed on, so the line seems not in line with reality.


I do have to ask, at a certain point what's the point of making a character the leader if their orders are NEVER followed, or alternately what's the in-character excuse for keeping around a character who never follows orders?

I didn't read up on the earlier parts of the game, so forgive me if this was explained in an earlier part, but while I'm not saying every character should be slavishly devoted to Burgurk's orders, or anything like that (Ezekial's not the kind to lick boots or follow orders unquestioningly either), but when he asks something reasonable like "leave the big loud mech suit out of this mission requiring discretion" or "go check out that thing we all should really be interested in", I think it should probably be listened to.

I think everybody in the game agrees, at least, that the suit's not invisible, which is sort of the problem. "Hard to spot" is not the same thing as invisible, and the suit's not even hard to spot; a 1d6-2 stealth is only marginally better than untrained stealth. You are still statistically likely to lose out to a jobber with a d6 Notice, much less an actual threat, so is it really unreasonable to say it's kind of obvious?


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10

I have to side with Burgurk here. And not just a little, as Anya's actions make no sense at all from a military, or even common sense perspective. She is definately quirky and impulsive, but her actions arr reaching over into mental health kind of territory.

A) This is a military unit. Based on her bahavoiurs so far, I would expect Burgurk's first action when we get back to base to be to report her for insubordination. She has ignored and disobeyed multiple direct orders. She should probably face disciplinary action of some sort based on her conduct thus far, and at the very least I think he would have obvious grounds to have her removed from his unit. A soldier that cannot follow orders is a liability. Even Shakti, who does not consider herself part of this "quaint hierarchy" would regard the mission as under Burgurk's direction. She might defy him if she felt it was in the/her greater interest, but she would expect to lose any standing she has with the Tomorrow Legion as a result, so would weigh the advantages and disadvantages of those actions very carefully before committing to them.

B) The suit is not invisible, at all. I am on board with a Notice -2, as the other interpretation does seem like a hole in the rules. However, it still runs on turbines, and kicks up winds and dust wherever it goes. When it comes to rolling stealth with such a vehicle, I think this is more like a active firing sniper. You can hear the gunshots, tell that they are probably coming from that ridge to the south, but still be unable to spot the sniper. Hes there, hes operating a noisy piece of equipment (whether my firing sniper, or your mech suit), but you still cannot tell exactly where he is. His position is obscured. I think that is about the best result that can be achieved with this stealth system. Everybody can tell there is a flying armour in the area, but the noise is more defused and echoey than a regular suit would be, and with the chameleon system, they may not be able to track it easily with the eye, but they all know it is there somewhere (just like the sniper). I would think that like firing a gun, starting up the turbines means people will know someone is about. They may not know if the suit is on this street, or over on the next street, but they know a mech is operating. If she want to have any chance of being invisible, she more or less needs to be walking or holding still.

C) Not sure what exactly you are going for with the character. Is she delusional in regards to what it can do, or just wanting to use her toys and making excuses (which I get, but again shes been ordered not to do so)? That should be the end of discussion. If she disobeys that, we can't stop her, but if she has any idea what military protocols are required, she should be expecting suspension of duty upon returning to Castle Refuge, pending a potential Court Martial. Burgurk would be within his rights right now to order the rest of us to arrest her (if we could - none of us has a mech suit) and hold her until she can be delivered for said court martial. Just like Shakti would expect if she defies the military commander of the mission, Wraith should be completely aware of the consequences. This relates back to point A: military campaigns are not typical D&D parties. They are different in a few ways. In most games, when the rogue tells the Paladin to sod off and goes and robs the townspeople of the village, if he finds out, they fight, and work it out. As while he might be the leader, the Paladin is not necessarily the commander. This situation is very different. You are a soldier and have been placed under Burgurk's command. If you defy him, you are now a soldier that cannot follow orders. Soldiers that cannot be counted on to follow their orders are useless to a military, (less than useless actually) and will be treated accordingly.

I just really think Anya is not on the same page as the rest of us, and not sure if that is intended as quirky behaviour, or if it relates to the player seeing the game as different from the rest of us.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

I've seen "Anya" in several different games, and she's always played the same way. It's just that in this game, under these circumstances, the PC doesn't fit in well with the rest of the party. I would suggest that at some point soon, Anya has an epiphany about the consequences of her actions, and start acting a little bit differently.

And honestly, based on the previous discussions and decisions, Anya's insistence that she's stealthy while flying is getting kind of old...


Savage Rifts RotRwT

Just so everyone is aware, Anya has officially left the game citing the recent disagreements regarding her suit. I will npc her out of game, but we can continue from where we are.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

Since she's going to be an NPC anyway, could you play her as we attack the mines, without her suit? Every weapon firing will be of help.


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10

It is always a shame to see someone drop out of a game. In this case however, I have more mixed feelings, as Anya was clearly mismatched with our team. While a quirky wildcard is pretty standard in any typical adventuring crew, in a military campaign, it was a very poor fit.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

She will be available for the assault on the mine, but after that, she will eventually leave.

I never enjoy having a player leave, especially if it is not for a RealLife reason. I was hoping to have the character arc played out with her coming to terms with Burgurk's leadership and her own wildness. Either way, we move on.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

Yes, I'm sorry to see her leave too.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

Did we lose everybody? Ezekiel came back tot he group to explain what he found out and no one has posted since.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

I've been more busy at work than I thought I'd be. Probably another week to go before I get some breathing time. And I know Shakti's player has been extra busy as well...


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10

I have. Work has been intense, and we just got a new puppy, so nobody has been sleeping either.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

Fair enough. Thanks for checking in!


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10

Hey, checking in as DMsbm sent me a message. Ill try ti get caught up and post soon.


I'm beginning to think Savage RIFTS is not for me. I have no idea how to min/max this system, largely because it's not necessary in the base game. Every time I make a character it feels like whatever they do is pretty worthless. I have no idea how I'm supposed to reliably overcome Toughness 14.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

While I understand the frustration, I hardly consider any action worthless unless it specifically attempts to undermine the efforts of others in the team. Since we are not playing Paranoia, I think we're safe. At the moment you are providing a distraction for the rest of them and a sense of balance, as not all of the team is super powered and it is up to them to realize that at least three of you are not as toughand need to look out for you. Besides, after this scenario, Anya is gone and then I'm not sure about Shakti.

As for min/maxing, I don't care for it, so I'm just going to table that discussion for now. I believe I've been pretty clear about the kinds of characters I enjoy having in my games.

Looking at Ezekiel, I see a note about a Draining Blade that he has. That right there affects Vigor, which in turn affects Toughness, that might be something to look into using.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

The archetypes in RIFTS range from ridiculously over-powered, to way below average. When I first picked a Mind Melter, I found he was way less powered that Shakti and Anya. So I asked SBM for a bunch of additional abilities/enhancements, but that still wasn't enough. Then another player (sorry, can't remember who, and don't have time to look it up) created a "mental" version of the Burster (I think), and *that* has enough firepower.

Perhaps SBM would be willing to let you have some additional abilities?

There's a posting in the SW boards that ranks all the archetypes by overall "damage rating", I'll see if I can find it in the next few days.


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10

Hey, sorry I haven't been around much. Life has been a cruel mistress lately, but I'm not dead; at least, not yet.

That was me that made up the Psycho-kinetic; basically just a TK based re-
skin of the Burster, and not any more powerful.

I played in a irl Rifts game a while back and in that game I played a Techno-Wizard. To be honest, I think I was the most versatile character in the group. I had some heavy-hitter type options (I used Filthy rich to start with a vehicle, which I was able to use in a lot of encounters), but usually, just the insane flexibility of the TW is enough to break most encounters.

Build-wise, Master of Magic is an essential edge - it basically doubles the power of all your enchantments. Next, get your TW skill as high as possible to ensure you get a raise on most inventions.

Regardless, think of it this way; you are always within one action of having the perfect tool for any job! Demons? Create a laser-enhancer that magnifies the damage of your blaster (Greater Smite), and with Master of Magic, you can add an aura (or whatever they're called - Trapping, that's it) to it - such as Good, Holy, Silver, etc. Now your 2d6 blaster is doing 2d6+8+8* (Demon's take +8 from Holy or Silver).

Need a sneak attack? Cloaking Device. Need to get away quick or get inside the vault? Teleporter. Need a translator? Speak Language. Get through a battlefield untouched? Phase Shifter. Don't even get me started on the buff and debuffs they can access (Boost/Lower stat, Blind, Obscure, Quickness, Speed, Warrior's Blessing, and so on).

It got so bad that I actually switched characters when one session broke the immersion. It was becoming a running joke that my character could do almost anything, and if she couldn't, she could build it. We ended up at the end of a long battle that actually resulted in collapsing a town's only skyscrapper with us buried in the basement, trapped in the elevator. After I built a teleported to get us out, and we ran around for hours finishing off the remaining bad guys and rescuing all the peasants, someone asked if I had a device that could provide amazing coffee, to help deal with the exhaustion. I simply responded, "No, but I can build one." (Succor)

The whole table lost it laughing, and we had to end the session right there as the mood was just destroyed. It was a good time though.

Long story short, Techno-Wizards have the potential to be the most bad-ass archtype in the game, and with a few tweeks, I'm sure yours could be too.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

It looks like Ezekial hasn't noticed the Arcane Machinist ability, which is what Shakti is talking about :

Techno-Wizards begin with a variant of the Gadgeteer Edge which grants enormous flexibility. As an action (instead of 1d20 minutes),the character produces a magical gadget replicating any power available to Techno-Wizards [not just to *this* TW, but available to the archetype]. To make the device requires a successful Techno-Wizardry roll at −2 per Rank the power is above her own. The device has its own pool of PPE equal to half the Techno-Wizard’s normal maximum PPE pool (round down)....


I know it, I just didn't know the fiddly extra bits like "demons take +8 damage from holy", which is what I meant when I said I don't know how to optimize the system; I don't have any idea where that's listed.

Likewise I didn't think Master of Magic was SO important, since yes a lot of the enhanced spells seem baseline strong enough to compete. I figured it was a nice optional extra.

I'm just kind of blindsided by the fact that the first combat (for me) in this game is against a swarm of what I would presume to be cannon fodder (since there's so many of them) and I need to roll max damage almost just to get a single wound in; I may as well have not taken the cone attack in the first place.

It feels like a repeat of Rigor's game already, where everything is hunky dory out of combat, but as soon as we start drawing initiatives I start slapping people with wet noodles because a barrage of firebolts bounces off most enemies; though at least the fodder in that game went down easily.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

Storm Dragon - what with Acing, the *average* damage of 2d10 is 12, so you'll be at least Shaking them half the time, and Wounding them (1 or more Wounds) 25% of the time.

You could also whip up a device in 1 round that grants you Quickness, so you'd be attacking twice as often.

While your Draining Blade only does an average of 10, all it needs is a successful hit (past Parry) in order to drain their Vigor. Once their Vigor drops, it's a downward spiral to death.

You could whip up a device in 1 round that grants you Smite, so +2 to the blade's damage, +4 with a Raise.

Maybe SBM would let you re-work your character to be able to get Master of Magic? He was willing to let me make changes...

Altho, those mega-powers cost twice as much as the regular powers, so they're going use up your PP really quickly. I know Psionics have an Edge that grants them double PP, but I didn't see one for magic-based PC's. Anyone know of such a thing?


If their Toughness is 14, I need more than average damage to even shake them, though. I have a base 28% chance to hit 14 or higher, plus a 20% chance (10% independent per die) to Ace. I'm not 100% sure on the math from there, but I'm pretty positive it's significantly less than 50% to hit 14+, and less than 25% to hit 18+.

Mega Powers may cost double, but spending double the PPE for some effect is better than spending half that number twice for no effect.


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10
Storm Dragon wrote:
I know it, I just didn't know the fiddly extra bits like "demons take +8 damage from holy", which is what I meant when I said I don't know how to optimize the system; I don't have any idea where that's listed.

Like any game, it is usually a matter of having a few of the knowledge skills in order to have a shot at knowing the major highlights of the various baddies.

I'm on a night shift tonight. If you like, I can try to take a look and see if I can suggest any tweaks to help you out.


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

Sorry, I was going by their Fighting Toughness of 12, not their Ranged Toughness of 14.

By my simulations (which automatically include Acing), I get that you have a 34% chance of Shaking them, and a 16% chance of inflicting 1 or more Wounds with 2d10 vs. 14 Toughness. But, that doesn't include their Agility roll to avoid completely.

So, it sounds like using the Blade would be better, since all you have to do is get past Parry to potentially drain them, which automatically increases the odds that the next attack will damage them. Start by spending 2 rounds creating a Quickness gadget and a Smite gadget, and you should do pretty well for this fight.

Hopefully your character can be tweaked/modified to be even better in future fights!


Male Simvan Mind Melter; Wounds 0, Bennies 3/3; Parry 7, RATN 6, Toughness 13(8); Heal d4, Intim d6, Notice d6, Shooting d8, Psionics d12; 70 ISP

Storm Dragon, what are your thoughts about what's been suggested so far as to how to approach the current fight?

Has Shakti been able to suggest any tweaks?

SBM, what are your thoughts on allowing Ezekial to be re-worked?


I can give the suggestions a shot, but I'm not too enamored with the idea of needing to spend 2 rounds every single combat buffing just to hit a solid baseline.

...Or actually I think it's 4 rounds. One action to make the gadget, another to activate it for each. Dropped to 3 if I make Quickness first.


Savage Rifts RotRwT

If Ezekial wishes to rework his character, I am usually amenable to it, as long as something happens in story to back it up. Fighting with demons is usually a mind-altering experience, so I think it can work.


I'll think on what I should do. Maybe the realization that none of his tech actually works on these monsters unlocks something in his brain; breaking down that concept he has that magic is just technology.

I could make him a Ley-Line Walker with very few actual tweaks I think, which would give me a bit more of an edge. but maybe staying a Techno-Wizard is fine if I just change the powers known.


D-Bee Mystic: Size: 0, Parry 8, Pace 6, Toughness 14 (7), Charisma -2, Bennies: 6, PPE: 20/20, Staff PPE: 10/7, ISP: 10/10

I'd suggest you could get the most for the least by simply changing your main pre-made gadgets. 3-4 rounds becomes 1-2 if you make quickness one of your three known. Make the others combat utility spells like Smite and either Shield or Deflection. Raise/Lower Ability is another good one as it can both buff or debuff.

Other than that, see if you can reassign an edge to take Master of Magic. You might need to rearrange a few skill points, and or Stats, in order to make the prereqs, but it'll be worth it.

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