Kingmaker [PbP] (Inactive)

Game Master Jeff Przybylo

Ugh, take care of yourself, been there.

As Naralesh says, Magna, in game will want to be ruler, but she will end up as general, and taking power in a Coup d'état later.
Did I said that out loud?

Yikes, get well soon, Dregan!

Spymaster was the only one I had considered apart from Magister, so Magister it is for Natalesh.

You were here first, so if you'd rather take Spymaster then I can go for Royal Enforcer.

I like the idea of using the Stag Lord as a twist on a name, without actually mentioning why he's used in any of the official lore, a final FU to the guy.

I realised that the letters from the phrase "F U Stag Lord" can be rearranged as follows:

Ulfgostrad

Which is (a) a nice in-joke for those in the know; (b) a suitably Brevic-sounding name; and (c) tough enough sounding to be a deterrent (especially once you add a few umlauts): don't try invading us - the last army that did, got eaten

Any takers?

Down with food poisoning will be back with you as soon as I can.

I hope you get well soon.

No, Magister is my preferred role. Vosil is a natural Spymaster.

While that name is hilarious, I don't think the Stag Lord deserves any mention in the name of our glorious new nation. That might be a grand name for a fortress though.

I love naming things - these suggestions are awesome and I hope I can come up with some good ones myself soon.

Leveling up!
Level 4 Paladin (Holy Tactician)
+1 BAB
+1 Fortitude and Will Saves
+1 Lay on Hands / day (2d6)
Channel positive energy (2d6 DC 15) - consumes 2 of her lay on hands ability
1 Bonus Level 1 Spell (Bless)
HP +9 (7 +1 Con +1 Favored Class)
+1 Str
Skills: Ride, Use Magic Device

Leveling Up:

Level 4 Wizard
+1 BAB
+7 hp
Shift 10 ft.
+1 Will
+1 Int
+2 spells in spellbook
+1 first level spell per day
+1 2nd level spell per day
2 ranks linguistics (Aquan, Terran)
1 rank spellcraft
1 rank knowledge (Engineering)
2 ranks knowledge (Arcana)

I think that's everything. Still gotta pick my 2nd new spell - I can't learn mass dazzling blade until level five, so learning and improving on Talia's spell might take him a while.

In terms of role I think Edric could be Ruler, Grand Diplomat or Warden. He'd be a halfway decent diplomat, but not as good as Taalia would be. He'd certainly look good as ruler although I suspect Naralesh, Taalia and the other clever/pragmatic ones would be keeping him on the sensible side of rulership - he'd probably be too nice otherwise! He'd make a good warden as well, but that might not be as important as the other roles.

Loot: would like the +1 composite (+2) longbow. Nothing else appeals since Vosil claimed the AoNA. Will carry potions happily - I'm building into being team medic, will take Great and Ultimate Mercy eventually so potion carrying makes sense. :)

Also: HP 10 (7 + 2con + 1fc)

I don't think the Stag Lord deserves any mention in the name of our glorious new nation.

That, I understand completely. Back to the drawing board...

So - once the RP is completed, the list looks as follows:

Ruler: Charisma - Talia
Councillor: Charisma or Wisdom - VACANT
General: Charisma or Strength - Magna
Grand Diplomat: Charisma or Intelligence - Edric
High Priest: Charisma or Wisdom - VACANT
Magister: Charisma or Intelligence - Naralesh
Marshall: Dexterity or Wisdom - Dregan
Spymaster: Dexterity or Intelligence - Vosil
Treasurer: Intelligence or Wisdom - Kaalib
Warden: Constitution or Strength - VACANT

Kesten for Warden and Asha for High Priest; we need a Councillor. Shame none of those bandits felt like repenting...

What about one of the Levetons? Oleg doesn't seem to have much Cha, but Svetlana might have decent Cha or Wis. Gotta be better than the penalties for having it vacant (-2 Loyalty, and +1 Unrest every turn; plus no Holiday Edicts)!

Svetlana could work.

Alignment! I forgot alignment!

Sigh.

We have to pick an alignment for our new (nameless) kingdom. I think all of us are within one 'step' of Neutral Good, so I would suggest that as a good 'compromise' alignment; unless anyone objects strenuously, I will put the spreadsheet together on that basis.

Still gotta pick my 2nd new spell

Can I recommend See Invisibility? Put it on a scroll, and then you know EXACTLY where to drop your Glitterdust spell. My first ever D&D character was killed by a pixie* - some things stay with you...

*which the DM rolled as a wandering monster - and then had it attack us because 'it's a wandering monster; what else is it for?!' (This was well before the days of CR). My second ever D&D character was a Thief. In Tomb of Horrors. Never even got to that blasted statue. It's a wonder I stuck with the game at all.

But I digress...

I love naming things - these suggestions are awesome and I hope I can come up with some good ones myself soon.

I do like Ulfgostrad as the name of a fort or castle. It sounds quite imposing. What about naming the former Stag Lord's keep Ulfgostrad and the town that will grow around it Concord? That way we get to poke fun at the SL and have a nice name for a town to boot.

More thoughts on naming stuff:

Going with the theme of providing a place of safety within a turbulent neighborhood, what about a country name that has something to do with safety:

Refuge, or an eastern European/western Asian-sounding name for refuge: Strehë (Albanian), Utociste (Czech), Varjupaik (Estonian), Menedek (Hungarian), Rifugio (Italian), Stargeha (Kurdish), Refugium (Latin)

Or other synonyms/translations of synonyms for words like:

Haven, Sanctuary, Harborage, Harbor, Asylum, Sanctum, etc.

We have to pick an alignment for our new (nameless) kingdom. I think all of us are within one 'step' of Neutral Good, so I would suggest that as a good 'compromise' alignment; unless anyone objects strenuously, I will put the spreadsheet together on that basis.

NG fits well.

Svetlana could work.

Yep, I think she's the best choice that we've got.

OK, Loot, updated. Please start laying claim to things:

Potions:
- cure light wounds (2)
- cure moderate wounds (3)
- restoration, lesser (1)

My unasked for opinion: Front-liners grab the mods, Dregan and Nara take the clw's, one of the pallies hangs onto the restoration.

Armor:

- leather +1 (sell value 580 gp)
- MW studded leather (sell value 175)
- MW chainmail (sell value 150)
- Shield, heavy steel (sell value 10)
- leather (5 suits, sell value 25)

Weapons:

- MW longsword (sell value 157.5)
- Composite longbow +1 (+2 STR) (sell value 1337.5)
- Arrows (300, sell value 7.5)
- Rapier +1 (sell value 1160)
- Daggers (3, sell value 3)
- Longsword +1 (sell value 1157.5)
- Composite longbow (+2 STR) (sell value 100 gp)
- Magical beast bane arrows +1 (probably better kept?)
- club (no value)
- longbows (10, sell value 375)
- shortswords (5, sell value 25)
- spears (5, sell value 5)
- ranseur +1 (sell value 1155)

Misc:

- amulet of natural armor +1 (sell value 1000)
- knight and dragon toys (sell value 22.5)
- 50' rope (4)
- Chisels
- Hammers (2)
- Iron nails, tins (3)

Coin, Gems, Jewelry, etc.

- Coinage: 1780.2
- Gems: 216*
- Jewelry: 3180
- Trade Goods: 6850

* azurite (9), carnelian (80), hematite (13), obsidian (14), red garnet (100)

** Incudes misc jewelry (2900), pewter belt buckle depicting two succubus (30), turquoise earrings (130), silver charm bracelet (60), iron ring (?), silver holy symbol of Erastil (?, for Asha?), 3 Stag Lord Amulets (20 each).

Things claimed are striked out. There is of course some stuff I didn't give values to, assuming they'll be claimed (like the magical beast bane arrows). Right now, total sell value of things is: 16,959.2 gp

7 total shares = 2422.74 gp

I haven't heard from everyone yet, so that's not a final share number, but I wanted everyone to have an idea of where we're at.

More thoughts on naming stuff:

Going with the theme of providing a place of safety within a turbulent neighborhood, what about a country name that has something to do with safety:

Refuge, or an eastern European/western Asian-sounding name for refuge: Strehë (Albanian), Utociste (Czech), Varjupaik (Estonian), Menedek (Hungarian), Rifugio (Italian), Stargeha (Kurdish), Refugium (Latin)

Or other synonyms/translations of synonyms for words like:

Haven, Sanctuary, Harborage, Harbor, Asylum, Sanctum, etc.

I like these! Very much. (Apart from 'Asylum' which I think would encourage the wrong sort.) OK, so the capital city of Concord, incorporating Fortress Ulfgostrad, in the Kingdom of...

Menedek?
Stargehe?
Newharbour?
Farhaven?
Threshold (Heh, showing my age, now)

EDIT: quick question on loot allocation, as it's different for each game. If I claim the Amulet, how do I 'pay' for it? From the rest of my share, or what? What about the potion of CMW? Do I pay for that, as well? And if the beast bane arrows don't have a value, how does the person claiming them pay for them?

Actually, that's not a quick question, but hey.

Oh, and Talia: there's a post in the Gameplay thread that needs your attention ;-) Was not disappoint! Well played :-)

For the most part, Naralesh is going to want his share in coin, though he might pick up a masterwork longsword for convenience. He's going to want magical supplies - like a Headband of Vast Intellect +2, if he can afford it - and that would have to be ordered. He's going to ditch his shortbow for a masterwork longbow as well, though that will need to be purchased too.

For names, I'm thinking a lot about options. I think our name should communicate what the nation stands for - and for that, we need to decide what that is. It could be as simple as "rich farmland/woodlands" and call it something with the linguistic root "sylvan" like how Transylvania was named. Or it could be something to emphasize diversity and equality.

I wasn't taking into account the claimed items. I suppose their "sell price" should be calculated in? If that is taken into account:

Total value of items sold: 19,471.17 gp
Total share (7 splits): 2781.64

Talia gets 2606.67
Edric gets 1444.14
Vosil gets 1781.64
Naralesh gets 2624.14 if he takes the mw longsword

I haven't counted the weapons from Sneed's bounty, nor have I counted the Stag Lord's helmet. I think the easiest thing to do with the weapons is just have four of us each take a masterwork weapon of our choice*. Regarding the Stag Lord's helmet, who knows? It probably belongs at the bottom of Nettle's Crossing.

*unless we can request four weapons total and then resale the surplus, though that seems gamey to me. I suppose if Nara got his bow and then the fourth weapon (if no one else wants a MW weapon) was just something like a longsword, that's not too abusive).

There's also the iron ring found in the SL's stuff - probably not magical, but Nara should Detect Magic it just in case.

You have the limit of the magic as described. The SL's helmet is magical, but is also evil. Feel free to put it on to try it out...

The sell price of the helmet is 1750 gp.

As advertised, Kesten can arrange for 4 masterwork weapons from Rostov to be delivered to Oleg's.

Metagame Note: You are about to have a LONG 'off' time. Think 12 months while you explore/map the rest of the hexes on this map and start setting up and running the kingdom.

OK, fixed a couple of errors (too high a sell price for the studded leather, added in Edric's MW longbow to sell). Also added three of the masterwork weapons for Sneed's bounty, assuming that Nara is taking a MW longbow from it.

7 total shares = 2865.89 gp

Talia: 2625.89
Edric: 1528.39
Vosil: 1528.39
Nara (w/mw longsword and mw longbow): 2520.89

Since it is evil, I hate to say it, but we probably shouldn't sell the helmet.

Kaalib will take the helmet as his share if you guys will let him. Practical uses aside, if he wears it back home he'll have quite the amount of prestige, not to mention it kinda fits his personal style. Since he's neutral, it bothers him to wear something evil as it would to wear something good, so the alignment isn't really an issue for him.

Speaking of alignment, Kaalib would be more interested in a LG kingdom rather than a NG one. They are pretty rare, and it fits him a bit better than a straight up altruistic place. We have a couple of paladins who wouldn't mind it either. If you want to incorporate the Kobolds, LG would be an easier sell than NG as well, since they generally hang out in LE territory. They can at least agree on the one thing.

Now if we're planning on making Kaalib a Viceroy at some point, then NG does fit the rest of the group quite well, and we can make the kobold vassal kingdom LN, which would suit Kaalib just fine.

In the meantime the kobold will make a decent treasurer, he's actually pretty good with money. Dragons take pride in that.

Leveling up:

+1BAB
+6HP (26 total)
+1 Will
+1 1st level slot
+4 2nd level slots
Spell Known: Scorching Ray
Skills +4

That should be good.

I think Magna won't let the helmet get away from her sight. Maybe store it somewhere safe, but she won't let ANYONE use it, much less sell it.

That's fair.

Anyhow, since Kaalib will be taking a fair amount of time away from adventuring, I might have him do a little retraining if it's okay with OGGM. He can pick up Spell Specialization again at 5th level, so it's not that big of a deal.

I want him to have Craft Wondrous Item. He's willing to craft for his friends for a minimal fee. (He'll make any item at cost that he can make, with a 10gp per day charge for his time.)

Speaking of alignment, Kaalib would be more interested in a LG kingdom rather than a NG one. They are pretty rare, and it fits him a bit better than a straight up altruistic place. We have a couple of paladins who wouldn't mind it either.

My only issue with that is that Talia, as a Bard, can't be Lawful; and as a CG ruler I don't see her running an LG kingdom (I know by RAW it's fine, but it is still odd).

NG is where we all 'meet' - more actively concerned for others than Vosil, a bit less concerned about rules than Edric and Magna, a bit less worried about individual self-will than Talia; it's a compromise.

But like I said, I'm not interested in an alignment debate: if there's a consensus for another alignment, I'm good (neutral. Whatever) with that.

And I have no problem with Kaalib taking the helmet, BTW. Have fun with it - and if it does anything cool, don't keep it to yourself!

NG sounds good. For now ;)

What are the magical properties of the helmet that Naralesh could identify with his 25 on spellcraft? If he couldn't identify it with that, he'll try again every day until he gets a 31 on the check.

My only issue with that is that Talia, as a Bard, can't be Lawful; and as a CG ruler I don't see her running an LG kingdom (I know by RAW it's fine, but it is still odd).

So, Talia's a little complicated, alignment-wise. When I designed the character, I saw her as a satirist critic of the Surtovas, a radical darling of the dissident populace of Restov (a small populace, to be sure).

While she's definitely critical of the Surtovas, she's actually turned out to be a lot more responsible (and conservative) than I imagined her to be. What I've realized about her is that she fears the chaos of Galt a lot more than she fears the Surtovas*, and as she grows into a leadership role, Talia's coming to believe that order and structure and all that lawful stuff ain't so bad, after all (even if the main benefit of law and order in her eyes would be to keep herself in power).

She's probably NG (leaning towards TN) at this point. Heck, when she gets religious, she prays to Abadar more often than not. I could see her becoming LG or LN over the whole of the campaign (I think the ban on lawful alignments was a 3.5 thing, and bards are not restricted now in PF).

Still, Talia's very much of the opinion that government should directly benefit the people (her 2 arpents and a plow plan stems** in part from this belief), and laws for the sake of tradition, or laws that impede the ability of people to be their best people are bad laws and should be discarded. So she's probably not lawful yet.

Ahh, alignment. It makes the head hurt.

I like the idea of a NG country with a LN vassal in the kobolds - that could be pretty interesting.

* Of course, the Surtovas very well may have a hand in turning Brevoy into Galt, but that's another conversation.

** The other genesis of it being that it will be a lot easier to gain migrants with tasty carrots to dangle in front of desperate people. Our kingdom is going to need migrants, as it has little of a native population save a few score kobolds and a handful of trappers. (I'm also trying to rationalize the rather strange kingdom building population rules, where kingdoms can grow in leaps and bounds)

Ok back with the land of the vertical and catching up. Just a couple of comments on what I've read so far. I think we should run the kingdom building as extension of our characters, ie not worry much about how optimal the things we are building are and rather what our characters would think is important to have. (Some of characters may have a better idea of how communities work and thus the optimal building plan). With this in mind I have no problem in leaving a leadership position or two unfilled for now as I doubt Dregan or most of the rest of the party would understand the consequence of doing so.

The leadership positions need not be fixed, we could change king or queen every year or even have 4 year terms if you prefer. Personally I prefer a more tradional model.

Dregan has no interest in the treasure although curious about the helmet, but Magna's warnings would be enough to keep him away from it (is it possible to bless an item to make it not evil?)

I like Menedek as a name, along with the concord and Ulfgostrad.

I am not sure alignment is something we decide, at least not directly. It should based on our settlers and our actions as rulers. On that topic if Dregan has a lawman role he will be doing it in his style CG.

About blessing an item to make it non evil Magna will be very willing to hammer the evil out of it (and leave it unusable). ;)

Getting rid of the evil usually requires high level magic of the 'Hallow' variety. Probably simpler to have another one crafted that uses the same spells but wasn't crafted by an evil creature.

Kingdom alignment as NG is definitely good for Edric, he's very much on the neutral end of LG anyway. (A 3,1 under the numbered scale, whereas Magna seems to be more a 1,3) I agree with Vosil that even if we don't decide it it's the likely place for us to end up given the characters.

Lootwise I'll update the longbow and take a CMW and the LR potions, as team medic I'm happy to carry any sorts of things like that. :) Edric will be iffy about letting an 'evil' artifact out, if it could be cleansed first he'd be fine but as it is...

she's actually turned out to be a lot more responsible (and conservative) than I imagined her to be.

Heh. Responsibility will do that to a person. Or so I'm told.

(I think the ban on lawful alignments was a 3.5 thing, and bards are not restricted now in PF).

True dat. Well spotted.

(I'm also trying to rationalize the rather strange kingdom building population rules, where kingdoms can grow in leaps and bounds)

Heh.

Ahh, alignment. It makes the head hurt.

No argument there.

TBH, the alignment thing for a kingdom REALLY doesn't seem to be that big a deal. It's just something you have to decide on to get a few more bonuses.

I think we should run the kingdom building as extension of our characters, ie not worry much about how optimal the things we are building are and rather what our characters would think is important to have. (Some of characters may have a better idea of how communities work and thus the optimal building plan). With this in mind I have no problem in leaving a leadership position or two unfilled for now

The only difficulty with this is that kingdom-building - at least in the early stages - is HARD. It's supposed to reflect the fact that most adventurers don't try it. Even with the best decisions, it will be difficult to last more than a few turns if we don't also get good luck. The penalties for unfilled posts are crippling - even in-character, we'd realise something was wrong pretty damn quick and get it sorted.

As for alignment, according to RAW it is literally the first thing you decide on, before you even build your capital city - before you even choose leadership roles (see the kingdom rules).

I want him to have Craft Wondrous Item. He's willing to craft for his friends for a minimal fee. (He'll make any item at cost that he can make, with a 10gp per day charge for his time.)

Awesome; would definitely take you up on that!

She needs to get rid of Vosil.

She needs to get rid of Talia.
Torag demands it.

:-O

Wow. Great RP - but honestly, if you'd only waited 1 more round, the Stag Lord would have done the job for you... ;)

Just out of interest, what did Vosil do to end up on the shortlist?

The other genesis of it being that it will be a lot easier to gain migrants with tasty carrots to dangle in front of desperate people. Our kingdom is going to need migrants, as it has little of a native population save a few score kobolds and a handful of trappers.

On that basis, a nice name wouldn't hurt attract people, either.

Fairhaven?

Dregan wrote:

I think we should run the kingdom building as extension of our characters, ie not worry much about how optimal the things we are building are and rather what our characters would think is important to have. (Some of characters may have a better idea of how communities work and thus the optimal building plan). With this in mind I have no problem in leaving a leadership position or two unfilled for now

The only difficulty with this is that kingdom-building - at least in the early stages - is HARD. It's supposed to reflect the fact that most adventurers don't try it. Even with the best decisions, it will be difficult to last more than a few turns if we don't also get good luck. The penalties for unfilled posts are crippling - even in-character, we'd realise something was wrong pretty damn quick and get it sorted.

As for alignment, according to RAW it is literally the first thing you decide on, before you even build your capital city - before you even choose leadership roles (see the kingdom rules).

Ok thanks for background, not how I would have written the rules but hey that goes for lots of things.

All of the following are purely my opinion, just because I can't really keep myself out of this discussion, try as I might:

The alignment choice is more of a set of guidelines than hard-and-fast rules. NG builds a balance between laws and freedoms for the people. But Vosil is right, it is literally the first thing you have to decide. Talia's description of what she envisions takes me toward NG, as opposed to LG.

Talia: A sense of responsibility for others does not = Lawful. That's what Good is for.

When naming: keep in mind you won't just be 'Fairhaven' (to use one example), you'll be 'the Duchy of Fairhaven', 'Kingdom of Fairhaven', etc. May help with the choice somewhat.

The kingdom building rules take into account an abstraction of the influx of settlers, birth rates, etc. It's best not to try and break it down into a mathematical equation.

A strong word of CAUTION: every Kingdom campaign I've been a part of on these boards has become an 'all about me' fiasco because of one or two PCs who hijack the game. Whether due to their politics, or alignment issues, or just need to take over, the game has either lost people who got tired of it or it has fallen apart completely. I've personally refused offers to run 3 separate games after reading through the gameplay. Don't be that player. We have what appears to be a good group here, I'd hate to see it get derailed. I will do my best to let you guys play as you wish, but if it looks like things are getting rough, I WILL step in in-game and fix it. That's why I have NPCs as part of it.

Having played with the kingdom rules before - we are not leaving slots vacant.

As far as the helm goes: it is an evil item. It is beyond Naralesh's abilities, although it does appear to be fey in nature, and very powerful, and very dangerous.

...we tries it on, Precious! yes! We tries it on...<gollum!> <gollum!>

You could try it on, as I've said before. It would appear that Magna/Edric will not let Kaalib take it, so I'm assuming it remains locked up. Magna can destroy it in her forge, of course. I just need to know.

Speaking of Kaalib: what is going to be your 'official' status? I'm not sure where you are planning to participate, or how much. You can retrain if you wish.

All of the following are purely my opinion, just because I can't really keep myself out of this discussion, try as I might:

I'm glad you're in the discussion. It is absolutely necessary in my opinion.

Talia: A sense of responsibility for others does not = Lawful. That's what Good is for.

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. I agree completely.

When naming: keep in mind you won't just be 'Fairhaven' (to use one example), you'll be 'the Duchy of Fairhaven', 'Kingdom of Fairhaven', etc. May help with the choice somewhat.

Naming, I'm pretty fine with whatever. Fairhaven/Duchy of Fairhaven works for me. I'd like to hear some thoughts from those who haven't chimed in though.

The kingdom building rules take into account an abstraction of the influx of settlers, birth rates, etc. It's best not to try and break it down into a mathematical equation.

I'm hoping to give it some underpinnings of logic, rather than think in terms of mathmatics. The rules allow for some amazing growth from pretty much nothing at start. In purely narrative terms, this could be explained at the beginning as an influx of migrants looking for a new start and free land. I'm not interested in crunching the numbers to see how this would work - way too tedious for me!

Of course there will be birth rates to take into account as well, especially as the kingdom becomes established, but starting from pretty much a population of zero, the only logical way I see to give growth to the kingdom is through immigration.

But to stress, I'm only interested in this in a narrative sense, and am happy that the rules designers have this as an abstraction, rather than some fidgety rules, of which PF* has enough of.

A strong word of CAUTION: every Kingdom campaign I've been a part of on these boards has become an 'all about me' fiasco because of one or two PCs who hijack the game. Whether due to their politics, or alignment issues, or just need to take over, the game has either lost people who got tired of it or it has fallen apart completely. I've personally refused offers to run 3 separate games after reading through the gameplay. Don't be that player. We have what appears to be a good group here, I'd hate to see it get derailed. I will do my best to let you guys play as you wish, but if it looks like things are getting rough, I WILL step in in-game and fix it. That's why I have NPCs as part of it.

I like everyone here's players quite a bit, but we do not have the familiarity that comes with face-to-face gaming, and am glad you're willing to step in if need be (which I'm very confident won't be necessary).

I floated an idea a while back in the discussion thread, before the new folk arrived, in hopes to head any issues off at the pass. What we could do is allow whatever situation pops up to be decided by the player of the character entrusted to that role. Thus, it would ultimately be Edric's decision whether or not to offer a treaty to group or nation x, Magna's decision on how we fight them if we go to war with them, Nara's decision on what to do with dangerous magical items like the helm. etc. At the least, it would pare down debates to be just between a couple of player's roles that are directly involved in the outcome. Input would be welcome from other players, but ultimately the decisions on whatever issue crops up would be decided by the player(s) whose sphere of influence they control.

The king/queen would function as a rubber stamp in gameplay ("After conferring with our Grand Diplomat, it has been decided..."), and perhaps as a tie breaker if two players with vested interest in the decision can't reach an agreement (to go to war or to negotiate peace, for example, with the diplomat and the general not able to reach agreement).

*Kingdom-building! Now with more algebra!

Having played with the kingdom rules before - we are not leaving slots vacant.

Mechanically alas, the rules really punish you for not filling a position, forcing a bit of gaminess at the beginning.

What about Nat for councilor? He may not be the most optimum choice from a mechanical perspective, but he is a man of the people (can get much more "common" than a farmer after all) and that is a big part of the job description, which is essentially to liaison between the people and its leadership.

Of course, he could even be suboptimal (not very wise - he did decide to become a bandit, after all, and not very charismatic, though maybe he could grow into that a bit more with time). But he's fleshed out a bit more than Svetlana, and has had a "real-world" impact on our PCs and vice-versa.

Thanks Talia, for the clarifications and support. I used 'mathematical' a bit tongue-in-cheek, but we are on the same page about the rules.

My feelings on a monarchy: you live in a fantasy-medieval world, where the absolute rule is the norm. The governments of Andoran and Galt are considered radical for the setting, albeit for very different reasons. Most people on Golarion expect a monarch to lead, to make decisions, to RULE in other words. Anything less could be construed as a sign of weakness. That's not to say you discuss it behind the scenes, but the public face is the Duchess/Queen is in charge.

Here's an idea: I could start a separate 'game' called Fairhaven Kingdom building, or some such, as a way to keep it separate from the 'adventuring' side. Let me know.

Go see what's at the gate, I'm about solve your Councillor problems.

Thanks OGGM, it's good to know that we have your oversight.

I was going to suggest almost the opposite of Talia's approach, which is to try and build a player consensus that it's our kingdom (duchy. Thing.); hopefully being vested in it will keep people interested and prevent misbehaving.

The difficulty I envisage e.g. with the other approach is the sheer amount of time it takes to PbP: negotiation with another country could take weeks of RL time, in which only the diplomat and the general are engaged, with everyone else on the sidelines.

If we might look at a historical model for inspiration, I'd suggest a 'Privy Council' approach: basically the non-ruler PCs (and NPCs!) all have a say, with the ruler then having to abide by the majority decision.

This was the model used successfully to constrain e.g. Henry VIII (of the many wives) from doing too many stupid things (no, really, all things considered he could have been much worse); Richelieu and Mazarin were likewise instrumental for the French version.

It basically lets all the players be as involved as they like, but nobody (including the ruler!) has it all their own way. The presence of NPCs on the council should also help keep things moving smoothly.

The difficulty I envisage e.g. with the other approach is the sheer amount of time it takes to PbP: negotiation with another country could take weeks of RL time, in which only the diplomat and the general are engaged, with everyone else on the sidelines.

This is why I suggested a separate game thread for these things.

It basically lets all the players be as involved as they like, but nobody (including the ruler!) has it all their own way. The presence of NPCs should also help keep things moving smoothly.

I would point out one more thing: it's not necessarily a bad thing for the ruler to get his/her way. 1) you did sign up for a game creating a kingdom, this was a very real possibility. 2) its makes for some good RP as the players try to influence the ruler, then the backstage things that go on when a decision is reached. 3) I don't think we have a group that would abuse this anyway.

That's all my 2 cents. I will go with the direction you guys want to go.

I'm open to the idea of a separate gameplay thread. It's still the same game - but keeping the two separate seems a great way to organize things.

I also strongly feel we should have a monarch/duchess/singular "ruler" form of government. We should probably wait before crowning Talia queen, because it's a little silly to be the queen of ten guards, two merchants, and one and a half forts - besides, an official coronation sounds like a fantastic way to celebrate achieving some kind of kingdom milestone.

Sidenote: I very much am interested in the Mass Combat rules, and I really hope we get to use them.

Unrelated note: If the Stag's Helm really is a "generically evil macguffin" - destroy it. This seems much, much more severe than a simple unholy longsword, and it's a 17th-level-or-higher magic item if Naralesh can't identify it. It's too strong and too dangerous to play with.

I would point out one more thing: it's not necessarily a bad thing for the ruler to get his/her way. 1) you did sign up for a game creating a kingdom, this was a very real possibility. 2) its makes for some good RP as the players try to influence the ruler, then the backstage things that go on when a decision is reached. 3) I don't think we have a group that would abuse this anyway.

and allows for things like Magna's coup :) all of which are good fun as long as no-one gets too uptight! :D

Dealing with the power issue - the ruler gives monarchical power out on occasions? So Taalia could empower Edric, as Grand Diplomat, to conclude treaties on her behalf, with his word carrying all her weight. That would streamline some issue and of course the ruler retains the ability to withdraw said empowerment when desired... Personally I'm not too fussed - unless Taalia turns into an autocratic monster then there should be plenty of opportunity for people to throw in opinions and no ruler in history has successfully ruled without a group of people around them to support them. So if the afore-mentioned monster does appear then the rest of us could remove her quite easily. :)

A separate thread may well be the thing for kingdom building. Things could get VERY cluttered otherwise.

That's all fine, and everyone appears to be saying sensible things.

From a metagaming perspective, I think the more opportunities for all players to get involved, the fewer problems there are likely to be with boredom/ dropout/disruption; if that means a certain suspension of true historical accuracy, I'll live.

EDIT

Unrelated note: If the Stag's Helm really is a "generically evil macguffin" - destroy it. This seems much, much more severe than a simple unholy longsword, and it's a 17th-level-or-higher magic item if Naralesh can't identify it. It's too strong and too dangerous to play with.

This this, 1000x this. To the fire!

If we have a ton of downtime as you mentioned, Naralesh might take the opportunity to visit family or a larger city - and pay a wizard for access to his spellbook so he can scribe spells cheaper than ordering scrolls at more than double the price.

I've often thought that Kingmaker would make for an unusual opportunity to create a multi-generational adventure - if you push the timetables out farther than the published books say, make kingdom turns represent years instead of months - you could have Book 1's adventures completed by one group of heroes, and have the plot of Book 2 played by their children (or the children of the humans - the token elf would stick around, haha).

...I should start a recruitment thread, after some research.

Speaking of Kaalib: what is going to be your 'official' status? I'm not sure where you are planning to participate, or how much. You can retrain if you wish.

Due to my crazy schedule, I'm just going to back out of adventuring for the time being. I'll put in my two cents in for kingdom building as well as fill up a slot since they need it. My real life stuff is such that I won't necessarily be able to post more than once a week, I've just had a couple of fairly easy days, but I'll not be available the rest of the weekend, and possibly not Monday or Tuesday either. So as far as officially, I'm not leaving. But I won't be able to do the day to day stuff necessary in the adventures without being botted, so I figure I'll just step back from that for now. In a while, if we have a big dungeon to do or something, maybe I'll jump back in. But for now, I just need to step back and reassess.

As far as kingdom building, the way we did it in my home game was that we split the work load. After the King decided what avenue of growth we wanted to focus on, one person rolled for stability, usually the warden, then we did economy rolls and budgets set by the treasurer, the Magister rolled for the magic items, the general built and maintained the armies, the spymaster and marshall worked together to do city planning (which buildings went where) while the councilor picked which buildings we would build according to the budget he was given.

Once we got it down, turns went really fast. When everyone is involved in their area, they even came up with names and positions of castle staff, army hierarchy and street names. We had a good time with it. As long as no one is too concerned about having it their own way, it's cool to section off things and have each person have control over part of it, and we can go from there.

“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”

I have to say, in this case, I am a gardener. I am enjoying the game very much, and letting Magna "grow" organically, instead of making her do whatever I want or think.

Why Vosil? Easy: He is a Szarni infiltrating the group, ready to create all kinds of havoc in the new lands.
Why Talia? Jealousy. She thought herself "annointed" by Torag to lead, to rule, and she finds herself a "second string" to the beautiful and charming human noble. Which she likes. A lot.
So... what do we do?
- Let her have a "catharsis" of sorts, trying to betray the group and realizing she is not able?
- Falling for Edric and letting him pull her from the Lawful-Stupid path? (Does he likes her woman short and stocky?)
- Giving her some external enemy to fight so she stops looking for trouble internally.
More ideas welcome.

There's certainly a lot of room for an Edric/Magna confrontation - either of the heart to heart variety or something a bit more fraught. Desna being a goddess of dreams and prophecy I'm planning to have Edric confront Magna at some point, although not until things get further along. If Magna came to him and asked for help then that's another avenue. Who knows - we might even garden some romance along the way ;)

Worst comes to worst I like the idea of Magna and Edric dueling up and down the throne room while he tries to convince her to back down amongst the clash of weapons on armor! :D

It's always acceptable for gardeners to prune back branches that grow in the wrong direction. Magna might need to come to the realization that Torag has different plans in mind for her - I don't recall what age she is but she comes off as a very youthful, headstrong, impulsive young woman. Naralesh even had some internal monologue to that effect in their very first meeting, realizing that while she has a good heart, the zealous young paladin has a lot of maturing to do.

I also think Magna will take very well to the role of military commander. Once she comes to the realization that the subtleties and the politics of ruling aren't quite what she imagined, and comes to undersfand just how much the budding kingdom needs her discipline in the military, she'll know that she has found the place Torag intended for her. No one else could handle that role as well as her.

I have thought in Magna asking Edric for her for her coup, and having him put some sense into her.
The idea of them having a heart-to-heart while fighting in front of the Throne sounds epic too.
Yes, she has to mature, and yes, the "end game" is for her to become the general, working in tandem with the other PC's.
Who has a good Sense Motive that can see her internal turmoil, and organize an intervention for her?
Maybe Talia herself... ummmm...

Maybe Talia herself... ummmm...

Talia's been pumping skill ranks into Sense Motive, but with that wisdom 8 she's just as likely to think things are totally resolved with Magna. I'm happy to play it however you'd like!

So... what do we do?

- Let her have a "catharsis" of sorts, trying to betray the group and realizing she is not able?
- Falling for Edric and letting him pull her from the Lawful-Stupid path? (Does he likes her woman short and stocky?)
- Giving her some external enemy to fight so she stops looking for trouble internally.
More ideas welcome.

I think option #3 is bound to happen regardless, but I really like the storytelling possibilities of #1 and #2.

and dozens of the covered version designed by the dwarven engineer Conestoga some years ago.

LOVE IT!

Just the faintest frown of disdain crosses his face before he sees you waiting. His face becomes a mask of neutrality as he rides up, and with practiced ease he drops from the saddle in front of you.

Oh boy...