I lied.
More 2 cents:
To Kaalib, thanks, that helps me quite a bit.
To Edric's point about distribution of power: that's EXACTLY what the feudal system does. The monarch can, and should dole out power as she sees fit. In the end, though she typically has final say.
About The Helm: I'm trying to build it up as a Thing That Should Not Be Known. RP accordingly.
About titles: pick however you like, the original KB rules in the AP had specific requirements for how big you had to be in order to call yourself a Duchy, etc. UC eliminates that, so call yourself whatever you want. But: it does seem to be more flavorful if you start with 'County of', then go to 'Duchy of', and so on as you grow. Or at least something like that.
Kaalib's home method is exactly how we did it in my home game. One player went so far as to min/max build order to gain the maximum benefits from bonuses etc. Everyone can roll for their part, its outline in the UC rules. As usual, we will remain flexible.
I will start a new thread then, BUT, I have to have a name to do so...let's pick. Someone put up a vote!
The birth of the FederationKingdom of the Greenbelt.
About the helm, I was thinking is keeping it as a "relic" of the new Kingdom. A trophy.
I am, so far, going for the "Magna talks to Edric to try to make him join the coup" idea...
“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”I have to say, in this case, I am a gardener. I am enjoying the game very much, and letting Magna "grow" organically, instead of making her do whatever I want or think.
But I fear she is sliding into the Lawful-Stupid kind of Paladin.
No, I don't plan to let her "get rid" of other characters, I only need a way to prevent it.
Why Vosil? Easy: He is a Szarni infiltrating the group, ready to create all kinds of havoc in the new lands.
Why Talia? Jealousy. She thought herself "annointed" by Torag to lead, to rule, and she finds herself a "second string" to the beautiful and charming human noble. Which she likes. A lot.
So... what do we do?
- Let her have a "catharsis" of sorts, trying to betray the group and realizing she is not able?
- Falling for Edric and letting him pull her from the Lawful-Stupid path? (Does he likes her woman short and stocky?)
- Giving her some external enemy to fight so she stops looking for trouble internally.
More ideas welcome.
Awww, all the good posts happen when I'm away! This is AWESOME.
Just FYI, in my view, if you're worried about whether you're playing Lawful Stupid, you aren't. It's the ones who are convinced there's no problem - or worse, that the other players are the problem - who you need to avoid.
One thought: in less than 70 years (much less, probably), Vosil and Talia, being human, will be dead. As a dwarf, Magna will just be getting started. There's nothing to prevent her acting all nice and supportive while she puts her long-term plans into motion: after all, who'd expect to be betrayed by a paladin?!
To Edric's point about distribution of power: that's EXACTLY what the feudal system does. The monarch can, and should dole out power as she sees fit. In the end, though she typically has final say.
One very quick point about history/the feudal system and then I'll shut up (about this, I mean. Not shut up generally. You don't get that lucky).
Don't get too tied up with 'historical accuracy' - far too much of what we think of as the feudal system or the autocratic rule of kings was brought to us by Hollywood, where the (usually English) king is a heartless, unstoppable, tyrant. In reality, even before 1215, the 'divine right of kings' was largely honoured only in theory. Until the late medieval period, France was largely ruled by its barons, with the king having power only to make them do what they already wanted to do; in England, after about 1215 the central power of the monarchy only genuinely existed for a comparatively brief time - from the time of Henry VII (who was frankly a hugely successful and underrated king, unlike his son, Henry VIII) in 1485 until the late 1600's, when Charles I was executed in the English civil war. And even that war wasn't about whether the king had absolute right to rule, but about parliamentary sovereignty.
For most of the medievalist/Renaissance period, kings ruled by consensus with their nobility rather than by absolute fiat. Of course, there were exceptions; like Tsarist Russia for example - but the European model worked for centuries because it gave some power to other people (not the commoners of course - they were sh*t out of luck until the late 19th century) who weren't the king.
Second point (I lied about there being only one point): if it's a choice between 'authentic' and keeping everyone involved and interested, it's not really a choice.
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And by then, Naralesh will be approaching his youthful prime. It would be interesting to see the humans' children as political players in an environment watched over by two still-living veterans of the Battle of Concord.
As for the helm - while I am curious what OGGM has in store, Naralesh is going to push HARD for the destruction of any evil-emanating artifact too powerful and mysterious for him to understand.
"CAST IT INTO THE FIRE! DESTROY IT!"
Hell, Naralesh even looks like Elrond.
One thought: in less than 70 years (much less, probably), Vosil and Talia, being human, will be dead. As a dwarf, Magna will just be getting started. There's nothing to prevent her acting all nice and supportive while she puts her long-term plans into motion: after all, who'd expect to be betrayed by a paladin?!
Very good point.
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As for the helm - while I am curious what OGGM has in store, Naralesh is going to push HARD for the destruction of any evil-emanating artifact too powerful and mysterious for him to understand.
"CAST IT INTO THE FIRE! DESTROY IT!"
Hell, Naralesh even looks like Elrond.
Ha! Brilliant.
I was there when the strength of Men failed...
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To Edric's point about distribution of power: that's EXACTLY what the feudal system does. The monarch can, and should dole out power as she sees fit. In the end, though she typically has final say.One very quick point about history/the feudal system and then I'll shut up (about this, I mean. Not shut up generally. You don't get that lucky).
Don't get too tied up with 'historical accuracy' - far too much of what we think of as the feudal system or the autocratic rule of kings was brought to us by Hollywood, where the (usually English) king is a heartless, unstoppable, tyrant. In reality, even before 1215, the 'divine right of kings' was largely honoured only in theory. Until the late medieval period, France was largely ruled by its barons, with the king having power only to make them do what they already wanted to do; in England, after about 1215 the central power of the monarchy only genuinely existed for a comparatively brief time - from the time of Henry VII (who was frankly a hugely successful and underrated king, unlike his son, Henry VIII) in 1485 until the late 1600's, when Charles I was executed in the English civil war. And even that war wasn't about whether the king had absolute right to rule, but about parliamentary sovereignty.
For most of the medievalist/Renaissance period, kings ruled by consensus with their nobility rather than by absolute fiat. Of course, there were exceptions; like Tsarist Russia for example - but the European model worked for centuries because it gave some power to other people (not the commoners of course - they were sh*t out of luck until the late 19th century) who weren't the king.
Second point (I lied about there being only one point): if it's a choice between 'authentic' and keeping everyone involved and interested, it's not really a choice.
Have you studied Medieval history by any chance Vosil? We should debate it sometime, if only it wouldn't clutter up the thread!
Ha - no, there's just too much of it to study! I focussed on the Hanseatic League; the rest I just picked up as a European who gets fed up with Hollywood ****ing everything up.
Drop me a PM if you want to take it off-thread?
Right, Kingdom spreadsheet is almost ready - I'm adding it into the spreadsheet we're already using.
Couple of points:
1. The sheet will have 2 tabs: Summary; and Details. The information in the Summary tab will be derived from the Details tab. The presentation within the Details tab is going to be a hot mess because GoogleDocs doesn't have the same flexibility as Excel, but you won't need to look at it - the specifics will all be in the Summary tab. Please, please, don't touch. If you think an edit is needed, let me know.
2. I'm using Fairhaven as the generic name just to fill in the blank. It's not set in stone. OGGM: I like the idea of scaling from duchy or whatever up to kingdom based on hex numbers; can you let me have the details please? It's not in UC.
3. I'm strongly minded not to use the settlement modifiers (Corruption, Crime, Law, Lore, etc) - this is a Kingdom-building game, and the settlement details just don't add anything, IMO. There is such a thing as too many numbers to keep track of!
4. I'm also minded not to use the Fame/Infamy optional rules: Dregan made the point that our roleplay and choices should have an effect, and I agree that what we do - our characters' behaviour - should affect our fame/notoriety much more than some numbers on a spreadsheet.
5. I do want to use the Deities & Holy Sites optional rules: a temple to Erastil should have a different impact from a temple to Desna; and both should have a different impact from a temple to Asmodeus.
6. Questions/comments/queries are welcome!
1) In no way do I want an 'authentic' feudal system, but you miss my point: the queen doles out the power she can get away with - its the people that look up to the king as a near-mythical figure. The modern view of the old monarchies is somewhat skewed by today's standards. I don't follow the Hollywood interpretation. I did state that this is a fantasy medieval state, or I thought I did.
2) No settlement mods: we will be busy enough.
3) No Fame/Infamy, see above.
4) I have to read these, but am inclined to say no for the same reasons, will review. [edit:] just read them, easy enough to build into the spreadsheet. I forgot those were in there.
'For two and half thousand years, it lay quiet...until it ensnared a new bearer...'
One thought: in less than 70 years (much less, probably), Vosil and Talia, being human, will be dead. As a dwarf, Magna will just be getting started. There's nothing to prevent her acting all nice and supportive while she puts her long-term plans into motion: after all, who'd expect to be betrayed by a paladin?!Very good point.
Even better, a question: How exactly is a Lawful paladin gong to justify the deposition of a rightfully chosen ruler? One who is good by the way? Based on the fact that you THOUGHT you were anointed to rule? I'd rethink that. Sounds LN at best, LE at worst.
Right now Magna fears Talia has become the de-facto leader of the group, and that she is not "good enough" (read: Lawful Good enough). If she don't act now the basis for the new land will be set by her, Vosil, and others, so she is still on time to make sure the new lands start with the correct leadership (Again: Lawful Good).
you miss my point: the queen doles out the power she can get away with - its the people that look up to the king as a near-mythical figure. The modern view of the old monarchies is somewhat skewed by today's standards. I don't follow the Hollywood interpretation. I did state that this is a fantasy medieval state, or I thought I did.
Apolgies - getting bogged down in these sorts of details is something of an occupational hazard... As I said before, I think we're all on the same page. Hugely looking forward to building a kingdom with you all!
Right now Magna fears Talia has become the de-facto leader of the group, and that she is not "good enough" (read: Lawful Good enough). If she don't act now the basis for the new land will be set by her, Vosil, and others, so she is still on time to make sure the new lands start with the correct leadership (Again: Lawful Good).
Re-reading the (seriously hardcore!) paladin code that Magna follows:
Paladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
- My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
- I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
- I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
- Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
You could, if you were so inclined, make the argument that a literal interpretation of this code means that working against non-dwarves is not an Evil act under almost any circumstances. Personally, I'm not convinced; I agree with OGGM's interpretation that - objectively - Magna's planned course of action is LN/LE. But I can see why a headstrong paladin might see it as a true ("necessary" - which is a terrifying word to see in a paladin's code!) manifestation of Torag's divine will; and would need something significant to happen to persuade her otherwise.
Whether or not Torag would approve of her plan is another matter, of course! But then Magna wouldn't be the first paladin to misunderstand their deity's wishes.
Dregan: you're currently having a RL adventure that outstrips anything written here! Although I appreciate that with lack of sleep, nappies, screaming and suchlike you might not see it that way right now... :-)
Fear not, we will find a way to put Magna in the side of good.
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Kingdom building thread here.
You have just received 50 BP from Rostland in your wagon train. See the new thread for all the kingdom building.
It just got all kinds of Game of Thrones all up in here! I take it we can expect to start having party members die off at a rate of one per week now? :P
This is exciting.
It just got all kinds of Game of Thrones all up in here! I take it we can expect to start having party members die off at a rate of one per week now? :P
This is exciting.
Yeah, I'm now thinking that when OGGM said this:
Go see what's at the gate, I'm about solve your Councillor problems.
He missed out "...by giving you new and improved problems!"
Random Thoughts:
The name "Stag's End" popped into my head for something at Fort Ulgofstrahd (so unpronounceable). Perhaps a monument of some kind.
I would like to design a crest for our nation - we should do some research into heraldry and figure out various symbols and colors and what they represent. If the entire party were represented in the crest, that would be awesome.
Naralesh is represented by a white fox with a star on its head (just like Nora, his familiar).
Magna by a hammer or axe - potentially the actual symbol of Torag.
Kaalib by a dragon.
Edric by a star or by the holy symbol of Desna.
Talia by the symbol of her house? I don't have my players guide to see if there's an animal or symbol that would work.
For Vosil, I assumed a compass, to represent the Pathfinders - but if he just quit... I don't know. Thoughts?
For Dregan, I have no ideas. What symbol represents him?
The relevant text:
Their crest is a white dragon with a helmet embedded in its chest.
Would work well for Kaalib and Talia to have a merged crest, by chance. A half-white, half-black dragon?
This is a cool idea, Naralesh.
I feel like merging the symbols would imply Kaalib and Talia's "houses" had joined as one, so maybe we should avoid implying anything. I do think that Khavortorov's symbol could be more central than the others (since she's the Ruler), and that the dragon will have a crown above its head once she's actually crowned as queen.
Hey, good points. I was just trying to think in terms of having two dragons on a crest. There is certainly an implication that could be drawn from that, ha!
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I love the "Stag's End" name!
About the crest, it would be an anvil for Magna. Nice idea!
Random Thoughts:
The name "Stag's End" popped into my head for something at Fort Ulgofstrahd (so unpronounceable). Perhaps a monument of some kind.I would like to design a crest for our nation - we should do some research into heraldry and figure out various symbols and colors and what they represent. If the entire party were represented in the crest, that would be awesome.
Naralesh is represented by a white fox with a star on its head (just like Nora, his familiar).
Magna by a hammer or axe - potentially the actual symbol of Torag.
Kaalib by a dragon.
Edric by a star or by the holy symbol of Desna.
Talia by the symbol of her house? I don't have my players guide to see if there's an animal or symbol that would work.For Vosil, I assumed a compass, to represent the Pathfinders - but if he just quit... I don't know. Thoughts?
For Dregan, I have no ideas. What symbol represents him?
You most likely won't be able to represent each individual as you were, you're going to have to pick something that represents you as you are now.
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Heh. A compass would suggest support/approval of the Pathfinders, which is the very thing Vosil's trying to avoid. Don't suggest it to him in-character while he's drinking, please :-)
For as he is now, either a star of Desna or a Harrow card (the Peacock).
Failing that, and going in a completely different direction, we could have a coat of arms that's two crossed dead bandits, on a mound of dead bandits.
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<---- Not dead yet.
Also, although Talia was not necessarily on Kaalib's radar, he'd be willing to give it shot. I could switch my 2nd level spell for Alter Self and we'd even probably get her pregnant and pop an heir in the next year.
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You most likely won't be able to represent each individual as you were, you're going to have to pick something that represents you as you are now.
So the fox should have an eyepatch, then. :P
Also, although Talia was not necessarily on Kaalib's radar, he'd be willing to give it shot. I could switch my 2nd level spell for Alter Self and we'd even probably get her pregnant and pop an heir in the next year.
:S
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For Dregan a buck rampant.
However I suggest separate crests, it's going to get very cluttered with all in one.
I feel like I have to give it a try and see if I can't make something fit them all together. Maybe a banner across the top of the crest with each (small) symbol emblazed along it, with the main crest feating symbols which represent our shared values.
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priv·y
ˈprivē/Submit
adjective
1.
sharing in the knowledge of (something secret or private).
"he was no longer privy to her innermost thoughts"
synonyms: in the know about, acquainted with, in on, informed of, advised of, apprised of; More
noun
1.
a toilet located in a small shed outside a house or other building; an outhouse.
2.
LAW
a person having a part or interest in any action, matter, or thing.
We don't make these things up.
I'd always thought that the definition of "privy" as a toilet was British, actually. Interesting.
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I'd always thought that the definition of "privy" as a toilet was British, actually. Interesting.
Ah, but so is the tradition of blaming Americans for things that we Europeans happen to disapprove of, irrespective of whether you're responsible or not...
I believe the American version is 'Thanks, Obama!' - although my sources are conflicted on this linguistic point.
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We have got to settle on a name! Talia's put us on the spot!
"Fairhaven" has grown on me. It's got a nice double meaning and represents what we hope for our settlers.
All in favor of founding the Viscounty of Fairhaven?
Yay! Another convert for the faithful!
If you wanted to "authentify" it (which is definitely a word, absolutely), we could go for Freihafen/Frijhaven ("fair" in the sense of "free" or "just"); or Schonhafen ("fair" in the sense of "beautiful," like a fair maiden)
Fairhaven works for me. Freihafen does as well.
+1 Fairhaven
Not merely a majority, but a plurality! So it is recorded; so let it be.
Fairhaven is good
Agreed, Fairhaven
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Sorry, couldnt help myself
*arched eyebrow*
So. Is Kesten the lone holdout, then?
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"Nein, Herr Comarenza. Ich mochte Schoenhafen."
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Okay, map is updated. I went ahead and outlined our second hex (all Fairhaven's hexes are outlined in yellow), though I didn't add any improvements yet. In the text above the map, all our kingdom's hexes are also highlighted in yellow. Stuff is labeled. Bridges and river fords are marked. I went ahead and filled in the bottom row since OGGM stated that they could be explored at our leisure.
I think when we get to the next map, I'm going to knit a new map to this one using photoshop.
Kaalib, IIRC, you asked about how to read the map? Basically, you go from the letter down at a right-diagonal (so, Concord City is in C6, our second hex is D5). You can double check things by the text grid above the map as well.
:-O
That is all kinds of awesome!
The months of kingdom building can be spent patrolling, exploring what's left of the map from the first book, etc. Generally you have 3 weeks of the month to do those things, as long as everyone is together for one week of the month, which has defaulted to the last(ish) week of each month.
Vosil will come along, just to see what's over the next hill; but yeah, you need Dregan if you want to avoid getting lost!
Dregan will happily take you hunting and we can map a bit while we are doing so. I really think we should explore the hexes around concord before some kid wanders into a owlbear cave (: