Barmy in Sigil: A Planescape Campaign

Game Master Divinitus

my jedi/sith should fall somewhere in the middle. Wasn't able to finish at work today. Will tomorrow for sure. I went with no template and no monster though so I have a few scores bellow 20 one is an 8 :)

... Okay, I just came across the Shadow-Traced template. Which is a CR+2 template that grants you the ability to create three copies of yourself as an immediate action. Through, said copies have 50% of your health and make all magic 50% real.

If I take teamwork feats, and use this template, they count as allies having that teamwork feat, right? If so, that leaves me really divided... I was looking into shadow templates in order to make my Shadow Bushi... but this Shadow Trace looks like it could play AMAZINGLY with the teamwork build I have set up already... I'm not going to drop that one, but I might of just found a third build... someone focusing on working with himself. How badass would that be?!

Of course. It IS limited in the fact that you can only create these Shadow Traces once per day. So, whilst it is a very powerful ability for a CR+2 Template, it doesn't have a lot of staying power all on its own.

That template looks even more powerful than quickling for action economy, essentially quadrupling your casting. It also grants mind-affecting immunity, which can be pretty hard to get. Of course it is also kind of a double edged sword since it stop moral bonuses as well. Between Rage, Aegis, Alpha's Roar and Lord of the Pridelands (as well as Legendary Beauty II) that's a lot of bonuses given up (except for rage those bonuses will go to the entire party, though I imagine I'm probably not the only one picking those ones up).

Yeaaaaaah, most templates really are meant mainly for NPCs, rather than PCs. XD

@Fury: You can create the copies at-will, you're just a bit weaker if they're destroyed. So... not horrible staying power, at least. XD

Ok, now that GM has posted again (and answered my question, thanks), time to get to work again on Geina

Speaking of questions for the GM: one of the items I had planned on getting was a tireless wayfinder. I wanted to make sure that was OK, since wayfinders are pretty Golarian-specific. It seems like something that could be found on Athas or Eberron.

Yeah. The Shadow Template takes a bit of re-reading to get it all down. On the one hand, you don't gain mind-affecting immunity. In fact, you lose any you had, and its replaced by letting you reroll against a failed effect 1 turn afterwards.

On the other hand. Rendal is right in that the copy creation is at-will and not once per day. That only applies if their all destroyed, which even with only having half my health. Could be rather... difficult.

Honestly, I love the template and the flavour, but CR+2 for its copying effect. It is too powerful. Personally, I think the CR should be bumped up, AND have it so that your shadow traces cannot cast spells or using psionic powers themselves.

I really want to use this template to create a character who is a one-man squad, and the fluff behind it works really well for one character I'm working on right now. Buuuut, CR+2 for an ability like that? Well to much.

Of course if the CR is bumped up, I'll likely have to go hunting round for a different creature to use. Was really liking the story I was creating for my Augemented Shadow-Traced Cervapral Agathion... but I should wait for DM ruling before I go ahead with that character, shouldn't I?

I'm the opposite. I don't want to be a one-character squad unless I'm playing a solo game. XD Pathfinder's a cooperative RPG, after all, and even with tristalt I think it's good to try and fill certain roles. Eir's an all-rounder designed to do whatever's needed at the moment, while Mariel's an illusionist dealing with buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control.

Geina is pretty melee-focused, with ways of dealing with ranged combat and a few slas, and decent array of skills for dealing with non-combat scenarios, but she's definitely not a one-woman show.

Well, when I said 'one-man squad', I didn't mean someone who could do everything themselves persay. But someone who operates as a one-man squad. Someone who is very apt in fighting and taking on threats working with others. And who do you work better with than yourself?

Honestly, its more than its a new way of playing with teamwork feats. There seems to be three ways of using them currently. Either working with your party (often with classes that share teamwork feats), working with an animal companion, or working by yourself. But, this? Creating your own team in order to utilize teamwork feats?

Oh the possibilities! Not only can it make the Wallace the Whirlwind Build absolutely insane (whiiiiich is why I'm NOT going to be doing that. Plus, I already have my Wallace the Whirlwind character), but you can do stuff like taking Paired Opportunists and Friendly Fire! Have one guy standing at the back, firing into the fray, and those at the front getting AoO's from those attacks! Use the Betrayal Feats on the traces in order to protect the main dude! Have two ranged characters at the back, using Target of Opportunity to rain death on the enemies. Oh! Oh! I know! Use the new Overwatch Style and Weapon Training: Ranged to really hinder your enemies movements whilst setting you up attacks and effects!

... Sorry, little hyped.

There is no reduction in combat damage, so it is straight x3 multiplier once per round (quadruple damage first round, 7x damage next round, 10x damage third round and so on). It would quickly outclass any other martial characters. It does sound really cool though and it is operating on a different axis than my character (even if it is the same as most others).

As I've said before my character is pretty focused on spellcasting, primarily offensive, with some maneuvers (and extended defense) to protect herself and the team with a bit of debuffing thrown in (when she can't use her spells straight up). Out of combat there are a bunch of spells for utility in addition to quite a lot of skills as well.

Yeah, okay, okay. I get it.

I'll drop it. If Animal Lord is frowned on, then this is an absolute no no, I get it. I understand, just... such a cool character concept and power... just, too powerful I suppose.

Definitely too powerful to just tack onto a character anyway.

So. With that out of the way. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good CR 7 monster to play as? I'm currently using the Cervapral Agathion, but I have some more CR to play with currently. I suppose I could always use the other levels for class levels (it what I'll have to do eventually anyway), but I want to see what is out there first.

Do you mean good as in, Good? Or what?

What kind of things are you looking for?
SLA's? Special attacks? Poison? Big natural attacks?
Any specific themes, types you want (outsider, monstrous humanoid, etc.)?

Yeah, okay, okay. I get it.

I'll drop it. If Animal Lord is frowned on, then this is an absolute no no, I get it. I understand, just... such a cool character concept and power... just, too powerful I suppose.

Definitely too powerful to just tack onto a character anyway.

So. With that out of the way. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good CR 7 monster to play as? I'm currently using the Cervapral Agathion, but I have some more CR to play with currently. I suppose I could always use the other levels for class levels (it what I'll have to do eventually anyway), but I want to see what is out there first.

The GM might just put a restriction on it that it can only be used if you don't have any copies out already. Maybe even limit the amount of copies. If you like the flavor of it, just roll with it and let Divinitus tone it down if it is needed.

Removed some posts and responses. If you're not a part of this campaign, and aren't the GM, please dial back on the "you're doing it wrong" style of posts—they aren't helpful.

Do you mean good as in, Good? Or what?

What kind of things are you looking for?
SLA's? Special attacks? Poison? Big natural attacks?
Any specific themes, types you want (outsider, monstrous humanoid, etc.)?

Mainly ability scores honestly. Dex & Int are the main two, with Con & Cha coming next.

That being said, Special Qualities as well as Natural Attacks are helpful as well. Having two Natural Attacks at least would be very much appreciated so I can swap them out for integrated melee weapons.

The GM might just put a restriction on it that it can only be used if you don't have any copies out already. Maybe even limit the amount of copies. If you like the flavor of it, just roll with it and let Divinitus tone it down if it is needed.

... I completely missed the fact that you can actually keep making 3 a turn (as long as you don't use a swift action at all), I always thought you where limited to just 3.

I think you are supposed to be limited to 3 copies even if it isn't actually spelled out.

Yeah. Being able to make more and more copies each turn is just pure insanity. Its ridiculously strong already, but hopefully the GM will allow it pending nerfs/modifications...

...I suppose you could read the line as saying you can create "three" copies... and that's it, no more, since it doesn't actually say "three each round". XD

That's the way I read it, and that's the way I'm sticking to it. Even without DM Fiat. I am NOT making any more than three copies. Because that's just ridiculous!

... You know, with 3PP being allowed so much. I wonder if I'll be able to request some stuff from Steelforge or Soulknife Augumented... especially Steelforge's Nonmagical Item Enhancements.

Um..

I don't think Shadow-Traced is nearly as powerful as you make it out to be.

Sure, 3 duplicates is freakin sweet, but they have half your HP. Let's say you manage to get 200hp yourself, thus your traces have 100.

That's incredibly easy to destroy. Without any bonuses whatsoever(No magic, class features or buffs, just my stat mod), I deal +10 damage per hit.

A maximized fireball is 60 damage, which is also the *average* for a delayed blast fireball.

I don't even wanna consider a damage focused fighter or barbarian type build.

Once all three are destroyed, they can not be created for 24 hrs.

Owen Stephens(one of the main designers on the book) said the cap is 3 copies. So, that's not an issue.

Fury, I dunno exactly what you're going for but when *I* was considering monstrous races that seemed interesting for a plane-hopping game, I thought a type of genie might be interesting: they have interesting personality choice to play (to my tastes, of course), they fit the game's plane-hopping theme, and they are mechanically fun too. Perhaps a Marid or Djinn might fit your bill.

Or be another gnome, like Clara. You can never have too many plane-hopping gnomes.

Speaking of planes, I've been collecting information from a few different sources and tying it together into one compendium. It's kind of fun, reading up on all these places people could go. XD

You plan on sharing said information Red?

It's pretty much like these maps I made. XD But with details for each realm.

I was just hoping to give everyone a heads up. This guy has made many fake threads for what I only guess is fun. Check out his other aliases for evidence. I suggest you go looking for another game. Sorry for being a bummer.

It's pretty much like these maps I made. XD But with details for each realm.

The pic on the right of the second link is interesting, never heard of those places, I do not think.

@loc: Thank you for the heads up - though most of us are quite aware of this, and have already talked it over. ^^

@Monkeygod: Some of them are from Pathfinder's The Great Beyond book. Others are from a different d20 sourcebook, and not explicitly Pathfinder... but quite usable all the same. XD And hey, what fun is a plane-hopping game if you're already familiar with everywhere you visit?

ooh, I got inspired to create an inspiring character. She goes by the Empress and she's looking to become a god.

Note: she technically had leadership, but she's not taking her worshipers along.

I finally got my submission together! (Well at least the crunch, should have his backstory done by tomorrow.)

Presenting Karalgan Mindshard, an Awakened Ceratosaurus Psychic Vampire Undead Lord Unchained Barbarian//True Xenotheurgist. He is primarily a Front-liner focusing on damage and killing things fast, with some supplementary "magic" and a descent skill set.

I... don't know how to respond to that. XD Sounds pretty barmy even by Sigil standards, though.

I'm shocked to find a nymph charisma caster with a monk dip in a monstrous gestalt game.

Could be an undead ghost nymph really, much more synergistic :P
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On another topic, I got the impression back on the first page when asked not to go over board (with poison, but a very nasty poison truth to be told :P) and keep the DC around ~27-29 that this was some sort of guideline for our aimed power level.

Did I misunderstand that completely or have the design parameters changed?

Could be an undead ghost nymph really, much more synergistic :P

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On another topic, I got the impression back on the first page when asked not to go over board (with poison, but a very nasty poison truth to be told :P) and keep the DC around ~27-29 that this was some sort of guideline for our aimed power level.

Did I misunderstand that completely or have the design parameters changed?

Honestly man, I have no idea. Mostly I'm just being a grumpy old man that seems the same builds repeated time and again in these recruitment purely because they provide unparalleled power. Nymph sorceresses / oracles, succubi blackguards / sorceresses, a staggering array of people that take one level of monk or two of paladin, etc.

Don't take it personally as others have.

If you were really asking me, I'd actually put money on the game not getting off the ground.

To be fair you see alot more human and half-elf sorcerers then dwarwen ones too in ordinary recruitments. It's natural to go for options that work well, just more pronounced in high level and gestalt games I guess. And it's really easy to get blinded too, I know I was tempted to do some really silly things with my submission.

Which, incidentally, is the drider and not the nymph, so I don't think you have done/said anything I can take personally yet :P But maybe that wasn't aimed in my direction.

And there is always hope, isn't there? If I were to go with my own experience, high level monster games typically don't last that long to start with and I don't think tristalt will make it more stable. But we'll see : )

I'm shocked to find a nymph charisma caster with a monk dip in a monstrous gestalt game.

But you're missing the main focus of the character - it's not casting, it's buffing allies.

Inspiring Example (+22) (Ex) Allies within 60 ft. gain +22 morale bonus to attack, damage, checks and saves.

Stirring Speech (22/day) (Su) Inspire greatness in all allies within 30 ft. as a standard action
Inspiration (Su) Chosen creature gains +4 to Will saves and Craft/Perform checks while carries a mark of favor.

Inspiring Example (+22)

... Wow. How you get that?

It's from Suzerain Creature, Another reasonably balanced template.

... How is that CR+1?

I swear, Pazio must of been high when doing these templates.

It's probably worth more than that on a creature that already has 48 charisma. Introducing template really does change balance dramatically.

Uh... that's from the Advanced Bestiary. Paizo might use it so much it's practically official, but it's by Green Ronin Publishing. And an outstanding book, I might add. I've got a physical copy. XD

Also, remember that the large majority of templates are not meant for PCs to use. What's balanced for a player and what's balanced for an NPC are often different things. XD

Small nitpick: that is a 3pp template, so it is not Paizos you should complain about (for once^^) :P

An interesting thing it that the inspiring presence doesn't stack with some of the born to lead stuff, which seems very odd.

Small nitpick: that is a 3pp template, so it is not Paizos you should complain about (for once^^) :P

This is true.

Also, remember that the large majority of templates are not meant for PCs to use. What's balanced for a player and what's balanced for an NPC are often different things. XD

This is also true. The abilities of the template on a BBEG allows even his minions to hurt the party. The abilities of the template on a PC with a high charisma (lay aside nymph and go with just human 20 base, 3 from levels, 6 from items) is highly destructive to game balance.

But you're missing the main focus of the character - it's not casting, it's buffing allies.

I did notice the huge buff, which makes the character both less and more disruptive, in varying ways.

Are there any easy ways to get two extra arms?

I know two levels of Alchemist and a feat for Extra Discovery can get me two extra arms, but I was hoping there was a template or something. I love Alchemist, but even two levels adds more things to track to an already-complicated character.

I am looking at the Augmented template, would Additional Attack (Ex, 1 CP): Gains an additional slam attack give me an extra arm?

FYI, I am not trying to go nuts with multiattack or any of that silliness (won't have the DEX for it, anyway) I just want two extra arms for holding stuff while my other arms are doing stuff, keep my options open for actions without having to switch things (like staff in one hand, sword in another, crossbow in another, shield in another or something silly like that).

Mutant template I believe gets ya what ya want Ten :)

ooh that is pretty cool, lots of little side things in there i was interested in as well. hmmm....

I've got Breldna's description paragraphy written, most of her spells picked (still need to do Antipaladin I think) and her main combat "buddy" undead creature statted out. It's an ancient mithral dragon ravener. :)

@Ravener - Isn't it sorta risky to have a 'pet' that breaks free on a 5+ each day?

(Unless I missed something major)

@Lessah: Yeah, but I figure I can use command undead first, which lasts 22 days (thanks to Undead Master) and only allows a single saving throw at the beginning. If that fails, I use my Command Undead feat. If that fails, I use my Graveknight command ability. If that fails, I burn another spell. So I am hoping that most days, it's not an issue. Of course, that one day that we rest inside a dungeon and then my ravener kills us all, that'll be fun. LOL

If the GM doesn't post soon, I might make a third, more monstrous idea just for lulz. XD

Yeah I finished my jedi/sith. Haven't started the fluff since the GM has yet to post. No activity in kingmaker game either. :( Hope he comes back.