I am strongly considering switching my concept to a Rogue(Poisoner/Underground Chemist)/Alchemist(Eldritch Poisoner)/Investigator(Empiricist) and poison all the things.
Just to get you on my level of disappointment with that archetype BEFORE you make a whole character:
"Alchemist discoveries that affect mundane poisons do not apply to an arcanotoxin."
So, level with me guys...is Pain Taster even worth it? The flavor of Masochism and whatnot is SO COOL...but it's really nothing special, ditto the rest of the abilities. I think I'd be better off replacing that with ANYTHING else at this point.
I believe there are a bunch of specific discoveries just for it however.
I don't think it's worth it, honestly.
It has a lot of feat requirements that you'll be using mainly to qualify for it unless specifically built around, and the bonuses from the rituals or whatever are enhancement, which means you can just buy belts/headbands for the same effect.
Maybe for an NPC, but as a PC class?
Not worth it.
Yeah...it's just the first PrC I ever thought looked like something I wanted to use a few years back, but every time I re-read it it looks worse and worse.
I guess I'll just have to shelve it.
Not sure what to replace it with. Think I'll keep the whip using, inured to pain concept though.
does Hungry Ghost Monk have the flavor you are looking for? maybe with Vivisectionist Alchemist?
(not saying those two are a good pair, but are perhaps a flavorful pair)
I was thinking Vivisectionist, yeah. Though I would like some DR.
On my way back from shopping in Auburn. I will post when I get home.
Anybody have good ideas for locking down opponents larger than yourself?
Also, going kinda cold on Warder. Been tossing around Magus and Wizard as supplements for buffing. Any 3PP Int based classes that would fit well?
For buffing, Maestro from Strange Magic might be a good fit: it's a build-your-own bardic performance class, and the majority of it is INT-based. It's spells are CHA, but it only gets 1/level/day - they're not a big part. There's a couple related classes to it as well - the harmonicist, whose performances originate from people other than himself, and the breakdancer, whose abilities are more frontline based, and may be worth looking into depend on how it works with your action economy.
Besides that, I'd also look at Spheres of Power as an option, which presents an alternate spells system, in which you get magic through talent shrubs (I'd say talent trees, but very few abilities require prereqs except the base sphere). You can do a lot with it, and it works great for a focused concept, and besides the 11ish classes in there, it has archetypes to convert core classes (and it's supplement Expanded Options converts the rest through ACG).
As far as locking down bigger opponents... well I can't help you much there. I've got a decent amount of PF experience, but mostly as a GM, and not really at this level of play. I'm finishing up my statblock sometime tonight if not tomorrow, and I'll be welcoming feedback. :-)
@Cool Int classes - I planed to mix up the Harbinger and the Warder, the two initiating classes that uses int. If you don't wanna go for the warder anymore, maybe the harbinger is more to your liking?
@Pain Taster - It used to be a 5 level PrC which was kinda useful (for whiping especially!). But the full 10 level one sorta gained almost nothing over the old one ... :/
@Larger opponents - The Mouser (swashbuckler archetype) is sorta cool. I think there are something for barbarians as well!
(Or you could be an less awesome drider and get a net and throw it! :P)
I'll double check to see what the licence agreement says in the Harbinger pdf, maybe I could slip you a few details if you are undecided!
Edit: Yeah most of it seems to be open content, except the names. It's too late to censor half the pdf at this hour, but if you are interested I may pm select parts over tomorrow : )
Underfoot adept is kinda cool for locking down larger opponents, though at this level you pretty much can't grapple as a non-tetori. When you say shut down, what exactly do you mean, imposing non-damage effects? Spells are probably the best method of shutting down enemies, at this level dazing spells are quite common. Pow maneuvers are worse as they are usually single target and it's much harder to boost DCs, though it's certainly an option and some of them don't require saves. Next up is combat maneuvers. Trip is pretty much obsolete at this level, you can't trip flying opponents. Grapple might be good. As mentioned tetori is required to deal with freedom of movement, you also need to find a way to pin enemies in one round (though it's certainly possible). Another option is dirty trick. There are a plenthora of options for dirty trick, combining dirty trick master with some of the options from pow can let you chain daze/nauseate opponents. Yet another option is intimidate/fear stuff. Imposing the panicked condition can be quite crippling. There are also several options for AoE. Lastly there are hexes and domain/bloodline abilities, those vary greatly in effectiveness, but can be worth it. Though by banning combat stamina domain/bloodline strike went from a really good option for an unarmed fighter, though something very circumstantial.
As for pain taster, I'll give my thoughts. It's based on primarily three abilities, cruelty, masochism and DR. The DR is great. It's pretty much the best you can get as you can stack it with other DR, essentially gaining DR 1/- level if combined with Invulnerable Rager. If it's not stacked with other DR (and preferably more stuff like Protector Tumor Familiar Discovery, Spontaneous Healing Discovery, Fast Healing, Ablative Barrier etc), it won't be amazing though. Removing 5 damage is hardly going to make a dent against opponents dealing 100+ damage, but if you halve it, then remove 30 and then heal 10 on your turn, all of a sudden you've removed 90% of the damage. DR gets better the more you have. Going from removing 0% to 5% is only 5% of the remaining damage of the attack removed, but if you go from removing 80% to 85% that removes 25% of the remaining damage. Masochism is pretty bad. It's not hard to get higher morale bonuses, +2 to hit and +4 to damage is not a ton (quickened touch of rage from orc bloodline probably being the easiest and most comparable, that gives +7 to both hit and damage at our level, although at the cost of 3 feats, though of course you can then take improved and greater eldritch heritage to follow up). As for cruelty, sneak attack can be good if you build around it, but it requires a boatload of attacks to match up to other things given the level we are at. First you need a way to sneak, either golden commander stance or pack flanking or permanent greater invisibility combined with Lurker in Darkness. It won't be free, but it is possible. Secondly you need a boatload of attacks. That's kinda hard to achieve with a whip. My best idea is crusader's flurry (Calistria for Golarion, though I dunno the D&D deities well enough to quickly identify a replacement). That's not going to come close to other optimized sneak attack builds getting the same amount of weapon attacks (or more with 4 arms which we can get through RP) with half a dozen or more natural attacks on top of it (which we can also get through RP). Of course you might be allowed to progress normal sneak attack alongside cruelty, giving you 5d6 cruelty and 8d6 sneak come level 15, which with your whip (flurry) attacks is +13d6 and +8d6 with your secondary attacks. As for the feat requirements. If you were taking those feats anyway (in order to get improved stalwart), then it's not that bad. But if you aren't then they are kinda a huge cost (though there are several ways to get endurance for free).
I will answer some questions, then it is time for some much-deserved rest!
HighonHolyWater, undead can rage and I homebrew that they substitute CON for CHA.
Gyrfalcon, yes to ultimate rogue and skill unlocks, sneak attack DOES affect the target of a bomb, Zealot is allowed, ability score swaps are fine in race builder but swapping things like low-light vision and darkvision are not, undead and necromancers are not necessarily evil.
White Unggoy, you may use the race then and give it the RP boost. The Goat Clan Racial Heritage is 0 RP, considering that it is class-specific and balanced by an equal loss.
Rynjin, no need in rolling for character generation!
Philo Pharynx, check your inbox in a few hours.
Mellok, this is just a recruitment, so feel free to post a character!
Did that answer everyone's questions?
Underfoot adept is kinda cool for locking down larger opponents, though at this level you pretty much can't grapple as a non-tetori. When you say shut down, what exactly do you mean, imposing non-damage effects? Spells are probably the best method of shutting down enemies, at this level dazing spells are quite common. Pow maneuvers are worse as they are usually single target and it's much harder to boost DCs, though it's certainly an option and some of them don't require saves. Next up is combat maneuvers. Trip is pretty much obsolete at this level, you can't trip flying opponents. Grapple might be good. As mentioned tetori is required to deal with freedom of movement, you also need to find a way to pin enemies in one round (though it's certainly possible). Another option is dirty trick. There are a plenthora of options for dirty trick, combining dirty trick master with some of the options from pow can let you chain daze/nauseate opponents. Yet another option is intimidate/fear stuff. Imposing the panicked condition can be quite crippling. There are also several options for AoE. Lastly there are hexes and domain/bloodline abilities, those vary greatly in effectiveness, but can be worth it. Though by banning combat stamina domain/bloodline strike went from a really good option for an unarmed fighter, though something very circumstantial.
I was considering the fear route, yeah. If nothing else I can snag a free attack via Hurtful.
What are the Path of War options that make Dirty Trick so great? I've never made a character who uses it.
We're still open, huh? Gimme a bit to... work something out. I have an idea I'd like to put together. Is there a rough deadline for recruitment yet?
Thanks DM, my other Q was
Race points: one option is an at-will SLA of a spell 3rd level or lower (at a cost of 2x spell level in RP). Would you allow me to take that with Alchemical Allocation? It would be way too powerful for many games...but in a game where many players have monster levels and/or templates, it seems like it might be reasonable and it certainly adds some very flavorful versatility.
Technically, Alchemical Allocation isn't a spell.
Seize the opportunity is a feat that lets you use a dirt trick (or vital strike etc) instead of an attack of opportunity, that obviously works well with stuff like come and get me or the teamwork feat that does a similar thing or flying blades' level 3 deed (or reach, trip etc). Pit fighter's stance allow you a dirty trick per round as a swift action. Quick Dirty trick from paizo allow you to use a dirty trick in place of a melee attack once per round. I haven't actually played a dirty trick focused character, but if you can sicken or dazzle your enemies in advance that would obviously help a lot. I think there are aura's that let you do that. Naturally the CMD of the monsters we fight is going be rather large, so you probably have to boost it really high to pull it off consistently (using templates?).
Martial Lockdown is going to be much harder without combat stamina though. Not only does it make your abilities actually hit, but it offers options for extending duration as well.
This sounds like a lot of fun! I'll start putting something together.
Seize the opportunity is a feat that lets you use a dirt trick (or vital strike etc) instead of an attack of opportunity, that obviously works well with stuff like come and get me or the teamwork feat that does a similar thing or flying blades' level 3 deed (or reach, trip etc). Pit fighter's stance allow you a dirty trick per round as a swift action. Quick Dirty trick from paizo allow you to use a dirty trick in place of a melee attack once per round. I haven't actually played a dirty trick focused character, but if you can sicken or dazzle your enemies in advance that would obviously help a lot. I think there are aura's that let you do that. Naturally the CMD of the monsters we fight is going be rather large, so you probably have to boost it really high to pull it off consistently (using templates?).
Martial Lockdown is going to be much harder without combat stamina though. Not only does it make your abilities actually hit, but it offers options for extending duration as well.
Where's Seize the Opportunity from?
That could be perfect for a Whip build, especially with Long Arm tossed in, and Reaching Blade and Lunge for when I need that extra little push to hit things from 30 feet away. Though I may just drop Soulknife for something else that gives me more natural Reach.
Cornugon Smash plus Dirty Trick could be pretty rad. Toss in some Black Seraph Maneuvers maybe, along with Cursed Razor since I think more and more Harbinger is what I need.
I'd rather stay away from Templates. They're always kinda wonky in these sorts of games.
Yeah, most templates are meant for enemies, not PCs. XD Off the top of my head, I can only think of a handful that aren't.
That aside, I've got two of my classes picked out - my character is currently quite good in close combat and has a variety of support abilities (from being a Mesmerist). Since I'd like them to work well with the rest of party, is there anything in particular you'd like an ally to be able to do?
@Rynjin: That's also from here.
@Rednal: Stop enemies from killing me and debuff their saves. Mesmerist kinda does that already though ;).
About templates... Bah, you all refusing to use them kind of want to remove mine. They do represent a significant powerup. But how to keep up with the people chosing dread ghost otherwise? If half the people aren't going to take any templates at all I kind of wish they were banned, just to characters were more even.
...If you can't keep up with someone who goes insubstantial when you're a high-level (eventually mythic) tristalt, I think you have bigger problems to worry about. XD
More to the point, though, I am specifically not going overboard and min-maxing my character. Things are much easier on the GM when you keep it to a sensible level.
*Says this as someone who runs several tristalt games*
Yeah, I see no reason to take templates.
I was trying to fit one in to "keep up" or whatever, but that means giving up either 7th level Druid spells, or the very flavorful Burden of Sin from Sin Eater Inquisitor.
So, I'm template free, myself, although I am monstrous.
Depends on the template. Vampire character, lich character, etc is a lot different from a character with templates thrown on because of mechanics. Though it seems like a lot of the talk here it's more mechanics than character, so maybe they would fit right in.
Well, I already have the character (it's only a slightly modified version of an old character. Captured by Drow, tortured constantly as a "training doll" for little Drow kiddies, escaped...except this version is on Athas, so being alone out in the wastes wasn't much better, or perhaps even worse), so mechanics is all I need to hammer out.
About ghost, I meant keep up in powerlevel to somone who is essentially only dependent on a single stat and get +8 to that stat (on our side), not to be able to fight insubstantial enemies.
I like to find the perfect mix of mechanics and fluff, where they complement each other perfectly. It's much easier to discuss which pieces fit together mechnically and then fill in the fluff yourself rather than discuss various fluff options then try to find mechanics that fit that. Replacing the templates of my character with class levels would probably make it less powerful, but it would also remove a significant portion of fluff. Animal Lord is basically the same as Beorn from lotr, just for a wide variety of animals, that's very flavorful. The GM did mention he had an earth elemental eldritch godling as one of his playtest characters, that's kind of high on the power scale.
I chose vampire but I'm waiting on the GM to get back to a PM, with recent events. The Force Awakens coming out I wanted to play a mystical energy sword wielding jedi/sith from an advanced tech world. Using the dominate ability as my jedi mind trick, or Sith memory probe. So I asked the GM if we can flavor it as such. Just waiting on him to get back to me. I play in his kingmaker game and he has been pretty active. I know everyone is busy now with preparation and traveling for the holidays.
I chose vampire but I'm waiting on the GM to get back to a PM, with recent events. The Force Awakens coming out I wanted to play a mystical energy sword wielding jedi/sith from an advanced tech world. Using the dominate ability as my jedi mind trick, or Sith memory probe. So I asked the GM if we can flavor it as such. Just waiting on him to get back to me. I play in his kingmaker game and he has been pretty active. I know everyone is busy now with preparation and traveling for the holidays.
I've done a jedi with soulknife and psychic warrior (Meditant). You can get SAD with attack, damage and AC all off of wisdom. Add psion (or even dread) for the mind control and you've got a powerful character.
WhiteUnggoy here. Checkin the alias, what do we think? I pulled near half of my witch spells from a few more 3PP sources, so Divinitus, feel free to take a look and swing the banhammer at any you choose.
I'll do some setting research and get a somewhat cohesive bio together tomorrow.
Edit: Forgot to mention, google doc of the build selections is listed under "Homepage".
Gavmania, how are you getting the Shield Guardian?
Sorry, that should be shield champion - the brawler archetype, not shield guardian (which is a construct template). I must have had templates on the brain.
Anyhow, I think I will be dropping one of my templates, half-celestial, and just going with augmented (assuming I can make it work, what with needing wisdom and stuff). Otherwise I would have to drop too many levels.
@Ashe, look at Dark Tempest from Dreamscarred Press. It is on pfsrd. Pretty cool for a jedi or sith feel.
RE:templates: i picked lich for flavor and funsies, i'd still pick it if ability score bonuses were taken from it.
^Looking at my build above, and thinking about the Smoke template being inherited rather than acquired, I realized that the land speed increase from Marauder shouldn't apply to my fly speed - just that from base race. Adjusted now.
Hmm... this looks pretty cool. I've got a few ideas running around, wondering if a storied Seeker from Golarion might be too tame for Sigil, even though I love getting to write for highly competent combat-trained archaeologists.
Got most of the character sheet done. Just need skills and items...
Then to finish up the story of Viktor the paladin and his path to graveknighthood.
GM if you want to take a look I have the character setup under this Alias.
In short LN Hobgoblin from the height of the Dhakaani Empire in Eberron.
Classes 14 Unchained Monk, 14 Unchained Rogue, 14 Kineticist.
Lessah here, my character is stored under this alias for the moment.
The crunch is about 50-80% done depending on which path I choose (and if a certain template is too over the top, but a pm has been sent on that one!). Mostly need to pick a handful more feats and most of the skill points, as well as all the items (but they shouldn't really be any hurry, should they?).
The fluff is mostly done, in my head at least. Only the first say third or something is typed out. I need to tinker a bit with the midgame so that the start and end of what I have mesh well.
Now: main attractions!
The build is along the defensive line, heavily protected with AC and counters and other tricks. Against saves and such, the drider has a good baseline of stats but nothing that really pushes it into the silly areas(except a 'few' immunities here and there...).
Warder's Mark and the Dark Allured Claim stacks up to a -13 to hit her comrades, should the stars align (-7 for claimed targets to attack anyone that didn't claim them and -6 to attack an ally within 10' of the warder [aegis]).
Cursed Mirror Stance is the stance of choice to really put enemies between a rock and a hard place; attacking the drider herself in melee provokes an AoO (but only from the drider). The stance itself provides a nice number of extra AoO's to utilize in addition to Combat Reflexes so running out should be truly rare indeed!
To top it off the Warder's Extended Defences allows for infinite counters (as long as the condition is valid of course!) for a few rounds per day, synergising well with say Devastating Riposte from Black Seraph or even just Obsidian Sidestep or Word of Retribution (from Shattered Mirror and Cursed Razor).
I wonder what constitutes "good AC" at this level. Undoubtly we'll face enemies way above our CR (I've had fun beating CR 12 encounters at level 3 in another tristalt game and with templates this is even more crazy in some respects). I guess it'll depend on the party and that the GM adjust the monsters to fit us. Maybe we can expect bonuses somewhere around +30 to +40. That would make 40 pretty poor with 60 being pretty good.
I wish the GM at least banned the quickling template when I asked about it. That might have stopped me from investigate it further... As if auto-quickening and getting extra actions wasn't enough, it also let you cast really long duration stuff as a standard action. I might have to scrap that part and start over :/. I've wanted to play with that template since I saw it though and I've never gotten the chance before :(.
Mine is currently 36 (normal AC), with a few other defenses on top of that - mostly illusions, dodges, and temporary HP. Not sure what anyone else is like.
That aside, I should probably write up my character's home, huh? XD
That is a very good question indeed!
Going hog wild and dumping (almost) every piece of gold the drider could certainly land a bit north of 50.
Switching Dark Allure to Dark Command (-7 to attack anyone else while claimed to -7 to attack the Harbinger) would add some extra. But then the build isn't very helpful :P
And counters and such is a much more interactive way of not being struck!
But yeah, having some good benchmark would be nice. Tells you how far you ought to bend stuff to make it work!
Indeed. XD Reference points for Tristalt games... help. They really do, given how different characters can be.
Yeah. Tristalt and high level to boot, which in itself can create some rather wide discrepancies. And monstrous characters and templates and ... :P
Are we using fractional saves (and BAB I guess)?
Lessah here, my character is stored under this alias for the moment.
The crunch is about 50-80% done depending on which path I choose (and if a certain template is too over the top, but a pm has been sent on that one!). Mostly need to pick a handful more feats and most of the skill points, as well as all the items (but they shouldn't really be any hurry, should they?).
The fluff is mostly done, in my head at least. Only the first say third or something is typed out. I need to tinker a bit with the midgame so that the start and end of what I have mesh well.
Now: main attractions!
The build is along the defensive line, heavily protected with AC and counters and other tricks. Against saves and such, the drider has a good baseline of stats but nothing that really pushes it into the silly areas(except a 'few' immunities here and there...).
Warder's Mark and the Dark Allured Claim stacks up to a -13 to hit her comrades, should the stars align (-7 for claimed targets to attack anyone that didn't claim them and -6 to attack an ally within 10' of the warder [aegis]).
Cursed Mirror Stance is the stance of choice to really put enemies between a rock and a hard place; attacking the drider herself in melee provokes an AoO (but only from the drider). The stance itself provides a nice number of extra AoO's to utilize in addition to Combat Reflexes so running out should be truly rare indeed!
To top it off the Warder's Extended Defences allows for infinite counters (as long as the condition is valid of course!) for a few rounds per day, synergising well with say Devastating Riposte from Black Seraph or even just Obsidian Sidestep or Word of Retribution (from Shattered Mirror and Cursed Razor).
Well, this is mechanically roughly identical to what I was going to do, so I'm going to head back to the drawing board a bit. I've been having troubles getting everything situated like I want it to be anyway.
You weren't doing a drider were you? The great thing about pow characters is that they can be VERY different even if going for the same class. Tristalt and templates and customizable races only further that. Kinda like casters in that there is a huge variety of specializations available. A character focusing on combat maneuvers is going to be very different from one focusing on making the enemies attack them. By the way I learned there is actually a way to trip fliers now. Ace trip weapon master feats. That'll probably work great with a dex based trip character. Not sure how well it works with tempest gale, it might be kinda similar. If you treaten the target I beli you'll even get an AoO with greater trip (how cool would it be to trip someone then bull rush them smashing into the ground).
As for provoking only from one character... That is what paired opportunist is for. I'm sure the GM will let us add that in after selection if it fits (or someone can plan to share it).
Well, besides the Drider thing, it's the same stuff. Defensive build with Harbinger, impart as many penalties to enemies as possible and throw down, make them provoke AoOs, etc.
Besides which, I'm just not really feeling it any more. The Pain Taster thing not being worth it kinda killed my enthusiasm.