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Hi everyone! I'm planning to create a megathread later where I expand on each one of these topics later on, but I wanted to give a quick run-down of the things I've seen that need some work on the Monk class.
Once GenCon is over, I'll create a similar thread with fully detailed explanations.
THE ISSUES
1. Very limited trained skills. 3 + INT seems very restrictive.
2. VERY FEW SIGNATURE SKILLS. Doesn't allow for a lot of variation between characters.
3. VERY LIMITED INCENTIVES FOR ABILITY SCORE VARIANCE. As the class is very tight on their requirements to deal damage and maintain a good defence, there's little driving you away from wanting to pile onto STR/DEX/CON and call it a day. Even Ki Powers seem very optional in this.
Requirement: Trained in Occultism, Performance or Religion.
[Monk] – You learn secret defensive arts. You gain one of the following benefits, as long as you are trained in the corresponding skill:
Occultism: You gain a precognitive ability that allows you to foretell the attacks of enemies. You may add your Intelligence modifier to your AC and TAC while unarmored instead of your Dexterity modifier.
Performance: You are able to flow with the cadence of combat. You may add your Charisma modifier to your AC and TAC while unarmored instead of your Dexterity modifier.
Religion: Your movements are guided by divine providence. You may add your Wisdom modifier to your AC and TAC while unarmored instead of your Dexterity modifier.
Additionally, whenever you gain legendary proficiency in Occultism, Performance or Religion, you gain a +1 bonus to Reflex saves.
This would enable STR + INT/WIS/CHA Monks, which would likely take the Ki features.
Requirement: DEX 14.
[Monk] – You can cause enemies to flare up with pain by hitting their weak spots. When you deal damage with an unarmed attack, you deal additional damage equal to half your Dexterity modifier.
This would enable high DEX Monks, with middling STR.
4. LACK OF RANGED WEAPON PROFICIENCIES CREATES LARGE GAP IN CAPABILITIES. Being able to efficiently attack from range is an essential part of a martial character's toolkit. There's a large incentive to get Monastic Weaponry just for this reason, and it gives a "feel-bad" vibe to be spending a Class Feat in covering a glaring weakness instead of growing more powerful, even if they are the same thing.
5. BRACERS OF ARMOR ARE TOO LARGE A POWER SPIKE. This odd to say, but Bracers of Armor are too good. For a single item, your AC spikes by +2. No other class gets such a large boost in defences for such a small investment. It makes the class reliant on Bracers of Armor. Wizards/Sorcerers at least get to spend spells early on to get a level 1 mage armor effect until they get their own bracers. If this isn't fixed, Monks would salivate a little too much for this specific item.
6. STANCE SAVANT IS VERY WEAK. It's a very very very poor class feat. All it does is save you 1 action per encounter, and you should be quick enough to not care if you don't have your Stance up on the first turn. It feels like a feat tax to get to Master of Many Styles.
7. SEVERAL FEATURES TRY TO DO THE SAME THING. While things like Metal Strikes/Adamantine Strikes are probably very powerful in practice, Monks already have Flurry of Blows and Shattering Strike trying to do the "push through resistances" thing. Similarly, Tangled Forest Stance is about enemy movement control, while Tiger Stance is about the same thing – they go about it in relatively different ways, but not enough to justify two different class options I think.
7. VERY FEW REACTION OPTIONS. Other than Deflect Arrow, there's Crane Flutter, locked into a Stance featline, and Impossible Technique all the way at 20th level.
8. HOLY HELL +4 CONDITIONAL BONUS TO JUMP ON CRANE STYLE? That's uh, a pretty big bonus. I don't think there's many things that pump a bonus THAT hard. Like, the Discern Lies power is a 4th level power for a similar boost, and it's a limited power.
9. SOME CLASS FEATS COULD USE CONSOLIDATION INTO SKILL FEATS Wall Stride is cute, but it doesn't sound like someone who's relatively good at parkour couldn't do. Make it a Skill Feat! Similarly, Tongue of the Sun and the Moon is cute and a legacy thing to have, but no one is gonna pick it over combat tools on Class Feats. Just roll it into an Occultism legendary Skill Feat, nu?
10. FEW INCENTIVES TO TRY OUT MONK WEAPONS Other than the Bo Staff (which has parry, reach and trip), only the Nunchaku seems interesting (with its ability to disarm).
Thanks for reading!
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I think Stealth needs to be a signature skill for monks, personally. I'd put that ahead of Occultism or Performance. I mean, the "what to do in exploration mode" basically calls out "be stealthy". I mean the "cross the room with bells on neither casting a shadow nor making a noise" is basically a trope of fantasy martial arts training.
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I agree with allowing ki to be built off of one of the three mental stats completely as well as giving monks some weapon training as a base.
Other comments look good as well.
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1. totally agreed
2. also agreed
these two seem to be a general problem for martials
3. partially agreed - not sure about the solution though (sounds intersting though)
4.ranged weapons were never a big thing for monks, but I would agree that one could get monk weapon training
maybe change monastric weaponry that it enable special unarmed monk moves with weapons and/or give the possibility to add weapons to the list (which would also open some concept - calistria 'nuns' using whips, desna monks with starknifes, drunken style fencing caiden monks)
5.Not sure about the bracers strenght, but I really imagined them differently (more like an empty slate for armor runes (including potency)) which would be more interesting (and probably a bit more in line with the usual armor strength)
6. agreed - at least power it up (chance to change the style on different conditions, for example defeated enemy to face the next one in a different stance)
7. with this one I disagree, the features are often different enough and/or give other boni that I think they are justified, besides - styles can always be expanded and build upon
8. yeah, its pretty much - thats more akin to a ki power then a stance
9. sounds reasonable - parkour as acrobatics skill feats sound very good
10. well the main inventive would be having a weapon to upgrad instead of first having to get a magical item, but thats a weak one and fixed if monk would get prophiciencies
as said, to be able to declare weapons to monk weapons would be cool - and making monks weapons generally a bit more interesting couldnt hurt.
I think Stealth needs to be a signature skill for monks, personally. I'd put that ahead of Occultism or Performance. I mean, the "what to do in exploration mode" basically calls out "be stealthy". I mean the "cross the room with bells on neither casting a shadow nor making a noise" is basically a trope of fantasy martial arts training.
You can always tell a Milford man.
But yeah, Stealth seems like it should be part of the toolkit too. Partly because it allows for "ninja" style Monks as well.
I agree with allowing ki to be built off of one of the three mental stats completely as well as giving monks some weapon training as a base.
Other comments look good as well.
Great to hear I'm not way off mark.
1. totally agreed
2. also agreed
these two seem to be a general problem for martials
3. partially agreed - not sure about the solution though (sounds intersting though)
4.ranged weapons were never a big thing for monks, but I would agree that one could get monk weapon training
maybe change monastric weaponry that it enable special unarmed monk moves with weapons and/or give the possibility to add weapons to the list (which would also open some concept - calistria 'nuns' using whips, desna monks with starknifes, drunken style fencing caiden monks)5.Not sure about the bracers strenght, but I really imagined them differently (more like an empty slate for armor runes (including potency)) which would be more interesting (and probably a bit more in line with the usual armor strength)
6. agreed - at least power it up (chance to change the style on different conditions, for example defeated enemy to face the next one in a different stance)
7. with this one I disagree, the features are often different enough and/or give other boni that I think they are justified, besides - styles can always be expanded and build upon
8. yeah, its pretty much - thats more akin to a ki power then a stance
9. sounds reasonable - parkour as acrobatics skill feats sound very good
10. well the main inventive would be having a weapon to upgrad instead of first having to get a magical item, but thats a weak one and fixed if monk would get prophiciencies
as said, to be able to declare weapons to monk weapons would be cool - and making monks weapons generally a bit more interesting couldnt hurt.
Thanks for the in-depth reply!
3. Yeah, solution needs some workshopping but if you are making a class like Monk, something needs to be done to have some fun options around.
4. At the very least, being able to hit someone with a stick proficiently or throw a dart.
5. I love the idea. Making them like Handwraps could totally work – maybe they could grant a +1 item bonus baseline for 100sp, and then you could socket them with potency runes.
7. Oops, I meant to erase the first 7. I wanted to only keep the Reaction comment because the "too similar" thing ended up being too much of an opinion.
I really like your suggestion for #9. These are exactly the kinds of cool-and-flavorful abilities I was hoping high level skill feats would provide.
And getting away from making people choose between flavorful and combat-oriented abilities was one of the motivations for adding signature skills in the first place. Yet another reason to make these skill feats.
I really like this idea.
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And getting away from making people choose between flavorful and combat-oriented abilities was one of the motivations for adding signature skills in the first place. Yet another reason to make these skill feats.
Yep, it looks like there's a conflict –
1. they want to change what type of skill feats each class has with signature skills,
2. they want to add cool utility things only accessible to certain classes.
Seems like redundant systems to me.
I think monks should be able to choose either religion or occultism, since they need to decide if their ki powers are occult or divine.
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I think monks should be able to choose either religion or occultism, since they need to decide if their ki powers are occult or divine.
I'd toss in Performance to make it so there's a Sufi-like occult component too.
CHA-Monks are pretty popular in PF1, no reason why to leave them out off the gate.
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5. BRACERS OF ARMOR ARE TOO LARGE A POWER SPIKE.
I should note that I misread the entry for Bracers of Armor, and though they started out as a 2nd level mage armor effect.
The fact that they start at +1 seems like it solves the "power spike" issue...
...but given the issue of early game Monk AC, it seems like they could be made available faster perhaps.
Another concern is that they don't seem to be socketable, as @Seisho mentioned – at the very least, there could be other Bracers options out there, for example, a version that provides more AC at the cost of TAC or some other varied effects.
I think there's a good amount of non-ki power Class Feats to build a mundane Monk – a STR-based Monk built for tanking that stance-dances between Mountain and Dragon Stance could be fun, for example.
But having access to Signature Skills that reflect other expertises like Medicine or Stealth should be a thing.
Craft would also be welcome.
@shroudb, thanks for the reply!
1. I could see other classes being reined in in terms of skill ranks per level. That would be an alternative solution.
2. I think the best solution is to expand base Signature Skills. Making Background have major long-term repercussions to character development seems like it puts too much emphasis on character creation for optimization.
3. I think "Other Stat to X" is also a thing that should be sparsely used. I think Monk is the class to have those – it has a legacy as a class that modifies the attributes based on AC, and it's positively necessary to make STR-based builds work. I don't see how Rogue's Finesse Striker is of more import.
4. But it's still a feat tax, and that's the problem, nu?
5. I have recanted this statement XD Basically, I misread the bracers "type" as the spell level. Oops!
8. I know nice things are nice to have but +4 is a maaaassive bonus. I don't think it was intended.
10. Problem with Monastic Weaponry is that it's almost always worse than taking a Stance Feat, IF NOT for the ranged capabilities. If you take out ranged weapons from the equation, which is pretty necessary, Monastic Weaponry starts to lose out its lustre. So I think something extra should be added to weapons.
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2. Having Signature Skills tied to background would be a major storytelling liability. If my Monk was intended to be a street urchin (background of some sort) who learned how to unlock the hidden powers of their body (Occultism), then I'd never be able to get legendary in the ability that they are trying to attain.
Background should be a starting point, not a goal.
Classes are what establish what your character WILL become. Tying more Signature Skills to classes should be the way to go.
3. If Finesse Striker didn't exist, Rogues could always just put boosts in STR for damage. And Rogues who'd puts more or less boosts into STR would be missing out on 1 or 2 damage, but nothing to massive, given that the main source of damage in PF2 is weapon dice.
However, all Monks need to keep DEX maxed to avoid getting critted out of this world early on. There's no two ways about it.
If you want to be a Monk that doesn't max DEX, you are inviting death.
If Rogues didn't have Finesse Striker and didn't max STR, they'd be fine anyway.
So I'm not seeing why you are making an exception for the latter but are so dead-set on the former.
4. Having to spend a feat to make ranged attacks is a feat tax, regardless of your philosophy. You are buying into even level, not buying into a benefit.
10. In this, I can see there being some room for personal preference. But the other points are simply a matter of sensible class design.
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Didn't look at the monk too closely yet, so I can't say much about your points. I want to add one, though:
Ki Strike should give an untyped bonus. Conditional is just WAY too common. The whole base line Ki power becomes useless if you have an inspiring Bard or Bless casting Cleric in the party, both very likely even at level 1.
Getting +1 to one attack for a very limited number of strikes per day really doesn't seem too bad.
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Is "Ki Strike" sufficiently non-mystical that we can just give it to everyone? Other people get better spell point powers just built into the class without a feat investment. Either that or just no longer make it a prereq for all the other ki powers? It's a pretty bad feat (you get +1 to hit fewer than 6 times per day)
However, all Monks need to keep DEX maxed to avoid getting critted out of this world early on. There's no two ways about it.
If you want to be a Monk that doesn't max DEX, you are inviting death.
If Rogues didn't have Finesse Striker and didn't max STR, they'd be fine anyway.
So I'm not seeing why you are making an exception for the latter but are so dead-set on the former.
How much would it help to start Monks as masters of unarmored defense and just give them legendary at 13th (When fighters start getting legendary weapon proficiency) then just coming up with a different feature for level 17.
Biggest problem seems to be "before you can afford Bracers of Armor" so more on the front end would help.
I agree that Ki Strike is very underwhelming and is really the 2e playtest equivalent of the 1e 'Combat Expertise' as a feat tax for mystic monks. It's a boring and underpowered feat tax you have to pay in order to get the fun Ki stuff in higher levels.
Perhaps it just needs to be buffed. I would think of something like:
Class Feat
Ki Initiate:
By tapping into a supernatural inner reserve called ki, you can grow more powerful.
You gain a pool of Spell points with a capacity equal to either your Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom Modifier. This choice is made made when the pool is gained and cannot be changed later. You must also choose whether this Spell pool is divine or occult in nature.
You're trained in spell rolls and spell DCs for your ki powers, and your spell rolls and spell DCs use the modifier of the attribute picked when the Spell points were gained.
You also gain access to the Ki Strike or the Ki Dodge Powers.
New Power:
Ki Dodge Power 1
Casting: Reaction Verbal Casting
Trigger: You are attacked
You gain a +1 untyped bonus to your DC
This accomplishes the task of making the Ki entry feat more interesting and gives more options to the Monk player. Ki Strike and Ki Dodge should also be Level 1 Class Feats with Ki Initiate as a prerequisite so an interested player can pick up the other Ki power and really commit to the mystic monk fantasy if they wish. Heck it also reduces confusion between Ki Strike the Class Feat and Ki Strike the Power.
Edit: I also agree that DEX is a NECESSARY stat for Monks as they are right now. I tried making a STR/WIS damaging mystic monk but the AC was so low that I noped right out. (AC is super important as it prevents getting easily crit as well as easily hit!) This seems like a problem and either getting mental attributes to AC or getting early Master/Legendary Unarmed Defense would help lessen the pressure on DEX for the class and allow more variety of STR based builds.
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What's particularly galling is that 3 + Int is actually less skills than monks had in previous editions. Meanwhile, other classes are getting more skills than they did before.
All of the martial classes need more skills (except rogue, I guess). Skills are supposed to be how they can be versatile without spells, but the casters are getting more skills than the martials!
Signature skills are way too limited and limiting in general. You don't even get one for your background.
Regarding letting you use whatever mental stat you want... I could see doing that with archetypes down the road, but right out of the gate? None of the classes gets to pick which stat to use for their Spell Points, Powers and Spellcasting DCs, so it doesn't seem fair to let just the monk do so.
An option to let mystic monks get Wisdom to AC would be nice, I agree.
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Didn't look at the monk too closely yet, so I can't say much about your points. I want to add one, though:
Ki Strike should give an untyped bonus. Conditional is just WAY too common. The whole base line Ki power becomes useless if you have an inspiring Bard or Bless casting Cleric in the party, both very likely even at level 1.
Getting +1 to one attack for a very limited number of strikes per day really doesn't seem too bad.
Yeah, the fact it doesn't stack with many other sources IS an issue.
Is "Ki Strike" sufficiently non-mystical that we can just give it to everyone? Other people get better spell point powers just built into the class without a feat investment. Either that or just no longer make it a prereq for all the other ki powers? It's a pretty bad feat (you get +1 to hit fewer than 6 times per day)
Honestly, +1 to attack is not bad by itself, even if it's limited. Monks get really good proficiency to hit so it can help you land and crit with your Stunning Fists, so it's actually pretty sweet...
...but yeah, the fact it doesn't stack with many sources seems like an issue.
As for granting it baseline... I don't think particularly that the core Monk NEEDS more damage.
How much would it help to start Monks as masters of unarmored defense and just give them legendary at 13th (When fighters start getting legendary weapon proficiency) then just coming up with a different feature for level 17.
Getting Monks on the same tier of defence as Rogues at the start of the game is not without a cost – you get to a point in which Rogue players are asking "Do Monks do everything my class does but better?"
They are both similar classes early on, with high TAC, low damage dice, and no armor. Sure, Rogues get obscene amounts of skills, but even Fighters have disadvantages in combat compared to Rogues, whereas the Monk wouldn't have.
So yeah, it'd be an odd spot to be in.
That's why I prefer a baseline reaction that grants AC (in combination with a WIS/INT/CHA-to-AC class feat).
I agree that Ki Strike is very underwhelming and is really the 2e playtest equivalent of the 1e 'Combat Expertise' as a feat tax for mystic monks. It's a boring and underpowered feat tax you have to pay in order to get the fun Ki stuff in higher levels.
Paizo has agreed that more entry level ki class feats should be added, so I haven't focused that much on Ki Strike on this thread.
I'll just like to remark that if it weren't for the fact that conditional bonuses are common, +1 to Attack on demand WIS-times a day is actually pretty good. Just really really unexciting.As interesting a +AC ki power would be, I'd prefer to have a mundane parrying reaction – it makes sense that any Monk could react to an attack defensively.
Edit: I also agree that DEX is a NECESSARY stat for Monks as they are right now. I tried making a STR/WIS damaging mystic monk but the AC was so low that I noped right out. (AC is super important as it prevents getting easily crit as well as easily hit!) This seems like a problem and either getting mental attributes to AC or getting early Master/Legendary Unarmed Defense would help lessen the pressure on DEX for the class and allow more variety of STR based builds.
See my thoughts on early Master/Legendary above :P
Regarding letting you use whatever mental stat you want... I could see doing that with archetypes down the road, but right out of the gate? None of the classes gets to pick which stat to use for their Spell Points, Powers and Spellcasting DCs, so it doesn't seem fair to let just the monk do so.
Regarding your comments in skills, I have nothing left to add other than I agree, but I'm ready to be convinced otherwise about 3 + INT being good for the game.
But no one can convince me that Monks don't need Occultism and Medicine (and Stealth!) on the Siggy Skill list.Regarding Monks choosing stats and no other class doing it... I guess this is true, but I think that the Monk class needs a stronger thematic identity. Allowing them to convert a MENTAL ASPECT into a PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE would be a thing that strongly says "these guys are in another level".
After failing with math, people fail with reading. (Unless it has been errataed)
The Ki Strike power doesnt have a cost.
You can use it as often as you like as long you have the ability to do verbal casting (i.e. youre not silenced)
Both the Power description or the Feat say anything about having a cost, it just gives you your first access to Spell Points.
I doesnt have a cost. So, as it stands, it costs 0.
Which would me more than ok, since you can do VERY powerful effects by 2 SP.
And bards can do the same, as an AoE, with 1 action.
Womp womp
It seems you failed at reading and math, Rafa.
Why don't you go ahead and make a thread asking for clearer wording instead of wilfully ignoring the text? Good faith is required in any tabletop.
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I'm wondering if we couldn't shore up monk defense at low levels by giving them something like the Swashbuckler's Dodging Panache as a entry level ki power. Basically as a reaction to being attacked, spend 1 ki and Step then increase your AC by some amount (which the attack resolves against.)
It's appropriately monk-ey since you're supposed to be the best at "moving around in combat", differentiates itself mechanically from the rogue reaction, and fulfills a core fantasy of the monk that you are preternaturally skilled at evading attacks by moving out of the way.
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I'm wondering if we couldn't shore up monk defense at low levels by giving them something like the Swashbuckler's Dodging Panache as a entry level ki power. Basically as a reaction to being attacked, spend 1 ki and Step then increase your AC by some amount.
I'm having a browser issue where I try to favorite your post a million times but it's only making me favorite and unfavorite it, please help.
This would also give Monks A REACTION. Being able to REACT to things seems like a martial artist thing.
Bump cause mark is online
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Considering that ki strike costs a spell point, it is tremendously underwhelming.
My suggestion to make it more relevant: "The triggering attack does not suffer a multiple attack penalty; though it still progresses your multiple attack penalty." This approximates what it did for the 1e monk.
I had a chance to deep-dive into the monk class math last night, and found the class to be much better off in that department than at first glance. A main DEX, secondary STR monk using either of the agile stances is both offensively and defensively well-rounded.
While its attacks are slightly weaker at 1st level, dice quickly eclipse the -1 or -2 to damage of lower STR, and d8 agile attacks (plus the bonus attack due to flurry) surprisingly stack up well against the big d12 swings of the fighter or barb. By 8th level, they're only behind fighters in terms of damage , and it roughly stays that way all the way to 20th. Let me reiterate that: monk damage is already very solid and doesn't need further buffs.
Defensively, you get AC on par with a Fighter (eventually catching up to a Pally), TAC better than anyone else, top-tier saves (plus evasion if you want to pick it up) due to your ability to be master is all saves by 15th and being able to bump up your DEX, CON and WIS every 5 levels without sweating about it (unlike classes that have STR, INT or CHA as their primary stat).
They have pretty solid self-sustain with Wholeness of Body, decent access to control effects via their various styles (tiger slash for a free shove effect, dragon roar for AoE intimidate, etc.), and some cute utility abilities (abundant step etc). Sure, they have some dud feats, but there are enough viable choices at each level that I didn't feel disappointed.
----
On the other hand, the STR monk seems a little bit weak defensively (though not dramatically so). Plus the payoff for being a STR monk appears to be some of the grappling bonuses (Crushing Grab, Sleeper Hold) that seem OK, a little bit of extra damage, and not a whole lot else.
Its a bit of a shame that you have dud feats that stack badly or not at all with things your party is providing: Ki Strike (no good with inspire courage, bless), Dragon Stance, Diamond Soul, and Enlightened Presence (no good with heroism).
@Cellion:
Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?)
How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?
@Cellion:
Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?)How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?
Oh man, looking again I see that Second Path to Perfection doesn't do what I thought it did! I guess that's actually master in two saves at 15th. Not quite as good.
As for the calcs, they're in a working spreadsheet and a bit disorganized. I've split out a large portion looking at fighter, barb and monk and put them in a shared file AT THIS LINK if you want to try to follow them.
@Cellion:
Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?)
How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?
Rogue multiclass.
Womp womp
It seems you failed at reading and math, Rafa.
Why don't you go ahead and make a thread asking for clearer wording instead of wilfully ignoring the text? Good faith is required in any tabletop.
Could you please reproduce the text where the cost of the ability is?
I cant find in the entire book.
All abilities with costs, specially powers, have it cost written usually both at the power and at the feat that gives access to both.
This power have neither. It only cost is a free verbal action that you take just before the attack roll.
Feel free to quote the text otherwise if it is on the book.
All abilities with costs, specially powers, have it cost written usually both at the power and at the feat that gives access to both.
This power have neither. It only cost is a free verbal action that you take just before the attack roll.
I've quickly reviewed the ki powers. None of them have a ki cost specified at the power; except if the power gives additional ways to spend ki (e.g. Abundant Step (dimensional steps) can increase distance with more ki spent).
...
If what you said is true, then there is nothing preventing the monk from using the ki strike on every attack (it is a free action after all).
At the feat they could've just said "The monk gets a pool of spell points [bla..]; and a +1 conditional bonus to all attacks".
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I had a chance to deep-dive into the monk class math last night, and found the class to be much better off in that department than at first glance. A main DEX, secondary STR monk using either of the agile stances is both offensively and defensively well-rounded.
While its attacks are slightly weaker at 1st level, dice quickly eclipse the -1 or -2 to damage of lower STR, and d8 agile attacks (plus the bonus attack due to flurry) surprisingly stack up well against the big d12 swings of the fighter or barb. By 8th level, they're only behind fighters in terms of damage , and it roughly stays that way all the way to 20th. Let me reiterate that: monk damage is already very solid and doesn't need further buffs.
Defensively, you get AC on par with a Fighter (eventually catching up to a Pally), TAC better than anyone else, top-tier saves (plus evasion if you want to pick it up) due to your ability to be master is all saves by 15th and being able to bump up your DEX, CON and WIS every 5 levels without sweating about it (unlike classes that have STR, INT or CHA as their primary stat).
They have pretty solid self-sustain with Wholeness of Body, decent access to control effects via their various styles (tiger slash for a free shove effect, dragon roar for AoE intimidate, etc.), and some cute utility abilities (abundant step etc). Sure, they have some dud feats, but there are enough viable choices at each level that I didn't feel disappointed.
----
On the other hand, the STR monk seems a little bit weak defensively (though not dramatically so). Plus the payoff for being a STR monk appears to be some of the grappling bonuses (Crushing Grab, Sleeper Hold) that seem OK, a little bit of extra damage, and not a whole lot else.
Its a bit of a shame that you have dud feats that stack badly or not at all with things your party is providing: Ki Strike (no good with inspire courage, bless), Dragon Stance, Diamond Soul, and Enlightened Presence (no good with heroism).
I have no qualms with late game math.
And early game math for the STR Monk is pretty sad. There's also the fact that not everyone will optimize to an 18 DEX even on DEX builds.
That's why I believe that right now the biggest liability for monks is the lack of an early game reaction-based defense .
AC aside, ranged weapon proficiency, ability score versatility, and signature skill restrictions are still issues.
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I think you're wrong on Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I certainly pick it for my character.
If you played the playtest a bit you may have realized that speaking different languages is a scarce skill. The typical character will have 2 languages at the start - and then you can learn more languages by getting trained in Society and picking the skill feat Multilingual for 2 more languages. You could take the feat multiple times.
Has anybody found out if Flurry of Blows takes the -5 multiattack penalty?
One thing I will note is that while it turns on a bit late (level 8 minimum) Monastic Weapons is not the only source of ranged attacks Monks have. The Wild Winds Stance Ki Power Stance gives you 1d4 Agile Propulsive ranged attacks up to 30 feet as long as you maintain the Stance. It costs 1 Spell Point to enter the stance, isn't quite as powerful as Shuriken, and has less max range than Shuriken, but it's still a pretty decent option and works with the same Handwraps you're probably using for your other unarmed strikes anyways. And Wild Winds Stance leads into Wild Winds Gust, a decent Cone attack for those whose attack rolls are a lot better than their class DCs.
Has anybody found out if Flurry of Blows takes the -5 multiattack penalty?
Flurry of Blows does take the -5 multiple attack penalty - but the majority of monk unarmed strikes are also agile; so it is only a -4 penalty.
I believe if you spend 3 actions to flurry, then attack 2 more times with agile strikes, your progression is:
Full, -4, -8, -8.
I believe if you spend 3 actions to flurry, then attack 2 more times with agile strikes, your progression is:
Full, -4, -8, -8.
I see some folks use -5 for the MAP and some -4. Is this coming from disparate rules in the book. Like Paizo tweaked it at some point and folks are reading conflicting things?
I see some folks use -5 for the MAP and some -4. Is this coming from disparate rules in the book. Like Paizo tweaked it at some point and folks are reading conflicting things?I believe if you spend 3 actions to flurry, then attack 2 more times with agile strikes, your progression is:
Full, -4, -8, -8.
Agile reduces the MAP by 1, and most unarmed strikes are agile; if you are using Dragon Stance or Mountain Stance it would be -5.