[Monk] Quick Summary of Possible Design Issues


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LoreKeeper wrote:

Ah, thanks for clarification on "clumsy", I had that wrong.

I realized something earlier: the reason why I don't have problems with 1e monks at level 1 is because there was easy access to a potent solution, namely potions of mage armor. The playtest currently is very limited in what items are listed explicitly - but using potions of healing as example, it would cost 3gp to buy a potion of mage armor (item level 1, spell level 1). Or 8gp to buy an item level 3, spell level 2 potion of mage armor.

I think this could be enough to help the monk at level 1.

Asuet wrote:
I don't think the monk is supposed to have great AC.

That is where you are mistaken. The monk has not-so-great AC at level 1, but by level 20 a Dex monk has the highest AC of everybody, including paladins (and TAC equal to his AC). The late game power of the monk is unquestionable.

edit: isn't 3gp 1/5th of your starting money? and only works for one encounter? how does that solve the problem of low early game AC? do you just pray that you get enough money to keep the potion drip-feed going until you can purchase better gear (that you keep spending money from to pay for those potions beforehand)?


The potion's effect lasts for 1 day. The number of encounters that encompasses isn't clear. The group that I GM'd Doomsday Dawn part 1 for did the entire part in 1 day in-game time.

The monk, at level 1, has essentially no reason to spend money on anything other than some essentials (lantern, bed roll, rations, etc). Buying 3 potions to tide him over to level 2 should be fine.

Edit: though note that whether potions of mage armor are allowed at your table depends on your playgroup. Your mileage will vary.


In my group's Doomsday Dawn I'm currently playing an Elf Monk. 18/14/10/12/14/10 starting stats, Strength-based obviously. So far we've only had one fight (we're doing a discord PbP rather than "sessions") that ended before the enemy even got a chance to hit me (I rolled hot trash on initiative, I managed to get into melee range, flurry it once, and then the barbarian killed it right afterwards) so I can't speak to AC, and my build has a particular gimmick that gives me a particularly unusual tactic (Going Speedster mode, I'll have 70 speed by the final act, would be 75 by 20 if we went that far) that might make up for my lack of AC. I do not however currently have (or currently have any intentions to get) Crane Style, a Bo Staff, or any other such Circumstance bonus to AC. In fact, my first feat was Dragon Style because I wanted to hit like a truck, and later feats will probably mostly be Ki Powers.


LoreKeeper wrote:

Just a for fun design distraction: here's my take on how weapons (including bow) could work for the monk

Iron Tempest Stance (Feat 1)
When learning this stance, choose one weapon that does not have the unarmed trait. Your proficiency rank in that weapon matches your proficiency rank for unarmed attacks. You can use the weapon with any of your monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks except stances other than Iron Tempest Stance.
If the weapon is a monk weapon, it additionally has the agile and finesse traits while in Iron Tempest Stance.

Iron Strikes (Feat 6)
Prerequisites: Iron Tempest Stance
Requirements: You are in Iron Tempest Stance.
You ignore the multiple attack penalty, instead all attacks are at a -3 penalty. This excludes attacks that explicitly set a penalty other than the multiple attack penalty.

Seems like it steps too much on the Ranger/Rogue's gimmick. Agile/Finesse is part of the Rogue's purview, and Ranger focuses on reducing multiattack penalties.

Also, it needlessly punishes people who want to use weapons which are agile/finesse baseline, by making them inferior to weapons that spend their power budget on higher damage dice or other modifiers.

I would prefer:

1. Grant monk weapon proficiency baseline.

2. Add 1st level feats that grant additional functionalities to weapons with disarm, parry, trip, agile, respectively. The agile one perhaps could allow you to hit another target at an action discount, the trip one could allow you to make a follow-up while they are down, the disarm one could allow you to use that as a reaction, and the parry one could give you a reactive shield type of ability.

3. At 2nd level, add a feat that allows you to use your weapon with all unarmed-based abilities.

4. Add a few follow-up feats.

This way, you are making weapons exciting and unique on their own.

Dark Archive

Here's some weirdness: monks jump better when someone is trying to kill them. A monk in crane stance gets a ridiculous +4 conditional bonus to jump, and can get better distance both horizontally and vertically. However, you cannot enter a stance except in encounter mode. So get an ally to start throwing rocks at you before you try to jump that wall.


This may have been already brought up. Or it may be the result of misunderstanding how Resonance and invested magic items work. In any case, is it me or does the Monk almost "require" a minimum Charisma score of 12, if not to start then at some point down the road, in order to have a total of 2 Resonance Points and be able to use both the bracers of armor and the handwraps of mighty fists at the same time, items that are almost necessary or at least important in regards to his combat effectiveness?

Not that I necessarily mind, just curious mostly.


F. Castor wrote:
This may have been already brought up. Or it may be the result of misunderstanding how Resonance and invested magic items work. In any case, is it me or does the Monk almost "require" a minimum Charisma score of 12 in order to have a total of 2 Resonance Points and be able to use both the bracers of armor and the handwraps of mighty fists at the same time, items that are almost necessary or at least important in regards to his combat effectiveness?

You also add your level - so by the time you can afford bracers and handwraps you typically have enough Resonance.


Ah, thanks. Misunderstanding it was then.


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One more design issue:

Perfected Form, does almost nothing.

Being able to turn anything under a 10 into a 10 does not mean much when you would never hit on a 10 anyway, without being able to consider them flatfooted or some other bonus, and that is only on the first attack. It is completely pointless on anything but the first attack.

Just give them legendary in unarmed and a small bonus, like your unarmed strikes multiple attack penalty is only -3, -6 if agile or -4, -8 if not.


Some quibbles...

I would like shurikens to work with at least some if not all monk abilities if you have monastic weaponry... it's not that significant... less damage but range. At a minimum, I should be able to flurry them.

It also doesn't make sense that a fighter can be a master of unarmed combat at level 3... but a Monk has to wait till level 13. A fighter can be a legend at unarmed combat eventually... a monk never can. I get the mechanical reason for this... but there is no thematic reason for it. At a minimum, a 20th level monk should have the option to become an unarmed legend through feat choice.

I think some stance bonuses should be passive outside the bounds of being in the stance... The Dragon's +1 vs paralysis and sleep feels like it should be an always thing... the Crane's jump bonus has already been mentioned.

I also think there is a missed opportunity for single-stance focused builds that give bonuses if you have one stance and never take any others.


Ephfive wrote:

Some quibbles...

I would like shurikens to work with at least some if not all monk abilities if you have monastic weaponry... it's not that significant... less damage but range. At a minimum, I should be able to flurry them.

It also doesn't make sense that a fighter can be a master of unarmed combat at level 3... but a Monk has to wait till level 13. A fighter can be a legend at unarmed combat eventually... a monk never can. I get the mechanical reason for this... but there is no thematic reason for it. At a minimum, a 20th level monk should have the option to become an unarmed legend through feat choice.

I think some stance bonuses should be passive outside the bounds of being in the stance... The Dragon's +1 vs paralysis and sleep feels like it should be an always thing... the Crane's jump bonus has already been mentioned.

I also think there is a missed opportunity for single-stance focused builds that give bonuses if you have one stance and never take any others.

Equipment: "Shuriken 1 cp 1d4 P 20 ft. 0 — 1 Dart Agile, monk, thrown"

Traits: "Monk: Monks can use these weapons with their abilities that normally require unarmed attacks."


Whisperknives wrote:

One more design issue:

Perfected Form, does almost nothing.

Being able to turn anything under a 10 into a 10 does not mean much when you would never hit on a 10 anyway, without being able to consider them flatfooted or some other bonus, and that is only on the first attack. It is completely pointless on anything but the first attack.

Just give them legendary in unarmed and a small bonus, like your unarmed strikes multiple attack penalty is only -3, -6 if agile or -4, -8 if not.

Actually, this is a surprisingly excellent feature when you get it. While it doesn't do much for you when you're alone, at these high levels you should not only have access to heroism (+3 conditional bonus on attack rolls) but your party has many different avenues for delivering debuffs (flatfooted, sluggish, and/or frightened). If you can get the accuracy of your first hit up to 80% (not impossible at this level), it turns your flurry of blows into two automatic hits. That's a really big damage increase!


Cellion wrote:
Whisperknives wrote:

One more design issue:

Perfected Form, does almost nothing.

Being able to turn anything under a 10 into a 10 does not mean much when you would never hit on a 10 anyway, without being able to consider them flatfooted or some other bonus, and that is only on the first attack. It is completely pointless on anything but the first attack.

Just give them legendary in unarmed and a small bonus, like your unarmed strikes multiple attack penalty is only -3, -6 if agile or -4, -8 if not.

Actually, this is a surprisingly excellent feature when you get it. While it doesn't do much for you when you're alone, at these high levels you should not only have access to heroism (+3 conditional bonus on attack rolls) but your party has many different avenues for delivering debuffs (flatfooted, sluggish, and/or frightened). If you can get the accuracy of your first hit up to 80% (not impossible at this level), it turns your flurry of blows into two automatic hits. That's a really big damage increase!

That is the issue though, it is not possible to get your attack bonus that high.

At level 19 you should have an attack bonus of 31 if you maxed out all you can and have level appropriate handwraps/weapon.

However, average monster AC is like 43, So you would have to catch them flat footed, or get a party buff just for your own class ablity to work, and that is ONLY on the first attack each round.
It has no chance to ever help on attack number 2, 3, or 4.

That is a very crappy level 19 ability.

I would happily just take legendary in unarmed instead. I will take my +5% to hit all the time over 1 a round change a miss to hit, if I have help.

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