[Monk] Quick Summary of Possible Design Issues


Classes

1 to 50 of 113 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

12 people marked this as a favorite.

Hi everyone! I'm planning to create a megathread later where I expand on each one of these topics later on, but I wanted to give a quick run-down of the things I've seen that need some work on the Monk class.

Once GenCon is over, I'll create a similar thread with fully detailed explanations.

THE ISSUES

1. Very limited trained skills. 3 + INT seems very restrictive.
Fix: Bump to 5!

2. VERY FEW SIGNATURE SKILLS. Doesn't allow for a lot of variation between characters.
Fix: Add Occultism (philosophy, esotericism), Performance (particularly fitting) and Medicine (very iconic).

3. VERY LIMITED INCENTIVES FOR ABILITY SCORE VARIANCE. As the class is very tight on their requirements to deal damage and maintain a good defence, there's little driving you away from wanting to pile onto STR/DEX/CON and call it a day. Even Ki Powers seem very optional in this.
Fix: First, allow Ki to be keyed off INT, WIS or CHA, to player taste. Then, add the following two Class Feats:

Esoteric Defence:
Esoteric Defence – Feat 1
Requirement: Trained in Occultism, Performance or Religion.
[Monk] – You learn secret defensive arts. You gain one of the following benefits, as long as you are trained in the corresponding skill:
Occultism: You gain a precognitive ability that allows you to foretell the attacks of enemies. You may add your Intelligence modifier to your AC and TAC while unarmored instead of your Dexterity modifier.
Performance: You are able to flow with the cadence of combat. You may add your Charisma modifier to your AC and TAC while unarmored instead of your Dexterity modifier.
Religion: Your movements are guided by divine providence. You may add your Wisdom modifier to your AC and TAC while unarmored instead of your Dexterity modifier.
Additionally, whenever you gain legendary proficiency in Occultism, Performance or Religion, you gain a +1 bonus to Reflex saves.

This would enable STR + INT/WIS/CHA Monks, which would likely take the Ki features.

Pressure Points:
Pressure Points – Feat 1
Requirement: DEX 14.
[Monk] – You can cause enemies to flare up with pain by hitting their weak spots. When you deal damage with an unarmed attack, you deal additional damage equal to half your Dexterity modifier.

This would enable high DEX Monks, with middling STR.

4. LACK OF RANGED WEAPON PROFICIENCIES CREATES LARGE GAP IN CAPABILITIES. Being able to efficiently attack from range is an essential part of a martial character's toolkit. There's a large incentive to get Monastic Weaponry just for this reason, and it gives a "feel-bad" vibe to be spending a Class Feat in covering a glaring weakness instead of growing more powerful, even if they are the same thing.
Fix:Grant proficiency with Monk weapons baseline, but don't allow them to be used with Monk feats and features unless you spend a Class Feat.

5. BRACERS OF ARMOR ARE TOO LARGE A POWER SPIKE. This odd to say, but Bracers of Armor are too good. For a single item, your AC spikes by +2. No other class gets such a large boost in defences for such a small investment. It makes the class reliant on Bracers of Armor. Wizards/Sorcerers at least get to spend spells early on to get a level 1 mage armor effect until they get their own bracers. If this isn't fixed, Monks would salivate a little too much for this specific item.
Fix:Perhaps grant Monk's the ability to benefit from a special equipment named "Sparring Bracers" or something like that which grants a +1 item bonus to AC for relatively cheap and only Monks can benefit from. It'd become obsolete by level 2 when bracers of armor start appearing, but it won't send Monks into a depression if they can't find them.

6. STANCE SAVANT IS VERY WEAK. It's a very very very poor class feat. All it does is save you 1 action per encounter, and you should be quick enough to not care if you don't have your Stance up on the first turn. It feels like a feat tax to get to Master of Many Styles.
Fix:Merge it with Master of Many Styles – make it grant you the higher power ability naturally.

7. SEVERAL FEATURES TRY TO DO THE SAME THING. While things like Metal Strikes/Adamantine Strikes are probably very powerful in practice, Monks already have Flurry of Blows and Shattering Strike trying to do the "push through resistances" thing. Similarly, Tangled Forest Stance is about enemy movement control, while Tiger Stance is about the same thing – they go about it in relatively different ways, but not enough to justify two different class options I think.
Fix:Nothing particularly comes to mind here, other than making another pass at Class Feats.

7. VERY FEW REACTION OPTIONS. Other than Deflect Arrow, there's Crane Flutter, locked into a Stance featline, and Impossible Technique all the way at 20th level.
Fix:I think more offensive options could be there, like reaction trips against enemies running past you, disarms against enemies who fail to hit you, etc.

8. HOLY HELL +4 CONDITIONAL BONUS TO JUMP ON CRANE STYLE? That's uh, a pretty big bonus. I don't think there's many things that pump a bonus THAT hard. Like, the Discern Lies power is a 4th level power for a similar boost, and it's a limited power.
Fix:Damn that's a big bonus.

9. SOME CLASS FEATS COULD USE CONSOLIDATION INTO SKILL FEATS Wall Stride is cute, but it doesn't sound like someone who's relatively good at parkour couldn't do. Make it a Skill Feat! Similarly, Tongue of the Sun and the Moon is cute and a legacy thing to have, but no one is gonna pick it over combat tools on Class Feats. Just roll it into an Occultism legendary Skill Feat, nu?
Fix:Yeah, what he said.

10. FEW INCENTIVES TO TRY OUT MONK WEAPONS Other than the Bo Staff (which has parry, reach and trip), only the Nunchaku seems interesting (with its ability to disarm).
Fix: Perhaps Monk weapons could have another interesting benefits, like for example, being able to double dip between Brawling + another critical specialization or something like that. You could also grant Weapon Monks access to special Class Feats to combine unarmed strikes + weapon attacks creatively.

Thanks for reading!


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I think Stealth needs to be a signature skill for monks, personally. I'd put that ahead of Occultism or Performance. I mean, the "what to do in exploration mode" basically calls out "be stealthy". I mean the "cross the room with bells on neither casting a shadow nor making a noise" is basically a trope of fantasy martial arts training.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I agree with allowing ki to be built off of one of the three mental stats completely as well as giving monks some weapon training as a base.

Other comments look good as well.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

1. totally agreed

2. also agreed

these two seem to be a general problem for martials

3. partially agreed - not sure about the solution though (sounds intersting though)

4.ranged weapons were never a big thing for monks, but I would agree that one could get monk weapon training
maybe change monastric weaponry that it enable special unarmed monk moves with weapons and/or give the possibility to add weapons to the list (which would also open some concept - calistria 'nuns' using whips, desna monks with starknifes, drunken style fencing caiden monks)

5.Not sure about the bracers strenght, but I really imagined them differently (more like an empty slate for armor runes (including potency)) which would be more interesting (and probably a bit more in line with the usual armor strength)

6. agreed - at least power it up (chance to change the style on different conditions, for example defeated enemy to face the next one in a different stance)

7. with this one I disagree, the features are often different enough and/or give other boni that I think they are justified, besides - styles can always be expanded and build upon

8. yeah, its pretty much - thats more akin to a ki power then a stance

9. sounds reasonable - parkour as acrobatics skill feats sound very good

10. well the main inventive would be having a weapon to upgrad instead of first having to get a magical item, but thats a weak one and fixed if monk would get prophiciencies
as said, to be able to declare weapons to monk weapons would be cool - and making monks weapons generally a bit more interesting couldnt hurt.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think Stealth needs to be a signature skill for monks, personally. I'd put that ahead of Occultism or Performance. I mean, the "what to do in exploration mode" basically calls out "be stealthy". I mean the "cross the room with bells on neither casting a shadow nor making a noise" is basically a trope of fantasy martial arts training.

You can always tell a Milford man.

But yeah, Stealth seems like it should be part of the toolkit too. Partly because it allows for "ninja" style Monks as well.

Azih wrote:

I agree with allowing ki to be built off of one of the three mental stats completely as well as giving monks some weapon training as a base.

Other comments look good as well.

Great to hear I'm not way off mark.

Seisho wrote:

1. totally agreed

2. also agreed

these two seem to be a general problem for martials

3. partially agreed - not sure about the solution though (sounds intersting though)

4.ranged weapons were never a big thing for monks, but I would agree that one could get monk weapon training
maybe change monastric weaponry that it enable special unarmed monk moves with weapons and/or give the possibility to add weapons to the list (which would also open some concept - calistria 'nuns' using whips, desna monks with starknifes, drunken style fencing caiden monks)

5.Not sure about the bracers strenght, but I really imagined them differently (more like an empty slate for armor runes (including potency)) which would be more interesting (and probably a bit more in line with the usual armor strength)

6. agreed - at least power it up (chance to change the style on different conditions, for example defeated enemy to face the next one in a different stance)

7. with this one I disagree, the features are often different enough and/or give other boni that I think they are justified, besides - styles can always be expanded and build upon

8. yeah, its pretty much - thats more akin to a ki power then a stance

9. sounds reasonable - parkour as acrobatics skill feats sound very good

10. well the main inventive would be having a weapon to upgrad instead of first having to get a magical item, but thats a weak one and fixed if monk would get prophiciencies
as said, to be able to declare weapons to monk weapons would be cool - and making monks weapons generally a bit more interesting couldnt hurt.

Thanks for the in-depth reply!

3. Yeah, solution needs some workshopping but if you are making a class like Monk, something needs to be done to have some fun options around.

4. At the very least, being able to hit someone with a stick proficiently or throw a dart.

5. I love the idea. Making them like Handwraps could totally work – maybe they could grant a +1 item bonus baseline for 100sp, and then you could socket them with potency runes.

7. Oops, I meant to erase the first 7. I wanted to only keep the Reaction comment because the "too similar" thing ended up being too much of an opinion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I really like your suggestion for #9. These are exactly the kinds of cool-and-flavorful abilities I was hoping high level skill feats would provide.

And getting away from making people choose between flavorful and combat-oriented abilities was one of the motivations for adding signature skills in the first place. Yet another reason to make these skill feats.

I really like this idea.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Porridge wrote:


And getting away from making people choose between flavorful and combat-oriented abilities was one of the motivations for adding signature skills in the first place. Yet another reason to make these skill feats.

Yep, it looks like there's a conflict –

1. they want to change what type of skill feats each class has with signature skills,

2. they want to add cool utility things only accessible to certain classes.

Seems like redundant systems to me.


I think monks should be able to choose either religion or occultism, since they need to decide if their ki powers are occult or divine.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Joe Hex wrote:
I think monks should be able to choose either religion or occultism, since they need to decide if their ki powers are occult or divine.

I'd toss in Performance to make it so there's a Sufi-like occult component too.

CHA-Monks are pretty popular in PF1, no reason why to leave them out off the gate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:
5. BRACERS OF ARMOR ARE TOO LARGE A POWER SPIKE.

I should note that I misread the entry for Bracers of Armor, and though they started out as a 2nd level mage armor effect.

The fact that they start at +1 seems like it solves the "power spike" issue...

...but given the issue of early game Monk AC, it seems like they could be made available faster perhaps.

Another concern is that they don't seem to be socketable, as @Seisho mentioned – at the very least, there could be other Bracers options out there, for example, a version that provides more AC at the cost of TAC or some other varied effects.


Joe Hex wrote:
I think monks should be able to choose either religion or occultism, since they need to decide if their ki powers are occult or divine.

And those without Ki powers need something that's not mystical at all


I think there's a good amount of non-ki power Class Feats to build a mundane Monk – a STR-based Monk built for tanking that stance-dances between Mountain and Dragon Stance could be fun, for example.

But having access to Signature Skills that reflect other expertises like Medicine or Stealth should be a thing.

Craft would also be welcome.


1. No

at what point does Int stat becomes pointless? Every Int based class gets "penaltized" for being Int based at that point.

i don't see "extra RP" for non-Cha based classes, Extra bulk for non-str based classes, extra X for Y based classes. But I do see every non-Int based class gaining extra skills.

Make it 5+int as you suggest, and with just a 12 int you'll have as much skills as an alchemist or a wizard that put everything into Int (18). What non-class based bonus DO they gain at that point from their stats? Nothing.

if anything they need to REDUCE starting skills for some classes (looking at you Clerics and Sorcs)

With ability boosts you can easily gain a new trained skill every 5 levels either way.

2. Somewhat

let base class Signature skills stay as they are. But let backgrounds grant us 1 more. It allows for better customizability of our character, and it also allows us to pick up something that FITS our "character" and not our "class"

3. Yes to Ki being keyed to other stats. No to both abilities/feats you propose. Starting to give otherstattodamage and otherstatto ac is a can of worms that i hope stays forever closed in the 1st edition outside of very, VERY, specific occasions (like rogue's dex to damage)

4. All classes have feat taxes that need to be looked at. At least monastic gives extra benefits rather than just being a feat tax for ranged

5. Eh... i see no problem. They do start from +1 affordable from level2 and onwards. Other classes wont be gaining + to ac at level 2 since they first need to make expert armors to start adding potency runes on them.

6. See 4, but in general Yes.

7. no

8. let's stop complaining about the good stuff! they'll take them away!

9. yes

10. no. Main reason is if you want to use a weapon, it does that nicely.


@shroudb, thanks for the reply!

1. I could see other classes being reined in in terms of skill ranks per level. That would be an alternative solution.

2. I think the best solution is to expand base Signature Skills. Making Background have major long-term repercussions to character development seems like it puts too much emphasis on character creation for optimization.

3. I think "Other Stat to X" is also a thing that should be sparsely used. I think Monk is the class to have those – it has a legacy as a class that modifies the attributes based on AC, and it's positively necessary to make STR-based builds work. I don't see how Rogue's Finesse Striker is of more import.

4. But it's still a feat tax, and that's the problem, nu?

5. I have recanted this statement XD Basically, I misread the bracers "type" as the spell level. Oops!

8. I know nice things are nice to have but +4 is a maaaassive bonus. I don't think it was intended.

10. Problem with Monastic Weaponry is that it's almost always worse than taking a Stance Feat, IF NOT for the ranged capabilities. If you take out ranged weapons from the equation, which is pretty necessary, Monastic Weaponry starts to lose out its lustre. So I think something extra should be added to weapons.


Secret Wizard wrote:

@shroudb, thanks for the reply!

1. I could see other classes being reined in in terms of skill ranks per level. That would be an alternative solution.

2. I think the best solution is to expand base Signature Skills. Making Background have major long-term repercussions to character development seems like it puts too much emphasis on character creation for optimization.

3. I think "Other Stat to X" is also a thing that should be sparsely used. I think Monk is the class to have those – it has a legacy as a class that modifies the attributes based on AC, and it's positively necessary to make STR-based builds work. I don't see how Rogue's Finesse Striker is of more import.

4. But it's still a feat tax, and that's the problem, nu?

5. I have recanted this statement XD Basically, I misread the bracers "type" as the spell level. Oops!

8. I know nice things are nice to have but +4 is a maaaassive bonus. I don't think it was intended.

10. Problem with Monastic Weaponry is that it's almost always worse than taking a Stance Feat, IF NOT for the ranged capabilities. If you take out ranged weapons from the equation, which is pretty necessary, Monastic Weaponry starts to lose out its lustre. So I think something extra should be added to weapons.

for 2:

i don't see where else to put it though: I don't believe too many signatures skills will be a good thing. 1 more is enough imo. And since we gain ancestry feats, skill feats, general feats, class feats, etc... the only thing we only get one is background.

AND it makes sense.

look at your own examples. All of them can be justified in a background. In fact there exist backgrounds already that fit them (like performer and etc)

for 3.
the reason i said it's ok for rogue (probably) is due to the massive hit (in damage) sneak got. They are also hard-linked to Dex due to their (required) skills being Dex based for the class to perform (sneak and disable).

So, a rogue has no option B?UT to be dex based.

With the ability boost system, MAD classes like Monk get quite good after level 5 and then level 10, more than single stat focused classes (all martials actually do)

I'm still fully against other stat to X because it opens a really, really big can of worms

4. It depends on the design philosophy they want. Personally, i can see it going both ways. No feat taxes at all gives more options to players. Some feat taxes and chains give more "archetype" identity. The very minimum I want is to actually have even "feat taxes" provide some actual benefit. As an example, Monastic does that, Stance whatever, doesn't.

So, for a "feat tax", if this is the philosophy that they're working towards, is a GOOD example of doing it. (as an example of a terrible feat tax, they put a 3 round onset on all mutagens just so that there is a level 6 or so feat to remove it)

10.

maybe from an optimization point of view. But again, it gives access to archetypes and themes (weapon based monks). So, maybe it's not the best "math" wise, but it allows you to play that nunchuck wielding martial artist you always wanted!

"Math" wise there will always be an "optimal" build. The only consideration is that base builds aren't that far behind. And I don't think monastic is that far behind.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

2. Having Signature Skills tied to background would be a major storytelling liability. If my Monk was intended to be a street urchin (background of some sort) who learned how to unlock the hidden powers of their body (Occultism), then I'd never be able to get legendary in the ability that they are trying to attain.
Background should be a starting point, not a goal.
Classes are what establish what your character WILL become. Tying more Signature Skills to classes should be the way to go.

3. If Finesse Striker didn't exist, Rogues could always just put boosts in STR for damage. And Rogues who'd puts more or less boosts into STR would be missing out on 1 or 2 damage, but nothing to massive, given that the main source of damage in PF2 is weapon dice.
However, all Monks need to keep DEX maxed to avoid getting critted out of this world early on. There's no two ways about it.
If you want to be a Monk that doesn't max DEX, you are inviting death.
If Rogues didn't have Finesse Striker and didn't max STR, they'd be fine anyway.
So I'm not seeing why you are making an exception for the latter but are so dead-set on the former.

4. Having to spend a feat to make ranged attacks is a feat tax, regardless of your philosophy. You are buying into even level, not buying into a benefit.

10. In this, I can see there being some room for personal preference. But the other points are simply a matter of sensible class design.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Didn't look at the monk too closely yet, so I can't say much about your points. I want to add one, though:

Ki Strike should give an untyped bonus. Conditional is just WAY too common. The whole base line Ki power becomes useless if you have an inspiring Bard or Bless casting Cleric in the party, both very likely even at level 1.

Getting +1 to one attack for a very limited number of strikes per day really doesn't seem too bad.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Is "Ki Strike" sufficiently non-mystical that we can just give it to everyone? Other people get better spell point powers just built into the class without a feat investment. Either that or just no longer make it a prereq for all the other ki powers? It's a pretty bad feat (you get +1 to hit fewer than 6 times per day)

Secret Wizard wrote:

However, all Monks need to keep DEX maxed to avoid getting critted out of this world early on. There's no two ways about it.

If you want to be a Monk that doesn't max DEX, you are inviting death.
If Rogues didn't have Finesse Striker and didn't max STR, they'd be fine anyway.
So I'm not seeing why you are making an exception for the latter but are so dead-set on the former.

How much would it help to start Monks as masters of unarmored defense and just give them legendary at 13th (When fighters start getting legendary weapon proficiency) then just coming up with a different feature for level 17.

Biggest problem seems to be "before you can afford Bracers of Armor" so more on the front end would help.


I agree that Ki Strike is very underwhelming and is really the 2e playtest equivalent of the 1e 'Combat Expertise' as a feat tax for mystic monks. It's a boring and underpowered feat tax you have to pay in order to get the fun Ki stuff in higher levels.

Perhaps it just needs to be buffed. I would think of something like:

Class Feat
Ki Initiate:

By tapping into a supernatural inner reserve called ki, you can grow more powerful.

You gain a pool of Spell points with a capacity equal to either your Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom Modifier. This choice is made made when the pool is gained and cannot be changed later. You must also choose whether this Spell pool is divine or occult in nature.

You're trained in spell rolls and spell DCs for your ki powers, and your spell rolls and spell DCs use the modifier of the attribute picked when the Spell points were gained.

You also gain access to the Ki Strike or the Ki Dodge Powers.

New Power:
Ki Dodge Power 1
Casting: Reaction Verbal Casting
Trigger: You are attacked
You gain a +1 untyped bonus to your DC

This accomplishes the task of making the Ki entry feat more interesting and gives more options to the Monk player. Ki Strike and Ki Dodge should also be Level 1 Class Feats with Ki Initiate as a prerequisite so an interested player can pick up the other Ki power and really commit to the mystic monk fantasy if they wish. Heck it also reduces confusion between Ki Strike the Class Feat and Ki Strike the Power.

Edit: I also agree that DEX is a NECESSARY stat for Monks as they are right now. I tried making a STR/WIS damaging mystic monk but the AC was so low that I noped right out. (AC is super important as it prevents getting easily crit as well as easily hit!) This seems like a problem and either getting mental attributes to AC or getting early Master/Legendary Unarmed Defense would help lessen the pressure on DEX for the class and allow more variety of STR based builds.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

What's particularly galling is that 3 + Int is actually less skills than monks had in previous editions. Meanwhile, other classes are getting more skills than they did before.

All of the martial classes need more skills (except rogue, I guess). Skills are supposed to be how they can be versatile without spells, but the casters are getting more skills than the martials!

Signature skills are way too limited and limiting in general. You don't even get one for your background.

Regarding letting you use whatever mental stat you want... I could see doing that with archetypes down the road, but right out of the gate? None of the classes gets to pick which stat to use for their Spell Points, Powers and Spellcasting DCs, so it doesn't seem fair to let just the monk do so.

An option to let mystic monks get Wisdom to AC would be nice, I agree.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blave wrote:

Didn't look at the monk too closely yet, so I can't say much about your points. I want to add one, though:

Ki Strike should give an untyped bonus. Conditional is just WAY too common. The whole base line Ki power becomes useless if you have an inspiring Bard or Bless casting Cleric in the party, both very likely even at level 1.

Getting +1 to one attack for a very limited number of strikes per day really doesn't seem too bad.

Yeah, the fact it doesn't stack with many other sources IS an issue.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Is "Ki Strike" sufficiently non-mystical that we can just give it to everyone? Other people get better spell point powers just built into the class without a feat investment. Either that or just no longer make it a prereq for all the other ki powers? It's a pretty bad feat (you get +1 to hit fewer than 6 times per day)

Honestly, +1 to attack is not bad by itself, even if it's limited. Monks get really good proficiency to hit so it can help you land and crit with your Stunning Fists, so it's actually pretty sweet...

...but yeah, the fact it doesn't stack with many sources seems like an issue.

As for granting it baseline... I don't think particularly that the core Monk NEEDS more damage.

Possible Cabbage wrote:


How much would it help to start Monks as masters of unarmored defense and just give them legendary at 13th (When fighters start getting legendary weapon proficiency) then just coming up with a different feature for level 17.

Getting Monks on the same tier of defence as Rogues at the start of the game is not without a cost – you get to a point in which Rogue players are asking "Do Monks do everything my class does but better?"

They are both similar classes early on, with high TAC, low damage dice, and no armor. Sure, Rogues get obscene amounts of skills, but even Fighters have disadvantages in combat compared to Rogues, whereas the Monk wouldn't have.

So yeah, it'd be an odd spot to be in.

That's why I prefer a baseline reaction that grants AC (in combination with a WIS/INT/CHA-to-AC class feat).

Azih wrote:
I agree that Ki Strike is very underwhelming and is really the 2e playtest equivalent of the 1e 'Combat Expertise' as a feat tax for mystic monks. It's a boring and underpowered feat tax you have to pay in order to get the fun Ki stuff in higher levels.

Paizo has agreed that more entry level ki class feats should be added, so I haven't focused that much on Ki Strike on this thread.

I'll just like to remark that if it weren't for the fact that conditional bonuses are common, +1 to Attack on demand WIS-times a day is actually pretty good. Just really really unexciting.

As interesting a +AC ki power would be, I'd prefer to have a mundane parrying reaction – it makes sense that any Monk could react to an attack defensively.

Azih wrote:
Edit: I also agree that DEX is a NECESSARY stat for Monks as they are right now. I tried making a STR/WIS damaging mystic monk but the AC was so low that I noped right out. (AC is super important as it prevents getting easily crit as well as easily hit!) This seems like a problem and either getting mental attributes to AC or getting early Master/Legendary Unarmed Defense would help lessen the pressure on DEX for the class and allow more variety of STR based builds.

See my thoughts on early Master/Legendary above :P

The Narration wrote:


Regarding letting you use whatever mental stat you want... I could see doing that with archetypes down the road, but right out of the gate? None of the classes gets to pick which stat to use for their Spell Points, Powers and Spellcasting DCs, so it doesn't seem fair to let just the monk do so.

Regarding your comments in skills, I have nothing left to add other than I agree, but I'm ready to be convinced otherwise about 3 + INT being good for the game.

But no one can convince me that Monks don't need Occultism and Medicine (and Stealth!) on the Siggy Skill list.

Regarding Monks choosing stats and no other class doing it... I guess this is true, but I think that the Monk class needs a stronger thematic identity. Allowing them to convert a MENTAL ASPECT into a PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE would be a thing that strongly says "these guys are in another level".


After failing with math, people fail with reading. (Unless it has been errataed)

The Ki Strike power doesnt have a cost.

You can use it as often as you like as long you have the ability to do verbal casting (i.e. youre not silenced)

Both the Power description or the Feat say anything about having a cost, it just gives you your first access to Spell Points.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
RafaelBraga wrote:

After failing with math, people fail with reading. (Unless it has been errataed)

The Ki Strike power doesnt have a cost.

You can use it as often as you like as long you have the ability to do verbal casting (i.e. youre not silenced)

Both the Power description or the Feat say anything about having a cost, it just gives you your first access to Spell Points.

You gain the ki strike ki power (see page 234). This power is a type of special spell you can cast by spending Spell Points.

This is what the feat says(emphasis mine). That said, it doesn't say how many Spell Points you need to spend to use it, but it probably was intended to be one point, as opposed to zero.


I doesnt have a cost. So, as it stands, it costs 0.

Which would me more than ok, since you can do VERY powerful effects by 2 SP.

And bards can do the same, as an AoE, with 1 action.


Womp womp

It seems you failed at reading and math, Rafa.

Why don't you go ahead and make a thread asking for clearer wording instead of wilfully ignoring the text? Good faith is required in any tabletop.


8 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm wondering if we couldn't shore up monk defense at low levels by giving them something like the Swashbuckler's Dodging Panache as a entry level ki power. Basically as a reaction to being attacked, spend 1 ki and Step then increase your AC by some amount (which the attack resolves against.)

It's appropriately monk-ey since you're supposed to be the best at "moving around in combat", differentiates itself mechanically from the rogue reaction, and fulfills a core fantasy of the monk that you are preternaturally skilled at evading attacks by moving out of the way.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm wondering if we couldn't shore up monk defense at low levels by giving them something like the Swashbuckler's Dodging Panache as a entry level ki power. Basically as a reaction to being attacked, spend 1 ki and Step then increase your AC by some amount.

I'm having a browser issue where I try to favorite your post a million times but it's only making me favorite and unfavorite it, please help.

This would also give Monks A REACTION. Being able to REACT to things seems like a martial artist thing.


Bump cause mark is online


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Considering that ki strike costs a spell point, it is tremendously underwhelming.

My suggestion to make it more relevant: "The triggering attack does not suffer a multiple attack penalty; though it still progresses your multiple attack penalty." This approximates what it did for the 1e monk.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I had a chance to deep-dive into the monk class math last night, and found the class to be much better off in that department than at first glance. A main DEX, secondary STR monk using either of the agile stances is both offensively and defensively well-rounded.

While its attacks are slightly weaker at 1st level, dice quickly eclipse the -1 or -2 to damage of lower STR, and d8 agile attacks (plus the bonus attack due to flurry) surprisingly stack up well against the big d12 swings of the fighter or barb. By 8th level, they're only behind fighters in terms of damage (based on my calcs so far), and it roughly stays that way all the way to 20th. Let me reiterate that: monk damage is already very solid and doesn't need further buffs.

Defensively, you get AC on par with a Fighter (eventually catching up to a Pally), TAC better than anyone else, top-tier saves (plus evasion if you want to pick it up) due to your ability to be master is all saves by 15th and being able to bump up your DEX, CON and WIS every 5 levels without sweating about it (unlike classes that have STR, INT or CHA as their primary stat).

They have pretty solid self-sustain with Wholeness of Body, decent access to control effects via their various styles (tiger slash for a free shove effect, dragon roar for AoE intimidate, etc.), and some cute utility abilities (abundant step etc). Sure, they have some dud feats, but there are enough viable choices at each level that I didn't feel disappointed.

----

On the other hand, the STR monk seems a little bit weak defensively (though not dramatically so). Plus the payoff for being a STR monk appears to be some of the grappling bonuses (Crushing Grab, Sleeper Hold) that seem OK, a little bit of extra damage, and not a whole lot else.

Its a bit of a shame that you have dud feats that stack badly or not at all with things your party is providing: Ki Strike (no good with inspire courage, bless), Dragon Stance, Diamond Soul, and Enlightened Presence (no good with heroism).


@Cellion:

Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?)

How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cellion wrote:

I had a chance to deep-dive into the monk class math last night, and found the class to be much better off in that department than at first glance. A main DEX, secondary STR monk using either of the agile stances is both offensively and defensively well-rounded.

While its attacks are slightly weaker at 1st level, dice quickly eclipse the -1 or -2 to damage of lower STR, and d8 agile attacks (plus the bonus attack due to flurry) surprisingly stack up well against the big d12 swings of the fighter or barb. By 8th level, they're only behind fighters in terms of damage (based on my calcs so far), and it roughly stays that way all the way to 20th. Let me reiterate that: monk damage is already very solid and doesn't need further buffs.

Defensively, you get AC on par with a Fighter (eventually catching up to a Pally), TAC better than anyone else, top-tier saves (plus evasion if you want to pick it up) due to your ability to be master is all saves by 15th and being able to bump up your DEX, CON and WIS every 5 levels without sweating about it (unlike classes that have STR, INT or CHA as their primary stat).

They have pretty solid self-sustain with Wholeness of Body, decent access to control effects via their various styles (tiger slash for a free shove effect, dragon roar for AoE intimidate, etc.), and some cute utility abilities (abundant step etc). Sure, they have some dud feats, but there are enough viable choices at each level that I didn't feel disappointed.

----

On the other hand, the STR monk seems a little bit weak defensively (though not dramatically so). Plus the payoff for being a STR monk appears to be some of the grappling bonuses (Crushing Grab, Sleeper Hold) that seem OK, a little bit of extra damage, and not a whole lot else.

Its a bit of a shame that you have dud feats that stack badly or not at all with things your party is providing: Ki Strike (no good with inspire courage, bless), Dragon Stance, Diamond Soul, and Enlightened Presence (no good with heroism).

the monk i'm building up for a test this weekend is actually a STR based monk that will try to exploit Improved Combat grab (from fighter multi) and Whirling Throw for extra damage and battlefield manipulation

LoreKeeper wrote:

Considering that ki strike costs a spell point, it is tremendously underwhelming.

My suggestion to make it more relevant: "The triggering attack does not suffer a multiple attack penalty; though it still progresses your multiple attack penalty." This approximates what it did for the 1e monk.

because a potential +8 attack for a single Ki point would be broken


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
LoreKeeper wrote:

@Cellion:

Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?)

How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?

Oh man, looking again I see that Second Path to Perfection doesn't do what I thought it did! I guess that's actually master in two saves at 15th. Not quite as good.

As for the calcs, they're in a working spreadsheet and a bit disorganized. I've split out a large portion looking at fighter, barb and monk and put them in a shared file AT THIS LINK if you want to try to follow them.


LoreKeeper wrote:

@Cellion:

Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?)

How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?

Rogue multiclass.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Womp womp

It seems you failed at reading and math, Rafa.

Why don't you go ahead and make a thread asking for clearer wording instead of wilfully ignoring the text? Good faith is required in any tabletop.

Could you please reproduce the text where the cost of the ability is?

I cant find in the entire book.

All abilities with costs, specially powers, have it cost written usually both at the power and at the feat that gives access to both.

This power have neither. It only cost is a free verbal action that you take just before the attack roll.

Feel free to quote the text otherwise if it is on the book.


RafaelBraga wrote:

All abilities with costs, specially powers, have it cost written usually both at the power and at the feat that gives access to both.

This power have neither. It only cost is a free verbal action that you take just before the attack roll.

I've quickly reviewed the ki powers. None of them have a ki cost specified at the power; except if the power gives additional ways to spend ki (e.g. Abundant Step (dimensional steps) can increase distance with more ki spent).

...

If what you said is true, then there is nothing preventing the monk from using the ki strike on every attack (it is a free action after all).

At the feat they could've just said "The monk gets a pool of spell points [bla..]; and a +1 conditional bonus to all attacks".


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cellion wrote:

I had a chance to deep-dive into the monk class math last night, and found the class to be much better off in that department than at first glance. A main DEX, secondary STR monk using either of the agile stances is both offensively and defensively well-rounded.

While its attacks are slightly weaker at 1st level, dice quickly eclipse the -1 or -2 to damage of lower STR, and d8 agile attacks (plus the bonus attack due to flurry) surprisingly stack up well against the big d12 swings of the fighter or barb. By 8th level, they're only behind fighters in terms of damage (based on my calcs so far), and it roughly stays that way all the way to 20th. Let me reiterate that: monk damage is already very solid and doesn't need further buffs.

Defensively, you get AC on par with a Fighter (eventually catching up to a Pally), TAC better than anyone else, top-tier saves (plus evasion if you want to pick it up) due to your ability to be master is all saves by 15th and being able to bump up your DEX, CON and WIS every 5 levels without sweating about it (unlike classes that have STR, INT or CHA as their primary stat).

They have pretty solid self-sustain with Wholeness of Body, decent access to control effects via their various styles (tiger slash for a free shove effect, dragon roar for AoE intimidate, etc.), and some cute utility abilities (abundant step etc). Sure, they have some dud feats, but there are enough viable choices at each level that I didn't feel disappointed.

----

On the other hand, the STR monk seems a little bit weak defensively (though not dramatically so). Plus the payoff for being a STR monk appears to be some of the grappling bonuses (Crushing Grab, Sleeper Hold) that seem OK, a little bit of extra damage, and not a whole lot else.

Its a bit of a shame that you have dud feats that stack badly or not at all with things your party is providing: Ki Strike (no good with inspire courage, bless), Dragon Stance, Diamond Soul, and Enlightened Presence (no good with heroism).

I have no qualms with late game math.

And early game math for the STR Monk is pretty sad. There's also the fact that not everyone will optimize to an 18 DEX even on DEX builds.

That's why I believe that right now the biggest liability for monks is the lack of an early game reaction-based defense .

AC aside, ranged weapon proficiency, ability score versatility, and signature skill restrictions are still issues.


1. Agreed

2. Agreed, along with Stealth too

3. Agreed on making Monks DEX or WIS(You may use DEX or WIS on your AC/TAC, and all attacks with Agile Weapons), disagreed on INT and CHA.

4. Agreed. Alternatively, require class feats to gain higher proficiency with those weapons (along with other benefits)

5. Nah, they're fine

6. Agreed

7. eeeh. not sure I agree or disagree with this one.

8. A Monk that has Wind Jump, Assurance[Athletics], and Legendary Athletics[level 15], can Fly. No roll to maintain flight needed. A +4 to jumping is fine for lower levels, but it's definitely outclassed later on.

9. Agreed on Tongue. Combine Wall Run and Wind Step into a single Class Feat.

10. It's honestly kinda hard to justify using weapons over your fists, unless it's shurikens for the range, bo staff for the AC reaction bonus, or Kama, Kukri, or nunchaku, for their tripping/disarming properties.

Having said all this, I'd add that Wild Winds Stance is an absolutely horrible feat choice. Needing to pay 1 Spell Point to make a single attack at range is simply not worth it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think you're wrong on Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I certainly pick it for my character.

If you played the playtest a bit you may have realized that speaking different languages is a scarce skill. The typical character will have 2 languages at the start - and then you can learn more languages by getting trained in Society and picking the skill feat Multilingual for 2 more languages. You could take the feat multiple times.


LoreKeeper wrote:

I think you're wrong on Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I certainly pick it for my character.

If you played the playtest a bit you may have realized that speaking different languages is a scarce skill. The typical character will have 2 languages at the start - and then you can learn more languages by getting trained in Society and picking the skill feat Multilingual for 2 more languages. You could take the feat multiple times.

3 languages with int 14

On our group we had 2 players with 2 and 2 with 3.

It actually felt good that not everyone was a polyglot.

But we didn't feel the need for more. I assume at later levels, tongues and elixirs can mitigate most "uncommon language" barriers though. Especially with the versatility of a wizard being able to switch on of his low level spells for tongues if a need to converse with something weird arises.


Has anybody found out if Flurry of Blows takes the -5 multiattack penalty?


Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Has anybody found out if Flurry of Blows takes the -5 multiattack penalty?

as written it does.


I think maybe making you Wisdom bonus be treated as an armor bonus might help with early ac problems. Just make that bonus not stack with bracers of armor or armor.

Wouldnt mnd ki strike if it remove the multiattack penalty from flurry of blows


One thing I will note is that while it turns on a bit late (level 8 minimum) Monastic Weapons is not the only source of ranged attacks Monks have. The Wild Winds Stance Ki Power Stance gives you 1d4 Agile Propulsive ranged attacks up to 30 feet as long as you maintain the Stance. It costs 1 Spell Point to enter the stance, isn't quite as powerful as Shuriken, and has less max range than Shuriken, but it's still a pretty decent option and works with the same Handwraps you're probably using for your other unarmed strikes anyways. And Wild Winds Stance leads into Wild Winds Gust, a decent Cone attack for those whose attack rolls are a lot better than their class DCs.


Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
Has anybody found out if Flurry of Blows takes the -5 multiattack penalty?

Flurry of Blows does take the -5 multiple attack penalty - but the majority of monk unarmed strikes are also agile; so it is only a -4 penalty.


I believe if you spend 3 actions to flurry, then attack 2 more times with agile strikes, your progression is:

Full, -4, -8, -8.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Literal first post on the site... would we lose anything at all from having the Monastic Weaponry feat just be part of the initial proficiencies for the class? Because the weapons don't give much to the class as it stands, except for range, and as written, the monk isn't even proficient with simple weapons.

To recap, that's a group that includes the dagger and the club, weapons that don't appear on the monk weapon list, both of which are pretty basic martial artsy fare, especially the club. The sorcerer is proficient with simple weapons. The wizard is proficient with club and dagger. The rogue and bard both get their traditional, very scattered lists, cherry-picking appropriate weapons, what's the problem with doing something similar for the monk?

Edit: I should add that I just wanted to give support for the same thought in the original post, and also point out a little bit of weirdness in the way that the weapons are laid out.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I believe if you spend 3 actions to flurry, then attack 2 more times with agile strikes, your progression is:

Full, -4, -8, -8.

I see some folks use -5 for the MAP and some -4. Is this coming from disparate rules in the book. Like Paizo tweaked it at some point and folks are reading conflicting things?


Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I believe if you spend 3 actions to flurry, then attack 2 more times with agile strikes, your progression is:

Full, -4, -8, -8.

I see some folks use -5 for the MAP and some -4. Is this coming from disparate rules in the book. Like Paizo tweaked it at some point and folks are reading conflicting things?

Agile reduces the MAP by 1, and most unarmed strikes are agile; if you are using Dragon Stance or Mountain Stance it would be -5.

1 to 50 of 113 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Player Rules / Classes / [Monk] Quick Summary of Possible Design Issues All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.