If you recommend playing a Wizard to a player who wants to play Batman, you have no business making recommendations.

[Haywire build generator]

"common sense"

I do not recognize that term.

[Claxon]

I'm not sure exactly what happened to you to make you so angry about this, and while I agree I wouldn't normally peg Batman as a wizard, but you can make a lot of characters in a lot of different ways and I wouldn't say it's flat out wrong.

[SheepishEidolon]

Yes, it's good to listen to what a player actually wants and not just recommend the "best" class. No disagreement so far. Of course you should warn the player if:

a) the character concept not really works in Pathfinder (character who avoids magical items)
b) the power level or style won't fit the campaign (gunslingers etc.) or
c) the concept will negatively impact fellow players' or the GM's fun (necromancer vs. paladin etc.)

With the great amount of material it should usually be possible to figure something out.

That said, I agree with Claxon: There are (usually) many ways. A player could pick up the challenge and build Batman based on a wizard, without even casting much. A quick draft:

Spoiler:

Transmutation school with enhancement subschool, craft your own Batman gear (including Arcane Builder discovery), throw in some quickened buffs later. Get Arcane Strike for some extra oomph, compensate the low amount of attacks with Two-Weapon Fighting, and pick up any unarmed style you like and which doesn't require a high BAB. There are also a bunch of magic items which can help you with punching and kicking (or melee in general) - and hey, you can craft some of them yourself.

[Reverse]

The phrase "Batman Wizard" refers to a Wizard who is crazy-prepared for every eventuality (like some of the higher-powered comic runs of Batman), not literally a Wizard who dresses up in a mask and fights crime with his martial arts skills.

[Reksew_Trebla]

Claxon wrote:

I'm not sure exactly what happened to you to make you so angry about this, and while I agree I wouldn't normally peg Batman as a wizard, but you can make a lot of characters in a lot of different ways and I wouldn't say it's flat out wrong.

The internet pissed me off. I did a basic google search “pathfinder batman” and the first 5 pages in the search results were about playing a wizard to be Batman. Since a lot of those results were on this very site, and not wanting to bring back those topics, I decided to make a new topic. The fact remains that mechanically and general fluffwise, a wizard does not suit Batman at all.

[Meirril]

Lets get to the real crux of the problem: Pathfinder is not a super hero game. Also, Batman is a totally broken concept for a character.

If you want Batman, go play Champions. Even then, to make a 'real' Batman you need a stupid amount of points spent in places that will make you less effective as a hero. Not Superman vs Batman kind of divide in power, but that is because you can't really make Superman in Champions either without spending an even larger boatload of points in silly stuff. Its amazing how much baggage a 70 year old Super Hero carries around.

While there is no perfect class in Pathfinder to make a Batman style character (its attitude mostly, right?) there are a few classes that stand out. The new Vigilante comes to mind. Of course you could just make a Rogue. Or a Slayer. Or heck, an Inquisitor. But if you want the old formula of "I study my target and return to my Batcave so I can use Batgadgets to defeat the villan" no class does that like a Wizard.

So really, it depends on what YOU think a Batman type character should be like. After all, its YOUR character, and to each person its going to be their own opinion. And making an entire thread to complain about it seems...

[Slim Jim]

Meirril wrote:

Lets get to the real crux of the problem: Pathfinder is not a super hero game.

It is most certainly a superpowered one; most well-built high-level characters are capable of mopping the floor with any "super" who's not top-tier Justice League material.

Quote:

Also, Batman is a totally broken concept for a character.

Bruce Wayne is a reasonably tough martial who is also rich enough to basically purchase whatever he needs to hang with the really broken characters...who could still kill him in an instant if they chose to.

The Vigilante class is appropriate for a dual-identity concept (although Batman is obviously multiclassed, with at least one level apiece of Samurai, NInja, and two of Paladin -- because Bats makes his saves like a boss).

[Meirril]

Slim Jim wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Lets get to the real crux of the problem: Pathfinder is not a super hero game.

It is most certainly a superpowered one; most well-built high-level characters are capable of mopping the floor with any "super" who's not top-tier Justice League material.

In Pathfinder, and D&D before it, you go from being an absolute noob to nearly a god. Tell me which first level character is a superhero? Folk hero is more like it, and even that is stretching at first.

This is a completely different genre. If you want to put a square peg in a round hole that is on you, but getting upset when it doesn't fit seems childish.

Also Batman is a no-go for Paladin. Guy breaks the laws all the time, unless you think 'breaking and entering', 'trespassing' and 'assault and battery' aren't crimes. Or that whole thing where he avoids the law when he's wanted. Batman is Chaotic Good with an unhealthy fixation on his own definition of 'justice'. His personality is a lot easier to detail out in superhero games too.

[Skull]

The title made me LOL.

I made a batman themed Ninja for PFS ages ago.

He was a Half-Orc who took Perform dance, fought with improved unarmed strike and took Vanish the 1st chance he got.

Currently I would make a martial artist if I wanted to recreate the character.

[ErichAD]

Batman is obviously a Psychometrist Vigilante.

[Slim Jim]

Meirril wrote:

Also Batman is a no-go for Paladin. Guy breaks the laws all the time, unless you think 'breaking and entering', 'trespassing' and 'assault and battery' aren't crimes.

That's another argument for another thread (and it's been done before).

[Dragonchess Player]

ErichAD wrote:

Batman is obviously a Psychometrist Vigilante.

Psychometrist vigilante works.

So does investigator (reflavor elixirs as gadgets).

[Cavall]

Doesn't matter what you choose for the Batman.

Mutagenic Mauler with the bonebreaker feat will give him permission to die.

[dragonhunterq]

To be fair, modern day batman doesn't use magic, but you can bet medieval batman would, even if only via maxed out umd.

[Saffron Marvelous]

If you want to capture the crazy prep junk, being a wizard is pretty much the way to go for your Batman in a pre-industrial setting where magic is the technology. Hell, BATMAN did it at least once, demonstrating that Batman believes magic is the best way to be Batman in absence of modern technology. Anytime you say X Marvel or DC Superhero wouldn't Y, there are at least a dozen miniseries' that spontaneously spring into existence where they do exactly that.

Though to be fair, I'd probably suggest something like alchemist to the player at that point.

I DID make a sort of Batman character once when my players went into a seedy, crime-infested city. I did him as an unrogue/unmonk with dimensional savant so not big on gadgets, but more on the ambush tactics with coming out of the night and being everywhere at once. He beat up the party's lich a bit before failing a save against Destruction.

Edit: TBH though, I've never found Batman's prep successes terribly believable, and they frequently rely on massive narrative contrivance to make him look smarter than he is.

[blahpers]

People get bent out of shape over the strangest things.

[Ssalarn]

There are a lot of different mechanical paths to fulfill a trope. Wizard is a very viable way to Batman, since one of the more effective wizard strategies is storing up various situational consumables similar to the ever-versatile utility belt, and it's not terribly difficult to make a wizard who can punch people. It's not terribly different than people who use the magus class to play a ninja or the bard class to play a canny military tactician. One of the big Batman tropes is that he always has a backup plan, and that's basically the wizard's schtick as well: with proper planning he has an answer for every situation.

Now, if I were playing Batman I'd probably go with a vigilante or slayer with maxed out UMD, black market connections, Master Craftsman, and Craft Wondrous Item, but there's a lot of ways to get to the same idea.

[wraithstrike]

Meirril wrote:

Slim Jim wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Lets get to the real crux of the problem: Pathfinder is not a super hero game.

It is most certainly a superpowered one; most well-built high-level characters are capable of mopping the floor with any "super" who's not top-tier Justice League material.

In Pathfinder, and D&D before it, you go from being an absolute noob to nearly a god. Tell me which first level character is a superhero? Folk hero is more like it, and even that is stretching at first.

This is a completely different genre. If you want to put a square peg in a round hole that is on you, but getting upset when it doesn't fit seems childish.

Also Batman is a no-go for Paladin. Guy breaks the laws all the time, unless you think 'breaking and entering', 'trespassing' and 'assault and battery' aren't crimes. Or that whole thing where he avoids the law when he's wanted. Batman is Chaotic Good with an unhealthy fixation on his own definition of 'justice'. His personality is a lot easier to detail out in superhero games too.

Paladins also break laws. Most bad guys just dont have the political connections to put them in jail

[Melkiador]

Occultist may be a good option for Batman. Seems the best way to emulate the gadgets to me.

[Lynxden]

We have a gestalt campaign coming up where one of the players wanted to do the Batman thing. We decided on focusing on the "batman" aspect, forgoing the bruce wayne side of the character, since they really are two different characters anyway. He went Investigator//Ranger. Using the alchemy and a bunch of magic devices for his 'tech' stuff. We all see Batman as the guy who uses every tool at his disposal to get the job done.

That said, definitely not a wizard. Too much melee prowess. He's going with unarmed strikes and "dual-wielding" to emulate the punchyness. Lots of toys to enhance various things, and enchanted items and spell-effect items to emulate batman's gear. It seems to work really well and the player is happy with the outcome.

[Dave Justus]

If Superman is a Paladin and Wonder woman is a Barbarian, then Batman's ability to give and take damage in a melee is significantly less than a wizards 1/2 BAB and 1d6 HP.

Frame of reference is key.

When someone says 'The want to be Batman' the key is to zero in what that means to them. If it turns out they want to play someone who can figure things out, has abilities that can provide solutions for nearly every problem and counts on being prepared rather than just physical might, then wizard is a pretty good option.

[Ssalarn]

Dave Justus wrote:

If Superman is a Paladin and Wonder woman is a Barbarian, then Batman's ability to give and take damage in a melee is significantly less than a wizards 1/2 BAB and 1d6 HP.

I actually agree with the point of your post, but....

TLDR- If Superman is a Paladin and Wonder Woman is a Barbarian, then Batman is definitely a Wizard, but mostly because of the limitations of the analogy.

Given the amount of damage Batman can take and deal compared to Wonder Woman and Superman, I'd actually say that Wizard is a perfect fit for Batman in that analogy. The two full BAB classes can shatter mere mortals, while Batman can occasionally break a guy's jaw with a well-placed punch. Wonder Woman can take an entire spray of bullets with little or no harm, Batman needs to hope they don't hit or that his body armor absorbs enough of the impact that he can continue to function. Given that Batman is supposed to be a pretty impressive specimen of humanity topping 6 feet and pretty beefy, 1/2 BAB with an 18 STR is a pretty good approximation of his punching power.

TLDR- If Superman is a Paladin and Wonder Woman is a Barbarian, then Batman is definitely a Wizard, but mostly because of the limitations of the analogy.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

The iconic wizard is a man.

Wizards are one of the core classes that get familiars.

Bat is one of the core familiar options.

Bat + Man = Batman

Ergo, Batman Wizards are fully supported by the Core rules.

[Meirril]

wraithstrike wrote:

Paladins also break laws. Most bad guys just dont have the political connections to put them in jail

And if you have a decent GM that actually keeps the Paladin Code in mind those are ex-paladins. Unless you are actively fighting against the rulers of the land BECAUSE they are unjust a Paladin can't ignore a Lawful, Just authority.

While you can argue that Gothem Police Department has corrupt officials in among its ranks, Batman isn't fighting against the police. He isn't trying to clean up city hall. He is trying to assist them. He isn't a rebel trying to overthrow a corrupt government, he's trying to fight crime and clear criminals.

Also Batman clearly has no trouble breaking laws when its convenient for his investigation. Paladins don't break laws just because its convenient. They have to have strong justification to do so. Batman just needs a suspicion. Not to mention that he spies on his fellow crime fighters, often knowing their full secret identity and weaknesses. That sort of paranoia doesn't sit well with the whole image of a Paladin, bastion of all that is good and just.

[Kaouse]

Wizard is easily the best way to build Batman.

Bruce Wayne = Normal form (Your apparent physical weakness only accentuates this disguise)

Batman Getup = Adjustable Disguise (who needs to be a Vigilante when you have this?)

Martial Capability = Emblem of Greed / Transformation (especially with the Idealize Discovery, since Batman is in some ways, an ideal)

Stealth Skills = Greater Invisibility / Penumbral Disguise / Impenetrable Veil (the last one is essentially the ninja capstone as a 10 min/level spell)

Bat Cave = Create Demiplane (Can't get more hidden than that)

Utility Belt = Insert other spells here.

Seriously, what more do you want? Wizard is always a good recommendation almost for anything. Hell, there's a thread on Reddit about using a Wizard to emulate a g+$###n Gundam Wing Pilot. Wizards of high enough level can do literally anything and everything.

[wraithstrike]

Meirril wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Paladins also break laws. Most bad guys just dont have the political connections to put them in jail

And if you have a decent GM that actually keeps the Paladin Code in mind those are ex-paladins. Unless you are actively fighting against the rulers of the land BECAUSE they are unjust a Paladin can't ignore a Lawful, Just authority.

While you can argue that Gothem Police Department has corrupt officials in among its ranks, Batman isn't fighting against the police. He isn't trying to clean up city hall. He is trying to assist them. He isn't a rebel trying to overthrow a corrupt government, he's trying to fight crime and clear criminals.

Also Batman clearly has no trouble breaking laws when its convenient for his investigation. Paladins don't break laws just because its convenient. They have to have strong justification to do so. Batman just needs a suspicion. Not to mention that he spies on his fellow crime fighters, often knowing their full secret identity and weaknesses. That sort of paranoia doesn't sit well with the whole image of a Paladin, bastion of all that is good and just.

Paladin code interpretations are subjective. Nice try though. The code says they lose their powers for "Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act."

Breaking a law doesn't mean that you lose your powers. It doesn't even say you have to act with honor to keep your powers. It is there to give guidance on what is expected.

When you have a quote that says this let me know about it. "A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly breaks laws."

Right now all you have is "how you think the game should be". You don't have anything to include developer commentary to say that breaking laws = loss of powers.

[Melkiador]

There’s more to the code.

Quote:

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

If you are breaking the laws of a legitimate authority, then you aren’t respecting it.

[Matthew Downie]

Kaouse wrote:

Wizard is easily the best way to build Batman.

Bruce Wayne = Normal form (Your apparent physical weakness only accentuates this disguise)

Batman Getup = Adjustable Disguise (who needs to be a Vigilante when you have this?)

Martial Capability = Emblem of Greed / Transformation (especially with the Idealize Discovery, since Batman is in some ways, an ideal)

Stealth Skills = Greater Invisibility / Penumbral Disguise / Impenetrable Veil (the last one is essentially the ninja capstone as a 10 min/level spell)

Bat Cave = Create Demiplane (Can't get more hidden than that)

Utility Belt = Insert other spells here.

Seriously, what more do you want?

Limitations.

Batman is the guy who has to use his wits to overcome his lack of superpowers.

Bruce Wayne = Your PC dressed in normal clothes.

Batman Getup = Your PC wearing a mask.

Martial Capability = Any martial class.

Stealth Skills = Stealth skill.

Bat Cave = A cave.

Utility Belt = Some items.

[wraithstrike]

Melkiador wrote:

There’s more to the code.

Quote:

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

If you are breaking the laws of a legitimate authority, then you aren’t respecting it.

Legitimate is subjective so we're still back to GM Fiat, and nothings says the rest of the code can make you fall, which is why I didn't print it.

As long as you've seen me post here you already knew that I was aware of the rest of the code.

So back to the main point. Paladins break laws, and the person(aka Meirril) I was responding to never called out legitimate laws.

With that being said we all know that no matter if the area is being ruled by a good or bad person the PC's often murder people without permission from the local government.

Are they doing a good thing most of the time?

I'd say yes.

Are they still breaking the law?

Yes

Can this law be in the area that is governed by a good ruler?

Yes.

Therefore some paladins break laws.

[Daeryon]

You could build batman out of several classes any more. Not sure how old the orignal debate is, but Wizard would be one of them. Off the top of my head:

Easy batmen:
Vigilante (duh).
Investigator.
Rogue.
Brawler
Alchemist
Ninja

A couple slight modifications batmen:
Wizard
Slayer
Arcanist
Occultist

It's a stretch but you can kinda make a batman:
Sorcerer
Bard

[Soulgear]

My problem with suggesting the wizard class for Batman is martial prowess.

Can a wizard, or any other 1/2 BAB class, even with the help of magic, approach the martial ability displayed by Batman?

Never in a million years. Not without some serious dips, but then he wouldn't be a wizard then, would he.

Can wizards emulate some of the things Batman is capable of? Sure.

But if one wanted to make Batman, choosing wizard would only handicap you, and in the end, would only end up with another Dr. Strange.

[Darkbridger]

The internet pisses everyone off. That's because it's full of recommendations and opinions, and there is at least one out there for everyone to get bent out of shape about. Let's turn this around...

If you recommend someone has no business making recommendations, you really need to stay off the internet. Your blood pressure will thank you.

At this point, there are plenty of ways to make a wizard feasible in melee, and not all of them involve spells. Also, by the later levels of the game, melee does not matter nearly as much anyway, so Batman is going to be relying on devices and effects more than slugging a guy in the face at that point. Everyone knows full casters own the last 5 levels of the game. You want to build a Martial Batman go ahead, but by the end of the game the Wizards will out-skill him, out-prep him, out-control him, and out-damage him, probably in that order.

Oh look, I just made a recommendation... whoops... sorry about that. Fortunately it wasn't a serious one and full of hyperbole, but that's normal with these things. <shrug>

[Name Violation]

Fighter 2 wizard 8 Eldritch knight 10 (taken ftr2 wiz5 EK10 wiz3) could probably also use Slayer instead of fighter.
Personally I like unbreakable fighter and diviner wizard. But almost any archetypes work.

You get a 16 BAB and 9th level spells. High stats help Batman stand out from average Joe. Magical knack and highlander traits work good here. Ranks in UMD and intimidate.

Take a couple crafting feats. Take combat feats. Improved unarmed strike, improved initiative, whatever. Arcane armor training helps.

Use funds to maximize hp with retraining rules since Bats is rich.
Boom. Batman is a wizard

[Nathanael Love]

I don't believe we are this far in and no one has pointed out that Batman is clearly an Investigator-Monk-Ninja.

[Val'bryn2]

As for talking about the martial capabilities of Batman, it kind of needs to be said that his primary opponents are, at best 3rd level warriors. A 6th level Wizard is equal to them in combat. The main Rogue's Gallery who usually engage him in hand to hand combat are Ra's al Ghul, Killer Croc, and Bane. He's usually outmatched in brute force by the last two. Pretty much everyone else has no special skill in combat. Yeah, Penguin has used sword-umbrellas before, but he's still an out-of-shape normal human.

[Val'bryn2]

As for talking about the martial capabilities of Batman, it kind of needs to be said that his primary opponents are, at best, 3rd level warriors. A 6th level Wizard is equal to them in combat. The main Rogue's Gallery who usually engage him in hand to hand combat are Ra's al Ghul, Killer Croc, and Bane. He's usually outmatched in brute force by the last two. Pretty much everyone else has no special skill in combat. Yeah, Penguin has used sword-umbrellas before, but he's still an out-of-shape normal human.

[blahpers]

Also, this classic is obligatory in any thread involving Batman and alignment.

Edit: Oh hey, someone actually tracked down the sources!

[Daeryon]

The hard thing to do would be to make Batman out of a Summoner. Next to that, Wizard is EASY.

[Cuup]

blahpers wrote:

People get bent out of shape over the strangest things.

What is THAT supposed to mean?!?

[ccs]

If I had a player wanting to play Batman I wouldn't recommend anything PF. Rather I'd suggest we play any of the dedicated Superhero games published....

[Ssalarn]

Daeryon wrote:

The hard thing to do would be to make Batman out of a Summoner. Next to that, Wizard is EASY.

Synthesist, and the eidolon is both the costume and utility belt.

[Meirril]

wraithstrike wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

There’s more to the code.

Quote:

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

If you are breaking the laws of a legitimate authority, then you aren’t respecting it.

Legitimate is subjective so we're still back to GM Fiat, and nothings says the rest of the code can make you fall, which is why I didn't print it.

As long as you've seen me post here you already knew that I was aware of the rest of the code.

So back to the main point. Paladins break laws, and the person(aka Meirril) I was responding to never called out legitimate laws.

With that being said we all know that no matter if the area is being ruled by a good or bad person the PC's often murder people without permission from the local government.

Are they doing a good thing most of the time?

I'd say yes.

Are they still breaking the law?

Yes

Can this law be in the area that is governed by a good ruler?

Yes.

Therefore some paladins break laws.

Wow. We know what the rules say but we'll ignore them until someone actually quotes them to us? Even though I went through the argument to support that Batman doesn't question the legitimacy of the Gothem Police Department, isn't fighting against the authorities, isn't questioning the laws, but because I didn't say LEGITIMACY you're going to pretend the argument has no bearing on this?

That is some powerful convincing argumentation there. And most of the time adventurers wouldn't be charged with murder because the circumstances excuse their actions. If they would be charged with murder by an impartial judge, the paladin would be required by the code to try and stop them. The paladin should actually feel compelled to turn them in.

Paladins should look for how to uphold the code to the best of their ability. Not how to twist it to allow them to act in a questionable manner. And if they ever get into a situation where they can't help but break the code, they should follow their most noble intention and fall with grace and hope for atonement later.

[wraithstrike]

Meirril wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

There’s more to the code.

Quote:

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

If you are breaking the laws of a legitimate authority, then you aren’t respecting it.

Legitimate is subjective so we're still back to GM Fiat, and nothings says the rest of the code can make you fall, which is why I didn't print it.

As long as you've seen me post here you already knew that I was aware of the rest of the code.

So back to the main point. Paladins break laws, and the person(aka Meirril) I was responding to never called out legitimate laws.

With that being said we all know that no matter if the area is being ruled by a good or bad person the PC's often murder people without permission from the local government.

Are they doing a good thing most of the time?

I'd say yes.

Are they still breaking the law?

Yes

Can this law be in the area that is governed by a good ruler?

Yes.

Therefore some paladins break laws.

Wow. We know what the rules say but we'll ignore them until someone actually quotes them to us? Even though I went through the argument to support that Batman doesn't question the legitimacy of the Gothem Police Department, isn't fighting against the authorities, isn't questioning the laws, but because I didn't say LEGITIMACY you're going to pretend the argument has no bearing on this?

That is some powerful convincing argumentation there. And most of the time adventurers wouldn't be charged with murder because the circumstances excuse their actions. If they would be charged with murder by an impartial judge, the paladin would be required by the code to try and stop them. The paladin should actually feel compelled to turn them in.

Paladins should look...

So first no laws were broken. Now you want to say the actions were excused.

We call that moving the goalpost here.

Admittedly I was being pedantic intentionally at first because I found your argument to not make much sense. Later I decided to actually break it down, in my last post, and show how paladins do the same things you said stop Batman from being a paladin.

Just as a reminder you said "Also Batman is a no-go for Paladin. Guy breaks the laws all the time, unless you think 'breaking and entering', 'trespassing' and 'assault and battery' aren't crimes."

You called out Batman not being able to be a paladin because of specific crimes mentioned in your above quote. The paladin does the same things.

How are paladins not able to work with the Batman concept if they're doing the same things?

You can stop now. No need to even reply. You have nothing except for your interpretation which would have Paladins falling in a fair amount of publish adventures.

[SteelGuts]

There was a Prestige Class in 3.5 in the Divine Codex if I recall correctly that was basically a Lawful Good Paladin/Harsh Vigilante. Avenging Crusader or something. There was even a kind of Holy Murderer. I don’t remember the name but maybe someone here will?

And if you want to play Batman just go Vigilante. The iconic is basically Batman, you can see him chill as a rich bourgeois at day and brawl with criminals at night.

But maybe, just maybe, the point of comparing Batman to the Wizard was to make the analogy with « I am always prepared ». And only that.

[Meirril]

wraithstrike wrote:

So first no laws were broken. Now you want to say the actions were excused.

We call that moving the goalpost here.
Admittedly I was being pedantic intentionally at first because I found your argument to not make much sense. Later I decided to actually break it down, in my last post, and show how paladins do the same things you said stop Batman from being a paladin.

Just as a reminder you said "Also Batman is a no-go for Paladin. Guy breaks the laws all the time, unless you think 'breaking and entering', 'trespassing' and 'assault and battery' aren't crimes."

You called out Batman not being able to be a paladin because of specific crimes mentioned in your above quote. The paladin does the same things.

How are paladins not able to work with the Batman concept if they're doing the same things?

You can stop now. No need to even reply. You have nothing except for your interpretation which would have Paladins falling in a fair amount of publish adventures.

Really? Maybe because your strawman is falling apart? A paladin suspects that a crime is being committed in a town doesn't get excused for breaking laws to catch criminals. A paladin would need to alert the authorities or be granted authority to do so, since that would be the lawful way of doing it. Any Paladin that breaks into a warehouse just because they saw someone suspicious enter it has violated the code. Reporting their crimes and receiving judgement would be the natural results of their actions, not atonement.

I don't know what you envision a paladin to be, but I dare say your moral flexibility speaks volumes as to why you examine the code and consider why its there rather than how to make excuses for actions contrary to the code. They are known as restrictions because they do restrict your actions, far more stringently than simple alignment.

[Soulgear]

wraithstrike wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

There’s more to the code.

Quote:

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

If you are breaking the laws of a legitimate authority, then you aren’t respecting it.

Legitimate is subjective so we're still back to GM Fiat, and nothings says the rest of the code can make you fall, which is why I didn't print it.

As long as you've seen me post here you already knew that I was aware of the rest of the code.

So back to the main point. Paladins break laws, and the person(aka Meirril) I was responding to never called out legitimate laws.

With that being said we all know that no matter if the area is being ruled by a good or bad person the PC's often murder people without permission from the local government.

Are they doing a good thing most of the time?

I'd say yes.

Are they still breaking the law?

Yes

Can this law be in the area that is governed by a good ruler?

Yes.

Therefore some paladins break laws.

That's an odd argument. Rooting out evil in the name of justice is not murder.

You appear to be applying USA(or any other modern country) law to the Pathfinder setting. If PC's are being murder hobos, and actually murdering people, and NOT defending their lives or ending the life of an evil being (which is not murder in game sense), then it doesn't matter if laws are being broken or not as the party members are acting in an evil fashion.

Additionally, in the sense of breaking and entering, which Batman does all the time, this would violate the paladin code every single time there was no probable cause for doing so, i.e FIRE! Hearing someone screaming for help, etc. A paladin can't just break into places to investigate rumors, search for clues, or anything else for that matter, outside of special circumstances.

So no. Batman cannot, in any way shape or form be both a paladin and Batman simultaneously.

Can a paladin break the law? Absolutely! Only under the right circumstances.

Is killing an evil person who attacks you murder? Ummm...never. Ever.

[Val'bryn2]

It's not really a matter of the code. Batman doesn't respect the law, he flouts it, embezzles from his company to be Batman, and commits numerous crimes. He fails to be a paladin because he can't realistically be considered Lawful. I wouldn't even be comfortable calling him Good, because his method of dealing with the problem is essentially using tweezers to pull out the splinters when you've got a tree shoved through your chest. How much more could he have done donating a bat computer to the Gotham PD? Become an officer himself?

[Tarik Blackhands]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

It's not really a matter of the code. Batman doesn't respect the law, he flouts it, embezzles from his company to be Batman, and commits numerous crimes. He fails to be a paladin because he can't realistically be considered Lawful. I wouldn't even be comfortable calling him Good, because his method of dealing with the problem is essentially using tweezers to pull out the splinters when you've got a tree shoved through your chest. How much more could he have done donating a bat computer to the Gotham PD? Become an officer himself?

Yeah and how much better would life be if someone hooked Superman/the Flash to a giant treadmill and simply had them run at superspeed for infinite renewable energy rather than have them do such banal things like fight crime?

Cape comics are a lot like Pathfinder in general. Don't look at anything too closely because there's holes in the general logic you could drive the Batmobile through.

In the real world, no you can't just march over to the nearest evil business man and hang him out of a window. In superhero comics and for PF paladins though? Such actions are encouraged and exalted due to the general paradigm of punishing evil doers. Going down the rabbithole more than that ain't worth the time.

[Val'bryn2]

I think it's worth remembering as well that in medieval times, the law was what the king, prince, or lord said it was, not really the codified set we think of. As well, usually the rule of law ended just past the city gates.