where do you get that? in Southern France, they kept the Roman habit of written codes all along, and even in Northern France, each area had a Custom that could be opposed to the Lords if they tried playing hard and fast... it was a big thing for the kings to have all the local laws transferred to Paris, and written down if necessary so the Royal Justices could take them into account. Even the King was not above the Law.
The important part of the Batman is perfectly captured by the wizard class.
1. Exponential increase in strength with prep time.
2. Nearly unlimited money.
3. Smarter than everyone else in the party.
And hey, a level 8 wizard would beat Bruce Lee in a fist fight.
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Depends... the big thing in France, from the late Carolingian era to the reign of Louis XIV was for the king to take away law enforcement and justice rights away from the local Lords, and making sure things stayed that way... I don't know how it worked in England and Scotland, except that there was constant tension from the English barons to get more independent from the King than William I intended, and that lasted from William Rufus to Henry VII... of course, after that, it was the Commons that wanted power, resulting in the Cromwell era and the Glorious Revolution. Germany stayed thoroughly Feudal with no real central power until the Prussians united the country... but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
The King being accountable dates back to around 1000 when Hugh Capet rose to the throne... at the time , the King was more of a primus inter pares than the Divine Right absolute King Louis XIV ended up being. I don't really know about England, because the upheaval of 1066 broke earlier traditions, and may have set William up as absolute king, but that did not last, the Barons kept revolting.
What a peasant did not have was the means to enforce the recourse they were supposed to have... a serf was no better off than a slave... but a rich free peasant, if he could find protection, could always try and find recourse against his lord in the royal court. (or even the Lord's suzerain's court) Of course, the lord being judged by his peers, the peasant was unlikely to be found for, but that's something else altogether. THere are whole libraries on the history of Law that treat about this.
I wanted to talk about Batman, but it seems we've derailed into Paladinsplaining. Guys, can we get back to the point about Batman?
Someone find that alignment chart that has Batman in every category.
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Someone find that alignment chart that has Batman in every category.
The link is on page one.
The important part of the Batman is perfectly captured by the wizard class.
1. Exponential increase in strength with prep time.
2. Nearly unlimited money.
3. Smarter than everyone else in the party.
And hey, a level 8 wizard would beat Bruce Lee in a fist fight.
Bruce Lee! Are you nuckin futs?!
If we are translating heroic figures into the Pathfinder world...
Bruce Lee would be a high level monk. An 8th lvl wizard would get crushed.
Wizards have nearly unlimited money simply by being a wizard???
In what world?
The ONLY thing a wizard has in common with Batman is #1.
The entire post is based upon the premise that recommending a wizard to emulate the Pathfinder version of Batman is a bad idea. It creates a character that somewhat, and poorly at that, emulates what Batman can do. But it's very clearly something else.
There is no magic to Batman. Everything he uses is a constructed item that his preparation and planning adapt to overcome whatever obstacles he faces.
If you were to insert that both characters in the same world, they would either be different super heroes, or completely different classes with different skill sets.
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It's important to remember that in Batman's DC universe, magic does exist, he knows about it, and yet doesn't have any abilities along those lines.
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Batman has actually used magic a few times; he just doesn't like it, since it's unpredictable, or whatever reason the writers give to keep it from appearing any more often than very rare. Though I'd rather stick to recreating some of his gear, since it's often a focus and doesn't tie too much into class.
To recreate his often rapid grappling hook, you would likely want some combination of a Zip-Line Hook, Rope Recaller, Cornerstone Crossbow, Teleporting Climbing Rig, Caver's Bolt, or Kyton Ring.
To glide like he can without outright flight, you might try a Wing Staff, a Wing Cloak, or a set of Gale Armor. Or just grab a Ring of Featherfall or some Boots of the Cat, if you only care to mitigate the fall damage.
Some of his gadgets include X-Ray in his cowl or contact lenses, with the closest approximation I can find being Gloves of Reconnaissance.
At least once I've seen him recreate a holographic crime scene, which could somewhat be done with a Monocle of the Investigator
For altering your voice, you might use a Vagrant's Hood, a Mummer's Ruff, or possibly even a Liar's Robe for full obscurity.
The bat-computer would be the hardest, since it can seem almost omniscient at times. I've found that a Fool's Scepter and a Scholar's Ring can use Legend Lore, which is a start. Could probably toss a few Crystal Balls in there as well.
One interesting archetype of note, the Scavenger Investigator replaces extracts with Gadgets. Still functions as the same thing.
The hard thing to do would be to make Batman out of a Summoner. Next to that, Wizard is EASY.Synthesist, and the eidolon is both the costume and utility belt.
Wow, I stand corrected.
Admittedly, the vigilante is a class specifically built to play Batman (and if you want to get more specific you can always take an archetype). The whole "wizards are Batman" trope came about long before the class was published.
Obligatory "BECAUSE I'M BATMAN!!!" utterance.
I stand by my belief that Batman would be about 6-9th level. He's famous, but he's really only a regional hero, staying in Gotham. According to the Gamemastery Guide, a regional influence would be between levels 1-6. Bruce Lee would be about level 6, 7 at most, because it's actually been shown that a real-world person is low level, with 6th level being the equivalent of an Olympic level athlete. And Batman is described as Olympic level, not superhuman.
That may be true in game terms, but keep in mind that Bruce Lee fought a grand master (a 10th degree blackbelt), Wong Jack Man.
6th level? Sounds fishy.
Blackbelts are heavily restricted when it comes to sparring other combatants because of the lethality and dangerous nature of their martial abilities. They have to restrict what strikes can be used, and upon reaching 3rd degree, are most often not allowed to spar others, even those of the same rank, because of their lethal martial prowess.
Even in the Olympics, they don't allow for full-contact martial arts competitions. They are all floor routines, non-contact, form and balance, etc.
Hardly a good estimation of ones true martial ability.
Additionally, Batman's martial prowess may be that of an Olympic athlete, however, that's just one facet of his skill set.
Know any 6th level characters with unlimited wealth?
Also, Batman tackles global and universal threats with the Justice League, so there's no serious argument that he's confined to being "regional" because his home area is Gotham City.
Bruce Lee! Are you nuckin futs?!The important part of the Batman is perfectly captured by the wizard class.
1. Exponential increase in strength with prep time.
2. Nearly unlimited money.
3. Smarter than everyone else in the party.
And hey, a level 8 wizard would beat Bruce Lee in a fist fight.
Bruce Lee was a very physically adept actor who won some fights when he was a teenager. He wasn't Goku. He couldn't reliably survive something like a forty foot fall, which a perfectly average 8th level wizard can laugh off on average. He'd lose the fight by attrition alone. Skill means something different in the real world and doesn't infinitely scale like in tabletop.
Not that this has a lot to do with Batman, who ranges between being an above average mortal, and a guy who can dodge bullets and punch down brick walls and use magic pressure points, depending on the particular incarnation.
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I stand by my belief that Batman would be about 6-9th level. He's famous, but he's really only a regional hero, staying in Gotham. According to the Gamemastery Guide, a regional influence would be between levels 1-6. Bruce Lee would be about level 6, 7 at most, because it's actually been shown that a real-world person is low level, with 6th level being the equivalent of an Olympic level athlete. And Batman is described as Olympic level, not superhuman.That may be true in game terms, but keep in mind that Bruce Lee fought a grand master (a 10th degree blackbelt), Wong Jack Man.
6th level? Sounds fishy.
Blackbelts are heavily restricted when it comes to sparring other combatants because of the lethality and dangerous nature of their martial abilities. They have to restrict what strikes can be used, and upon reaching 3rd degree, are most often not allowed to spar others, even those of the same rank, because of their lethal martial prowess.
Even in the Olympics, they don't allow for full-contact martial arts competitions. They are all floor routines, non-contact, form and balance, etc.
Hardly a good estimation of ones true martial ability.
Additionally, Batman's martial prowess may be that of an Olympic athlete, however, that's just one facet of his skill set.
Know any 6th level characters with unlimited wealth?
Olympic Tae Kwon Do consists exclusively of full contact sparring; there are no forms, balance, floor routines or any such thing. Olympic Judo consists exclusively of full contact sparring; there are no forms, balance, floor routines or any such thing. Olympic Karate will debut in 2020. It will include kumite (sparring) and kata (forms).
As of 2020, your statement will be partially correct otherwise what the hell are you talking about??
I’m not even going to address your nonsense about Bruce Lee or black belt martial artists in general.
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I just consider it bad writing, when you have someone who can physically manhandle a krptonian who is going all out loses a hand-to-hand fight against a mundane human. The difference in power is way too large for Batman to have any victory that isn't a Deus ex Machina. He is not superhuman, so should be in the levels I suggested. His only power is treating the wealth-by-level suggestion as a joke.Put him against any Superman opponent, who provides an even challenge for the Man of Steel. How quickly is Batman going to fight before turning into a greasy smear?As long as the writer deems he'll last, which consequently has a > 0 chance that he's actually going to beat someone like Darkseid (as has happened at least twice if memory serves) or similar.
And considering event series, teamups, and general cross pollination in comics, it's not exactly unknown for Bats to tangle with other rogues galleries outside the JL whereupon you do end up against your Darkseids, Zooms, or local mind controlled Superman.
By this definition Dragons should never be capable of losing to Pathfinder Fighters.
There is a suspension of disbelief required in every genre.
Batman can tangle with more inherently powerful (Higher CR) foes because he has more than 6 measly levels.
I'd put him at something like 4 Investigator, 8 Unchained Monk, 5 Ninja.
What would Darkseid be? A CR 22-25 Outsider, right? Kind of the lower rung of Demon Lord?
Could a 17th level mostly Martial character go some rounds with a CR 22 Demon Lord?
And despite being considered "non-super powered" in the comics, Batman can do similar super human feats and does so routinely.
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Guys, remember that Batman doesn't win by being the strongest guy to walk into a fight. Batman wins by knowing more about his opponent and planning ahead like a grandmaster chess player. Batman makes his knowledge checks, learns about his opponents, and then uses all the information he's gathered to succeed.
Look, its the Cthulhu problem. We all know that characters can be built to solo Cthulhu. We've all read Beastmass. However, Cthulhu is an elder god with like 32 Intelligence or something absurd. There is no way he enters into a stand-up fight verses someone who could reasonably fight him in a 1 on 1.
Batman's the same sthick, his intelligence is off the charts. That is his real super power, and so he goes into every fight having planned out what could go wrong. Batman doesn't enter into a last man standing fight, he'll run away if things are going poorly and come back with a better strategy. Batman plans ahead.
Also, I'm throwing a vote for levels in Windstep Master. It gives him the hurricane punch, proficiency in Shurikan (batarangs), and the ability to glide around (windstep).
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With a level 6 character being the equivalent of a multi-competition Olympic gold medalist, Batman probably falls pretty comfortably into the 7th level range for Pathfinder. Still mortal and possessing mortal weaknesses, but a step above the outer bounds of what's really achievable in our reality.
The class that best represents him really does come down to personal preference; if you're willing to reskin technology as magic, then wizard does a very solid job, especially if you consider that the majority of the people Batman fights will be in the level 1-6 range. Wizard is also nice because in the Pathfinder system it's the class that can most take advantage of having an opportunity to research and prep; even a relatively low-level wizard can swing high above their weight class if they know what's coming. As far as martial combat goes, a 1st level commoner is likely going to have a +0 to hit, while an 18 STR 7th level wizard is going to have at least a +7; to most "mere mortals, he's already an amazing martial artist, and if you equate his gloves and utility belt to magic gauntlets and various wondrous items, that number and the capabilities behind it rise even further.
If you assume that even low-level mooks serving the Batman villains are strong enough to consistently kill a normal human in one or two hits with their bare hands, or that every single citizen of Gotham has a couple levels under their belts from growing up on those mean, crime-ridden streets, then the narrative comfortably expands enough that nonmagical classes and classes with more mundane abilities can adequately fill that niche. A lot of the vigilante class stuff fits well with the Batman trope and opens up the class's ability to research and prep, so it's probably the closest fit to the most commonly re-occurring portrayals of Bruce's alter ego, though there are certainly other classes that can step up into that niche, particularly with archetypes.
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Batman's the same sthick, his intelligence is off the charts.
Actually, while Batman is smart, I wouldn't say it is off the charts. There are plenty others out there who are as smart and even smarter.
What sets Batman apart is that his paranoia is off the charts. It is for this reason that he has a plan for every contingency and a plan for every way each of those plans could go wrong.
Fair.
I would also like to argue that while Batman himself does not need to be a Wizard, Batman in Pathfinder most certainly employs several who make all of his gadgets.
Fair.
I would also like to argue that while Batman himself does not need to be a Wizard, Batman in Pathfinder most certainly employs several who make all of his gadgets.
That might have been true before the technology guide; now his gadgets should use those rules for crafting technological items and be those.
He probably has several of those feats himself.
And Lucious Fox and Luke Fox have the entire chains. . .
Vigilante is the "Hero" class, so we need it for Batman.
Investigator, because batman is the best detective in the world and investigators are pretty good in melee too.
And maybe some rogue or ninja levels, but I don't think it's necessary.
The only problem is the money "cheat" batman has.
I don't think he's too powerful by himself, but he can buy magic items of CL 20 if he needs to fight someone more powerful than him.
"Internet pissed me off because I googled something and discovered that some people on this planet do not think the way I do".
Man, I wish I had such problems.
You want such problems, on top of all your existing problems? Why on earth would you be wishing for more problems?
Batman has no magical potential at all.
You are a Vorthos!
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/vorthos-and-mel- 2015-08-31https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/melvin-and-vorth os-2007-05-07-0
This is not an insult, it is just a known profile (as categorized by Mark Rosewater and others at Mtg headquarters/development/design.)
The types of psychographics summed up (Note: many people will fit more than one profile)
Timmy -> Wants to do something BIG. Doesn't care what it is on average; as long as when it works it's BIG. Highest Damage! Toughest dude. etc..
Johnny -> Combo player. In this game it tends to be someone who will go out of their way to kill something in an extravagant or unusual manner; such as "Flesh to Stone" into "Stone to mud."
Spike -> Any of those here who clamor on about DPR races, the non-viability of classes, and similar. To them it is an optimization problem. (Again, this is a summary and not an insult!)
Vorthos -> The flavor is a perfect fit. A Vorthos is someone who wants the whole thing to be a cohesive fit in terms of flavor.
Melvin -> The mechanics are a perfect fit. A Melvin is someone who wants the whole things to mechanically fit in a nice way (and I'm not sure it is represented in PF; but haven't thought about it.)
_________________
Why does this matter? Because realizing that different people think in different ways and indeed perceive the world entirely different than you do even when looking at the exact same thing can help you realize why someone said "Use a Wizard" in response to batman
Batman has a nifty tool for most jobs, and then combines these tools to accomplish other jobs. This is similar to a Wizard mechanically, because spells offer a vast variety of different actions that may take an entire bag-of-holding worth of stuff to do without spells.
This is a mechanical fit, not a flavor fit, however. This is a Melvin or Johnny telling you how to achieve your aims rather than a Vorthos telling you.
___________
Solving your problem:
* Play a class with a high number of skills
* Have bolas, hammers, grappling hooks, star knives, whips, and a variety of other things to get the job done.
If someone wanted to play Batman I'd suggest Blood of Heroes (formerly called DC Heroes), Champions, Mutants and Masterminds or Villains and Vigilantes. Plenty of games to choose from.
Few things make me more angry than someone telling me I'm playing my character wrongly. No matter who says it or what class I'm playing.
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That is not Batman. I’m sorry, but that can never be Batman.
Oh, well, guess I'll just tear up my Wizard Batman character sheet because it doesn't pass your Batman Purity Test.
/"Wait a second, we can just ignore him!"
Batman is that clockwork alchemist archetype that repurposes its extracts as machines
/thread
Batman can be whatever he wants to be. If someone wants to play him as a wizard, let them. It doesn't make them wrong or right, and telling them that they are playing it wrong doesn't make you right. It just makes you rude.
Do other classes fit better flavor wise? Sure. But it's up to the player to decide what they want to do with their character.
I myself tried making a Pathfinder character sheet for DC's Captain Cold. I made him a Spellslinger, which is a wizard archetype. To me, it was the best way I could find to shoot ice through a gun. I do need to redo his feat selection, but you can't tell me that I chose the wrong class for him. Because that's the point - I chose it. You can give me advice on what class you think might be better, but you can't just simply say I'm wrong.
Batman can be whatever you and your GM work out together. Last I saw, there are no restrictions on what and where imagination takes you.
If you don't want a Batman wizard in your game, then that is between you and your GM (and your table.) Otherwise, it is no better or worse a topic than any of the thousand of others roaming the internets on how to create this or that character.