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Yes I would.

In my circles we all DM, buy RPG stuff, read forums, ec. So odds are at least 2 of us (besides whoevers the DM atm) have read any particular thing.
So nobodies being blocked from play due to having extra info. All that would do is deprive us of someone's company.
Nor do we choose adventures based on who has/hasn't read x. Just: "is this something the group would like?"

If I had a player wanting to play Batman I wouldn't recommend anything PF. Rather I'd suggest we play any of the dedicated Superhero games published....

My group averages about 18 months.
The plan is to play every week for around 4-5 hours. We end up averaging about 40-45 sessions dedicated to the AP in a year.

Right now we're 3/4 way through book 5 of Reign of Winter. We should finish book 6 by the end of July.

Then it's on to Ruins of Azlant (? think that's its name)

Angel Hunter D wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
What even is this conversation anymore?

a brawl between 4 camps

camp 1 enjoys the game as is, sees it as it's own genre of fantasy.

camp 2 wants to be in middle earth and get hurt and heal as much as frodo did, they see the CLW wand as an affront.

camp 3 thinks the low level item being the best healing by price is weird, and should be "fixed"

camp 4 thinks that the CLW wand is a symptom of a damage/healing system that has fundamental flaws and no good way to make the narrative and game flow in a way that appeals to everyone.

then there are people in each camp that can't agree on whether or not CR assumes you are always healed up (though in PFS I've usually seen not topping off as inviting death, or at least making my job as a team mate harder because your dirt nap is coming early)

every camp seems to be bringing more and weirder examples along as this circles like that thing in Abendengo.

There's a 5th camp.

But we're pretty quiet, content to read this stuff & just shake our heads. We believe that if your group is having problems with _______, then it's your own fault/your DMs fault.
Because there's all kinds of things you can do in these games. All kinds of ways to play. Just because you CAN do something though =/= you must do that.
Now I know, some of you will respond that you play in the PFS. Well, once again, your own fault. You've chosen to play in a game that's not your own. Where you don't get a say in the options.

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Don't bother explaining how DR works vs your monsters/NPCs.
Just apply however much is applicable.

Don't bother explaining it over & over to the players about their characters. Jut tell them the adjusted damage total. Or just a total.... If they ask about the DR? Just tell them you already did the math.

"I think it warrants some discussion though over what is more important to be a paladin.

Being of a particular alignment, or upholding a virtuous code?"

It's both. It's a combo package. If you can only achieve one or the other, then you're not a paladin. You might want to be a paladin though.... And that will certainly make for an interesting character to play. But you shouldn't be rewarded with a classes abilities for not meeting the criteria of the class.

That said? Talk to your individual DM.

But the rules of the game should not be changed overall to support this.

I'm not terribly worried. Afterall, they have to keep selling books in 2020+

So I expect the initial books beyond Core & Monsters I will rehash a fair amount of stuff. at least in some fashion.

Minis - from virtually any company that strikes our fancy,
Hero Forge - some of us have some of our characters done by HF
Heroclix - remounted on reaper bases
assorted paper/cardstock pawns.
assorted toys
my buddy now has a 3d printer, so....

hellatze wrote:

I can use belt and headband.

So it isnt anybissue how to modyfy my familiar.

The question is is it allowed or not ? (To use magic item)

Some of us would allow this (depending on item), some of us wouldn't.

But the person who's answer actually matters is your DM....

This, by the way, is ALWAYS the answer (unless you're playing in the PFS).
DM > book/errata/game designers.

So make your case to the DM, don't be annoying about it, & accept their ruling.

Using Wish well requires you to know/be able to read your game-master.

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Optimizing is me using the rules as best I can to mechanically represent the character I'm envisioning.

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1) If the DM won't tell you his reasoning, ask the other players. There may well be a few interesting stories attached....

2) Don't worry about it. Get creative with stuff he hasn't banned (there's PLENTY to work with). If you do this well you might impact future banned lists. :)

3) I don't see any feats on this list. You should ask him about those.

4) If possible, take the leadership feat & seek out a Deck of Many Things. :)

5) If you get the sense that the DM is afraid of player creativity or such, mess with him by asking for or taking something innocuous - like an unbreakable quarterstaff.
I did this to one of my DMs years ago. At the start of the game each player got to request 1 magic item. Assorted weapons/armors/misc items were requested. One gal wanted a custom amulet. Some of wich had game-breaking combo/potential or power-gaming written all over them. (and were eventually used such to the irritation of the DM)
Me? I asked for an unbreakable 1/4staff. That was it. That was it's only magical feature. Not even a + (wich since we were playing AD&D was important as some monsters simply could not be harmed except by +x or better weapons).
For two years the DM constantly wondered WHY this item. WHAT was I planning to do with it? And he had reason to be suspicious as he knew me to be a creative player from many other games (not just D&D) we'd played. If CCS was asking for something there was a REASON, be wary....
And nearly every week, through normal spontaneous play, a situation would arise where having an unbreakable stick proved useful.
And still the DM wondered.

At the end of the game he finally asked, admitting it'd been driving him nuts.
My reply: :Mission accomplished."
Oh & I pointed out numerous times it'd proven just plain useful. That I'd gotten more use out of an unbreakable staff than any of the other players had ever gotten from their special items.

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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
How much is enough?

As a player I've always found that to be the intersection where the stats/stat increases/feats/GP I'm investing doesn't interfere with anything else I want my character to do.

As the DM? I don't care how much DPR a player invests in. I might think it's a waste of resources/options after a point, but I'm not the one playing the character....

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I play a lot of halflings, a lot of humans, a lot of fighter types & a lot of bards. Most of them not-evil & most of them male.
And I'll often have the most interesting character at the table.

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You'll love this one.

Many many years ago playing 1e AD&D I had a player try & trick me. I figured out his scheme & had a nasty surprise waiting for him at the end. :)

Once upon a time Brian read some article about how to become a Lich in a Dragon Magazine issue. He decided that he wanted his next character to become a lich.
He made two assumptions.
1) That whatever he read was automatically in play. (wrong!)
2) That I'd never agree to let him become a Lich if he just asked. (wrong!)

So from day one of this campaign he set about making that secretly happen.
He made a Cleric of Thoth (Egyptian god of knowledge)- presumably so that he wouldn't have to find anything out about the process during play. Because you know, cleric of knowledge.... Thus avoiding asking me if he could eventually become a Lich.
He carefully planned out at what lv he'd MC into Wizard (he needed some spell or other) & how many lvs he'd sink into it.
He did everything he could in game to slowly amass the requisite spells, materials, & ingredients for the Lich potion and a phylacerty.
And he rose through all the desired Cleric/Wizard lvs. (It's AD&D, do you have any idea how much XP that is???)

This took nearly 3 years of weekly play (about 5 hrs per session).
And in all that time he never once mentioned his grand plan to me, the DM.
That was a mistake.

For a good long while (about 1/2 the campaign)I had no idea what he was up to. I hadn't read that issue of Dragon. I just knew that he was collecting some weird components.
Well, eventually I got a "Best Of Dragon" compilation. And one of the articles in it detailed the steps to become a Lich. Steps & components that seemed really familiar....
And so I decided that that WASN'T how liches were made in my world. But I'd let Brian continue down his chosen path as long as he liked & if he ever said anything about his plan only then would I let him know the truth.
He never said anything.

And so after almost 3 years of gaming the big day arrives. Brian's Cleric/Wizard finishes all his prep, retreats to his secret & warded lair, mixes his potion of super lich poison, drinks it, chooses to fail his save.... And dies.

All this time, all this effort, all this secrecy, millions of xp - and his character essentially commits suicide.

Boy I wish I'd had a camera handy. Because to this day I can't properly describe the stunned look of complete surprise + rage.
But damn it was funny.

And on that day Brian learned a valuable lesson: TALK to your DM.

Well, aside from random games at gaming conventions once or twice a year, I play friends.
Why wouldn't I trust my friends?

Having said that, there are members of the group whom we don't let GM anymore. Not because their unfair, but because they just run really crappy games

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

New FTF group, new campaign. Debating what to do and so far it looks like RoW is topping the short list! So, a couple of quick questions:

1) How much time do your guys usually spend in the first village? I'm thinking not too much, because the village is basically a place to get information and maybe buy a few supplies. OTOH they'll be in the neighborhood for several sessions. Did anyone spend much time here?

My group ended up spending 3 days in Heldren.

But that's not where we began this adventure. I didn't want the players to realize that they were entering the RoW AP when they created characters so I set the game up as a Taldor based political campaign. I had the PCs start as members of Lady Argentea Malassenes' escourt & they got ambushed on the road by Rokars bandits (who had nothing to do with the winter portal). The bandits took the PCs, Lady Argentea, and another noble NPC I added, prisoner. Holding them in the lodge. The other NPCs in the entourage were killed.
The party lv up to 2nd after the ambush resolved.

While the PCs were prisoners (and healing up from negative HP) 2 things happened.
1) That other NPC I added escaped, prompting the bandits to go searching the woods for her. (thus reducing the # of bandits in the lodge down to what's listed)
2) On the 3rd or 4th day there was an almighty explosion somewhere near & over the course of the day the temp started plummeting.

#2 really prompted the PCs to make an escape attempt - despite not having all the HP they'd like. :) They could sit & freeze or try something....
So they & Lady Argentea escaped into a sudden winter wonderland while most of the bandits were away (dead actually by evil fey, but the PCs didn't know that atm)

So my group encountered about 1/2 the encounters between town & lodge in reverse order and pretty much without winter gear. :)

They escaped the winter bubble & reached Heldren. They got to spend 3 days there recuperating, sending out messengers, etc.
Day 1: Normal warm Taldor weather
Day 2: Temp drops throughout the day & frosts towards evening
Day 3: The snows begin.... This allows the PCs an idea of how fast the winter bubble is spreading. They're also actively planning to head back into the hills to find the missing NPC.

Now, better equipped, the party faces the other 1/2 of the encounters between town & lodge, finds the winter portal, & determines they have to enter it in pursuit of the missing noble.
They lv up to 3rd once they reach Waldsby.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

2) The first few encounters seem to ramp up quickly from the usual "first module of an AP EL 1 KISS" to some that can be really problematic if the PCs play it stupid. Is this a correct impression? Has anyone felt the need to mess with these? -- For the record, here are the first half dozen or so encounters before you reach the Lodge:

-- 2 zombies
-- log and chest trap
-- tatzlwyrm
-- snowdrift and sprites
-- "talking stag" (atomie)
-- snowman trap + 2 ice elementals
-- crossbow trap at end of trail

Did any of you beef up, nerf down, or otherwise change these? How did your PCs manage?

I tinkered with these some.

* The 2 zombies became frozen ghouls. They started out as two of Lady Argenteas ladies-in-waiting, died horribly in the ambush, were re-animated by Rokar & then he threw the still living valet in with them and barred the door. This was all the more horrible because the PCs knew all three of these NPCs thanks to a prior session of RP.

* Log & chest trap - I deleted this one. I just relocated the loot to the lodge & the PCs found it while escaping.

* Tatzlwyrm - I kept this & tried my best to kill the PCs with it.
This was the parties 1st real encounter with something not native to Taldor. To this day they don't know what it was.

* Snowdrift & sprites - Again, I did my best to kill the PCs. They learned tiny fey are dangerous. :)

* The talking stag/atomie - This one never became a combat encounter as I was just having fun with the RP portion of it & the PCs weren't hostile. So I figured why ruin a good encounter & just rolled with it. The PCs ended up getting some info that was useful later in book 1 & 2.

* The snowman & ice elementals - this was a fun fight. Especially as I used an Olaf figure from Frozen for the snowman.
The players never thought they'd have to fight Olaf....

* The crossbow trap I left as written.

*The undead Quadirans? I changed those to Rokar Bandits who'd become wights.

Overall the PCs managed well enough. No-one died & the players all agreed that the 1st part of this book had been a real challenge and that the RP was good.

1) Very useful for book #2. Especially the map.

The players Guide - don't know. I wrote my own based upon how I intended to start things.
Ideally (IMO) the players should NOT know that they're about to be whisked off to a land of perpetual cold, witches, & fey. And they should definitely not be prepared to head off to another planet or WWI Russia....
So I'd just skip the PG altogether.

The Winter witch Archtype & PRC being mechanically good/bad/other isn't my concern as the DM.
(My) Winter Witches operate just fine. :)
This is much more important to one of my players though. He started as a druid & ended up needing a replacement character early in book 3.
So he made a Witch (Witch, WW archetype, WW PRC, Jadwiga) who'd been swallowed by the Hut while trying to help Nahzeena sap its' power back in Whitethrone. Of course that's not the story he sold to the rest of the party...
He's not noted for making ineffective characters & he seems happy enough. And he's able to handle the encounters.
He has commented though that it's odd how few cold spells are on the WW list.

You're looking at this wrong.

The party doesn't have to kill the dragon. Doesn't have to go anywhere near it's tower. Or help Solveig & her revolutionaries in any way.
All they have to do is be 6th lv & get into the woods surrounding the hut.

The character that does have a vested interest in killing the dragon, entering it's lair, & setting off the revolution? Solvieg.
1) To get the revolution started.
2) Now it's personal - Logrovich has abducted her friend Bella. Let this be the factor that finally spurs real action.

Let the PCs fart about doing whatever they like in Whitethrone.
When you get tired of running Whitethrone stuff? Have Solvieg & a cohort launch the attack on Logrovich themselves. And have the rest of the revolutionaries rise up throughout the city. Have the resulting chaos draw off enough of the Winter Guard to allow the PCs a chance to slip or fight their way into the woods.
Of course the PCs won't know what's happened, just that now they're caught up in the chaos of a civil war.
If they're smart they'll recognize that this is their chance & can fight their way through the streets and into the next section of the module.

And if you still want a dragon fight? That's fine. Logrovich (maybe a bit wounded) can show up to help Nahzeena once the PCs reach her.

Just a few questions about your choices.

1) Why rebuild Lady Argentea as a changling oracle? How are you working that into the story?

2) And are you aware that in book two there's an encounter with a doppleganger who's copying Lady Argentea? The witch that controls the Pale Tower intends to replace Lady Argentea with this creature & infiltrate Taldor nobility.

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If all goes well I'll be DMing this one as a sequel to our current RoW campaign.
Remember, book 1 of RoW started in Taldor.
All I gave the players info wise was to make characters who were serving in the retinue of one Lady Argentea Malassene - a minor princess of the realm - and that they'd be attending the annual "Celebration of Ascension" (or whatever I called it - where the prince elevates people into the nobility)in Oppara.
A session or two of court intrigue, a session of travel back home afterwards, & then the real fun begins as their entourage gets caught in a blizzard(!)& ambushed by evil fey....

The gave me a trio of House Malassene knights (one cavalier, one paladin, & one 3.5 war-mage, all human) & a 1/2 elf druid (who was serving as the houses animal master). All loyal natives of Taldor & all with ties to the nobility.
They've been off jaunting about reality in the Dancing Hut trying to stop a new ice age for awhile now.

By the time they make it back home (based on the speed we play) 3-4 volumes of this AP should be out. :)

"Oh, look what's been happening while you were away...."

Of course I'm going to have to re-work some of it to account for the characters being 14th lv or so.

Trystram wrote:


I'm fairly new to pathfinder, and I'm curious as to how often GMs for this game are likely to create their own campaign? It seems like most of the games I see on places like roll 20 are pre-published content, with maybe some minor adjustments.

I've no xp with Roll20 etc. But I'm as likely as not to make up my own content. Just depends upon the mood I'm in really.

Trystram wrote:
Also, how often do you find the GM just "re-skinning" published content?

Depends what is as to how hard/how much the DMs I know (including myself)are willing to re-skin something.

Re-purposing a dungeon to another location? Happens a lot. In fact, in my Reign of Winter campaign, there's a very good chance the party is about to go off on a side trek to some ruins this week or next. I don't have time to actually write something so I'm just going to pull something off the shelf and swap out a few monsters for ones more appropriate to the region.

Re-writing an entire AP to another area of the world? Much harder. So done much less often.

Trystram wrote:
Have any GMs found there is resistance to custom content set in the published world? For example, if a particular region of Golarion is well "explored" through various AP's, etc..., but you as GM want to take the region in a different direction, have you had players object because what you are trying to do isn't "canon?"

I only have two players who're moderately well versed in Golarion. The rest? Not so much....

But I've run into this a few times with the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk/Dragonlance settings in Dungeons & Dragons because of all the novels printed over the years.

My answer to these people is simple. I DON'T CARE. I haven't read everything out there concerning ______. (especially not crappy novels by authors I know I don't like) And I'm not going to. Nor am I beholden to whatever someone else dreamed up. I'll take the bits & pieces I like & go from there.
And since I'm the DM, "cannon" is whatever {I} say it is.
So this is CCS's version of Golarian/FR/DL or whatever. Think of it as an alternate reality if it helps.

Trystram wrote:

Do any GMs simply find it easier to craft their own world from scratch and simply allow only certain rules/classes/etc... in their world rather than try to integrate their story into the existing world?

I've always found it to be about as much work either way. So it mostly depends upon my mood at the time wich route I go.

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Looking forward to this one.
Right now all the PCs are Taldans. And all the players are GoT fans. Eventually they'll return home from their current adventure(s). And it'd be pretty cool to have them walk into a fight for the crown. "Hey, look what's been brewing while you were away! :)"
I'll probably have to adjust something as they won't be 1st lv.... But that shouldn't be a problem.

Pluribus wrote:

I have an idea for an epic feeling low level adventure, but it requires the inclusion of a "stone to flesh" spell or something similar.

If I include an NPC who can cast 6th level spells it would take some crazy excuses to justify that NPC not solving every problem. If I give them an item that can cast the spell the party could just sell it later and be crazy rich for their level.

1) Concerning the NPC: In D&D (2e) there was a male version of a Medusa (forget what they called them). Their power was Stone-to-Flesh.

The females petrified victims, victims were then broken up into chunks, then the males turned the chunks of stone back into tasty flesh.
I assume this creature exists in 3x. Maybe even here in PF?
So you could have a select few nomads in each group be one of these guys (mechanically). Maybe even 1 in so many woman possess the Medusas' petrifying power. That way you don't have to give them anything more than a HD or so + whatever (if any) other class abilities.

2) On the PCs selling the Stone-to-Flesh mcguffin & getting really rich....
Your the DM.
The pcs will only get whatever $/trade YOU decide to provide. So if you give them too much, that's on fully on you.
But let's say you do give out too much. Well, once again, you're the DM. The pcs can only spend the loot on whatever YOU decide is available. Really this is no different than deciding what loot is found in a dungeon.

I'd have to say no.
But then I also don't just sit around making characters as a hobby, or to fiddle with the rules.

As a player? I only create a new character as needed. This takes me about a week, with most of that time spent pondering non-mechanical aspects.

As a DM? When I create the npcs I need, I start with the non-mechanical stuff. Like creating a character for a book. Then I fill in the mechanical details as I need them. them

Chess Pwn wrote:
Halek wrote:
Why is power gaming bad?
It's bad when only 1 player of a table is doing it, because an imbalance of a party is a pretty big problem to deal with.

Personally I think it's worse when more than 1 person is doing it....

It's like trying to herd cats - who've all grown superpowers.
Sure, I CAN rebalance things 3, 4, 5+ ways to account for each persons style of OP. But it's easier when I only have to do it once.:)

HWalsh wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
Davia D wrote:
Question- big six?
I know the question was already answered, but here's the first time the term was ever used, almost exactly ten years ago in an article on the WotC website by Andy Collins: Big Hero Six.

That's a really good set of articles on magic item design. The different forms of item costs are a good guideline for why players pass over flavourful items, and cover points mentioned in this thread:

1) GP cost - is there something more useful I could buy with the gold?

2) Item slot cost - is there something more useful I could be wearing in the same slot?

3) Action cost - is there something more useful I could be doing with my actions in combat?

The problem is that it comes down to poor game design.

If you design a game where there is really only one logical choice then, by that extension, you make that the only choice.

What is weird is that we KNOW WotC is aware of this and we know Paizo is aware of this. In "Magic: The Gathering" (WotC) they'll ban cards when they start popping up in every single top tier deck. Paizo worked closely with WotC.

They have to be aware that this is a huge issue, and they keep making magic items aside from the big six that literally 99% of players *do not* use.

So what do you want them to do? This is D&D (even if you spell it PF). Things like magic armor & weapons are just a given....

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A long time ago, '88-89/90, we're playing AD&D. 1e shifting into 2e.
One of the players wanted his character to become a lich. He'd read the article on how this was done in Dragon Magazine.
He figured I wouldn't go for it.

So he didn't say a single word of the plan to me. Ever. In two years+ of play.
He just slowly & quietly went about collecting the ingredients for the potion, his would-be-phylactery, etc.
But not once did he ever mention he was researching liches.

Wich is a mistake. Because you need the DM involved for such things!
Had he spoken to me about it? I'd have said yes. And written adventures to accommodate it. He'd also have learned that I wasn't using that system to create liches....
But he didn't. He just assumed that since he read it in a Dragon issue that that's how it'd work in my game.

Well, eventually I caught on. Still though, no word from the player....

So I just let it continue. Even let him enchant the phylacerty.
And when the big day came & he downed his poison potion?
I informed him that his character was dead & couldn't be brought back. That this is not how liches are created in my game.

The stunned look on his face as he realized he'd just suicide a 17th lv AD&D character was priceless.

After that boy was he mad that I'd stung him along for almost 2 years. :)

I roll in the open. Because:
1) Any screen I'm using is invariably in the way.
2) I don't care if the players see the roll or draw conclusions based upon that.
3) Our table is 4'x5'. And even though I'm rolling bright yellow dice with black #s? Only two of the players can likely see the roll without standing up to look. The guy on my left? He's too lazy to backwards engineer any "secret" info from my d20 roll. The guy on my right? His eyes are so bad he can't read his own dice....
4) We're all long term friends & gaming vets. We KNOW the #s. Or have a really really good idea of the expected range at any given point in the game. So after a round or two? That "secret" info isn't a secret anyways.

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The 1st thing I'll do is read the entire AP all the way through.
Next I'll read it through again, taking notes on parts I don't like, parts that just won't work for my actual players, or parts that I think could be expanded upon.
For instance, in Reign of Winter:
1) I think the authors lay it on a bit thick to get the PCs to storm the Pale Tower.
2) I find the huts changing interior as presented bland & uninteresting.
Then I type up my changes.

During actual play I simply roll with whatever the players do. This often leads to writing additional materiel about a week ahead of the PCs.... Eventually things swing back towards the AP.

LucasB wrote:

In all he got his ass kicked and crushed by 2 large assassin vines. He flips out rips his paper and walks outside and comes back 10 min later to say he's don't playing DnD. Looks like we will have to find a new host.


I was like face palm you have no one to blame but your self for your own stupidity.... Does the party have to fork up the gold to raise a stupid character who went into the cave alone and got him self killed? I Honestly don't think we should. Have him roll up a new character that he can play without being stupid.

Nope. Take the self-proclaimed ex-player at his word & find somewhere else to run your game for next week. Don't discuss it with him. Don't tell him anything about the game or where/when its now hosted.

aceman67 wrote:

Its not a full list, prices aren't accurate, but you'll get it.

Core $50
U.Magic $50
U.Combat $50
U.Equipment $50
Unchained $50
PFS Season 6 $100
Hells Rebels 1-6 $150
Beginners Box $50
Total $550

Not without an accurate list & prices I wont....

Pathfinder is my game of choice because..... It's Sunday.

The group of friends I play with on Sunday generally prefers PF.
Myself? As either player or DM 1e/2e, PF, or 5e - any are fine with me.

The last/current campaign (where I'm a player) - the DM specifically wanted to use the PF Mythic book. So PF it was.
The upcoming campaign (that I'll be running)is PF - because that's what the majority of the group voted for.

Mogloth wrote:

For the people that have dealt with wandering PCs, did you ask for breaks in order to brainstorm ideas? Or keep everything rolling?

Our game sessions tend to be relaxed, wandering, affairs to begin with.

Just give us 20 minutes or so & we'll probably digress into a discussion of GoT, real life stuff, football/baseball, terrible movies, etc. So no need to call a break. Ones always around the corner. :)
It's amazing how much I can brainstorm as we waste 15 minutes going on about some of this stuff though.

But it doesn't hurt that I've already identified the most likely points of deviation in the sessions plan & considered 3 likely responses....

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Have you considered a horse?

I've taken the feat 3 times in our PF games.

1st time:
During RoTRL I was playing a fighter (archer). After the giants came & stomped on Sandpoint I took this feat. I mustered a considerable # (40 or 50 some if I recall) of militia, mercs, and angry people who wanted some payback. Granted, most of them (all the 1st lv ones) were just fighters. But arm that many people with crossbows & you'll still turn giants etc into pin-cushions....
Not very many survived all the way through book #6.

I took the feat mostly because I could. When we hit 7th? lv the DM said he'd allow ONE person to take it. And that it was a one time offer. Take it now or never. The other players had different plans in mind for their characters builds. I didn't really have anything in mind, but it seemed foolish to let a one time offer slip by. So I became the leader of an angry mob.

2nd & 3rd time:
We're currently playing WotR. For a while it was 1 DM, 2 regular players, & one or two other players bouncing in/out due to health/work/etc. So the DM had everyone make two characters. That way there'd always be at least 4 characters present each week.

Character #1 - a Chelexian Cavalier/Hell Knight. His goal in fighting in the current crusade is to aquire an immense power (mythic, achieved)and to recruit a veteran force from amongst the Worldwound crusaders in order to lead a rebellion against House Thrune & Hell itself. He HATES that his homeland is shackled to Asmodeus. He intends to see this arrangement ended.
But 1st he has to save the world from the demons....
THEN he'll hit Cheliax/Hell with an army of unemployed paladins.
And so, as soon as possible, I took leadership to represent his recruiting efforts.
His cohort is a LN cleric of Iomodea who's main function is as a spiritual advisor & liaison to the paladins. This cleric was sent to aid the cavalier by Iomodea. Much more RP focused than combat/mechanics.

Character #2 - a tiefling (devil ancestory) wizard (divination) also from Cheliax. When the pair began play she was a prisoner geased to serve the Hell Knight(well, rather his chapter...). She has since broken that enchantment, found that she likes the paladins, & has been slowly shifting her alignment towards good.
She considered fleeing. But she's seen visions of assured demonic victory if she does & knows she can't flee far enough to avoid that.
Several weeks ago, out of spite, she used an Oil of Life to resurrect a frost drake. The DM let me take Leadership & make it her cohort (it shifted it's alignment to match hers). The lower lv followers the feat provides represent the NPC friends she's made.

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My Self wrote:


I'm just wondering if any Paladin players would take it upon themselves to Smite Evil their least favorite politician.

Sure, but getting to them would still be a problem.

And then I'd probably discover that stupid =/= evil....

In our current game we're using the Mythic rules. We hit 4th tier. I took my +2 stat increase to my Str. On a Str.7 wizard. Now I'm a Str.9 wizard!:)

And no, with or without items, none of my other stats are maxed out. Highest stat (INT) is still only 17.

The rest of the group rightly assumes I've some reason for doing this, though nobody has asked what it is. (they know they'll find out the why in good time & that it'll fit the story)

(Based on a very cool mini I made, I intend to MC the character into either cleric or maybe even paladin in a few levels based on how the RP works out. The mini is clearly wearing plate armor. And I just don't see a STR.7, or even my current 9,supporting that....)

Selvaxri wrote:

if you would rather focus on the Teamwork aspect, there is the Drill Sergeant [Fighter archetype] and Vanguard [Slayer archetype] that deal with Tactician part of Cavalier.

My own Cavalier is of this variety. Most of his adventuring has occurred on foot. I have a slew of teamwork feats & group effect abilities going on - though I have spent some resources on mounted combat. He's effective enough.

Clearly a new player.... Whatever she plays she should start by reading the book/class & knowing what her spells, abilities, etc do.

Next you 3 should talk about your characters so you'll know in advance if someone'll be prone to certain actions.

You can't stop her from doing x. Only some RL xp can do that.... But you can plan around it.:)

bookrat wrote:

Oh, they roleplay plenty. They just roleplay with NPCs and not with other PCs.

In our last session, they even left two PCs lying unconscious in the street for four in-game hours while the rest of them roleplayed with the NPCs.

Even when I specifically told them that if they didn't want to help their fellow PCs, the NPC they were talking to could help if they asked. They ignored it.


I'd have RP'd the NPC asking them why they weren't concerned about their friends.

What's the thing supposed to be doing? Standing guard, patrolling, just something you meet?

Because as a player? When I'm faced with something that seems nigh invulnerable I start looking for alt ways to deal with it other than just damage.
For ex:
Can I get this thing to chase me down a hall & then lock it in another room?
What if we just jump it, grapple it, & tie it up?

*I give each of those characters a 15 in each stat & max HP. This includes any racial bonus.
*Any who don't already have a race stated are Human.
*Everyone has the same beginning feat. Choose 1: Either Dodge (+1 AC) or Improved Initiative (+4 initiative) - because who doesn't like more AC/going first? Humans have both.
*Everyone uses a weapon that does d8 damage
*Everyone is ?Good & is working together as a team.
*Everyone is adventuring because: To get rich.

Sorry, you're going to have to fill in the misc details, allocate skill points, etc.

There, done.

Happy adventuring!

I bet you could do better if you sat down as a group & had a character creation session....

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Does the avatar change if you say smurf again?

Apparently it does....


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Jason Wedel wrote:
It is a 4d6 drop the lowest build

Everybody rolls great stats when there's no witnesses. It's how gaming dice work.

I have a 10th lv Cavalier/Hellknight who has leadership.
He has a goal of building his own Hellknight order. And he has a very specific mission that he's recruiting & training these troops for.
Additionally I have access to a fully staffed fortress, supplies, specialists (smiths etc)so I can skip worrying about that for now.
The DM likes my plan.

So every one of his current followers are fighters/cavaliers/even a few paladins. Absolutely no menial laborers, fans, NPC classes etc in my force.

Later on I'll need to allocate some followers to menial tasks, but that won't be any time soon.

wraithstrike wrote:
Sincline wrote:

If you are taking the leadership feat because it's powerful the GM should ban it, if you are taking it because it generates story and matches the campaign then it's awesome.

Basically does it fit the campaign and story, if not it's broken.

It's not difficult to come up with an in-game reason to take it, and why you take has no bearing on whether or not it breaks things at the table. The build and how it is used determine that.

Degree of DM involvement as well. If the DM takes a hands off approach & just lets a player do whatever they want? Then problems will likely ensue.

In my group we roll our stats. So it's not often that anyone can start off with a stat maxed.

The character I'm making & the class I've chosen should not be mistaken as the same thing. (though class is certainly an important aspect of the character....)
I will be mechanically effective. But I will ALWAYS place my stats to best represent the character I have in mind. Likewise when it comes to stat increases.
For ex; Sans gear, my cavaliers highest stats are Cha & Wis. (it started off Cha & Str, but as he's lv up I've increased his Wis each time as he's becoming a better & better leader/tactician)

I have no idea if this was a misprint or not, but if you're cool with them having a drake in the 1st place I don't see why it'd matter.

Afterall, you're the DM. Work with your player to make cool stories & set the drakes AC to whatever you think it should be.

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