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Ok, so let us say we have an alchemists with 20 intelligence. She throws a healing bomb into a group infused with Cure Light Wounds potion. With the damage that is converted to healing as an alchemist, does she add her intellect to the "damage" done, as per the Throw Anything, resulting in 1d8+6 for the target, 7 for the splash? Or is it only the 1d8+1 for the target, 2 for the splash?
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Healing is not damage.
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A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb. Creatures in the splash radius are healed for the minimum amount of damage the cure spell is capable of healing. A healing bomb damages undead instead of healing them.
They target is healed by the amount they would have been healed had they drank the potion/infusion....splash is the minimum
So for CL 5 cure light....target gets 1d8+5 and splash get 2
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Minimum of a splash CLW of CL 5 is 6 (1 of the d8+5).
However, if there are undead adjacent to the ally, would that now be considered damage? So let is say the same alchemist tosses a Cure Serious Wounds Potion Bomb at an area with a Wraith, a zombie, and an ally. The direct hit is the Wraith (3d8+5+INT), the zombie take splash (3+5+INT), and the ally heals (3+5). Would this be correct?
Minimum of a splash CLW of CL 5 is 6 (1 of the d8+5).
However, if there are undead adjacent to the ally, would that now be considered damage? So let is say the same alchemist tosses a Cure Serious Wounds Potion Bomb at an area with a Wraith, a zombie, and an ally. The direct hit is the Wraith (3d8+5+INT), the zombie take splash (3+5+INT), and the ally heals (3+5). Would this be correct?
I don't think so. Basically, treat it just like a divine caster using CLW. It functions as the CLW spell, not the bomb feature.. You just deliver the spell via the bomb class feature.
Splash impact would be 6, whether for healing or damaging.
Yea sorry abt my math lol...I was writing that while talking to a friend about the very same thing (cure light wounds) and I forgot I had mentioned CL 5 not CL1
I had not seen this yet. I may have to pick this up soon; this is a very interesting discovery.
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I disagree with the consensus here. Read the healing bomb description again, first sentence:
Benefit: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it heal damage instead of dealing it. Creating a healing bomb requires the alchemist to expend an infused extract or potion containing a cure spell. A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb. Creatures in the splash radius are healed for the minimum amount of damage the cure spell is capable of healing. A healing bomb damages undead instead of healing them (bold mine).
With the healing bomb you are in effect dealing healing/positive energy damage which heals living and damages undead. It makes no sense to say one of them adds your int modifier and the other doesn't.
I used this in Mummy's Mask, It can be a pretty fun way to heal actually, if a bit expensive
If it heals, no Int bonus. If it deals (specifically, undead), Int bonus. Healing damage is not any form of "damage", which is what Throw Anything adds to.
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so... is there a save for the splash "damage"?
if so, what is the DC calculated as?
(Example 1) A 4th level alchemist with an INT of 16 throws a bomb modified with a CLW potion (CL 1) at a skeleton, and splashes a Zombie...
Damage done to the skeleton is 1d8+1, but is there a save? If so, what is the DC? And what type of save? Will or Reflex? does it get 2 saves?
Damage done to the Zombie is 1+1=2, but is there a save? and if so, what is the DC? And what type of save? Will or Reflex? does it get 2 saves?
(Example 2) A 4th level alchemist with an INT of 16 throws a bomb modified with a CLW Infusion (CL 4) at a skeleton, and splashes a Zombie...
Damage done to the skeleton is 1d8+4, but is there a save? If so, what is the DC? And what type of save? Will or Reflex? does it get 2 saves?
Damage done to the Zombie is 1+4=5, but is there a save? and if so, what is the DC? And what type of save? Will or Reflex? does it get 2 saves?
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Ok, this issue is popping up in my games again. (guess I shouldn't run PCs with this discovery...)
An Ally is involved in melee with several undead. So I throw a Healing bomb targeting my ally.
1) Does my friend HAVE to count his DEX at part of his touch AC?
2) Do I count my INT in the splash damage to the undead?
3) Do the Undead get 1 or 2 Saves? And what type of saves? Will or Reflex or Both?
4) If I used a Potion for the Healing Bomb, how do I calculate the DC for the Save/Saves? From my Bomb DC? or from the Potion DC? or from Both (Reflex for my Bomb DC, and Will for the Potion)?
Let's see if i can answer.
1) It's a ranged touch attack, if you let them know about it before throwing it (they know you are trying to heal them), then you don't even need to make a check. Touching an ally in combat makes no distinction between melee or ranged attacks.
Touch Spells in Combat: "You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll."
Of course, this rule is about ranged touch attacks caused by spells, not thrown weapons or bombs. But considering that you can hit a square with a DC 5 check, it isnt too much to assume that a standing ally willing to recieve a potion/flask on their head should be more difficult than a DC 10 plus distance modifiers, if deflection modifiers should apply is left at GM's discretion (which should consider that there is no "harm" on this attack).
2) No. The ability replaces your bomb damage (which includes the int mod) by the potion/extract values, so you deal damage equal to the same amount you would have healed if the creature wasn't undead. Also, the ability does not mention that your bombs become splash weapons.
3) One, a will save to reduce the damage by half.
4) It's important to note that the healing bomb is not exactly the same as the bomb, it replaces the "damage" text with the following:
A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb
So, an undead targeted by a healing bomb would suffer the same damage and save against the same DC as they would if they had drank this potion.
The DC is based on the caster level of the item, which is usually the minimum level and ability score necessary to create the item. For a CLW potion, that would be CL 1 and ability score 11 (minimum to cast a 1st level spell), or DC 11.
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Let's see if i can answer.
1) It's a ranged touch attack, if you let them know about it before throwing it (they know you are trying to heal them), then you don't even need to make a check. Touching an ally in combat makes no distinction between melee or ranged attacks.
Touch Spells in Combat: "You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll."Of course, this rule is about ranged touch attacks caused by spells, not thrown weapons or bombs. But considering that you can hit a square with a DC 5 check, it isnt too much to assume that a standing ally willing to recieve a potion/flask on their head should be more difficult than a DC 10 plus distance modifiers, if deflection modifiers should apply is left at GM's discretion (which should consider that there is no "harm" on this attack).
2) No. The ability replaces your bomb damage (which includes the int mod) by the potion/extract values, so you deal damage equal to the same amount you would have healed if the creature wasn't undead. Also, the ability does not mention that your bombs become splash weapons.
3) One, a will save to reduce the damage by half.
4) It's important to note that the healing bomb is not exactly the same as the bomb, it replaces the "damage" text with the following:
A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bombSo, an undead targeted by a healing bomb would suffer the same damage and save against the same DC as they would if they had drank this potion.
The DC is based on the caster level of the item, which is usually the minimum level and ability score necessary to create the item. For a CLW potion, that would be CL 1 and ability score 11 (minimum to cast a 1st level spell), or DC 11.
Most GMs I have played for distinguish between a Touch and a Ranged Touch. So expect YMMV on this one (check with your GM). (Even the spells section deals with them under a different bolded title/paragraph).
And we actually can't " hit a square with a DC 5 check,...". The rule you are thinking (the second paragraph of "Thrown Splash Weapons" from the CRB-Combat says... "You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5..."
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
So the trade off is a ranged attack vs. AC5 gives no chance of a direct hit, and a smaller "burst" area - 4 squares vs. 9 squares normally.
Original question #2 was "2) Do I count my INT in the splash damage to the undead?"
Reply was: "2) No. The ability replaces your bomb damage (which includes the int mod) by the potion/extract values, so you deal damage equal to the same amount you would have healed if the creature wasn't undead. Also, the ability does not mention that your bombs become splash weapons."
So a Potion of CLW would heal (or inflict on undead) 1d8+1 hp on a direct hit and the splash damage (which was what the question was actually about) would heal (or inflict on undead) 2 hp. (unless they make the save/saves).
Original question #3 was "3) Do the Undead get 1 or 2 Saves? And what type of saves? Will or Reflex or Both? "
reply was: "3) One, a will save to reduce the damage by half."
Follow-up on #3) Normally the splash damage from a alchemists bomb would give a Reflex Save for Half damage, why does this not apply for a Healing Bomb?
Original question #4 was "4) If I used a Potion for the Healing Bomb, how do I calculate the DC for the Save/Saves? From my Bomb DC? or from the Potion DC? or from Both (Reflex for my Bomb DC, and Will for the Potion)?"
Reply was "4) It's important to note that the healing bomb is not exactly the same as the bomb, it replaces the "damage" text with the following:
A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb
So, an undead targeted by a healing bomb would suffer the same damage and save against the same DC as they would if they had drank this potion.
The DC is based on the caster level of the item, which is usually the minimum level and ability score necessary to create the item. For a CLW potion, that would be CL 1 and ability score 11 (minimum to cast a 1st level spell), or DC 11."
Follow-up on #4) again the major part of the question deals with the Splash damage/healing, which would normally give a Reflex Save for Half damage.
Would a Potion of CMW heal (or inflict on undead) 2d8+3 hp on a direct hit and the splash damage (which was what the question was actually about) would heal (or inflict on undead) 5 hp. (unless they make the save/saves, with a Will save of DC13 for half, and maybe a Reflex for half again).
Healing is not damage.
It's Positive Energy damage :^)
"When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it heal damage instead of dealing it. Creating a healing bomb requires the alchemist to expend an infused extract or potion containing a cure spell. A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb. Creatures in the splash radius are healed for the minimum amount of damage the cure spell is capable of healing. A healing bomb damages undead instead of healing them."
"When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict cold damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a frost bomb are staggered on their next turn unless they succeed on a Fortitude save."
These function the same way. Healing bombs heal in their splash area. Meaning they heal for the minimum amount of damage that would happen ((alchemist_level + 1) //2) + int_mod.
Want to make things interesting? Be a Gnome Saboteur (Alchemist) combine explosive bomb and healing bomb. What happens then?
Bombs can't crit because they don't have a crit multiplier, however you can take an extract that allows you to double the damage but requires you to hit the target.
I also don't recommend using an extract on healing bombs -- use a potion that you craft with brew potion instead. You can do a lot more with your extracts than ((alchemist_level + 1)// 2)D6 + int_mod of healing. I mean alchemists basically have the largest spell book. *points at stolen wizards book* See this is mine!
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Bombs can't crit because they don't have a crit multiplier
I'm not sure on the rest, but this can't be right. The description for the Bomb ability states about the bonus damage dice you get every two levels "this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit", meaning that yes, bombs absolutely do crit.
Not only that, but the Grenadier archetype has the Staggering Blast ability that triggers whenever a critical hit is scored. So, I'm reasonably certain that you just go with the standard crit of 20/x2, but only 1d6+Int modifier actually get doubled.|
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I'm sorry, I guess I need to repeat the questions I was asking about...
1a) Does a living creature in the splash area HAVE to take a save, or can they "voluntarily fail" it?
1b) Does a target HAVE to count their DEX at part of their touch AC? (and related, can they count themselves as having less DEX? Say a DEX of zero for that "attack"?)
2) Does the Alchemist count their INT in the "splash damage" effect on Undead?
3a) Do Undead that get splashed get 1 or 2 Saves? And what type of save/saves? If only one is it Will or Reflex?
3b) Do Undead that gets hit get a Will save vs. the Extract/Potion? What is the DC calculated from?
4) If a Potion is used for the Healing Bomb, how do we calculate the DC for the Save/Saves? From the normal Bomb DC? or from the Potion DC? or from Both (Reflex for the Bomb DC, and Will for the Potion)?
5a) Can this "bomb" Crit? (if used for healing or if used for damage vs. undead?)
5b) If it can Crit, what's the damage if the attack scored a Crit? Would it double all the damage dice done, or just do an additional 1d6 (which is what a normal bomb would do)? For exp: Cure Moderate Wounds extract is used to damage undead so it does 2d8+LVL (and maybe +INT), but a critical hit is confirmed, so it does...
a) 4d8+(2xLVL) + (maybe 2xINT?)
b) 2d8+(LVL) + 1d6 + (maybe 2xINT?)
Hi Aka450, welcome.
It looks like there wasn't much consensus on how this works, but let's assume all you get is the base healing from the potion/extract you use (no +INT damage).
The advantage is that you can stand all your allies next to one another and use a single potion (let's say Cure Moderate Wounds) to heal all of them at once - on ally gets the full healing from the potion (2d8+3hp) while the others get the minimum healing from the pption (5hp). If you manage to heal 3 extra party members with this you've added 9hp worth of healing for the cost of a bomb.
The other advantage is that you can potentially throw a bomb that damages undead enemies and heals your allies at the same time. Let's say you use Cure Moderate Wounds again, you throw it at a zombie and it takes 2d8+3 damage, the skeleton next to the zombie takes 5 damage and the Fighter standing up front is healed for 5hp. Even though the numbers aren't especially exciting this it's pretty great to heal your allies while damaging enemies.
If you were to use potions of Cure Serious Wounds and Fast Bombs you could potentially throw up to 5 bombs at level 8 and if each is a Healing Bomb that means you could potentially heal your ally 15d8+25hp, while dealing 40 damage to all enemies surrounding that ally (or damage an enemy 15d8+25 while healing allies 40hp, etc etc). That obviously wouldn't be something you could do often, but if needed it would be a pretty clutch round.
I don't know how this should be ruled, but since it doesn't look like it's clear your best bet would be to talk to your GM about it before you take the doscovery.
My personal take is that you would get to add your INT modifier when damaging enemies, but not when healing allies (eg. a CMW potion healing bomb would deal 2d8+3+INT to the Zombie you hit directly, 5+INT damage to the Skeleton hit by the splash damage, and heal 5hp to the Fighter who was hit by the splash). I would also probably rule that the Zombie directly hit would get a will save to resist the damage, and that creatures caught in the splash radius would get a will save instead of a reflex save to resist as well (which keeps ot in line with other Positive Energy effects like the Cure spells and Channel Energy).
Second what is the idea of this discovery. You have to spend a discovery which you get one every two lvl and then to use it you need to spend a bomb + a spell and not be able to add your feat to it, which you would add to any throwing object with splash. The price seem very high for not much.
Welcome indeed Aka450. Mr. Charisma did a pretty good job answering your questions. Just to clarify, the reason why Throw Anything doesn't apply to a healing bomb discovery is because healing is not equivalent to negative damage. Effects that increase damage whether that or point blank shot, do not affect healing.
You would need an effect that enhances healing like maximize spell metamagic. You can in fact get that ability and apply it to your healing bombs if you are of the brewkeeper prestige class.
my group came to the agreement that it does add the int bonus to the heal because healing spells deal positive damage, which heals living and damages undead.
when you throw a cure light wounds bomb it does 1d8+cl positive damage to everyone in the radius. just because living people are healed by it doesn't negate the fact is is positive energy damage.
Your group is welcome to come to whatever conclusion makes them happier, but that is decidedly NOT how it works.
Cure light wounds:
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
Cure spells channel positive energy that restores hit points. They do NOT deal positive damage in order to heal living targets.
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Obviously, all the talk of positive energy and damaging undead makes us queasy, but we still want to support the repeated Thead Necromancy.
Thread Necromancy is a type of Necromancy, and all Necromancy is good.
