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Organized Play Member. 3,236 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Organized Play characters.


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Played November 10 & 11, 2018


12 Kuthona 4707

Based on the information Longtooth gave us, we determined that we should seek out the wyvern cave after a short respite.

My Overland Flight ability came in especially handy during this adventure, as I cannot deign to climb. One becomes quite sweaty when exerting that much energy, and it affects the drape of one's robe. Unfortunately, my peer land-bound companions were forced to climb a rope to get to and from the cave, and it was because of this clumsy device that the wyverns detected our presence. After Mudder was poisoned and Tordag was grappled, we slew the wyverns and discovered that Orgluk has a handy skill – he can pick locks. Where on Golarion would a half-orc with his fighting skill have picked up that ability? I am still not sure I trust him.

After we cleaned out the wyvern cavern, we came upon a tryly disturbing amalgamation of vermin writhing and pulsating in the cave above. Amid the conflux of six- and eight-legged bodies, we found three undead giant spiders. Within their unholy carcasses they carried thousands of smaller arachnids that clambered out onto those who stood nearby.

Upon further examination of the vermin cave, Mudder discovered a secret crevasse. When we followed the path, Mudder noticed some tracks. With his remarkable powers of observation, he noted that these tracks belong to a species of being called Red Caps. The most he could tell us about them was that they're fey creatures. They were annoyingly difficult to deal with. Orgluk discovered that his cold iron morningstar seemed to be the most effective weapon in our arsenal. One of the little miscreants managed to sneak past Digger and attack me with his scythe. Consequently, we also learned Magic Missiles are effective against them.

Feckless peabrains.

We continued our exploration of the underground cave network and found a single, angry kobold who was in possession of a very nice necklace of fireballs. How I wish we had possessed that for the vermin cave. Fortunately, she was not able to use it on us. I am so curious about this solitary kobold by herself in these caves. But alas, she is no longer alive to tell us her story.

Our continued exploration of the cave system led us to discover the giants' tannery and their forge. In the tannery, three ogres were employed in the smelly work of making leather. My dwarven companions were thrilled to discover some of their mortal enemies in the cavern system, and Orgluk is beginning to understand the depth of their hatred for giantkind.

In the forge room, we noticed the giants had enslaved a group of five dwarves to run the bellows. After my compatriots slew the giants working in the room and we were discussing where we could keep these dwarves safe, Digger started growling. Because of his bond with Mudder, he was able to alert Mudder to a presence in the hallway. Consequently, Mudder discovered a female stone giant hiding.

The giant requested we follow her; Tordag, being the only one among us who speaks giant, learned that she was willing to help us sneak into the giants' compound. Against our better judgment, we agreed to go, simply because Tordag trusted in her sincerity.

When she sneaked us in to a safe location, Kona (that was her name), told us Mokmurian murdered her husband when he took over their clan, and she has concerns that his leadership will be the end of their kind and their culture. When pressed, she indicated that Mokmurian is dabbling in something ancient; she mentioned the name Karzoug. Based on our knowledge from Broddert Quink, we know Karzoug is a Runelord.

Kona was previously matriarch of her tribe, and we negotiated with her for as safe a passage as we can get in exchange for keeping the dwarf captives save and working to defeat Mokmurian.

She warned us that we would encounter some trolls on our path and a particularly evil hill giant. The warnings were appreciated as they allowed us to discuss what we knew about trolls in preparation for fighting them.

The trolls were essentially sentries to an area that spiraled down deep into the ground. When we emerged from our descent, Mudder and Tordag noticed that the stone chamber was unnaturally made – similar to the area beneath Sandpoint.

In the first open space we came to, we came upon a horribly misshapen hill giant. Because of my Hold Monster spell, my colleagues were able to quickly dispatch of him. As we moved into the room, things began happening to us. Both Mudder and I became small, and Orgluk and Digger were both nauseated! Before we even had time to process what was happening to us, some mysterious creature – made mostly of metal and belching molten metal and fire – emerged from the wall and vomited a scorching mess of melted metal onto Tordag. Then it disappeared back into the wall before we could do much damage to it.

As we proceeded farther into the chambers, we discovered something Tordag called a stone golem. He said it had damage resistance, which made it difficult to kill. In the center of the room stood a cauldron. Tordag said it was used to make misshapen giants like the one we encountered in the front room. It exuded evil, and he warned us to stay well away from the noxious mixture.

In another room in the underground complex, my Halt Undead spell came in handy. Four undead hill giants and an undead, headless ogre were lurking. The ogre was particularly greusome, but fortunately, he was one of the creatures that was held with the spell.

We also encountered a room containing three lizard/dog-like creatures. They were invisible when we first moved into the room, but Tordag case an invisibility purge so that we could see the beasties. They were devilishly quick, and they had terrible gaze weapons. These were the final creatures before Mokmurian's lair.

When we finally met with Mokmurian, his chamber was encased in fog. Tordag dismissed it, and we observed Mokmurian, a stone giant, standing atop a 20 foot dias.

Tordag, in a moment of truly brilliant thinking, case Silence on himself and dimension hopped next to Mokmurian so that he could not cast any spells with verbal components. That was particularly helpful in stifling Mokmurian's fearsome spell-casting abilities. By this point in our day, many of our talents and abilities had been expended, but I had one fortunate trick up my sleeve: a wand of Enervation we had recovered from a previous battle. Between Tordag's Silence and the negative levels from Enervation, our party was finally able to eek out a victory over our foe.

Because of a strange occurrence just before Mokmurian's demise, I question just how much of a role we played in his death.

Shortly before he finally died, Mokmurian pulled out a scroll and began casting Limited Wish in an attempt to teleport himself. Before the spell's completion, however, his body contorted and his neck snapped. From his lifeless maw came a disembodied voice reminiscent of the one we heard in Thistle Top. It was the voice of Karzoug, ridiculing us as the heroes of the age and belittling our ability to defeat him. He spoke of his rise and of that of the armies of Xin-Shalast and how the slain giants marked with the Sihedron were hastening his arrival.

If that is the case, perhaps it is a good thing that we did not enter the tower via the throng of giant armies outside. There would have been many more slain giants.

Upon his person, Mokmurian carried a key to a set of double doors we hadn't yet tried to open. Behind those doors lay a vast, ancient library. Broddert Quink would be a fortunate scholar indeed to visit these many tomes. Perhaps someday we will bring him here. At least he's never married, so his disappearance into the books won't cause his wife any consternation.

Inside of the library was also the first helpful construct we had encountered. The librarian aided us in locating several volumes that contained answers to our questions about the time of the Runelords.

Tordag has given me the notes from his studies, and I have included them here to keep them safe. We still have more questions, but the hour is late (early? We have been underground so long I have no idea of the time of day), and we are all in need of some well-deserved rest. Because none of Mokmurian's minions yet know that he is dead, we have decided to rest here behind the locked door of the library. Tomorrow, we shall continue our research.

One final note before I retire: Mokmurian was also in possession of a map that marks the cities of Sandpoint, Magnimar, and Riddleport as places of interest. They all contain “Hellstorm Flume” ruins. Who would have thought they sleepy little town of Sandpoint was once a part of an ancient feud between Runelords?


It was nice to get back at it! This was the first time we've played since the arrival of our tiny human (1/2 dwarf, 1/4 elf, 1/4 human), so we had to work around her schedule a bit. A 6-month old cares not for the plans of her parents. But things went pretty smoothly playing-wise. The battles got a bit rough. We did this whole bit in one day in-game, so we were pretty close to tapped when we got to the battle with Mokmurian. We got beaten down pretty hard a couple of times. The Silence spell and Elsbeth critting with her wand of Enervation really made the difference in the battle. It also didn't hurt that Mokmurian rolled horribly on a couple big saving throws and caster checks (against Hold Monster and to cast defensively). Poor Mudder wasn't getting any help from his dice. Despite changing out a few times, he kept rolling single digits on his d20s when attacking (and often below 5). Fortunately, that rubbed off on Hangar who blew some pretty big saves (a couple Hold Monsters and the Halt Undead that was mentioned in the journal).

Getting into higher level play has been interesting. Most of our campaigns haven't reached this point or were wrapping up when we got here (~ level 13). So it's exciting that we're just really diving into things now that we're getting to be pretty powerful.

ETA: Steel Soul is a fantastic feat and every dwarf character should seriously consider picking it up.

Happy gaming!

Played March 25, 2018

22 Neth 4707

This past week has been a whirlwind of activity. The town of Sandpoint generously donated the funding for Tordag to raise our dear friend Mudder in addition to a little extra for our effort.

We traveled to Magnimar (via Tordag's divine Teleportation ability) to update the Lord-Mayor of the danger in the region and upgrade our supplies. While in Magnimar, Melda informed us of her increasing restlessness and desire to travel again on her own, and it was with great sadness that we saw Melda and Ascarthia off on their way. I can only hope that we will meet up with them again someday; I have become quite fond of our elven companion and her beautiful eidolon.

Our meeting with the Lord-Mayor proved to be both frustrating and awkward. Not only did he sign off on a letter of marque essentially taking credit for our actions in Sandpoint, he also foisted upon us a new companion.

I don't like him

His name is Orgluk, and his physical appearance is about as cumbersome and uncomfortable as his name sounds. He is clearly some version of half-orc, with sickly green skin and an unkempt attempt at a ponytail. Standing next to my distinguished-looking dwarven companions, he clearly doesn't fit with our group.

And he speaks in 3rd person.

I don't like him.

Another interesting observation about our new companion is that he carries no range weapons that we can see. I don't know what that means.

I don't like him.

Regardless, with us he travels.

Tonight, we stayed at an inn along the way to Sandpoint. I am a little saddle weary and miss the convenience of teleportation, but my companions assure me we will be able to warn more people of the impending dangers that await them if we travel this way.


23 Neth 4707

We are back in Sandpoint tonight. Orgluk didn't try to kill us in our sleep. Amiko was pleased to see us and was appreciative of the gift boar Mudder and Orgluk delivered. Unfortunately, Mudder is back to his preference for not bathing.

It only took dying to get him fully clean for a brief period of time.


24 Neth 4707

This morning, we took Orgluk to visit the lighthouse, and Mudder gave him the rundown of our encounters with these strange sihedrons. Orgluk seemed a bit overwhelmed.

Another note about our new companion - he emerged from his room this morning completely clean.

This updating of the journal by firelight in the great outdoors is a nuisance. I may need to wait until we have proper lodging again.


29 Neth 4707

Our travels have been relatively uneventful thus far, save for an encounter with a pack of wild fire cougars and three ogres who have apparently been raiding some small farms in the region. My companions slew two of them, and I charmed one.

We now have an ogre friend. His name is Blorax. He is quite stupid.

We rest this evening in Galduria and will set off again in the morning. Fortunately, we were able to meet up with Old Maurice, the gentleman whose homestead had been invaded by ogres. We let him know that we were able to save three of his five cows, and we repaired his broken fence. We also left him with some fire cougar pelts to make up the cost of his two missing cows. We'll plan to meet with him again in the morning to safely exchange the cows - I think he may be alarmed by Blorax.


30 Neth 4707

We traveled to Wolf's Ear today, in part because it was along our way, an din part because we were hoping to meet up with Margaret, the tanner from Galduria. The innkeep in Galduria mentioned that Margaret had been in raving about giants, but so far we haven't connected with him. It's curious - we would've expected to see him by now. Perhaps it's nothing to worry about. Regardless, Tordag is considering doing some scrying to check in on his whereabouts in the morning.


3 Kuthona 4707

We arrived in Ravenmoor today, which was good timing. The weather has become quite chilly, and my ill-prepared companions needed to purchase some cold weather gear.

Yesterday, we discovered the remnants of a misfortunate hunting party. It appears a stone giant raiding party crushed them to death. Today, we were able to let the townsfolk know of the missing hunting party. Each town in which we stop along the way has the same sad story of missing hunters and travelers. These poor people.


5 Kuthona 4707

Even though we are still out and about in the wilderness, today was a fairly eventful day. We came to the Storval Stairs and discovered a party of hill giants.

The encounter was rather entertaining, and Orgluk is proving to be quite a good fighter.

First, we were able to surprise the sentry since we were all invisible. Orgluk, in a good learning opportunity, discovered that hill giants aren't ogres, and they can't be body-checked.

The Confusion spell proved to be helpful during this battle, as apparently hill giants aren't very smart. Between the bloodbath that Mudder and Orgluk unleashed on the giants and a well-timed Magic Missile, the battle ended pretty quickly. My dwarven companions were quite pleased, not only with the deaths of so many of their mortal foes, but also with the recovery of the Lost Crown of the Pallgreeves Clan - a long-missing dwarven relic. They claim it will bring a healthy reward with its return.


11 Kuthona 4707

As the days have progressed, it is clear we have been on the right route toward the giant's base. We have come across more patrols in the region - patrols that won't return to report. Each have been marked with the sihedron.

Tonight, finally, as we were getting ready to camp, we made an interesting discovery - a dark tower surrounded by lookout towers and what appears to be an army of giants surrounding the base. This is Jorgenfist.

Mudder's remarkable powers of observation have allowed him to see a strange, large case entrance off to the east that appears to be about 400 feet off the valley floor.

Additionally, he saw rocs perched atop some sort of nest in the center of the tower compound. There wasn't much he knew about them - just that they were very large birds.

The tower compound is in an excellent defensible position. With the wide valley floor laid out to three sides and a sheer cliff that descends 200 feet to the river below, it would be difficult indeed to approach unseen.

We decided this evening to teleport to the cave on the cliffside and discovered Longtooth, the fire dragon that worked with Mokmurian to assault Sandpoint. The dragon wanted to negotiate with us, and I greatly struggled with this. While I have no desire to allow this enemy to go unpunished, I understand the value of the information he could provide to us. Ultimately, the pragmatic approach won out and we agreed to let him live in exchange for his information and whatever aid he could provide in the coming battle. Oh yes, and 3/7 of the treasure we acquire on this particular mission.

I am reluctant to admit it, but I do believe his information was helpful. He told us about two potential entrances to the tower complex that are hidden into the cliffside. One cave holds three wyverns The other holds insects and spiders and an assortment of other creepy-crawly things. Longtooth did not know much about this entrance. Additionally, from this vantage point we were able to see a pit in the center of the tower complex. This would be another way to enter if we could figure out how to descend into it undetected. Longtooth also told us that there are two other red dragons he helped capture that are now under the care of two lamia matriarchs.

Longtooth told us the rocs were trained specifically to scout for creatures that were not giant sized, and that three harpies sit on top of the gate of the black tower, guarding whatever lies inside. They hold no allegiance to Mokmurian and were roosting there before his arrival. He was also able to provide us with information regarding the numbers of giants (and the tribes and clans from which they came) that are encamped outside the tower complex walls. Interestingly enough, they are not inside those walls, so if we can bypass them altogether, that may help us to reserve some of our strength for the challenges that lie in wait inside those walls.

On a final note, Longtooth was also able to give us a brief history of Mokmurian, the giant leader who has betrayed him. Apparently, he's a very powerful magic user. It should be interesting to meet him.

It's obviously been awhile since we've played (waaaay too long!) and we had a minor party change due to one of the players deciding to leave the campaign. But a friend who's played with Tordag's and Elsbeth's player jumped in as Orgluk. Regardless, it was fun to get back into some familiar characters and find out a little bit more about Mokmurian and his evil schemes! RotRL is definitely an interesting story and a fun campaign to play. And Hangar is doing a really nice job of leading us through it.

Also, Tordag's and Elsbeth's IRL avatars are having an offspring here within about 3 weeks (1/2 dwarf 1/4 elf 1/4 human? Weird.). So I imagine that should make it easier for us to get together more regularly ... right?

Happy gaming!

Yup. Silence on the Deaf Oracle, who then casts Grace and proceeds to get up close and personal with the enemy spellcaster.

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Once you activate a weapon's property, you don't have to deactivate it. When you sheath your flaming longsword, the next time you draw it, it will still be flaming. So that helps with some of the time issue.

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I think they haven't gone back to it because it's a one weapon corner case, meaning it's likely not high on the priority list.

Claxon wrote:
Yure wrote:
Perhaps, I would think that 10d6 per round puts the rogue on par with other classes.

If it was 10d6 on 4 or 5 attacks each, then you'd be in the right ballpark.

Remember, Inquisitor's get grater bane. With archery, they can have 6 attacks with bane in a round. That's 24d6 just from bane. That's not including strength bonus to damage, weapon damage, judgments, or any other various buffs.

10d6 at level 20 is "you might as well sit this out chief".

Hell, a straight fighter geared towards archery (or really anything, honestly) at level 20 probably has at or close to a +35 to damage just from static bonuses on every attack (likely more). Just off the top of my head (Weapon Training & Gloves, STR, Enhancement, Weapon Spec. & Greater, and Deadly Aim) I'm at +34 and I haven't even tried optimizing yet. Plus, the fighter is auto-confirming crits at x4 damage with all the bonuses from crit feats stacked on there.

And fighters aren't even close to the best archer builds.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
A Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 3 would cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer, but would not get the draconic/abyssal heritage die until it takes 2 more levels of sorcerer (or 3 levels of evangelist).

Not to be a nit-picker, but in order to be a Sorc/DD, the character must have selected the Draconic Bloodline as a Sorc. And DD levels stack with Sorc levels for determining bloodline powers.

Other than that, everything else is correct. Prestige Classes don't generally advance anything other than the spellcasting aspects of the base class unless specifically told otherwise.

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Magic wrote:
A small number of spells (arcane mark, limited wish, permanency, prestidigitation, and wish) are universal, belonging to no school.
Wizard wrote:
A wizard that does not select a school receives the universalist school instead.

While the Wizard entry does call "Universalist" a school, it was likely a poor choice of words. "Universal" is not a school of magic. It is a placeholder for a very limited number of spells that do not fall into a specific school of magic. If you do not choose a school, you default to a "Universalist". If a spell is "universal", it does not belong to a school. Ergo, "Universal" is not an actual school of magic that can be chosen as an opposition school.

I'm aware of the ability's wording. I'm referencing game design decisions made off screen. This creature undoubtedly has that ability in no insignificant part because that's its only attack.

And saying 1.5 STR gets added Power Attack damage (you know, because you're swinging harder...) but 2.0 STR doesn't because PA doesn't reference abilities that didn't exist when it was written 15+ years ago borders on asinine. It is the epitome of elevating form over substance and violates the Common Sense Directive we're instructed to use when reading the rules, in that we're supposed to use it, not eschew it.

ETA: Also, 2 is both greater and greater than or equal to 1.5. So I'm not sure where you're going with that.

Yup. Your game, you decide. I think it's allowable, anyway. But even if you're not sure, if you don't think it's a problem (and it shouldn't cause issues at all - not a particularly strong ability) and the players are excited about it, go for it.

Any weapon you wield. I can see room for disagreement, but I'm not going to restrict it. I see no reason it can't be an UAS or a natural weapon. It's not like it'd be super OP or anything.

Firebug wrote:

To put a hypothetical to some of you, if the Crimson Whale had another set of natural attacks (say a level of sorcerer and bloodline claws), then do you switch sides to 2:1 power attack increment? The reason I ask, is it would no longer trip the 1-1/2 clause for a single natural attack. This is the difference between the non stacking argument (Diego) and the incremental argument(Dreklord).

I am still using binary logic, so I haven't been convinced yet, but I am curious about other views, of course.

I wouldn't, no. 2xSTR > 1.5 STR, so it still triggers PA. It's nonsensical otherwise and we're not supposed to read the rules nonsensically.

That creature has an ability that applies 2xSTR to its bite. Of course, a large part of that is due to the fact that it is its only attack, so you're actually changing a lot more than is initially apparent by adding natural attacks to the creature. Regardless, if you were to advance the creature in this way, and decide that its powerful bite still applies the same way, yes it gets the larger PA bonus.

Snowlilly wrote:
The original value is irrelevant. The damage dealt uses a strength modifier =/= x1.5

Incorrect. Derklord cited the FAQ that made explicit what everyone else above explained.

Firebug wrote:

Funnily enough, we have 2 conflicting FAQs for a similar subject (# hands and power attack). And they are on the same FAQ page. And posted 2 months apart.

For Increased Power Attack wrote:

Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?

Against Increased Power Attack wrote:

Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand: When a feat or other special ability says to treat a weapon that is normally wielded in two hands as a one handed weapon, does it get treated as one or two handed weapon for the purposes of how to apply the Strength modifier or the Power Attack feat?

If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
Guess we should FAQ the FAQ and hope they clear it up.

Those aren't contradictory. One answers what happens when you're allowed to wield a THW in one hand, but it stays a THW (it's thus far a class of one: Lance while mounted). The other answers what happens when you're allowed to wield a THW "as a OHW". Not the same thing. A lance is never wielded "as a OHW".

wraithstrike wrote:
Saying they don't stack is just like when some people try to say you can't put the flaming and frost properties on the same weapon. It is 100% legal, even if it doesn't make sense to some people.

This analogy, it is a good one. That is all.

Carry on.

Thanks Jeraa. That was what I read, too. But I couldn't remember if a FAQ had come out tweaking things (like the temporary bonus one).

I thought penalties didn't actually reduce the ability score. Or am I misremembering that rule/FAQ?

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Ridiculon wrote:
It's the difference between throwing a piece of 8x10 off a roof (feather fall) and throwing a paper airplane off a roof (grippli glider). The paper airplane impacts with more force than the unfolded sheet.

Right. But we're comparing dropping a wadded up paper to a paper airplane, not an unfolded sheet. Nobody is saying the Glider will do no damage; they're saying it'll do less.

And I was just commenting on you saying the rates of fall are the same even with the trait. Yes, technically true. But clearly it's not the intent for the Glider to hit with the same force. Because, as I mentioned, if we draw out your real-world analogy, the Glider should be hitting harder because not only is the Glider falling at the same rate, but traveling horizontally, too. Higher rate of speed, more momentum. More momentum means bigger impact with the target. Obviously, nobody is arguing for that. So clearly we shouldn't be pedantic with our physics application in this particular instance. If you're gliding, you shouldn't do as much damage as if you were not, despite the fact that you're technically falling at the same rate (and actually traveling faster).

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Well, I mean if we want to get technical about it, the way the ability is written means the Grippli would be travelling faster than a person who simply fell the same distance. But that doesn't really seem like the intent behind the ability. Call this one of those corner areas where PF rules don't strictly adhere to how the same real-world scenario would play out and make a judgment call.

The point of the trait is for the Grippli to reduce the impact of the fall. Thus, the impact transferred to the target should, likewise, be reduced.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
If somebody wants to guarantee accessibility of healing in a pick-up game, they should play a character that gets access to healing. Being disappointed because someone else also isn't playing the type of character you're not seems silly.
We were all pretty disappointed that game. It wasn't just directed at me. Not having a healer was a big mistake. The few characters with UMD kept rolling really badly. I think I even got blinded, as the curse, at some point in that session. We just all rolled really badly all game.

Oh I've been there. That always sucks when it feels like the dice gods have it out for you.

I just wanted to comment on the expectations part. People shouldn't ever have to feel like they get stuck playing Healbot 2.0. If someone want to play a dedicated healer, go for it! There's definitely a role to fill and there are some interesting builds and character ideas to that end. But just because the other party members decided they want to play something different shouldn't obligate a person to fill a role nobody else did (I'm not trying to suggest this is what you were arguing for, by the way).

And even if you play a class traditionally associated with one particular role doesn't mean you have to excel at filling that role, either. It's up to the party to find creative ways to fill the void, if one exists.

Most of the time (especially at low levels), you're generally better sticking to just the natural attacks without the manufactured ones. Three full BAB attacks all at full STR are usually going to out-perform two at -2 with one at full STR and three at -5 at half STR.

On your target AC of 14, you're hitting those three on an 8, as opposed to two on a 10 and three on a 13. I like natural weapon builds. They're fun. Very strong at low levels. Decent enough at low-mid levels. They fall off after that. But still, I like them.


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If somebody wants to guarantee accessibility of healing in a pick-up game, they should play a character that gets access to healing. Being disappointed because someone else also isn't playing the type of character you're not seems silly.

Ascalaphus wrote:
I think there's quite a few prerequisites for prestige classes worded as "feat: proficiency in X" that wouldn't work as intended if you decided that classes gained "proficiency in X" instead of "feat: proficiency in X".

I haven't looked through all of them, but I skimmed a few and it appears to me that proficiencies are called out differently. The armor ones tend to say "Special: Proficiency in [x]" (e.g., Stalwart Defender) or "Armor Proficiency: Must be proficient with [x]" (e.g., Celestial Knight), and the weapons ones usually say "Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with [x]" (e.g., Eldritch Knight). I haven't yet found one that has the requirement listed under "Feats", nor have I found one that says "Must have the [x] Proficiency Feat".

That's not to say there might be some different wording out there, but from my quick look that would seem to be the exception (and enough of one for me to chalk it up to mistaken drafting on the part of the prestige class).

It doesn't matter if taking your hand off a weapon is a free action. If your hand isn't off the weapon, it isn't free to use with Deflect Arrows. And, barring explicit exceptions like speaking and limited others, you can't take free actions outside of your turn. That's why the Greatsword example doesn't work. Whether that should also be applicable to bows is perhaps a fair discussion. I'd allow it, but per the rules text quoted earlier, a GM would be perfectly within their right saying a bow uses two hands and Deflect Arrows isn't an option unless you specifically mention removing a hand at the end of your turn.

claudekennilol wrote:
I'm aware. It's my opinion that that's just an overzealous reaction that answered the question more than what's required. Until they actually errata the CRB to reflect that, it's incredibly clear that fighters do have those feats, they just can't be retrained.

Or it's a recognition that the feats were inappropriately worded to start with, since the class entries never make mention of the classes getting the feats.

That appears to be the understanding and recognition the game designers have. I'll side with them on this one.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed a derailing series of posts. If you'd like to discuss the content of an FAQ, please do so in a separate thread.

confused dog headtilt

The Underlying theory behind saying "no" to attacking at +6/+1 is that using two weapons must use the two weapon fighting mechanic, with associated penalties and handidness. the FAQ shows that this is not the case, and that two weapon fighting is only a mechanic used when you gain an extra attack. It's dead on topic.

Yeah, I'm not sure I see the issue here. The FAQ discussion directly related to the OP's question about the legality of a particular style of play.

CB is correct. I'd elaborate, but I'm on my phone.

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

The BAstard Sword is a bad case to use for analogies. It's a weird little monster.

Chess Pwn wrote:
I think only when the bite is primary do you get 1.5 str.


Scorpi wrote:
Hero Labs - which is normally 99.9% always accurate has the reach evolution only applying to the natural weapons of the Eidolon.

1. Necro! Re-kill it with fire!

Base Summoner Eidolon wrote:
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.

USummoner's entry is the same.

It doesn't say so, but I'd assume this is intended to be limited to natural attacks. "Manufactured Melee Weapons" isn't really "one of an Eidolon's attacks". Specifying a weapon would be silly, too. Besides, if you have Weapon Training, you can use a manufactured weapon with built-in reach. So I'm gonna say no, it's for natural weapons only.

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James Risner wrote:
Immunity to paralysis has absolutely nothing to do with immunity to unconsciousness.

Yup. The ability does two things on a failed save: cause paralysis, cause unconsciousness. The two are unrelated, except that they are caused by the same thing. Immunity to one is irrelevant to the other and vice versa.

You don't necessarily trigger a symbol by disabling it. Disable Device doesn't necessitate you touching the trap, or at least in a manner that would set it off.

And don't forget that you can be flanked by an invisible creature whose presence you're not even aware of!

As Ascalaphus said, the flanking rules aren't perfect. But they generally do a good enough job for what we need them to do. And you can always tweak them in a home game if there's something about them you don't like.

It's always nice to know or at least perhaps puzzle out why some design decisions are made. But also be prepared to accept "because that's how the designers chose to make it work" as an answer in some instances. "Game balance" is not infrequently a justification (though often not the only justification).

Whether you can wield two two-handed weapons in four hands is up in the air. I think it's fine for naturally four-armed creatures, and there's support for that in Bestiaries (but as noted above, most of those creatures have additional special abilities that allow for it specifically or make it much easier). However, you're using Vestigial Arms and based on the language of that ability, I'm going to give that a hard no. But the FAQ for that ability is kind of a mess, so enter at your own risk and make sure you and your GM are on the same page prior to actually attempting to go this route. If you're not trying to make use of extra attacks (just changing out which weapon is used during your iteratives), then you absolutely can do this and there are no penalties associated with it.

If you're trying to get attacks beyond what your BAB allows (in other words, making using of TWF or MWF for an extra attack), you cannot reassign your main hand once it has already acted. So no, you cannot switch around your hands to lessen penalties.

TWF likely isn't relevant. MWF would probably be the option. However (again), how that works isn't particularly clear in all cases so make sure you and your GM are on the same page. Some people allow MWF to simply substitute for TWF in pretty much any capacity (prereqs, etc.), others think that if you take MWF, you're limited to only that feat and can't take anything else that has TWF as a prereq.

As CB notes above, if you use a hand to attack, barring specific abilities otherwise, that hand is unavailable for granting an AC bonus from a shield. That's why you often see four-armed creatures wielding three weapons (or a two-handed weapon and a light weapon) and a shield in the fourth.

Azten wrote:
Still a handy trick for trolls.

... I see what you did there.

Chess Pwn wrote:
I believe if you do something that is a special full-attack, TWF, Flurry, multi-shot, rapid shot, etc. That you're locked into the full attack and can't convert. Because those things only work for a full-attack so you can't change your mind after 1 attack. For a normal full-attack, there isn't any difference between the attacks.

Technically, I believe this is correct (which is the best kind of correct!). When you full attack, you can benefit from the "deciding between" language. But if you use that full attack action to use a special ability, you've essentially already decided before you attack.

That being said, I've never had a problem with someone taking the penalties for TWF for instance, then changing course after the first attack resolves. Because at that point, it's all penalty and no benefit. For something like Manyshot, however, that wouldn't fly because you've already gotten the benefit.

It doesn't grant 10 extra feet on all movement; it grants 10 extra feet to all modes of movement. So your swim speed, ground speed, etc.

The Tyrant and I have had this discussion before. Suffice it to say I disagree. Boon Companion is of no benefit to single-class characters whose EDL equals character level, even if they have multiple pets.

In prior discussions that spell has come up. I don't think anybody puts much stock in it because it's a relic from 3.5 and unquestionably contradictory to the primary UAS entry that states UAS are not natural weapons. There's also the Bestiary entry for creatures without Natural Weapons - they can still make UAS.

The overwhelming weight of the evidence is that UAS are not Natural Weapons.

Side note: Power Attack doesn't effect weapons at all. Just like BAB doesn't effect weapons at all. They effect the person using the weapon, not the weapon itself. Contrast with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Magic Fang, etc.

Ravingdork wrote:

Yes, if you are using an axe, it would be slashing nonlethal damage. If you were using a hammer, it would be bludgeoning nonlethal damage. If you managed to get it on a bite, it would be bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing nonlethal damage.

It uses the same type as the weapon. You can even have nonlethal energy damage in rare instances (such as with brown mold).

Would merciful change the energy damage attached to the same weapon to nonlethal? So Sir Paddington's +3 Frosting Keen Flaming Burst Scythe of Mercy would all be nonlethal unless Merciful was suppressed, right?

Claxon wrote:
Derklord wrote:
@Claxon: That was errata'd in later versions of the CRB to say "divine spellcasters" instead of "clerics".
Which is hilarious since I copied it from the PRD.

That was what I looked at, too (which is why I asked).

Claxon wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Thought it was just Clerics who could leave slots open. Did I miss a change?
Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.

Technically speaking it only says clerics, but reading through the whole section to me it applies equally to all prepared divine spell casters.

In the same way that the wizard section only specifically mentions wizards, but should apply equally to all prepared arcane spell casters.

I suppose the difference is that in the CRB there were already other prepared Divine Casters and they specifically mentioned Clerics. Wizards were the only prepared arcane casters in the CRB, but more were added later.

Regardless, it appears there was an errata I didn't catch. So problem solved. Thanks, everybody!


Sounds like a really fun way to create a character!

Thought it was just Clerics who could leave slots open. Did I miss a change?

Since I don't see any reason they don't and shouldn't stack, I don't have an issue with them doing so.

Ridiculon wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:

To be clear:

Snakebite Striker wrote:
Sneak Attack (Ex): A snakebite striker can make a sneak attack, as per the rogue class feature of the same name.
Strangler wrote:
Strangle (Ex): At 1st level, a strangler deals 1d6 points of sneak attack damage (as per the rogue ability of the same name) [under conditions].

It says deal Sneak Attack as per the Rogue ability both times. So I don't see why they shouldn't each count as the Rogue ability. That's basically how the Weapon Training FAQ came out for Fighter archetypes (if it says it works like or satisfies the regular ability, then it does).

It calls the damage Sneak Attack, references the Rogue Ability Sneak Attack, and makes mention of the normal triggering function of the Rogue's Sneak Attack (flanking). It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and even has a name tag with Duck on it tied around its neck. Barring an explicit statement otherwise, I think it's safest to assume it's supposed to be a duck.

fretgod99, the Rogue sneak attack ability does not stack with itself. If you look at classes/archetypes like the Assassin or the Vivisectionist you'll see the wording that allows their sneak attack damage to stack with other sources (the Rogue ability doesn't have that wording).

This is a point from that other thread, i'm not trying to start a war but this is a valid point of RAW (talk to your GM to see if they agree)

EDIT: D'oh, Snakebite Striker totally has that wording, should be fine

And I've never bought into the idea that if you have 3d6 Sneak Attack from one source and 2d6 from another, you only get 3d6. Both trigger, both should apply. This isn't analogous to pools of Channel Energy. That type of limitation doesn't make any sense here.

Selvaxri wrote:

Strangle only lets you deal sneak attack during a grapple; Strangler allows you to apply your sneak attack damage during a grapple.

Normally, you wouldn't be able to deal Sneak Attack while grappling- only against foes denied their dex or flanking.

Snakebite Strike explicitly get the Sneak Attack ability; Strangle just says "deals ... sneak attack damage". The "as per" wording is just a clarification on what the damage is quantified as, in regards to immunities and what not.

Read the thread i posted. There's a whole debate on the interaction.
That's just my interpretation of the interactions. I would run the idea past your GM when trying a build with this combination as it's a rulings conundrum.

As far as I know, Strangler is the only class that can deal sneak attack damage without having the Sneak Attack ability.

U. Rogue: Sneak Attack
Sandman (Bard): Sneak Attack
Snakebite Striker (Brawler): Sneak Attack
Vivisectionist (Alchemist): Sneak Attack
Cult Leader (Warpriest): Sneak Attack

This is why I referenced the Fighter Weapon Training FAQ. It's pretty much the exact same scenario. If it calls the ability something else, but says it functions generally as the base ability, it counts as the base ability.

It says it works like Sneak Attack, so it counts as sneak attack, even though it is called something else.

To be clear:

Snakebite Striker wrote:
Sneak Attack (Ex): A snakebite striker can make a sneak attack, as per the rogue class feature of the same name.
Strangler wrote:
Strangle (Ex): At 1st level, a strangler deals 1d6 points of sneak attack damage (as per the rogue ability of the same name) [under conditions].

It says deal Sneak Attack as per the Rogue ability both times. So I don't see why they shouldn't each count as the Rogue ability. That's basically how the Weapon Training FAQ came out for Fighter archetypes (if it says it works like or satisfies the regular ability, then it does).

It calls the damage Sneak Attack, references the Rogue Ability Sneak Attack, and makes mention of the normal triggering function of the Rogue's Sneak Attack (flanking). It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and even has a name tag with Duck on it tied around its neck. Barring an explicit statement otherwise, I think it's safest to assume it's supposed to be a duck.

Selvaxri wrote:

Be warned, this combination could open a heated discussion.

I think the concensus reached is-
The Strangler archetype just gets bonus damage when grappling, and it being labelled as "sneak attack" in regards to creatures immune to sneak attack damage. This archetype doesn't grant the Sneak Attack ability and scaling die.
The Strangler feat requires the Sneak Attack ability to work, and just allows you to use your sneak attack die during a grapple.

IF Snakebite Striker archetype is stackable with the Strangler archetype, you could potentially deal 2d6 [1d6 Strangler (feat)/ +1d6 Strangle (Ex)] Sneak Attack during a grapple.

I don't see why Stranger archetype doesn't grant Sneak Attack. It calls it specifically that and explicitly mentions the ordinary Sneak Attack trigger (flanking). That it doesn't scale as regularly or at the same rate as most other classes that provide Sneak Attack is irrelevant.

I also don't see the problem (in theory - I haven't looked at what each replaces, etc.) with allowing Snakebite Striker's Sneak Attack to stack with Strangler's when grappling. You get +1d6 from each (plus scaling). But you only get both when you're grappling because otherwise the Strangler's Sneak Attack doesn't trigger.

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